Hi all, still sort of new here, so I'm not sure if this topic has already been gone over. If so, apologies for the repeat.

Something that has become of particular interest to me over the last several months is the connection between our beliefs and our health, more so the connection between our beliefs and our luck with remaining healthy enough to remain conscious to hold any beliefs at all. One day about six months or so ago I got to thinking about Truth and how it pertains to people who have either limited states of consciousness or no state of consciousness at all. To me, Truth has to be true in all circumstances and at all times, truth cannot be something intermitten. If Truth is Truth it is present at all times and in all situations, well...according to yours truly.

Anyway- I got to thinking about how precarious our situation is in regard to belief/conviction. Our beliefs are very delicate things, fragile in the sense that they are entirely dependent on our state of health. I think of accident victims who go into coma and wake up with some loss of memory or total loss of memory. Everything these individuals held as True before the accident gets wiped out of their memory banks, beliefs that influenced the indiviuduals entire life are gone in a split second when steel crunches steel. They wake up without knowing their own names in some cases. Those beliefs are no longer true for that individual, and if recovery allows they can heal and create a new life, but that new life and the new beliefs adopted are then subject to the same circumstances as the original beliefs, they can be lost or wiped off the face of that individuals mind. Also, the original beliefs are then no longer True for that individual, which to me, means the new beliefs cannot be true either. Truth cannot change, and is everywhere at all times.

Then there are other individuals who through the genetic lottery pulled the winning numbers for Alzheimer's, or some other disease which deteriorates mental/emotional functioning, and also people in vegatative states. It's the same for them, the condition of the body dictates what stays and goes mentally and emotionally. The foundations of these peoples lives are not changed like the coma victim who woke up, the Alzheimer's truths are just taken away and not replaced at all.

If our beliefs are totally dependent on the health of our bodies and minds, then what weight can beliefs really hold in the end? What bearing can our beliefs on Truth carry when our beliefs are so easily broken and destroyed? Imagine Jesus getting a brain lesion in childhood and dying. The bible and all of Christianity are products of Jesus's body staying healthy and allowing him to live long enough to get the whole Christianity thing rolling. The Church is a product of Jesus's physical health. The same with Buddha and all other religious figures that we all look up to.

I take in all of these ideas about our physical/mental states and when I put it all together I feel I am forced to face the fact that mind and all of our beliefs, in the end, aren't going to mean diddly-squat within the context of searching for Truth.

If Truth is true then somehow everything fits within it, truth has to apply to everything everywhere at all times somehow, there has got to a common thread weaving it's way through everything that we just aren't seeing. Truth has to contain all possible states of health, but our beliefs, dependent on our state of health, cannot contain Truth. Our beliefs/convictions are not *the* thread we are searching for.

Well, that's it. I'm looking forward to reading any replies/thoughts.

Wow Jamielynn, I enjoyed reading that!

I would say we all percieve (like jerky old little tape recorders) and some are closer to 'the truth' than others. Which we only really get that validated by consensus or science. As you pointed out (kinda)- we need beliefs to function. But whether they are really truth or not is a different issue altogether. I gotta go to work asap but I will come back, cause this is an interesting topic

which , among other things is why I think free will is an illusion. Our lives have purpose and not always what we think that purpose is. ( usually it isn't what we think it is). We're on a path. a play that has already been written. a spiritual being having a human experience. the illusion of choice/free will being so that we are 'captured ' by the human experience. submersed in it . just like an actor caught up in a role .
we can only select one choice at any given moment. the one we were supposed to choose. the next minute it could be different , but then again that's a whole different moment , different 'choice' again only one. Sometimes we can see how it's all put together like a puzzle. How one life affects another. I think in that universal weaving is Truth.

That weaving having nothing to do with religion or convictions. How many times people have worked towards a certain end result to end up far from it ? Truth and religious belief I would think rarely have anything to do with one another . Religion just another way for humans to occupy themselves. the human experience.

I hope that sort of made sense.

Truth is written in the heart and it is simply the ability to want to do good or we can choose to deny Truth and do evil.

Hi Belle-

It does seem like we need belief in order to function doesn't it? I try to imagine what it must like for people coming out of coma with no memory, and I imagine the first thing they need to do is figure things out, i.e. they need to decide what is important and build their life according to whatever it is they decide is important. Isn't that what a belief is? Something that is important to us? Ideals/beliefs are strongly affected by the environment we grow up in. Compare that to an adult re-creating their life from scratch after memory loss. What would one in that situation base their choices on when there is no personal history (memory) to support or lend direction to their choices? It's hard to imagine. I think about things like that, and wonder at how it all seems like it would be like creating your own reality based on what ever it is you choose to call real or true. Which of course then can't be Truth.

For people who never suffer from such a situation they have a built in support and sense of direction from their families and community, so in a way their history is being written for them and constantly morphs according to their environment, and the ideas of others they encounter and adopt. In the end it's really no different than the post-coma patient creating their new reality, except the post-coma patient starts the process at an older age.

Thanks for chiming in.

-Jamie

Yes, you made sense Lt. Ripley.

I don't have a definite opinion at this time in regards to free will/choice. Circumstance seems to play such a huge role, a role that affects our decisions on a daily basis, so our choices do seem to be effects of effects of effects ad infinitum. But at the same time it also seems as if we don't have any choice but to choose, we cannot not live, which keeps the ball of interconnection rolling so that our choices do seem to be effects as well as affects. Hmmm...

Cheers Lt. Ripley :-)

-Jamie

It's interesting that you mention good and evil intentions Clovis, because when applied to a person in a vegatative state those intentions become a moot issue, they aren't capable of choosing. That is where things get really interesting to me. My belief is that all beings, everything in existence actually, are all equal as far as Truth goes, that there isn't one thing that is above another ultimately. I can't see choosing good over evil as being Truth, because the person in a vegatative state isn't aware of good and evil, so 'truth as goodness' only applies to healthy people who can act with goodness consciously, and truth cannot be something that only applies to certain cases. So I don't think that goodness is what Truth is ultimately.

My point was without the choice of choosing we are not truly conscience and then Truth itself is mute. Reality is not the same as Truth. It might be Reality someone is in a coma, has lost their memory and ability to function, or is truly not aware of their surroundings due to an illness. In such cases reality continues but their consciousness is affected in such a way they cannot choose between good or evil and thus do not have a conscience and also cannot know Truth.

The concepts of existence, goodness, and Truth almost go hand in hand.

Fortunately it will not be long before all our memories and beliefs can be stored indefinitely and downloaded into a nice new cloned body or artificial intelligence. Then neither trauma, or altzheimers, need permanently destroy the essential nature of self, and a close approximation of immortality will be achieved. Of course as we change our beliefs, and our memories, we will have to constantly down load them, to make sure we can restart at a point of our choice.

Vanilla Sky?

The underlying truth does apply to everything everywhere at all times. It is all about Love.

Many specific truths are relative to the person and their experience. Even the person who is out of their mind, as seen by others, has a frame of reference I suspect.

In the end we all return to the spirit beings that we are, in my belief system, and begin to consider another human expression.

John

You da Man John, I love your Love.

Love Omnaka

Very sensible and true bro Clovis.

Your snsitivities always impress me.

Even though we believe differently, it is much the same, I am very glad you got a chance to meet spirit. There is no other way I can define it.

Love Omnaka

Hi again Clovis-

I understood about truth being moot to an unconscious person, that's something I've put a lot of thought into. I am of the opinion that the person who is not aware of their surroundings is closer to truth than the person who is. The unconscious person is purely being with out thought of right/wrong good/bad etc. The unconscious person has no preconcieved notions regarding belief and how things should be, no conditioning. For this person things just are. Like animals and small children. This tells me that awareness of truth is not a requirement, that truth is not something subjected to our awareness of it. That's why I said that I believe truth is something that weaves it's way through everything, but not as what we think it is. It's present among the unconscious as well as the conscious, which says to me that the thread of consciousness/unconsciousness awareness/unawareness is not *the* thread we are seeking. It's got to be something that is common to everything.

cheers

I agree

No offense Mr. Walker, but that sounds horrible to me, lol! I don't think essential nature is something that can be downloaded. Are you meaning thoughts/memories are our essential nature?

Mr. Spera- I really liked your post and will reply later this evening. Today is my son's birthday and I have a lot to do to prepare. If I can sneak in somet ime for you I will.

Hi again Mr. Spera-



Love as a synonym for Truth I can accept, it's just that there is so much baggage attached to that word. I've run across so many people who promote love as the way to truth but then turn around and look down on others who don't 'do' love like it's supposed to be done according their definition of ultimate love. Love, if it's to be used a synonym for truth, cannot have any qualifications, cannot be pinned down as an act or behavior, because then we run up against ideas of correct acts and correct behavior which are judgments.



It's hard to know if the one who is out of their mind has any frame of reference, that's why it interested me so much. I was trying to challenge the belief that truth cannot be known, but then thought of the people with Alzheimer's and other conditions that have been mentioned and began to question how truth could be something that is known when there are people who aren't capable of knowing anything let alone what truth is. That would exclude them from truth and truth cannot be exclusive.

The person in a non-aware state is, imo, living love. Meaning I think they are pure in their non-conceptual state and we who are aware are pure being beneath our conceptual state. Although the acknowledgement of a conceptual state implies an awareness that it is conceptual, which then implies that one is aware that there cannot be a difference ultimately between the two states because the one is conceptual. If that makes sense.



I'm not sure about the end yet, but I've gained a lot by considering the ideas of others. There is much to consider.

-Jamie

Hi Jamie,

Yes the word love has a lot of baggage. Sometimes I think the words (admire with affection) have a clearer meaning.

I like the basic idea you present about how physical illness can affect a person's awareness and judgement/assesment of right and wrong let alone the deeper truth on any matter. I would suggest we take that concept to another level and apply it to the overall awareness of the human community. We are evolving and what we embrace as truth today will not be the same 4,000 years from today. I say that because look how it has changed from what it was 4,000 years ago.

So if humanity can see itself 44,000 years from today, the science and human DNA evolving process, with all the current day truths, will I suspect be a bit different. That is except for the one underlying principal that never changes. The divine love for humanity.

I do hope your son has a very happy birthday today.

John

I agree that what goes for the individual applies to the collective as well. It will be interesting to see what just the next few decades will bring in regards to belief.



Thank you John, he's still young enough that he's not to hard to please, he had a great day.

Yes thats what we are. Humans are their thoughts and memories. Even your apparent concern for this idea is just a thought born out of your human capacity to think, evaluate, and philosophise.

Theres nothing horrible about it.From before birth our brains process data coming into them. The brains have a built in capacity to do this, but they also learn to do so better and more efficiently with experience and practice. The same capacity which allows this processing to occur creates our conscious and subconscious"minds"

Scientists are in the process now of reconstructing every human thought process and mapping the human brain. They are already at the point where they can create and implant ärtificial "memories" or remove particular memories. The reasons for this are therapeutic eg removing traumatic memories or restoring memories lost through damage to the brain, but eventually they will lead to the capacity to create, store and reproduce all human memories. The physical capacity to think and create new memories is perhaps more challenging, but the scientists working on this believe they will have achieved it in less than 20 years.

This is no more a bad or scary thing than tissue transplants or organ transplants.

Spirituality, like sexuality, is most likely genetically hardwired into humans, in the case of spirituality through their brains structure and purpose (A human being with proper brain function is incapable of not thinking philosophically and spiritually.) Either creation or evolution has made our brains this way. Because we have the ability to think and speak, and also make all the incremental thought processes necessary to achieve those very complex tasks, we inevitably ask ourselves the big questions of who we are, where we come from, and what, if any, is our ultimate purpose.

The brain/mind is a beautiful and powerful instrument, and we are really only just beginning to understand it and its full capacities

So if your thoughts and processing capacity, along with your memories, were transferred to either a cloned body or a computer, then that would be just as much you, as who you are now.

Whether this can be done ethically, or in a way that people can accept the psychological trauma involved, are other questions. However, today we accept both artificial skin grown in a lab and other peoples or even animal organs to survive, and i believe that society, including most individuals, will be happy to accept these conditions to gain an extended life of perhaps many centuries.

Personally i would find life in a fit android body, with my intelligence memories and processing power transferred and perhaps enhanced into an artificial brain not just acceptable , but actually quite a tempting experience. Not only would i still be me, but i would have the possibility of extending that me into a future i very much want to see and experience.

If it was possible to grow clones without self awareness then i would be more than happy to be transfwerred into a clone, but i dont want to have my consciousness forcibly replace the existing consciousness of another. To me, that would be more murder than killing a human body from which the consciousness was salvageable. And if my consciousness was transferred while i was still alive then indeed my existing body might need to be euthanised if it was left as a non sentient shell.(But then again the memories can be replicated, so the old me could continue to live out its natural existence, while the new me extended out into a new future.)

As with human cloning, this will be technically achievable before we, as humans are psychologically or ethically prepared for it to occur, but within one generation, or at most two, transferrence of consciousness into either an artificial or cloned host will be quite practicable

they are man made concepts. The Truth just may be far different than you want or imagine or read it to be.

WOW! Mr. Walker you just introduced me to a branch of science I didn't know existed! I'd heard talk of this but didn't know there was anything to it beyond it being an idea being tossed around. I didn't know there was actual work being done toward acheiving it.



That is the thought I had when I said that memory transfer sounded horrible. I can't imagine it being possible. I mean, in order to become aware with another persons self awareness a cloned body would require the capacity to sustain awareness in the first place, which to me, sounds like awareness would then be a natural outcome of producing a clone with the capacity for it. If the capacity is created then awareness would naturally result, the capacity and awareness being one and the same imo, I can't see it being otherwise.

If it does becomes possible it would be very tempting. Technology would have to keep pace and remain advanced enough to resolve the strains an enormous immortal population would place upon the planet. This is all very fascinating, thanks for introducing it to me.



One has to wonder though, if the new body wouldn't have an influence/effect on what 'me' feels like. Interesting.

-Jamie

Yes the possibilities are intriguing. I've been reading about them hypothetically in science fiction since the 1950's and it would appear they will actually come to fruition just a few years too late to do me any good lol. All the points you raise are good ones. (I dont think overpopulation will be an issue given that by the middle of this century the worlds fertility rate is likely to drop below replacement level, and the world s population will begin to decrease). Secondly, and sadly, this would probably be only available to people in western societies(and in those societies reproductive rates have for many years been below replacement level)

I see through the eyes of a person whose physical health and capabilities can only continue to decline. I am also a person to whom mental capacity is more important than physical capacity. I could live without taste smell etc if it meant i could still think.

However, certainly a life without those stimuli would create a different self awareness. So probably the sensations and memories of those physical elements would be reproduced artificially to help keep us human.

In fact, there is some argument whether we will be human. Some argue it is just a further step along the human evolutiionary path, others argue it is a complete new species in evolutionary terms, and that we would no longer be truly human. My belief, as expressed before, is that it is our sentient self awareness which defines and determines our humanity, and like the space ships in ann mcaffrey's novels, where a human mind is attached physically to run all the operations of the ship, i think humanity will eventually come in many shapes and forms unrecognisable to us today.

The issue of prior awareness in clones is an interestng one, and concerns me. It depends a bit how the clones are grown and developed. If they are matured very quickly, in a sleeping state like an induced coma, then possibly self awareness would not develop. I dont recommend or support such a process but it is possible.

Also if a clone is a part of you and you give prior consent then its memories might legally be over ridden or replaced by yours.

This sounds unethical, but societies accept abortion, where an incomplete, yet otherwise human being, is completely destroyed, mind and body, at the discretion of the mothers needs. Any society which can accept the logic of that, will probably jump at the idea of mind wiping a second version of them selves to allow themselves continued life.

If it could be guaranteed that the clone would be entirely made from my own body, I believe I would be ok with an attempt at mind wipe. I mean, if it's entirely composed of my own 'material' it would be all me anyway. Maybe this will be possible for my children, I'd like to be around to see how this turns out, but if not I'm ok with that. I'd like to experience the full spectrum of life both physically, emotionally, and mentally from both the young and older perspectives. I'm 36 and am getting more curious about the aging process and it's effects.

In your view.

The Truth just may be far different than you want or imagine or read it to be. uuummmm I'm willing to put money on it. Those that think they know the truth usually get bit in the rear.

Seems to be you are the only one claiming you know the truth as it should be for all and are dismissing other people's views. Not something I am willing to wager on myself.

I think Truth is a very individualistic thing. nothing a man nor book can dictate.

Many do find truth in a book, many which are not even the Bible, so to each their own.

true , but I don't know anyone who doesn't cherry pick those books. Truth like happiness is better left an inside job I think.