Universe

hi source By the way, what are you the source of, or is ot simply that you are indeed sourcey?


Even if your belief that god is a construction of sentience is correct (which I dispute) , it is almost inevitable that the universe is filled with sentient life. Given the nature of sentient development and self aware intelligence, it is highly likely that most, if not all, those sentiences will have constructed god in their own image (using your argument) Thus, as long as sentient life exists in the universe god is likely to live on.

Unless all the aliens are atheists that is.

why should other sentient life believe in God ? because you think they would ? and what if they were to say there was no such thing ? that man was delusional ? primitive ?

Because the development of a spiritual element in sentience is almost certainly an integral part of the development of sentience itself. The evidence for this is overwhelming even though we only have human history to study. No animal without sentience and self awareness develops religious/spiritual belief. Every known form of humanity from cromagnon through neanderthal to homo sapiens has left clear evidence that it does/did have such beliefs. Every known race and culture of humans has developed religious spiritual faith often independently of any contact with other humans.
As sentience takes shape,through evolution or creation, certain philosophical /spiritual questions are probably inevitable. For example once death and life are distinguishable as different states of being, humans have always treated their dead with some form of religious ceremony even if it is putting amber beads or flowers on neanderthal graves We ask why, how, etc?

Inevitably, when the correct answers are not known, sentience will supply answers which combine logic and faith to provide one. Thus cromagnon man had ceremonies to improve his chance of catching animals, probably by first catching their spirit. Australian aboriginal peoples close spiritual connection with the land, and their dreaming, grew out of a need to make sense of their environment and adapt to it, not only physically, but in a way which had spiritual meaning.

It is possible that a race so advanced that it knew all the answers to everything would not need to create a god, but then they would virtually become gods to less developed races. Given that the level of both intellegince and technological development is not likely to be uniform throughout the universe from what little we know about it, then it is likely there will always be a lot of sentient beings still developing towards full knowledge and understanding.

How could these peolpe relate to the world(s) around them without a belief system which extended beyond what was absolutely known. Simple curiousity (a necessary adjunct of sentience) would mean they could not operate on facts alone, because there would always be much not known or understood. They would constantly seek to know and understand their worlds and thus create hypotheseses which were basically based on belief or faith . And sorry to disappoint you, once again, lt ripley but this concept is not a religious one It has beeen discussed thoroughly in many science fiction novels from the golden years of the 19 20's and 30's right through to present day literature

It is a basic philosophical question which sf loves exploring As a reader of many thousands of such books before i had any interest in religion this idea(not original to me) intrigued me from at least the age of 6 or 7 onwards.

Im going to have to disagree. Philosophy yes, religion no. Your making a giant assumption here. You cannot assume a sentient species will become spiritual or religious as a way to cure their curiosity or as a way to answer questions. Even so they could develop beliefs systems that do not involve gods. They could be comfortable in just not knowing, they may not even care to indulge in such things. Also every human doesn't even develop a spiritual means at understanding.

It is also entirely possible that other sentient species wouldn't even have our human curiosity or imagination.

Love Made God.

Love Omnaka

That's it! Now I am an Atheist!!



I agree with Cadetak here. I cannot fathom how a sentient and curious race will always try to satisfy their curiosity using belief and religion. There are always various possiblities of how curiosity is used, but assuming that belief is the end result is assuming too much. Plus, how can one assume so much, without examples to show that?



Where's your proof?

I think it's a very big presumption, especially making a statement with no proof, to say that. I personally believe that there is no way to tell.

While it is just possible that you are correct about religion (even though every skerrick of evidece which is available indicates that you are not), it is almost physically impossible that this statement is correct. Investigate what sentience or self aware intelligence is, and the latest neurological, physiological and psychological determinations on how it evolves. Along with a more contentious hypothesis that sentience/intelligence evolves through our ability to manipulate the environment through our hands; (and thus we learn calculations etc to manipulate things, which in turn develop feedback and sentience self awareness) it is increasingly more evident that sentience/intelligent self awareness, is an evolution of manipulating the intellectual/emotional environment around us as much as the physical one..

Thus intelligence most probably cannot evolve without, particularly curiousity, and later along the evolutionary path, imagination. The most sentient animals, other than humans display curiousity.. Once curiousity is evident, the brain must develop the capacity to evaluate and synthesise data so that it can weigh the pros and cons of curiousity and learn from experimentation which curiousity will lead to.
This is the first step in moving away from biologically or environmentally determined responses which are programmmed into all animals. It is arguable whether any animals other than humans display imagination. It is likely that facility with language , including inner dialogue and recognition /understanding of that dialogue, is required for the development of imagination (which is, first, the extrapolation from what is known into the unknown)

Possibly some animals have it but can't display, it but we have little or no evidence for this.

Once imagination, ie the extrapolation into the unknown, comes into being, then some form of religion is logically inevitable. You can call it what you like, but any system which formulates human actions and responses around best guesses, hypotheses or other knowledge bases gained through extrapolation/the imagination, is actually a faith based system of operations and thus a form of religion.
Arguably science and religion are almost indistiguishable, as can be seen when you lookat the historical antecedents of science such as alchemy and astrology even phrenology.. It is only the growing established knowledge base which refines extrapolations and hypothesese and eliminates many probabilities, which has increasingly distinguished science from religion.
So early religions, for example, worshipped the sun, which was a powerful and significant force in humans lives. No logical rational person would leave to blind chance the effect of the sun on them, if they thought they could influence it. The same with people dependent on animals for food. Only a fool would not make some effort to improve thetr chances of catching these animals.
Given that sentience does not emerge full blown in a species, but continually evolves ,from the most basic to increasingly complex, all sentients are likely to create gods. If and when they grow beyond the need for their own creations is a point the human race has not yet reached or discovered. We still tend to create gods to worship, but just in more sophisticated forms.

We only really have one sentient species to study which is ourselves...if we had like a dozen other alien sentient species to also study off of you may have a point. Tests, experments, and studies of this sort require a much larger pool to study off of. A Psychologist wouldn't base their entire knowledge of human psychology off of one person would they? No, you need something to compare to.

There is no reason why an intelligent sentient species wouldn't just be comfortable not knowing or not even care about the mysteries of the universe. I know humans who live their lives never stopping to think about religion, big bang theory, gods, or evolution. They just live to live and don't worry about such things. Also the presence of human Atheists seems to contradict your theory on that all sentient beings develop spirituality or religion. We also have no idea how an alien sentient species would behave...different biology, psychology, environment, etc.

I will agree that sentient intelligence will most likely lead to curiosity and imagination because you both of those for intelligence to grow. This doesn't mean that they will use their imagination and curiosity to develop gods and religions. Just because our species developed spirituality and beliefs in gods does not mean every sentient species would.

Maybe some aliens see the sun and think "oh theres a big ball of fire" or see the universe as always existing and created by a creator, maybe they believed by default that when they died nothing happens. Or maybe they didn't, who knows.

Humans also war with one another does that mean every sentient species would also do so?

The funniest thing on these forums is the concept of god. Most people have no idea what god is, what his attributes are and the nature of god. Instead, we demi gods, human gods, love created god etc. When analysed these are such foolish assertions that i beginning to question the intelligence of many people on UM.

LIsten If there is a god, he is absolute and the eternal, unborn etc. So how can god be created, the question itself is illogical, and those who entertain it are foolish.

Not quite as foolish as saying we can have no idea or clue about the one who created us.

How ya doin Ozz Man?

Love Omnaka

Others have addressed your flawed logic regarding sentience with far more eloquence than I'd care to, so I'll simply reply to your first question (and I'll try to do it in a way that will not upset your sensibilities).

My moniker is simply a name that I chose to be addressed by on the forum. It is taken from my all-time favorite synthesizer, the Moog Source. It is not to be taken literally, though I can understand how someone who is not a musician or is unfamiliar with 80's musical technology can be confused by it.

The Source is a monophonic analog synthesizer that is capable of creating a huge amount of sounds that can range from warm and pleasing to harsh and unsettling. To put it simply, it is a musical instrument.

The interesting thing about this instrument is that in the hands of one musician it will sound one way, while in the hands of another it will sound completely different, even within the same genre of music. Because of this, some listeners will prefer the works of the first musician, while others will prefer the second. It all comes down to one's personal taste in music.

The same can be said about religious (or non religious) beliefs. What's warm and pleasing to one individual may be harsh and unsettling to another, and visa versa.

I've yet to hear or read an argument that has convinced me to go back (yes, I was raised a Catholic) into believing there's a god and I will continue to state my opinion regarding my disbelief.

So, my friend, you enjoy your music and I'll enjoy mine.

You are right that we only have our species and earthly non species for comparison so we can not be absolutely certain, As i said my judgement is made on the only evidence so far available to us.



lol dont get me started on this. Even more books have been written discussing this question than whether aliens will be religious.
Some writers postulate that earth is the mostwarlike species in the galaxy, partly because we evolved very rapidly and our technology outstripped our ethics. These writers see humans as mercenaries around the galaxy fighting for more "civilized" species. To them, even the physical nature of earth with its separate continents and thus the development of different races, reinforced the tribalism which created conflict on earth.

Other writers believe that the same evolutionary forces which forged humanity will exist in any species and so they will all begin as innately warlike. This propensity may, or may not, be overcome by ethical systems.

One argument is that all space faring races would have to develop some ethics and ability to cooperate non violently, or else the same technology required to get them into space would destroy them before they could get very far.

Howeverm i can see possibilities where a unified race, or one very superior race on a planet, may not have any technological competition. Thus it would evolve technologically, more slowly, but could develop advanced weapons systems without having any opponents to use them on. Such a species could get into space with advanced weaponry, and still lack diplomatic or ethical skills because it had never needed to evolve them.

My belief(without any evidence ) is that the evolutionary process almost guarantees fighting and warfare within a species, but that this may be overcome through ethical/spiritual advanncesm and the fact that cooperative endeavours may be more profitable for all than individual ones.

At the momentm earth is still operating reasonably satisfactorilly under a competitive capitalist system because it works. This does not mean other economic models which reduce the risk of wars will not evolve. Humanity has been beset by tribalism since it developed intelligence (although whether cromagnon and neanderthals were physical competitors is now open to some doubt.) That tribalism is now based around race, nation states, and to a reduced extent religious belief, although each of these is also reinforced by economic elements

Thanks for your informative response, the source. I was fascinated watching the development of music, with the introduction of synthesisers, particularly the moog. It was like two cultures, musical and scientific, coming together almost creating a new sub culture. It lends credence also to the idea that pure music and pure maths come from the same part of the human brain.

I either never knew or have forgotten any reference to the source as part of the synthesiser revolution so thanks for making that connection for me.

I dont own even a sound system any more, and severe tinnitus makes the enjoynent and appreciation of music very difficult. However my inner rhythm and music are as constant as my inner dialogue, and You may catch me at any moment breaking into song, or at least a whistled tune, in response to any daily event where i can make a musical correlation.

As with most, my favourite music is from my first two decades. And i was indeed lucky that the 50's and 60's provided such a rich (perhaps unprecedented) musical diversity and culture.

So, while i realise you spoke mostly metaphorically, i will indeed take your words to heart, and always march to the beat of my own drummer. In life, as in music ,we must all find our own beat/rhythm, "for the rhythm of life is a powerful beat"

As a proponent that life should be played by the rules of calvin ball, i expect others to do the same.

Fair enough.

OT: If you ever feel like discussing the early development of synthesizers I'd be happy to oblige.

I am not up to speed but I saw the documentary on Moog and it is great how the synthesizer totally revolutionized music. So many of the genres I have come to enjoy heavily use the synthesizer and even though it is not exclusive to the 80s or began there so much of the music in the 80s uses it. Roland took over but I am sure there have been other innovations as well before and after that point. Popcorn has to be one of the earliest and best synthesizer based songs ever. I love sharing music so here are a few more that I like from the 80s but the genre existed before then and only continues stronger since then.

Cynthia - Change on Me

Depeche Mode - Blasphemous Rumors

New Order - Blue Monday

KLF - Last Train to Trance Central

Modern Talking - You're My Heart, You're My Soul

Egyptian Lover - Egypt, Egypt

Kraftwerk - Trans Europe Express

nobody made god but god himself which is cool

I am going to venture to say they were looking for the orginal God, though I like your definition.