I have seen cults and even churches have members do dangerous things just to prove their faith. Some use snakes, tarantulas and have the members prove their faith in God by believing God will protect them. I myself would not do it because I have no need to prove my faith to anyone other than God. I have no need to prove to others that I have faith. I really don't understand who they are trying to prove their faith to the other members, God, or to themselves.
What is your opinion and would you commit to such a silly and dangerous ritual?

Always a pleasure

I did that in another life, I have no need to do it in this one.

Love Omnaka

People like Andrea Yates, Karesh, Jones, come to mind.
No. I think anyone who feels they need to do such a thing is seriously suffering from a mental disorder. If a person wants to go out into the world to be shown or used as an example in their faith, that's different-- in the name of love/GOD. God is love, and I know God wouldn't expect us to prove anything of the such. That is left up to us, individually, and we are each given a life time to do so.

We are given as many lifetimes as this world is in existance to learn this love, Our spirits are infinate, This means One has lived before as well as will live again.

Love Omnaka

o

to those that do it isn't silly. dangerous ? according to them only if you don't have absolute faith.

You do have a point there, I should not have said it was silly or frivolous as I am sure the people who do these things have beliefs and while I may not agree it s their beliefs.
I have absolute faith I just don't feel the need to prove it to anyone as God knows.


Always a pleasure

if you had absolute faith you wouldn't be afraid. but fear is human. and we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

I do have absolute faith in God but as you say I am human and fear is a part of being human. I do fear spiders and snakes but that does not waiver my faith in God in any way.

Always a pleasure

If you have absolute faith why would you need to prove it ? To prove something is to overcome doubt, if you dont doubt there wont be a need to prove.

I have watched footages of people performing those dangerous acts in the name of faith. You can see that they still have fear. They dont really have absolute faith, they simply hope the faith that they have is enough to keep them safe. They need to prove to themselves that what they believe in is right, true, correct.

You see those people toying with poisonous snakes and insects. When they walk away unharmed they are very happy and they celebrate, jumping dancing with joy. If you have absolute faith you would have taken that for granted, whats there to be worth celebrating ? It was because they knew it wasnt really faith at work, it was more luck at work.

The truth is we all know faith alone wont keep us safe. Just because we believe in God doesnt mean bad things wont befall us. These people do those little exercises to fool themselves into thinking that having faith will keep them from harm. This is human need for security. It really has nothing to do with faith in a certain religion.

In the bible, it says do not test God. I am okey dokey with that =).

lmao !

I don't know anybody else's state of mind, of course. But people do all sorts of things every day which are very dangerous for the ordinary, inexperienced person, and much less dangerous for someone who knows what to do.

For example, there are high-voltage transmission lines a few miles away from here. If anything goes wrong with them, somebody needs to ascend to a great height (10 meters?), and work with these wires whose voltage is so high, you can feel it on the surface of your skin before you touch anything, just being close to them. And, of course, the workers do touch things, since it is their job.

I would last about fifteen seconds up there. If the electricity didn't kill me, the fall to the ground would. And it is never completely safe. From time to time, experienced workers are killed or badly injured.

The main difference between poisonous snakes and high-up, high-voltage wires is that the snake is a sentient being. The mechanics of the situation is that the snake has no wish to harm you, probably wishes to be left alone, and has the choice to refrain from biting you. The wires are just there, your first mistake is your last mistake, nothing personal.

And the snake can learn. If he or she has been handled without injury (to the snake) in the past, and especially if the snake is then fed, a deal can be made. Not so with the electrical wires.

Snake charming is not a peculiarly Christian activity. You do not need to be "suffused with grace" to accomplish the feat. It would help, however, that both you and the snake know what you are doing.

I don't need to prove my faith to anyone. I don't like the idea of snake handling, because it is cruel to the snake. The people have a choice to be there, but the snake doesn't. Snakes need to be left in the woods where they belong, not going to church.

If someone seeks to prove to another that someone loves them by putting themselves in danger, then they do not love that person they are willing to frighten at all. The whole thing is just to prove to someone that they have power over another and is a type of bragging, an evil form.

Verry nice Bro Pavot!

Love Omnaka

Thru faith, Spirit Agape is real, as real as the chair you sit in, then why would anyone need to prove its existence? Must one slap the chair to re-instate their faith that it exist each time before they sit down into it? I think not but many do.

Now if I were to sit in a broken chair and feel pain, I may learn to test before I sit. But is that not just out of my own experience of distrust generated by the physical world? What if I sit in a chair and fail to feel pain, do I gain trust back? Instantly? Or do I live a lifetime of testing all chairs? If I go to a place where there was a chair and sit, missing the mark, does that prove the non-existence of the chair? Therefore, what is my faith in chairs?

Now something like gravity, where there is no escape from unless orbiting high above the earth where one would know thru the experience of aother to distrust what we hold so true on earth, there is an example of faith. Tried and true faith that gravity does exists. No escaping its power while here on earth. Trusting what the astronauts "say" is true, however never conceiving it is possible by our experience on earth unless we, ourselves become astronauts and venture into space. How much of this is discovered firsthand, how much is trusted secondhand. Thru second hand must we have proof or trust.

As you have stated about the trip between physical and sprit there are powerful trust issues. This is a subject worthy of consideration. Being on the other side, Agape becomes real and maybe in a sense physical. Once experienced, one must require quite a substantial motivator to leave from the truth back to the physical. But the proof it generates is self evident. It becomes real. Knowing of it by experiencing it in our own sprit, that it is real, needs no proof. Trusting in ones own experience. Trusting in someone else’s experience become doubtful, and again, a trust issue, not necessarily faith issue.

Those who must experience, thru the experiences of others (like the astronauts) have reason to doubt, experiencing many broken attempts (chairs) must re-instate faith (trust). To "open their heart" and free fall into the word of another person (astronauts) requires another form of faith (trust) and as always the mis-trust we learn in other humans, need I explain that? It is considerable. Very hard to do, not like believing the trustworthy astronauts backed by science and video.

To loose all the things negative is the doubt which requires surrender completely to the faith. This is the only way one can cross over between the spirit and physical. Those still clinging to physical and logic will always consider the doubt. And once crossover is obtained, the desire to return from spirit will be easily lost. For to open ones eyes by opening ones heart is the ticket there and to take responsibility for the souls still left in the physical is the ticket home. A hard unselfish task unattainable without un conditional love.

Unconditional love is the bridge to faith. Unselfishness for the treatment back, considering the good for another at all cost to self. Knowing that Agape is so much more worthy than the pithily littlely things we hold to be worth on earth. That Spirit is so much more than what is found to be “human” and the trust dissipates. Trust becomes a non-issue. Yet to leave oneself open to this trust is an open invitation for abuse by others Physical or spiritual. To become a known portal is to become vulnerable. The strength and constantly guard becomes exhausting and the unconditional free-fall becomes a burden. For it cannot be turned off easily, and can become abused by others. A burden to hard for any, I repeat any human to bear without major consequences. Without a guardian, becomes increasingly impossible. Without constant protection and attention, becomes unbearable. To have such faith is an open invitation for dissections by the unbelievers.

The Spirit is faith itself. It is real, rely upon it, free fall into it, release and yield to it. Surrender to the belief without reservations in knowing it is safe wanting the best for us. Even if it is evil, it is good for us and with the strength, chooses for the good, then and only then one can rely upon it. Even under the microscopes of unbelievers. It is real; there is no other discussion possible, no where else to venture yet to help others believe too.
Omdenea

I agree.. Our spirits have a choice if they want to return again or not.... And knowledge os learned each time we do.

Absolutly I agree too

Ther probably is some intrinsic value to facing and overcoming your fears and in proving to yourelf that your beliefs can play a part in this, but its not for me. Too little profit Too much risk.

On a related topic. My wife and her sister were looking at class photos from their church college in the 1950s when they attended. One quarter of that class had been killed while acting as missionaries in places like melanesia, and particularly papua new guinea. I was absolutely stunned that this was so common within my life time.

However, rightly or wrongly, and allowing that some people would think they only got what they deserved, i can empathise with that demonstration of faith for a purpose, much more than handling snakes or deadly animals.

If the whole faith/god thing works the way these people think, them handling snakes may very well be distracting god from something more important like saving babies in car accidents or puppies down wells.

Each spirit incarnate on this world, Has Guardian spirits watching over the incarnate in the physical.

These spirits work for God and you, and can call on as many spirits to help as is needed.

They are in constant contact with Heavenly Father at all times, and because time is an non issuue In the spirit world, Spirit can be many places at one time, as Father can Be in all places at any time. Father is not distracted by The antics of his children.

I think he is more amused at it.

Know these antics would never stop him from answering a prayer or comforting Those who seek his Love.

Love Omnaka

No, sandee, I wouldn't. People that do those sort of things, like walking across hot coals, or whipping themselves when they sin, its all madness, starving yourself for penance, and I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind. You are not impressing the Most High God because you let snakes crawl all over you. That is why it is written "I desire mercy and not sacrifice". God wants us to come to Him, and just ask for His mercy. He is a loving Father, who does not require these other things.

But if it ever came down to it, I would die for my faith.

I was born a snake handler an ill die a snake handler. lol.

fear not evil but ignorance.

jesus states in the wilderness god has only so much patience for the foolish.

God has More Patience than Jesus.

Love Omnaka

they didn't have to be killed at all. they were pushing an unwanted religion on the populous. Christianity in it's spread has killed off alot of aboriginal beliefs , cultures. All for teaching the 'heathans' the 'right way' to God.

http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?opti...&Itemid=142

Yeppers, There is no one way to God,
Judging others to be heathans or worse is worse than being a heathan in my book, Jesus got crucified because people judged him to not be what he said he was, and it continues by those who say they worship Bro Jesus, Lesson not learned by many.I'm not judging them just making an observation.

Maybe after this life they will know what judgement does to the judged>

I can hope.

Love Omnaka

I handled snakes just the other day. They were made of jelly and were nice and chewey when I bit into them Seriously, I do not see that I need to "prove" my Faith. I live my Faith every day. God gave us a certain sense of discernment and feelings for self-preservation, and stepping in front of a truck (figuratively speaking, of course) is not the best way to show Faith, imo. I read in another thread where someone said that those who do this kind of thing have more Faith in God, which I do not believe is so. They just show their Faith differently. I do hesitate to say it is "stupid" to willingly put yourself in danger for no reason other than to prove your Faith, since doing so would be a Judgement and as has been stated, there are people who do this and do not see anything stupid about it. But I do think that it is not the best way to go.

All the best,

I had been waiting since the inception of the post for someone to offer this view. Dying for faith is true martyrdom.



Mhmm. God is timeless and omnipresent.



Indeed.



Oh ya? Well let us see God be patient enough to actually come down in the form of a human and live through the boredom and droll that all that entails. That would take true patience as we simple mortals understand it. Heck I cannot even stand waiting in line at some places. Oh wait He already did that haha (^_~)

+ some of us do believe Jesus is God and God is Jesus

Of course he did! He comes down regularly! He takes the body of an old man and goes to New Jersey to play skee-ball.

You may have a point. As i said some people think they got what they deserved. Personally i think the ethical standards of christianity are a small advance on those of cannabalistic shamanism, and that those countries where missionaries worked so hard to provide schools, hospitals and an improved life expectancy and health standards are at least marginally better off than they would have been. No other government or non government agencies were making an effort, either because there was no profit for them, or because they were not driven by any particular desire or interest to improve the lot of those peole .

You only have to look at the australian govts complete disinterest in its own indigenous people at the time, to see that govts were not even thinking about tribal peoples in their off shore protectorates then.

But aside from that, I guess you feel equal moral outrage at the IMF's imposition of western banking regulations on third world countries, in return for any financial assistance. Im sure you feel as outraged as i do by the french hegemonist usurpage of regional place names for products such as wine and cheese, and i hope to see you out on the streets protesting at the americanisation of western culture, particularly language, through intellectual imperialism.

Religion is by no means the only area where a culture dominates others through vigour, power (including economic power), or simply by possesing a more single minded, self determined, sense that it is right, and others are wrong.

And as for destroying aboriginal/indigenous cultures , well how do you stand on a belief/ cultural system which encourages much older men from marrying and having sex with young girls, some even prepubescent. That is an ongoing cultural traditin in australian indigenous societies today. Is it ok simply because it is part of a"traditional" culture.

How about spearing as a punishment for certain crimes? This is still aboriginal law and is still recognised/tolerated within some australian jurisdictions when western penalties are applied. Sometimes death is the intended reaslt but often death occurs incidentally from the wounding in remote areas, away from medical help. Ethical standards and their application are not always simple or easy to determine.

Very valid points Mr Walker. I will add that anyone who equates simple voluntary missionary work with those who conquered and forcefully converted others and destroyed culture is being quite disingenuous. Let us not forget that the biggest change to any indigenous cultures so far in the modern era has been marketing and consumerism. Missionaries who volunteer to go into third world countries to offer not only their faith but a variety of services including medical aid and the establishment of schools should only be commended.

[quote name='Clovis'



Oh ya? Well let us see God be patient enough to actually come down in the form of a human and live through the boredom and droll that all that entails. That would take true patience as we simple mortals understand it. Heck I cannot even stand waiting in line at some places. Oh wait He already did that haha (^_~)

+ some of us do believe Jesus is God and God is Jesus
[/quote]
Manifestin a Body for father is no big trick. He actually does come down quite often, only he does not hang at the palaces like most might think God does, He hangs at the soup kitchens and Mothers Favorite is the Hospitals giving comfort to the needy and disenfranchised.

If any one thinks Brother Jesus is God, That's Ok , and understandable also, He is Given a world after this one , but this one belongs to Father and Mother.

Love Omnaka

Well I am glad you think it is OK that I think Jesus is God even if you think I am incorrect (^__^)

Love Clovis

He's my Brother, I know he Works for Good and Father, He is one with the love Of Father and the universe.

I also think it's alright if Budhists think Budah is God. Even Father understands why his spirit children believe as they do.

Main thing People don't hurt each other in the name of God, whatever god you pray to, It gives the real God a bad rep

Love Omnaka

punishment for crimes should be left to those cultures. I don't think canning is such a bad penalty yet alot of Americans were up in arms when that one American boy was caned for spray painting cars ........ bet he never does it again.

I think we are too weak on crime. Death penalty aside which can take forever ............ public shame ought to be brought back. Your a thief ? for a month you have to wear a huge sign proclaiming such. let people throw rotten food at you. ect........ heck a caning for good measure. lucky to not get a finger removed as an outward sign. ( again , stealing because your starving as opposed to stealing to meet your next fix of crack = 2 different things.)

But if your trying to justify another religion changing a culture. It should have no right too.

double post oops

Thats interesting lt Ripley. I tend to agree with you about the punishment side of it, but i do think that sometimes more advanced ethical systems need to be imposed on lesser ones (religious or not) Basically that was what the american civil war was about.

Its particularly diffficult when you have what is a stone age based ethical system in the same country as a very modern western one.If you allow separate systems you're acccused of cultural apartheid. If you impose one on the other, you are accused of cultural genocide.

For example aboriginal people may be speared and killed for having sex with the wrong moiety (Clan grouping) This is actually the same law and for the same reason as the christian laws about who you can and cant have sex with. Iit is designed to prevent inbreeding in small isolated clan groups. Yet people get hot under the collar about christian rules being applied to them in this day and age, while arguing that an even more primitive culture be allowed to retain its rules and punishments, that grew out of the same basic societal needs, and thus can be no more relevant in this day and age than christian ones from 4000 years ago.

I beleive that we dont need to prove our faith, as long as we believe deep down i find that ok. It dosnt seem right that we should suffer for God. If he (ever know, might be a girl) loves us, he (maybe girl) would not want any harm thrown upon us. On the other hand he (maybe she) did create us and give us life so maybe suffering would pay him/her back.

Interesting debate Ripley and Mr Walker. I agree harsher punishments, not more prison time necessarily but what Ripley advocated, might be in order. Though for that to happen we also need a cohesive social system in place. No sense in punishing bad apples when the farm has less than optimal conditions for the conducive growth of good apples.

As far as antiquated social systems and beliefs that might no longer have a place in the context of a modern world the best way to change that is not through imposition of what is perceived to be a superior culture but through education. Education alone is what fosters change. The British colonial system was harsh in that it demanded change at the point of a bayonet but at the same time they brought in educational systems. Which one worked better? Well either way the world is a different place so pacification through force might no longer be necessary. Another ill contributor to bringing about change is consumerism. This will do no good. We need to focus less on selling the darkest corners of the third world products and more on simply educating the public. It is one thing to go in and set up camp through a relief agency and give them a fish but much better if we teach them how to fish. Just an analogy.