http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080507/hl_nm/suicide_abuse_dc

Remember that debate, and how it eventually turned to the claim that abuse does not have an effect on sexuality? Well hold on a second...

If the brains of homosexuals, or the genetics of homosexuals show specific changes, this shows a possible correlation between abuse and genetic changes in the brain.

It also re-opens the debate on psychotherapy being used to induce a change in brain chemistry.

This article clearly is not about sexuality, but it does show how abuse (or neglect) induces a change in brain chemistry. I only bring this up, because it seems that some people are SO adamant that people are born gay or straight (or otherwise) and there is no way to change that, while others are SO adamant that it's a choice. I think this clearly shows a possible link between environmental/psychological conditions playing a huge part in brain chemistry at a genetic level.

Hi eqgumby -- Thanks for the following phrase in your post:

A while back I posted two instances where people I know had "changed" their homosexual orientations. This post of yours seems to show that such a change has a basis in scientific research.

What do others think?

The researchers seem to come from various fields of science so that adds greater validity to their claims than if it had been say just from psychiatrist. Your claim that psychotherapy can rewire the brain is an interesting proposal.

It would take millions of years, and would be absolutely unobservable for humans...

Actually, this article states otherwise. It was indeed observable, visually, in brain chemistry. Not some subjective psychological observation either, but a physical change in brain chemistry. That's why I found it interesting. So we are NOT talking about millions of years to chemically "re-wire" the brain. The comments in the article about the rats CLEARLY show that how the rats were reared had an effect on behavior and brain chemistry. So, as I said, if sexuality is determined by genetics and brain chemistry, this would indicate that it IS possible to "re-wire" that aspect of sexuality.

I find it fascinating.

yes for SUICIDE. this isn't exactly new. anyone familiar with abuse and it's survivors knows the suicide rate and depression rate is skyrocketed compared to the general public.

your trying to force a round peg in square hole. Sexuality , they believe is hardwired before before birth.

Brain May 'Hard-Wire' Sexuality Before Birth

ScienceDaily (Oct. 22, 2003) — Refuting 30 years of scientific theory that solely credits hormones for brain development, UCLA scientists have identified 54 genes that may explain the different organization of male and female brains. Published in the October edition of the journal Molecular Brain Research, the UCLA discovery suggests that sexual identity is hard-wired into the brain before birth and may offer physicians a tool for gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.


cont ......

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/...31022062408.htm


now I suggest you go back and read again what your post was about. Heck remain depressed long enough for any reason you'll find physical changes. But a cause of homosexuality ??? that doesn't explain why the majority of gay people come from homes without abuse ...... but the majority of those abused do go through depression and the suicide rate through the ceiling.

Most educated neutral doctors and psychologists wouldn't agree with your opinion. while they may not rule out a small number of people who usually straight that are confused - that having nothing to do with chemical changes - but misperception

give anyone enough chemicals at any age and you can make someone straight gay and someone gay straight I would think. I'm sure we could re wire you.

I KNEW you'd show up eventually!

To answer both your posts:

The point was, that there was actually a physical difference in the brain caused by some external emotional force (ruling out physical trauma of course). This actually changes the pre-existing wiring in the brain. It changes wiring in the brain that may well have been there BEFORE BIRTH.


I really can't answer that Lt. For all I know, it could be true. I know you kind of toss that stuff out there like a challenge, hoping I'll put on my red-neck hat and holler "Heck no little lady! I ain't no homesecksul!", but the TRUTH is, I don't know. It MAY actually be possible to change my sexual orientation (that is, make me physically attracted to members of the same gender) through some sort of chemical re-wiring of my brain. The article I quoted sort of supports that idea. Not proves it, not by a long-shot. But it makes sense.

PS No, I am NOT volunteering. I'll stick with my infatuation for bubble-butted Hooters girls.

Here is an article published two years after the one Ripley provided which concludes that we still do not know but that some scientist are inclined to believe sexuality is not simply wired before birth.



http://www.theage.com.au/news/science/the-...4563061846.html

Genetic mutation is not required for the alteration of brain chemistry.

Eating a candy bar can alter brain chemistry.

Abuse of children causing immediate evolution in humans is not only preposterous, but if true would be the top of every news....

Ha, ha, ha!!!!

So, even though memory is not possible until age four, and there is zero opperant conditioning going on in the womb, you are suggesting babies are getting horney inside their mother's womb? Just exactly what would they be turned on about? And how? Ha, ha, ha!! Sorry. It's too much.

The gay gene has been debunked.



http://www.theage.com.au/news/science/the-...4563061846.html

Well, I'll grant there are genes that give people "homosexual inclinations". I probably have ALL the "gay genes". But I'm not in any way homosexual. But you are right. There is no gene that makes someone gay. People's genetic make up can give them certain tendencies. But behaviour in humans is not caused by genes. It is a silly idea.

but in that same vein behaviour in humans wouldn't be possible without those genes.

No single gene determines a particular behavior. Behaviors are complex traits involving multiple genes that are affected by a variety of other factors. This fact often gets overlooked in media reports hyping scientific breakthroughs on gene function, and, unfortunately, this can be very misleading to the public.

For example, a study published in 1999 claimed that overexpression of a particular gene in mice led to enhanced learning capacity. The popular press referred to this gene as "the learning gene" or the "smart gene." What the press didn't mention was that the learning enhancements observed in this study were short-term, lasting only a few hours to a few days in some cases.

Dubbing a gene as a "smart gene" gives the public a false impression of how much scientists really know about the genetics of a complex trait like intelligence. Once news of the "smart gene" reaches the public, suddenly there is talk about designer babies and the potential of genetically engineering embryos to have intelligence and other desirable traits, when in reality the path from genes to proteins to development of a particular trait is still a mystery.

With disorders, behaviors, or any physical trait, genes are just a part of the story, because a variety of genetic and environmental factors are involved in the development of any trait. Having a genetic variant doesn't necessarily mean that a particular trait will develop. The presence of certain genetic factors can enhance or repress other genetic factors. Genes are turned on and off, and other factors may be keeping a gene from being turned "on." In addition, the protein encoded by a gene can be modified in ways that can affect its ability to carry out its normal cellular function.

Genetic factors also can influence the role of certain environmental factors in the development of a particular trait. For example, a person may have a genetic variant that is know to increase his or her risk for developing emphysema from smoking, an environmental factor. If that person never smokes, then emphysema will not develop.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Huma.../behavior.shtml




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=306995

I think in some cases the psychological aspect to homosexuality is obvious.

Take for example the heterosexual woman...who has had many bad experiences with men therefore turns towards other women and becomes a 'lesbian.'

Is that a stereotype or actually true?

well, many stereotypes are based upon truth. That's why people... recognize them.
A friend of mine once dated a girl from a woman's rugby team.
I used to go and watch the matches.
I tell ya...plenty of men-hated lesbians there.
It was weird, because fair enough they're lesbians, who cares right? But they were so anti-men...which was interesting.
Too much so, like they had to compensate or something.

Did this girl become a lesbian after dating your friend, is that what you are saying?

I have never met any lesbians who had turned gay after having a bad relationship with a man.

Do you think they are changing their orientation or behaviour?

Whilst doing some research on Genetics and Sexuality, I found this interesting statistic:

The more older brothers a man has, the greater the probability is that he will have a homosexual sexual orientation. Providing he's right handed.

The wikipedia article on it can be found here.

Nah I'm just saying the man-hating lesbian exists.. ie the bases of the stereotype.



Are you saying they don't exist.



I'm saying orientation could be behavior-based. Or entirely psychological in some cases.

I think it makes a lot of sense. It doesn't however prove that ALL homesexuals are the result of such instances.

No it wouldn't.

You are only proving the point. Everything about how the brain functions is caused by chemicals. Maybe not everything, but much of it.

Oh ok



No but I wasn't talking about your common garden variety 'man-hating lesbian' more the 'previously straight turned gay from a bad relationship man-hating lesbians'.

I haven't met any, but if you have, I suppose I'll have to take your word for it.

We actually discussed similar studies in another thread that described a possible evolutionary cause for a "gay" mutation on a genetic level. Pretty heavy duty stuff, and a lot of speculation, but very interesting and most importantly, viable theories. It had to do with the gay uncle theory, of less genetic competition, with a benefit of an extra pair of hands in the family to assist with living (hunting/gathering, that sort of thing).

I think you may have mis-read my post, Left Field. In the post to which you are now replying, I wrote: "A while back I posted two instances where people I know had "changed" their homosexual orientations ...." -- meaning, they changed from homosexual orientation towards heterosexual orientation -- by personal choice.

Are we talking on the same wave-length?
Karlis

Wow you obviously don't know a lot of lesbians then. I would say the vast majority of women don't hate men, they just REALLY LOVE women. There is a huge difference between what you are saying is the reason women are lesbian. Women aren't gay because they hate men, they are sexually attracted to women.

As for the OP article it mentions nothing about sexual orientation, it is about suicide which is usually from depression, which of course can change brain stucture, just as drugs that treat it can change it was well. I understand the connection the OP is attempting to make but its a stretch.

Sexuality is a spectrum, from very straight, totally non-gay, through to a middle ground of bisexuality, to the other end where people are firmly attracted and bonded to those of the same sex. There is no cure for being gay because it isn't a disease, or a thing that needs fixing. Throughout history humans (and animals) have had a fluid sexuality, depending on the individual, circumstance, experience and personal hard wiring, among many factors. The fact that so many straight people remain focused on discussion of whether its curable etc, tends to me to be a outlet for their continued discomfort at the idea of a same sex relationship. What others do who are straight in the bedroom doesn't seem to fascinate so much, so why does what gay people do seem to be such an interesting topic? Gays in fact do not do anything sexually that straight people don't do. In the end it comes to personal prejudice, and how open or closed minded you are. So the idea of "curing" who people are meant to be or are happy being who they are, shifts the weight of "what is the big deal" right on the shoulders of those asking about a cure.

I have known four different women that did.

One - Dating and sex in high school that was violent

Two - Broken engagement and following abortion in college

Three and Four - Really bad marriages

I've known three gay people on a personal level. One was a man who had been repeatedly raped by a male family member as a child. Another was a female who had been raped by her father as a child (which required her to undergo numerous operations to repair the damage), and the third was the male child of a marriage with crossed gender roles--the mother was very masculine, and the father was very feminine.

Personally, I think it's a little of both--nature and nuture--that makes the difference. Perhaps a predisposition exists at birth, but then environment makes the defining factor.

Interesting Bella.

I believe that we are able to change our wiring and even alter the chemicals. Be it through medication and therapy, or be it through prayer, or be it through positive or negative thinking, or a combination of all. We can change not only our brains wiring but the part that science does not understand. We can change every molecule in our very own body for consciousness is not just limited to the brain but is every part of our body and when we pass on consciousness does not remain trapped in the body. This is why plants that are given happy thoughts, music, or talked to last longer. This is why science has proven patients who are prayed for, does not matter how or who you pray to, heal faster even if they do not know they are not being prayed for.

Homosexuality does not need a cure but it is not something that is hard wired and unable to be changed. Neither is being straight. The article I posted twice earlier tells us there is no gay gene and that it has been debunked. There are genetic and environmental factors. As the one book that was written and discussed in the article it is not nature vs nurture but 'Nature via Nurture'. And as the article stated we can pass down certain traits that are not considered classic genetic traits but dispositions. Our thoughts are powerful and they lead to actions and create realities.

Ok. The homosexuals I have known...one was a lesbian that hated men and was sexually abused, the other was really "bi", as she liked men, just identified herself as a lesbian. The third, also bi, identified as a lesbian.
Gay men...have known a few, one was abused as a kid for sure, the other I think was just born gay, knew it at an early age.

As for the OP...mine...
I don't think it's a stretch to say, if people want to say sexual orientation is chemically pre existing in the brain, and we can show that abuse can change brain chemistry, that the same chemistry that controls sexuality can be changed. Are we saying that the brain chemistry that controls sexuality is static? While other chemistry is not? Is it just a political hot-button that people are afraid to acknowledge? I personally refuse to put the blinders on for either side of the debate. Just because I am not gay, does not mean I am anti-gay, and vice-versa. This is the science of sexuality, not the ethics or politics.

That still doesn't mean anything if they were abused, I know plenty of people who were abused as kids who aren't gay. Are they some how less affected by abuse and therefore didn't become gay? I'd say they don't feel that way, I'd say to the friends I've had who suffered horrible sexual abuse (of both genders by both genders) and didn't become gay were just as affected but they weren't gay to begin with ...so they aren't gay now...

I would expect the same, but there are many personal experiences that seem to correlate abuse and an effect on sexuality. I have seen studies that seem to indicate BOTH sides of this discussion. Personally, I am not sure where I stand on the issue.
It's just odd, that of the 5 gay people that I know personally, at least 2 were sexually abused as children. Of all the straight people I know well enough to be personal, I think I know of 3 or 4 that were abused sexually at some point in their childhood. Of course, the levels of abuse vary and I won't try to get into details, but the odds sure seem skewed, don't they?

I wanted to add, that studies like this one show:

http://www.mhamic.org/sources/mestonetal.htm
This is a weird site by the way, but it popped up and included the source material quoted. It actually has a lot of resources for exploring the more uncomfortable aspects of human sexuality.
This quote is from a study that actually points out it's own possible faults and limitations.

I know many gays and the majority came from awesome homes. I'm straight and man I wish I had so good ya know?

In my human sexuality class, I read that the area of the brain responsible for sex drive is different in size in gay people than straight. It's a very small difference, yet it exists. This suggests a brain chemistry/genetic link to sexual orientation.

I believe we are who we are from birth, whether gay or straight. I feel sad for those who "switched to straight" by religious organizations.

There is no point burying who you are, it's so great to be free and happy, even if the world mocks you.

wow that's alot of gay people ! lmao.

out of the easily 100+ lesbians I know. I know about 5 that were abused ( we have a suvivors group I belong too( all women) . we have in our small group of 40 --3 lesbians , one bi woman and the rest straight ( so they say).) While abuse may seem higher amoung lesbians I would think it's solely because abuse is higher among girls at 1out of 4. so a quarter of women . by those numbers we should be overrun with lesbians. Yet the numbers remain about the same . 10%. So why aren't all those other women lesbians ?

abuse does count for higher % of prostitution , drug addiction , suicide , promiscuity , depression, alcoholism and a lack of interest in sex as well. The difference ? Most of those abused lesbians are happy with their sexuality where those above in the effects listed are not. If lesbianism was a 'bad' effect from abuse you would think they wouldn't be happy. so much for that theory. ( by the way , most educated therapists agree they don't see any real connection between abuse and sexuality. Could it just be that a gay child was abused ? or isn't that possible in your world.)

Same with men. Most men abused as kids turn out straight.

now here's the big point. if abuse did this how ?? what chemicals were released in some but not the majority ? why would the bulk remain straight abused the same ? Or is it more likely those kids would have been gay abused or not ?

I do know a couple of women that called themselves lesbians who then married men ... the whole nine yards ..... one of them was an ex of mine. Then again I found she'll stay with anyone where she's more secure and doesn't have to work. Men or women. ( of course she's lying to the man she's now married to and having affairs with women on his dime) And the other one doesn't know what side of her bread to butter. With a woman for 12 years she's a lesbian. leaves her for a man , stays for a bit over a year and decides it was better with the woman she was with. I wouldn't date her if you paid me.

I do know some lesbians that hate men. why ? because men tend to stupidly think things like ' all they need is one good one' , because of lack of civil rights and men in politics. , because men tend to see women as less than. ( even if they don't realize it) . Plenty of reasons. but the first one is usually the most overwhelming - the sexual stupidity.

but for majority of the lesbians I know - happy and no history of abuse.

maybe the next 50 gay people you meet wouldn't have been abused or maybe your straight friends are lying --- lots do. plenty that were abused will never say they were. it's a shame thing. I think gay people are better at dealing with the false emotion of shame. they have learned there is nothing to be ashamed of . My brother didn't learn it until close to his death. I knew logically he was sexually abused , but he finally only admitted to it a few months before he died. He was straight and it was shameful. He just couldn't really get it that as a child it wasn't his fault.

I am Bi-sexual, as close to gay , besides being gay.

the older and hopefully wiser I get , the more I agree that the probability is the human race is wired for bi sexuality optimally ( and I really do hate admitting that - I'm a pick a side of the fence kind of thinker) . not that I want to jump any fences mind you ! But that humans , being of higher intelligence , is capable of deriving pleasure from both sexes honestly . Just thinking out loud. Make any sense ? I think my bi friends in debate are making me think more instead of remaining so closed minded. Still there is preference .

Yeah..that would've worked if I said all..however I said some... Just like you're saying... some..well, you said the majority..of course you don't know, so you might as well put 'some' but that's your belief which is alright; it is the belief section.
But the man-hating lesbian does exist... even Ripley agrees they exist.

yeah I agree - I know some. not many and mostly aging . the ladies from the 50's that were forced to stay in the closet. where they actually had a reason to be hateful.

but it's not the majority. I think more straight men hate women and straight women hate men than gays and lesbians. heck straight men hating and downgrading women is very rampant on these boards !!! so what's to love about them ? I would think most women would find them repulsive. and the only ones those men could get are those with no self esteem or prostitutes.

you also have to ask does the man hating lesbian have good reason too hate men ? and with the immaturity straight men tend to have about lesbians ( gay people in general really ) it's a pretty good reason - not to mention they ( straight men) hold most of the social / political power which tends to depress gays and lesbians so again the hate is understandable.

Wow some of the hatred for men is oozing.and no I do not think there is not a minority of men to reciprocate that hatred because there is. Fortunately the majority of men and women love each other and each other's company and can hold mutual respect for each other so my view is quite not so jaded.

As far as abuse leading to a variety of issues including homosexuality. Well this is a common perception for one. Secondly abuse is not widely reported and many who have been abused repress memory of it or just never admit it. So any judging of the theory based on how many homosexual people I know that will admit to it is not quite so valid. What do the researchers say?

well, we know the purpose of sexual pleasure from a biology perspective, is to act as a motivator for genetic reproduction.

Why can or should it not also be for pleasure?

In spirit world, which is the eternal life, We meld with whom ever we wish, showing a love which trandcends all loves.

This is where our sex on the physical plain derives from. For love.

It's as close to the spiritual Meld as two people can Come. No pun meant.

Love Omnaka

Ha ha.
Sorry, I don't travel in that crowd. Odds are there are plenty of gay people I know who I "don't know" are gay too. I'm speaking of the gay people that I know on a personal level. And can you see how if so many of the gay people I know HAVE been abused, that it would lead me to wonder if that abuse had something to do with being gay? Does it really seem like that much of a stretch?

Of course majority of Lesbians hate men. Most feminists are indeed, Lesbians!

Why do you think Hilary Clinton wants to become President? She is a feminist, and a lesbian. And she intends to lead her super-lesbian army to take over the world and enslave Manity! With pretty pink shackles and flowers, of course.

LMAO!

Not the only purpose, the Bonobo chimp along some other species including dolphins, use sex and sexual pleasure as a means of social calming. It isn't for procreation only they use it to keep the groups they are in calm and cohesive, and they do it a lot..

Humans too.

Love Omnaka

Well Im bisexual and I dont really know if I have some sort of chemical changes in my brain. I come from a perfectly normal family, mum and dad still married and happy, two brothers one sister no abuse of any kind.

Personally I think I just have a high sex drive and Im greedy