Gods do not kill, people do. I do not think that there is any one religion, monotheistic, abrahamic, pagan... that can claim totally clean hands, that its followers have never shed blood, past or present ; unless they live in a far far galaxy ;o)

Your right no religion is totally innoccet but the God of the bible did kill those who refused to follow him I can't say that about other religions because the Roman Catholics wiped those out who opposed them. You may want to read some of the verses I posted before you say that God didn't kill.



Clovis where is the proof that Pagans killed others in worship to thier Gods? I am not saying that they didn't like I said before all records of them were pretty much wiped out. There are some records of the Celtcs killing people in some horrible ways for breaking thier laws.

How can we have freewill & then blame a mythical being for telling us to do things we know are not good? IF Satan has the powers that the bible & people says he does then wheres the freewill? Sounds like another double standard.

.............<<>> God does give freewill 'Norwood'. You were a Baptist and left. And became a Pagan. God didn't stop you. Isn't that freewill.....Joey

Strabo records that the Celts practiced auguries on the entrails of human victims: on some bog bodies, such as one of the Weerdinge Men found in southern Netherlands, the entrails have been partly drawn out through incisions.

At Woodhenge, a three-year-old child had its head sliced open with an axe and was buried in the center of the structure. This appears to be a foundation sacrifice, and similar bodies are found throughout the archeological records. There are also graves that contain several bodies, often one of an aged man, and several younger individuals, who bear marks of having been killed; these appear to be sacrifices to the dead man.

Purported ritual killing and human sacrifice were aspects of druidic culture that shocked classical writers.

Human sacrifice has sometimes been attributed to druidism. While this may be Roman propaganda, human sacrifice was an old European inheritance and the Gauls may have offered human sacrifices, whether of criminals or, to judge from Roman reports, of war captives.

In Knossos and dating to Minoan Crete, the bones of at least four children (who had been in good health) were found which bore signs that they were butchered in the same way the Minoans slaughtered their sheep and goats, suggesting that they had been sacrificed and eaten.

Carthage was notorious to its neighbors for child sacrifice. Plutarch (ca. 46–120 AD) mentions the practice, as do Tertullian, Orosius and Diodorus Siculus. Livy and Polybius do not. The Hebrew Bible also mentions what appears to be child sacrifice practiced at a place called the Tophet ("roasting place") by the Caananites, ancestors of the Carthaginians, and by some Israelites.

The earliest surviving reference to the term berserker is in Haraldskvæði, a skaldic poem composed by Thórbiörn Hornklofi in the late ninth century in honor of King Harald Fairhair, a famous ruler of Norway. The poem was preserved by Snorri Sturluson. In this poem, Harald's army includes a warrior gang of berserkers fighting under the name of the Norse god of war, Tyr, in the battle of Hafrsfjord. In it, they are described as Ulfheðnar ("men clad in wolf skins").

Similar behaviour is described in the Iliad, where warriors who are "possessed" by a god or goddess exhibit superhuman powers.

Some aspects of the Malay phenomenon of running amok bear a close resemblance to berserkergang.

Among the Irish, Cúchulainn acted in the 'battle frenzy', or 'contortion', and many other famous Irish warriors from the pre-Christian period became possessed and frenzied. They are described in texts such as The Tain as foaming at the mouth and not calming down after battle until doused with cold water.

No one have the freewill.. Norwould not sure. Past bad influence made him to take that choice.. Past sadan play.

Your right no religion is totally innoccet but the God of the bible did kill those who refused to follow him I can't say that about other religions because the Roman Catholics wiped those out who opposed them. You may want to read some of the verses I posted before you say that God didn't kill.



Clovis where is the proof that Pagans killed others in worship to thier Gods? I am not saying that they didn't like I said before all records of them were pretty much wiped out. There are some records of the Celtcs killing people in some horrible ways for breaking thier laws.

.............<<>>That sounds like a double standard to Me....................Joey.

.............<<>> 'Norwood' I think you have it wrong about the (Roman Catholic Church). The (Roman Catholic Church) tried to wipe out all the (Born Again Christian) that were birth out of the book of Acts. Because these true Christians would not convert to the (Roman Catholic Church). And a (Born Again Christian) in the past is still a (Born Again Christian) in our present time. Just as a Pagan from the past is still a Pagan in our present time. Time don't change (Nothing).
A leopard has its spots. And can't change His spots to stripes as a tiger. Because they are what they are................Joey.

Just a side thought I wonder how many of you would call it evil if say the Pagans had a book & our Gods killed as much as your God does in the bible....

...in the end it does not matter. Even those people who do not believe but continue to go to church or simply change religions...as long as they are good of heart they are good of heart. Hard to be good of heart though when you hate. I only speak from my own experiences about my own suspicions and hatred I had for one group of people...the United States and Americans for what I felt at one time like the destruction of our lands, the thieving of our lands, and the continued oppression of my people. I had to reconcile my hatred and racism and come to peace with both the great country I live in and my neighbors. There is one verse in the Bible that says from one blood God made all men. So that made me realize I could not continue to be racist and hate white people...especially when I have so much white blood within me myself.

Evil spawns from man.

the serpent in the bible is god he changed shape and convinced eve to take of the fruit of knowledge between good and evil. this is how he knew she ate it.

he then returned to judge them thus asking a question he knew the answer to.

they lied thus commiting their first real sin. this is the moment they "died" [loss of innocence] and this birthed shame and guilt which makes life feel crappier than is.
the fruit had no special properties it was just forbidden to test adam and eve.
and god doesnt punish us we do.


Evil is the tester of a man's soul
god wants us to overcome it so we may rejoin him as his peers not his children.

............<<>> I really think you should do a (Massive) study on the (Origin of the Pagan Culture). You might see your scales tipped more to your side then ours. Now I am going to ask you one more time as a Christian man (PLEASE) quit slamming our (God) and the people of (God). Thank You...........Joey.

So Catholics are not true Christians? Says who? Thats one heck of an assumption there so your a true Christian? By whos standards?


It was my choice to become a Pagan no one else.

Who's slamming? This is a DEBATE foum if you cannot handle having others talk about your belifes then you should not be here. Deal with it or don't it's your choice.Perhaps your lack the faith to debate yourself. I have no problem in someone saying anything about mine I more then enought faith to stand my ground.

............<<>> Now the works of the (FLESH) are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, adultery, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish, ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, and revelries. This Spirit belongs to somebody and it is not (Mine). Because this one is (Mine). (The Fruits of the Spirit) are love, joy peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I can take anything 'Norwood'. I would just like to see you be a little nicer about it. As I have told you in the past. If My God is for Me who can be against Me. And No weapon formed against Me shall prosper. And also Pretty shaky ground if you ask Me. I am going to sleep now. Good night......................Joey.

By whos standards? .............<<>> The (God of Heaven)...............Joey..

Im sure the millions of catholics worldwide would refute the suggestion that they were not Christian.

I have always wondered about the evil thins people do. I mean the horrible things some do has to come from true evil, but where does that evil really come from? As a christian I do believe satan (the devil) exist as the bible says is he the root of all evil or does true evil exist on its own?
Now I know people will say that some do evil and then blame the devil for their deeds as a way to escape responsibility but thats not what I am saying. I want to know your opinions on evil and where you think it comes from.
I believe the devil, satan is the truest form of evil but when it comes to satan having the power to make us evil or to commit evil I question that he has that kind of power.
So what are your thoughts or opinions?


Always a pleasure

Evil is a product of free will not God IMHO. God gave free will and people can decide what to do with it. Some can say well God is responsible for all of it but that is like a parent making a child, the parent could control the child, lock them up to insure the child never does evil and keep the child locked up so as an adult they would not do any evil, but normally the parent does not do that and if a child does grow up to be an adult serial killer it is not the parents fault but the person themselves. So it is with God, our free will and our choices our ours not His, that is the gift He gave us and we can use our free will for good or evil. We can even use it do no nothing at all.

Your right no religion is totally innoccet but the God of the bible did kill those who refused to follow him I can't say that about other religions because the Roman Catholics wiped those out who opposed them. You may want to read some of the verses I posted before you say that God didn't kill.



Clovis where is the proof that Pagans killed others in worship to thier Gods? I am not saying that they didn't like I said before all records of them were pretty much wiped out. There are some records of the Celtcs killing people in some horrible ways for breaking thier laws.

Not all religions were in contact with roman catholicism. I think the term "wiped out" is a tad too strong & too generalized. If catholics 'wiped out those who opposed them', there wouldn't be any protestants, orthodox christians, nor muslims, or jews...etc. left, don't you agree? In the same sentence you say the God of the bible killed those who refused him, but the catholics wiped them out, so who did the killing, God or man? Can you refer me to historical data that corroborates these massacres? I also looked for your verses on the previous pages of this thread but couldn't find them, would you kindly tell me where to look ?

Satan is the ultimate source of evil but man comes in a close second.

+ yes i believe satan can induce men to act evil but sometimes he just kicks back and laughs because we do it all on our own without any nudge on his part

The way I see it is that not everyone shared the same belifes as the Catholics so they split & created thier own demonations. Rememember Moses holding his hands up during one battle? (Amalekite raiders ) God told him to hold his hands up in praise & as long as he held his hands up they would win. At one point Moses got tired & two people had to come up & help him. Correct me if I am wrong but that was God giving Moses Army. the power to win.
I do not see where I posted any verses in this thread...but.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_pe...n_by_Christians


I've pointed out some of the highlights for you.



In the Old Testament, God commands that the temples, idols, and sacred groves of the pagan non-believers be destroyed, and that those that follow other gods in the territory of God's people should be killed. According to mainstream Christianity, this, however, contrasts with the teaching of Jesus which regards love towards God and other people as the supreme law. I John 4 : 7 and 8 "Love is from God, (..) and who don't love don't know God, for God is love" Romans 13 : 9 and 10 " [All God's] Commandments are summed up in this one : Love the other as yourself (...) Love doesn't cause harm to the others; so to love the others fulfill all the Law of God"
Leviticus 20:27 ("A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall be put to death; they shall be stoned with stones, their blood shall be upon them.") and Exodus 22:18 ("You shall not permit a sorceress to live.") have been interpreted by some Christians as directing people to kill those who supposedly use magic. However the translation is debated and one interpretation is that it doesn't refer to the practices used by various occult groups modernly thought of as "Witchcraft", such as found in the Wiccan Faith, but rather curses intended to harm, or indeed only with necromancy (Peake's Commentary) - the Hebrew people coexisted with Pagans who not only believed in many gods, but often practiced "sorcery."[citation needed] Also see Christian views on witchcraft.
Leviticus 20:13 ("If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.") has been used to legitimise persecution of homosexuals, although this law is considered by many Christians to contradict essential teachings of Jesus.

Some might say well that doesn't count because thats the OT but yet the OT is often refered to in many ways.

You may want to read some of the verses I posted before you say that God didn't kill.

My bad, I could have misunderstood what you said in post 51 :
All ancient armies fought under the protection of their deities & actively sought their help in battle, Moses was not so different from others in that respect. Why should you hold the God of the bible to be more guilty than say other god of ancient egypt, greece or rome?

Well I think you have a valid point there, maybe your right evil is a test we strive to overcome but as far a the serpent being God I disagree I believe the serpent was satan but I don't want to derail the topic here. If evil is a test for us to pass daily then maybe some just fail miserably at it and this is where the true evil things people do come from, I don't know but thats an interesting take on it.


Always a pleasure

My bad, I could have misunderstood what you said in post 51 :



It is way past midnight here, and frankly I'm a bit tired. I will try to respond to each point very briefly.
There were several nationalistic factors behind the split of the church which exacerbated any theological differences they had.

All ancient armies fought under the protection of their deities & actively sought their help in battle, Moses was not so different from others in that respect.Why should you hold the God of the bible to be more guilty than say other god of ancient egypt, greece or rome?

Most of the OT verses commanding the destruction of the pagan altars were talking about Baal whose altars were on high places, with the fires etc. The phoenicians & canaanites used to sacrifice their first born child to baal by throwing the child, alive, in a fire pit. I visited a place called tophet in carthage, tunisia , where baal was worshiped, and saw there the small stone sarcophagi where the remains of these children were buried. The guide said that some of these children were four years old, i.e. old enough to be aware of the danger & terrified by it. No child should die like that. I am sure you agree with me that the interdiction in this case is justified.
You chose the NT verses which, for me, sums up what christianity is all about. Those who killed in Christ's name, would have killed also under any other name or faith. They did it for conquest, for power, for whatever reasons ; that is why I admire JPII for apologizing for the crusades (which provided a venue for the disinherited 2nd., & 3rd., sons of the nobility to build their fortune, while protecting pilgrims etc).

Concerning the OT laws, when Jesus challenged the accusers of the adulterous woman, he set an example and a rule. There are no laws which take precedence over the commandment of love. Christians are supposed to be ' harmless as doves'. However, to tie it all back to the OP, many people fall for the temptation of power, riches, simple lust for vengeance... Satan is called the liar & tempter, he can only entice, but it will be people who will decide to follow & harm others.

good night

When you have one religion tries to lay cliam to thier God as the one True God it's going to come under fire. You asked me to show where God killed people I did. There is more then just that I just pointed out one thing. Christians like to cliam that thier God would never do such a thing but when someone shows them they feel the need to justify it. You can't pick & choose what you want out of the bible & try to justify it.

However, the conundrum is that in doing so you will be implicitly stating that the God of Moses does exist.

True but Christian bashing is en vogue now days regardless of whether there is any merit behind it. Much of it 'might' be guilt as well. Many people feel bad because their ancestors did terrible things and some are attributed to Christianity. Whether Christianity was truly at fault or not by becoming Neopagan or New Age or atheist we can instantly be cleansed of any guilt. Sorry if this is patronizing but I thought it should be thrown out there. lolz I do know this does not apply to everyone but this is how it seems.

you did not show me any convincing evidence of God killing people;

Aye, I too know that us Bible believing followers of Christ have also been persecuted starting with the Romans throwing us to the lions. Throughout the ages the persecution has continued especially at the hands of other Christians, especially Catholics, who followed or follow more the traditions of man than the Bible. This persecution continues today in some parts of Latin America where Catholic villagers outcast evangelicals. I do not have any direct lineage to any group but share the same beliefs as many who have been persecuted before.

Will Bible verses work?

Will Bible verses work?

Do you personally accept them as proof?

Zandore, either God is doing the killing, therefore he exists, or christians are doing the killing, therefore human beings are responsible, which one is it? If you use bible verses believing that they are written by men & not inspired by God, then it is the second probability, blame people not God. If you want to blame God using verses from the bible, then I take it that you believe it is the word of God who exists.

At one point in my life......yes I did.....but not now.


Many Christians want to say their God does not kill......what do you believe?

I beg to differ, you did not show me any convincing evidence of God killing people; you mentioned Moses raising his arms up in praise. Considering that for you the God of Moses is non-existing, your proof falls flat on its face! Any killing which happened during this battle would be perpetrated by human soldiers, and not because one man was standing in a corner with his arms raised ( even if supported by others). You want to show evidence of a supernatural being intervening in human affairs and killing people, you must provide evidence of a supernatural or paranormal act or event that totally precludes any kind of human or natural causes,i.e. a clear causal relationship between the killing and the deity. However, the conundrum is that in doing so you will be implicitly stating that the God of Moses does exist.

I'm showing YOU proof of your God killing though Moses no I do not believe in your God your right there. Proving that your God does or does not excist is not the topic here. If you want prove that your God killed without using humans look to the flood for that. You only want evidence that you can disprove. Just because I do not believe in your God does not mean I can't prove that he did kill.

Just a side thought I wonder how many of you would call it evil if say the Pagans had a book & our Gods killed as much as your God does in the bible.... huh.gif

When you have one religion tries to lay cliam to thier God as the one True God it's going to come under fire

Just because I do not believe in your God does not mean I can't prove that he did kill.

you must provide evidence of a supernatural or paranormal act or event that totally precludes any kind of human or natural causes,i.e. a clear causal relationship between the killing and the deity

Clovis in post 55 mentioned several examples of pagan & celtic religious practices which included human sacrifice; some were practiced in Europe's peat bogs as late as 230 AD . That human sacrifice is evil is a foregone conclusion, but who would you say is responsible, the people who gutted & garroted innocent victims, or the deities & spirits they worshiped?

Over the past centuries, remains of many hundreds of people--men, women, and children--have come to light during peat cutting activities in northwestern Europe, especially in Ireland, Great Britain, the Netherlands, northern Germany, and Denmark. These are the "bog bodies." The individual bog bodies show a great degree of variation in their state of preservation, from skeletons, to well-preserved complete bodies, to isolated heads and limbs. They range in date from 8000 B.C. to the early medieval period. Most date from the centuries around the beginning of our era. We do not know exactly how many bog bodies have been found--many have disappeared since their discovery. Many people find it hard to imagine that the dark brown bog bodies were once lightly colored human beings of flesh and blood who lived in timber houses, brought up children, looked after their cattle, grew crops, made clothes, prepared meals, and manufactured tools. Facial reconstructions and remains of their hair and clothing give us an idea of how they looked during life.

No one knows how these people ended up in the bogs, but it seems that the bodies are not the remains of unlucky people who fell in after losing their way. According to classical authors, the Roman Iron Age people of northern Europe offered human sacrifices to celebrate military victories, and to recover from illness, and executed people as punishment for crimes or perceived social imperfections such as homosexuality. Many of those found in the bogs died violent deaths.

.............<<>> 'Norwood' I think you have it wrong about the (Roman Catholic Church). The (Roman Catholic Church) tried to wipe out all the (Born Again Christian) that were birth out of the book of Acts. Because these true Christians would not convert to the (Roman Catholic Church). And a (Born Again Christian) in the past is still a (Born Again Christian) in our present time. Just as a Pagan from the past is still a Pagan in our present time. Time don't change (Nothing).
A leopard has its spots. And can't change His spots to stripes as a tiger. Because they are what they are................Joey.

Revelation 17:9 This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

What could Pentecostals and Catholics possibly have in common?Many practices and beliefs separate these two groups. Pentecostals have not infrequently compared Catholicism to Mystery Babylon, the false church of the last days. Catholics sometimes view Pentecostal worship and doctrine as less than orthodox.

Some areas of convergence, however, do exist. Outside of the broad similarities between all Christian faiths (i.e., belief in Christ, authority of Scripture, and so forth), there are some striking similarities between the largest (Roman Catholicism) and second-largest (Pentecostalism) Christian “denominations.”

Both espouse traditional values. Quite often Catholics and Pentecostals lock arms over sanctity of life issues. Both are against abortion, euthanasia, and genetic engineering. Both are for lasting marriages and raising children in the confines of faith.

Both insist on personal devotion to the faith. While touring a Catholic church in the Philippines, I watched worshippers on bended knee inch their way down the long center aisle, a trip of twenty or thirty minutes. Such devotion expressed in varying ways is common amongst Pentecostals. For most of the 20^th Century, Pentecostals were religious pariahs. Such isolation sometimes becomes an invitation for devotion. Catholics and Pentecostals share this sentiment: any religion that costs nothing is worth nothing.

Both believe in “words for today.” When a pope speaks ex cathedra, Catholics believe his words are either fresh revelation or interpretation. Pentecostals believe in words of knowledge and wisdom, prophecies, and spiritual insights. Although such words are not viewed on par with Scripture, Pentecostals believe that God still speaks to His people.

Both emphasize miracles. Protestant scholars once endeavored to prove that the age of miracles ceased with the death of the apostles or the writing of Scripture. Catholics and Pentecostals believe in miracles – miracles of provision, healing, visitations, and answered prayers. Both groups believe God is able and willing to perform these for those who seek His face.

Both believe in devil-possession. These two faiths have taken root in areas once dominated by superstition and paganism. Faced with the reality of evil and evil spirits, both groups believe in devil-possession and, more importantly, both believe in deliverances.

Both believe in the baptism of the Spirit. Confirmation in the Catholic Church was traditionally viewed as the baptism of the Spirit. Today, this practice is viewed more as a coming of age. Bishops normally perform this rite, anointing with oil and petitioning for the Holy Spirit to fall upon the recipient. Pentecostals claim that the baptism of the Spirit comes upon individuals who have turned in faith to God. Often, but not always, this Spirit comes through the laying on of hands.

Both claim to be the original church. Catholicism claims Simon Peter as its first pope and that the church has existed through the papal line for two millennia. Pentecostalism claims to be a restoration of the New Testament church and that the true church has existed at all times since Pentecost. Both cannot be correct, yet each stakes its claim as the original church.

Of course, these are generalizations and some of the comparisons could also be made for other faiths.

The love of money is the root of all evil

You're right, the topic of this thread is if true evil exists, the discussion was about whether men or satan are responsible. However, you volunteered to bring up the God of the bible & insist that he is a killer. In post 48 you said:
And in post 79 you also said:
You introduced a new line in the discussion, I am only trying to take a closer look at your proposal or claim. It is natural & logical to question the premise of your argument. That should be neither surprising nor offending. If you insist that it is God, not men or natural forces/ disasters , who is solely responsible for evil, killing people..etc., then the onus of proof falls on your shoulders.
How can someone who does not exist kill? Sorry Norwood, I am not trying to antagonizing you here, but there is a contradiction in the logic of a statement that says " I do not believe X exists, but I can prove that he killed".