So. We have a rather large group of people here that claim to have various psi powers, yet not a single piece of good evidence (that I've ever seen).

Why is this? Let's examine some various arguments as to why this is.

1. "It's not my job to prove it" - this excuse doesn't cut it. It IS your job to prove any claims you make, other wise they are nothing but that - claims.

2. "Nobody will believe me, they will say I faked it" - also not a good excuse. If you are careful, plan and document your experiment well, there should be no room for mistakes. The test should have clear, visible results.

3. "I don't need to prove it, because I know it's real" - please see #1.


Now, I know if I discovered I had some special power that could be proven, I would stop at nothing to prove it, skeptics be damned. I would document the evidence and provide it, and if people still want to call fake I would just provide better evidence. If they still don't believe, hey - at least I tried, which is far more than can be said about the majority (if not all) of the claimants here.

If you want people to believe (as I believe all posters who claim psi powers do, otherwise why post at all), the burden of proof is on you. Seeing as how even the most easily proven claims have yet to be shown, the only conclusion I can come up with is either people are lying, or they are mistaken. I can understand if somebody has these powers and wants to be quiet about it, but with all the claims we have here I can't help but think at least ONE of the claimants would be excited enough about it to provide evidence - which they don't.

Therefore, in my opinion, it's all fantasy/lies/in people's heads, and until I see ANY evidence to go on, I have no choice but to think this.

If anybody has a better excuse (other than 1, 2, or 3 and variations thereof) on why there's no evidence, I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to see any evidence that people have posted/found.

Don't hold your breath waiting. I have been asking for evidence for over 3 years for all these claims. NOT one has ever been backed up.

Notice most of these claimants are:

1.) Teenagers, for whom want something cool.

2.) Religious, ie. they follow beliefs based on a book that requires faith.

3.) All the above.

There are possibly quite a few reasonings. But, you get the gist.


Personally, I feel there are to many people that take an odd happening, and blow it way out of proportion.
Or they do not understand all the parameters that come into play. (ie. physics).

And claims. Whats wrong with a claim? Nothing but a claim yes. But I believe. Other people on this board believe. We talk, share opinions. Why should I spend my precious time making a vid when I could be doing other more useful things. And making a video for skeptics is on very high on my "do list". And speaking about the "its your job" why should it be. I have better things to do than to make people believe. HAving a few more people to believe is not what I want, nor what I wish for.


Its quite true. There are so many ways in which a video can be faked. No matter what it is. The science in which we all hold in such high esteem is the cause of photoshop, invsisible string. And so many others. As long as there is a possiblity, there is a way in which people can call foul. Therefore, how can a video prove anything?

Ahh the usual. Of course. If I know its real its not enough. But the believers here do believe. Which is more than enough for me. Skeptics, making a thread to ask for a vid, Not the first time, Nor will it be the last. But it won't work.

let me sleep over and ill let ya know if there is anything there.....i only dream about things when im sleeping in a certain place where something happend

Well actually its like this. Quiet means you want people to know about it. But in a more secret sense. Because its like good to have a special ability and have people discuss with them about it than say it outright in the real world.

There is no such thing as no choice for, in life, there is always a choice

see i dont blame it on any of that i blame it if i was there i would but i can only dream im only right 85% of the time

Sporkling, your random nonsensical posts aren't needed here, thanks - unless you have some proof, you're just yelling excuses into the wind.

I wonder why you ask if you don't want to be told.

I do want to be told - unfortunately, your garden variety excuses and nonsense isn't the truth - at least in the sense of why people don't post videos and other proof of their "powers".

The real reason they don't - it's all nonsense, and anybody who believes all these stories with absolutely no proof is the definition of foolish.

It is the truth moon, at least, in my eyes. In my postion, things are different. However, this does not imply that what i've said is nonsense. Because what i've said is what I think is the reason people don't show their powers. And its what you are asking for. Maybe if you don't wish to be misunderstood, you can say what you want to hear instead of something so vague like " i want to know about other excuses".

I have no need to respond to you anymore, as you never have anything good to offer to these discussions, only rambling excuses and trivial arguments - sorry.

Believe what you want - it doesn't make you right.

Later.

never really said i have powers i just see dead people in dreams and go tell people idk if its real im just oddly right alot

also its like proving what jesus did u eaither belive it or you dont..or like love or god....or why an bannana isnt spelled banana

Everyone's view is welcome and the only control I believe an OP of a thread has is requesting it be closed. Seeing that Sporkling for the most shares your skepticism I do not see what the issue is?

I do agree with him though that the burden of proof is on you. If someone were to say they can prove it to you then it would be on them.



1. It really is not up to them to prove it, it is not up to anyone if they are simply sharing their views or an account of events, even if their views include that they have personally witnessed or demonstrated psi in the past.

2. Most of the time the paranormal or psi is not an on demand phenomena but happens when it happens. This is why it falls outside of mainstream science which does require repeatable controlled observations. Maybe someone will volunteer and you can follow them around with a documentary team so when it does happen it will? Either way the effort is the one who wants to prove or disprove not someone simply sharing their views.

3. "I don't need to prove it, because I know it's real" sounds to me like they are not wishing to prove their views but just share them. Nothing wrong with that on the forum.

kthxbye

And to this sentence, I can also say "disbelieve what you want, it does not make you right". Because indeed, can you actually say you know you are right? I doubt that.

Sporkling has said he believes everything he reads - that's skepticism?

And no, I don't have any control over who posts, obviously - requesting that people don't post nonsense and regurgitated excuses is all I can do.

kthxbye

Can we keep this civil please, if you disagree with another member's point of view then you are welcome to do so but rather than simply branding their response as 'nonsense' elaborate on it, address the points that have been raised and provide a solid counter argument.

I would try and I agree, but some of the points and posts are so badly worded and incomprehensible that I wouldn't know where to start.

I'll drop it, as it's better that I just ignore them and keep the conversation on track.

I think Sporkling is actually having some trouble with the quote feature which is why the posts in question are difficult to read, i'll go ahead and repair the quote tags.

What ever happened to the man who could make images on film with his mind?
Last I heard he had passed every test.
Anyone know?

I will have to disagree, as there is a difference between bolstering a claim, and sharing a view point.

I can think of one reason why someone with special powers might want to keep it hidden. Just imagine how much money they could rack in with the lotteries, horse racing etc. Funny how NONE of these lucky winners ever say they have special psychic powers.

I'm not going to comment on "powers" such as telekinesis,telepathy and whatever "ability" some ppl might have.
Simply cause I'm not familiar with it much nor have I tried to develop it. (mainly cause its implications in real life are quite obsolete & useless)

The thing I can comment on tho is "powers" such as "hermetic alchemy","mental transmutation","magick","astral travel",etc
the "powers" if you wish to call it like that that allow you to influence,sense certain aspects of our reality.

The problem with these is that eventhough there is enough evidence in the sense of mostly anecdotal,ancient writings,common logic,self-experience etc
They cannot be proven 100% scientificaly yet.
Quantum Physics are SLOWLY starting to catch up with the way the universe functions,but even then most cannot be completely verified without the use of personal & spiritual development.
f.e quantum physics is slowly discovering more & more about quantum entanglement,teleportation and the likes.
If you put this in perspective with f.e the kybalion & the 7 hermetic principles
you will see that certain aspects of quantum theories & consciousness theories are slowly moving into ideas & theories that correspond with certain aspects of the hermetic principles (vibrations f.e)

But then you come right down to the biggest problem with most scientists.
they refuse to accept what the spiritual teachers have been stating for MILLENIA,and try to ridicule most scientists or professors who DO see the correspondance with old teachings,on various fields.
One can only truly discover this through their own personal & spiritual development cause modern "generaly accepted" philosophy & science has yet to completely discover & prove these exact things.

Quantum physics is an area of particular interest mainly because of this.
Scientists just need some time to discover how stuff works in this quantum world ^^
but as I said,they are more & more pointing towards it.

edit:sorry for bad grammar etc,not in the mood to correct it!

Sorry dude, You don't ever tell us anything. At all.

Burden of proof is ALWAYS on the person who makes the original claim.

If someone says "I can move things with my mind." They would have to prove it, not the skeptic who comes in and asks for evidence.

Yeah, I don't understand how proof can be anybodys burden other than the claimant - to say otherwise makes absolutely no sense at all.

The fact that some of these people seem so eager to make people believe what they say, AS LONG AS NO PHYSICAL PROVING ON THEIR PART IS REQUIRED, leads me to the only possible logical conclusion - they are lying or succeed in proving themselves wrong (through testing) and won't admit it.

Darksoul, your views are in line with my own thinking. Thank you for your eloquence.

As for the OP, I have seen things with my own eyes that speak of the power of the human mind. I have spent a year fellowshipping with Tibetan Buddhists. In that time, I had the opportunity to meet one of their elderly Geshes. When I say that this man was awe-inspiring, I mean that. I went to that meeting with no knowledge of what a Geshe even was. He told people in the meeting specific and relevant things to their lives without even knowing them. And to look at him brought tears of joy to your eyes. He simply radiated light. And this is the secret to all such people: the abilities come through them.

There are people in this world with abilities, who have honed them through meditative practice. And every one that I've ever come across wasn't one commonly known to everyone with loads of published books. These are people you "seek out" and happen to run into. I've also never run into one of these people that was below the age of 40 who had fluid control over them. Nor have I met any who state that the abilities originate with them. They instead say that they are merely vessels for their manifestation.

I'm willing to believe that some special people out there have some type of mental power that came through a lifetime of practice and honing - however, what you just said supports my original thoughts, the thought that 99.9% of the people that post here with wild claims of things like power of fire, cold, and telekinesis can not (and should not) be taken seriously.

The absolute lack of any serious attempt at proof underlines this point. At least ONE of the people that regularly boast of such powers would have gotten sick of the skepticism long ago and posted SERIOUS proof - but they haven't, because they simply can't do the things they are so boastful about. If they didn't want people to know about and believe in their "power", they wouldn't brag about it in the first place - unfortunately bragging is all they have to support their wild claims, or we would have seen something from them by now.

You see this is upon a religious matter, these Geshe have been practicing these techniques for forty plus years everyday. They have no reason to boast about anything, as you said Tan, these Geshe are merely vessels that channel these manifestations into the realm of how we perceive reality.

I'm sure a person could ask one of these masters to explain how these abilities work, and the answer would more than
likely be bound in the nature philosophy. On the grand scale of things; I would say the unexplainable does happen.
But, it's more than likely a rare occurance that takes many years of meditation, and training to even begin to have
a basic understanding on the nature of these manifestations.

I will say though, most of the claims on this forum fall very short of factual in my honest opinion.
Unfortunately, a hardcore skeptic would not believe these things happened even if it slapped them upside the head.
I myself, am treading forward on these matters. Honestly, I am truely beginning to believe there is more to this
than meets the eye.

On a side note, I will still take the extraordinary claims on this forum with a grain of salt.



Regards,
Tom

Yes I have. Did you read it? Its on the first page.

I can understand someone with unusual abilities keeping them to himself or herself. I can also understand people who are part of a community, like the Tibetan geshes, staying within their community, where they are accepted and respected.

I can also understand people who, whatever they think of their role in the cosmic order, come here to discuss specific experiences they have had.

What I do not understand is people who state their explanation, while omitting the details of any experience that could profit from some explaining. "I can do xyzkinesis." The basis of which, often enough, is that the poster cannot figure out where some draft is coming from, or the poster dreamt of a giraffe, and the next day met a dog named Spot.

And to choose to do it here, in this community, is knowingly to provoke. There are dozens of places on the web where self-proclaimed believers and their guru-Pied-Piper wannabes can go to swap claims, and where admiration for paranormal pablum abounds.

I am not a master of human psychology, but I have been around the track a few times. When people do something whose effects are perfectly predictable, then they are doing it in order to achieve that effect.

To post here with self-congratulatory assessments of one's own transcendent vastness, rather than elsewhere, is just higher-order flame baiting.

That doesn't completely excuse those who rise to the bait, but there is a limit to how much anybody can complain about getting what they go out of their way to attract.

Is this the big excuse now? "Hey skeptic - prove it doesn't exist"? Bwuh?

Look at it this way - if somebody came in here and said they can walk on water and you can too if you try, how many times are you going to get wet before you prove to yourself that you can't? Wouldn't it just be easier to see THEM do it?

When they refuse to show it for no good reason and just say "keep trying", what will the smart people do - continue to keep getting wet, or just give up and say "Come on, just show us"? *

BTW, I CAN walk on water. I could show you, but I'd rather you try it and prove that I can't. Get to it.





*Trick question. The smart people just ignore the fantasies and move on. I wish I was smart.

I really see no one saying I can do xyzkinesis and you can too. What I see is someone saying they can do something, someone else saying no you cannot, and then the first person might respond well go ahead and try. The logic in the post above sort of skips out the middle part of the skeptic challenging the person who shared the belief they can do something.

Factual claims are one thing, conclusions are another.

"I can move a pinwheel without touching it" is a direct factual claim. A video can settle the matter, as can describing the setup in enough detail for someone to try if they want to.

"I moved the pinwheel by psychokinesis" is not a direct factual claim, it is a conclusion. No video will settle the matter. There is nothing for someone else to do or to see that will compel them to reach the same conclusion.

At best, "I cannot explain what is happening." That still doesn't mean the original explanation is correct.

And most of the things posted here can be explained. The tried-and-true comic book claims have already been explained. They are re-explained here endlessly.

There is no mystery in these things anymore. The possibility exists that you do by xyzkinesis what everyone else can do by natural means. So what?

well if you can prove it does then u can prove it doesnt

I DID prove it doesn't, as did others. Nobody seems to want to step and and prove us wrong, though.


Hmmm....wonder why.

maybe cause people dont really care? just a thought i mean alot of people can careless what you think you can or have dis proven. let them belive as they wish to

maybe cause people dont really care? just a thought i mean alot of people can careless what you think you can or have dis proven. let them belive as they wish to

You know what? You're absolutely right. If people want to delude themselves and claim they have magical imaginary powers, why should I care?

It's not like I'm the one claiming them and lying to myself. Good point!

eh it works i guess. like i said people belive what they want its not like ull ever change their minds

Sporkling, I know what you mean.

That's why I can't make any claims or post any videos yet. Because when you make videos with powers that only make smaller effects skeptics can come up with all kinds of excuses like; It's the wind, you had something under the bowl of water, look you stopped the video at 1:67.

This is why I have to get my powers to greater level first before showing a video. So that I can do stuff that couldn't be faked by even a camera.

And no, I'm not nearly rich enough to make special effects.

That's why you can't post a video EVER, is what you mean. Anything can be faked with enough work, it doesn't matter how great your power is. This is why we will never see anything from you, or anyone else. The excuses will just keep coming.

If you are truly serious, don't count on coming up with something unfakeable, it isn't possible. Instead, come up with something simple, small, controlled, and easy to tape. You have to start somewhere, and that's more than anybody else here has done. I can give you ideas for several different simple scenarios and experiments that would be extremely difficult to fake.

Until then, I leave you to your unfounded claims.

Well not like that. He means to wait for his abilities to be stronger first, so as to tape something better.

I know what he said, you miss the point - as usual.

Let's let him answer for himself.

i wouldn't beleive that people had "powers" unless i saw it with my own eyes, i wouldn't believe any of those videos because it is sooooo easy to do something in photo shop. i believe that it is possible to have "powers" but i would just have to see it to believe it.

Editing a video convincingly is far harder than editing a pic in photoshop, and to do it well is beyond the skills of most of the people here (I'm guessing).

If I saw a video that looked fake, I would look for things like wires, shoddy procedures and film cuts rather than CGI trickery. There are ways to film simple experiments that debunk a lot of the easy trickery.

If these so-called "psionics" followed some simple rules, chose the proper equipment, and followed some simple guidelines when making the videos, there should be little doubt.

It seems the supposed psychic powers issues falls most of the time between kids that believe just because and adults that have sense enough to know better..

Have you ever considered that even if people did have them, that the stress to prove it would help the situation out? Some people lie, yes, that is true. People should not post it if they don't, yes. You will have proof, trust me, however, patience would be the best step. Most people who post they have Psychic abilities want to be, "Special" , I will agree to that. But not everyone is the same.

Even if there was proof, do you think people would want all that attention? Imagine the hysteria it would cause publicly? Do you think that would help their social position. Some people would accept it, but others would shun, and riot possibly, calling people who did prove they had their powers, "Demons", or "Unnatural"...simply out of fear and ignorance. There are tons.....tons of reasons I could post, but you are too convinced that "That is simply irreverent, and simply illogical!".