You very well make a point though and I have questioned my own path many times and still do. Nor do I fail to to recognize others feel maybe I am on the wrong path. But what they and I can recognize that the paths we choose are right for us as individuals and that is what we both can respect in each other there is no issue. Some choose no path as far as religion and if that works for them then more power to them and you.

Anyway I will lurk around in case anyone wants to solely discuss the goddess or other Pagan concepts. Not only is it a more interesting concept without degenerating into debates but I would rather foster understanding of what Paganism is for all rather than engage in debates of the validity of each path. Cause as you can tell I believe their path is quite valid for them so no discussion is necessary on that.

[quote name='Clovis' date='May 10 2008, 10:19 AM' post='2291838']


Anyway I will lurk around in case anyone wants to solely discuss the goddess or other Pagan concepts. Not only is it a more interesting concept without degenerating into debates but I would rather foster understanding of what Paganism is for all rather than engage in debates of the validity of each path. Cause as you can tell I believe their path is quite valid for them so no discussion is necessary on that.






I agree I thought this was a great thread untill..........well you know.

I dont know about you guys, but I think if I called my mom this Id get a kick in mine.......


"""""Behold, Lucius, I have arrived. Thy weeping and prayers have moved me to succour thee. I am she that is the natural mother of all things, the Mistress and Governess of all the Elements, the initial Progenitrix of all things, the Chief of powers divine, Queen of Heaven, the First of the Gods celestial, the light of the Goddesses. At my will, the planets of the air, the wholesome winds of the Seas, and the silences of hell are disposed; my name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world in various manners, in various customs and in many names,

for the Phrygians call me the Cybele|Mother of the Gods... (The Golden Ass) """"
^^^^^^^^

Joey, you really have disapointed me. My Gods have nothing to do with your Satan. Satan is a Christian construct and is therefore only about 1500 years old. He has nothing do do with my religion. When I honor the my Gods and Goddesses with a statue the statue is not the actual God. I simply use it to honor my God. You honor your God your way I do mine my way. Try to keep an open mine.

Clovis,

One thing about the Pagan Gods is that depending on what culture is telling the story it does appear at times to change. Isis in some stories was thought to be the mother. There are other names she is called by, Artemis, Diana, Cerridwen, Melusine, Demeter. So has many many other names as well but in the end she is the Goddess

............<<>> Here are a few questions for you from My God to your gods.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth ? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements ? Surely you know ! Or who stretch the line upon it ?
To what were its foundations fastened ? Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy ?
"Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;
When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;
When I said, 'This far you may come, but on farther, And here your proud waves must stop !'
Have you commanded the morning since our days began, And caused the dawn to know its place.
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it ?
It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.
From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken.
Have you entered the springs of the sea ? Or have you walked in search of the depths ?
Have the gates of death been revealed to you ? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death ?
Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth ? Tell Me, if you know all this.
Where is the way to the dwelling of light ? And darkness, where is its place.
That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home ?
Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great ?
Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail.
Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war ?

I can go on, But I will stop here. The God of Heaven Has given His People a structural Foundation. For the past, present and future. As I can see in this topic the gods of pagans did not create anything. Except the doctrine they serve....................Joey.

Dude your not even worth responding to anymore so listen up this is the last time I'll not respond to you on anything again. These are your questions not your Gods they came from you. Like I have said more then once if your religion & your God is the truth then why wipe out the Pagans of old? I'd say it was because they knew something that people who followed your religion did not. Please explain why our holidays are now yours. Or why Christians to this very day use Pagan symbols. OR how about why Christians used the Pentgram..I respect your belives but it seems you can not do the same. I wish you luck with your hate for others outside of your belief.

Like other here have said you took the low road with a thread that start out peacefully & turned it into something else... not that this surprised me Again you keep proving my point on how typical some Christians can be.

.............<<>> 'Darkwind' I am sorry if I disappointed you. But when i die I will stand before (The Great White Judgment Throne) and give an account to Jesus Christ for My live. And you won't be there to defend Me. I will be there by myself..................Joey.

Too bad because I love this topic but it's a shame that someone so closed mined is trying to ruin it.

............<<>>And you didn't respect anything. Go back and read your old posts. That you posted against all the Christians. You were mean, rude, and hateful and ran us all into the ground. You spit in our Gods face. So read what you posted and then come and tell me how (Peaceful) you were. I have even pleaded with you in the past to please quit slamming our God and the People of God. But yet you just laughed at us as if we were just a bunch of dirty dogs. I have news for you we are the children of God so why can't you just accept that and we will accept your beliefs.
Here is a quote from your post #83.
"I fine it sad that you are running to put your head in the sand." Because you can't defend your beliefs. And as for Christians and pagans having some similar beliefs. Here is your answer. When the God of Heaven creates something pure and (Holy). The god of this world will always create a counter fit worship similar to the (True Word of God) to confuse the people, and lead them astray. To false doctrine of devil and demons. So now I will end this topic because the God of Heaven has proved his point....................Joey.

I never said ALL I said some your wrong about what you said in this thread & others have pointed it out to you even other Christians that should tell you something. Your are putting your head in the sand you refuse to see other POV. Your the only Christian here whos having a problem with this, you could take a lesson from them.

Sadly you ruined what was a very good topic & because of that this thread might die off because of you being so closed mined.

Wow. A LOT happened since I last came on. Where to begin??
I guess I'll start with Clovis' lengthy post. I won't quote ALL of it [that would make the thread about 5 pages longer] but I'll reply to it more or less in order if I can.

Alright. I realized after some looking around that I mistakenly blended Joe's utterly absurd theory with Hislop's. There are similarities, and obviously Joe took some things from Hislop. So you're right, Hislop's theory does not necessarily require a literal belief in the Old Testament. Joe's, on the other hand, is pretty much entirely "grounded" in the Old Testament. So my argument thus stands strong in the sense it should have been placed in. As for Hislop himself, it would be childlike and naive to say that his own (very strong and even more unreasonable) beliefs did not influence his...non-thoughts...on this matter. One has to simply keep things in perspective. Hislop was a minister who believed that Roman Catholicism (as well as all the Eastern Orthodox churches) were the work of Satan, while ALL the Protestant sects of Christianity were unquestionably right and worshiped the "real" Jesus and the "real" God. Is that an extremist view? I think it is. Thus at least in my opinion it is logical to disregard his opinion, just as one might disregard the opinion of Osama Bin Laden or Jerry Falwell.

As far as syncretism goes? Of course syncretism exists! That's what I was getting at in parts of the post you replied to! Cultures influence eachother. It is a big part of the way that whole "civilization" thing works.
I remember that quote from the Golden Ass - I have read it also. Keep in mind that this novel was written LONG after the Egyptian civilization was in its prime. The Cult Of Isis in Rome was one of the most popular religions in Rome at that time. The main character of the novel, if I remember correctly, actually joined the cult of Isis after his having been transformed back to his human form. Chances are that the quote you cited was intended by Apuleius to be rather significant for the main character.

Now for Semiramis herself. I am going to begin by quoting the very first sentence from the article you posted from Neohumanism.org:
"Semiramis (c. 800 BC) also known as Semiramide or Semiramida, was a famous Assyrian princess, round whose personality a mass of legend has accumulated."

I think we can all agree there is an obvious significance to this statement. Semiramis in name may have been a real figure, but certainly very little [if any] of what is told in stories about her is true.
When I said that Semiramis is acknowledged as a non-historical figure, I was referring to the way in which she is portrayed in legends. So I see no issue with saying that she is fictional as is significant for our purposes in this thread.

I agree, not being EXACTLY THE SAME GODDESS does not mean that they are not at all connected. I don't know if you noticed the similarities I noted and the reasons (in my opinion) for them? Did you miss the connection there?
I know quite a lot about the Roman pantheon myself; please note I did not say ALL Roman gods were direct copies; I said many were. And indeed many were. They did have quite a few native concepts that were always worshipped at the same time, however, including animistic spirits, etc.
One culture blending pieces of one of another culture's deities into the image of one of their own does not mean that the two were all of a sudden completely merged. Certainly from a historical perspective that would just not work. Isis and Venus for instance originated in very different contexts, for very different purposes. It is ok that other cultures would blend them for ease of worship or other reasons; if it works for them it works. But they should never historically be seen as the same goddess.

Once again, in reference to your attempt to link Isis with Aphrodite/Venus, I am not referring to the way other cultures merged them together; I am referring to them in their native contexts.

I will agree with you on this point also: during Ptolemy's rule, the Egyptian pantheon changed drastically and thus comparisons were able to be made between Greek goddesses and Egyptian ones. The obvious reason for this? Massive amounts of Greek influence.

To your statement on Cybele: we are addressing what these goddesses were primarily associated with, not secondary myths or genealogical patterns. That would just make a giant mess of things for both of us (and the thread). Cybele can be seen as much more similar to Gaia than to Aphrodite. It's fine that she was referred to as the "goddess mother." That does not make her the same deity as Isis or anyone else. I completely do not comprehend your statement that the priests of Cybele castrated themselves during fertility rites. Is that really what you were getting at? Did I read that wrong? Also, thank you for agreeing with me at the end of that paragraph in saying that Cybele cannot be seen as a representation of Venus.

As far as pagan worship of "the goddess"? To the best of my knowledge that is mainly a Wiccan or Wiccan-influenced conception. A few old friends of mine are Wiccans (one of them is the daughter of a High Priestess), and the understanding I got from them as to this concept is not at all that they equate every goddess of every mythological tree. It seems to me that they are more invoking a general "female" energy/deity. It is not meant to be a representation of every single goddess known to man. I suppose you might be able to think of it in terms of the concept of Yin and Yang - everything can be seen as part of a balance, and in this case the "goddess" is referring to everything female.

I am not "bashing" your views, Clovis. That was never my intent at all. I have a fair amount of respect for you, because you respect others and their beliefs. I am simply enraged when someone shows no respect for the beliefs of others, as Joe did in this thread, and especially to attempt to JUDGE a completely different religion by one's own religion, and deem the other to have been created by that religion's antagonist. Keep in mind that Joe also judged the beliefs of Omnaka by his own, and deemed them to be utterly invalid as well.

I don't view your god as a "baby killer" or any such thing as you imply. It is not my place to judge your religion, just as it is not Joe's to judge mine.

Joe -
It boggles my mind how you can read the post that I directed toward you, infer the amount of thought I put into my argument, and then respond by citing verses from your holy book, which I simply don't believe in. I haven't responded to any of your statements by quoting a John Coltrane solo or a late Beethoven piece, have I? That's the equivalent of what you just did, in my eyes. And for the record, it would have been quite different if you had actually given me an explanation of these verses, what they mean to you, and how they apply to this topic, rather than just dump verse numbers on us.

By the way, Joe, I'm STILL waiting for you to elaborate on some very interesting statements you made in post #79 of this thread. Here, let me refresh your (and everybody else's) memory:

"As you can see the pagan religion had to start some were and you can't get a straight from pagan believers. Through out the Bible and even through these days God is always dealing with the people who worship Baal and other so called gods for as you can see it is just Satan giving new names to old ways..."

I don't know if you noticed, but the quote you posted from Norwood that you apparently took offense to and in which, according to you, he was acting as an aggressor toward you? Yeah. That came AFTER you made these rather interesting statements.

Ok, it is now 1:43AM on my clock. I have had a very long week, and I am going to sleep.

[quote name='Thisisnotmyname' date='May 11 2008, 05:30 AM' post='2292925']

As far as pagan worship of "the goddess"? To the best of my knowledge that is mainly a Wiccan or Wiccan-influenced conception. A few old friends of mine are Wiccans (one of them is the daughter of a High Priestess), and the understanding I got from them as to this concept is not at all that they equate every goddess of every mythological tree. It seems to me that they are more invoking a general "female" energy/deity. It is not meant to be a representation of every single goddess known to man. I suppose you might be able to think of it in terms of the concept of Yin and Yang - everything can be seen as part of a balance, and in this case the "goddess" is referring to everything female.


I do not agree with you that the Goddess is a Wiccan conception, while the Goddess has many names her Altar's have been dated back to 165-156 BCE.

Isis is one of her more popular names shes is an Egyptian deity which makes her very old.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion


Stories have been told of Witchcraft has early has 700 B.C.E. Even though many of the tales are fictional, you must remember that most tales of fiction are based on certain facts. Witches typically worshiped the mother Goddess. I have read Acradia or Gospel of the Witches all the way thought yet but here is a quote from it.


When I shall have departed from this world,
Whenever ye have need of anything,
Once in the month, and when the moon is full,
Ye shall assemble in some desert place,
Or in a forest all together join
To adore the potent spirit of your queen,
My mother, great Diana. She who fain
Would learn all sorcery yet has not won
Its deepest secrets, them my mother will
Teach her, in truth all things as yet unknown.
And ye shall all be freed from slavery,
And so ye shall be free in everything; p. 6
And as the sign that ye are truly free,
Ye shall be naked in your rites, both men
And women also: this shall last until
The last of your oppressors shall be dead;
And ye shall make the game of Benevento,
Extinguishing the lights, and after that
Shall hold your supper thus:



There are temples in her name that date back to 356 B.C some even further.


I should of asked which Pagans he was refering to. Wiccans, Asatru or Santerians, Druids? Because even though we have the same core belifes we still have different ideas, although they do lead to the same place.


Heres some very intresting videos on Pagans.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtnfEWn6Rn0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8JjEZNFKXk...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3lgASjDtxY...feature=related


It's not so much about the Gods but how they lived, I know it's a bit off topic but it's still very intresting...

These are parts 1-3 but there are more.

actually someone said you were real sick ....... I guess that explains why you've become even more judgemental and hateful and bigoted.

So if you feel this way why are you asking questions about my religion? I am not Christian so I don't believe in the great white judgment throne so it is not something I am going to worry about.

I stand corrected, Norwood. I have to admit I don't know very much about the old witchcraft traditions.

Greeting thisisnotmyname. I do believe we have consensus between each other except for a few points. Indeed each goddess and god had local origins that were quite specific to their locality, culture, and experience. It will be exaggerating to say but not far off the mark that every hill and every village had their own version of a Baal or a Venus or whatever divinity was most popular in their area under whatever name.

Where our views diverge is that these independent tribes and even the villages and cities within the tribes, did not independently derive the concept of divinity just on their own, without any knowledge that a neighboring town did not have their own goddesses. We have to understand that many of the divinities were thought to reside on a certain hill or temple, and thus they were not viewed always as universal or omnipotent as we might view our divinities today. Since they could not be in all places at one time and to solve what they viewed as an issue they then developed their own version of Baal or Venus. I am not saying there is no other divinities besides Baal or Venus but just using them as an example.

What is more important is where did the notion of divinity, gods and goddesses, develop? It had to be farther back in antiquity, before written record, and the memory of them was carried over through the oral tradition. In time the memory that perhaps they were universal was forgotten so each village developed a localized version. Later as cultures began to merge so did their divinities until they became to be seen as the same again.

This of course does not take into account that one who worshiped other divinities outside of nature worship all did see the sun god as the same 'world over' for lack of a better term. This does not also take into account how divinity itself was developed, there are many theories, some claim it was through the process of respecting elders, and in turn respecting ancestors and believing they were still with us in spirit, then in time deifying them. There are other theories as well but there are no records.





norwood is right in that the concept of 'the goddess' is not a modern invention. It goes back as far maybe as the various Venus figures (including Willendorf) even though the concept of Venus had not been developed. We might never know the exact context which they were created, if they were localized, but many represent fertility.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines

These might be the earliest sign of them though that is in dispute. Either way it might also be controversial and not substantiated through proven scholarship but I believe the very first sentient humans worshiped something. Be if God or gods and goddesses it is not a stretch to then believe that as mankind spread that they took with them these earliest memories and every god and goddesses since then have just been replays of the original. Archetype in the truest sense of the word.

That is just a theory but one that has come full circle in the way many view 'the goddess' today as one all encompassing energy of the feminine and all that that entails. It has been interpreted and reinterpreted many times including through the most modern feminist movement. The goddess is elusive, her history, her mystery, her meaning, and her being.

My interest, especially from a scholastic viewpoint, first arose within me in mentioning of Artemis of the Ephisians in the Bible in the Acts 19. We can only imagine what people saw when they came from afar and witnessed this wonder of the world. Did they just see a localized goddess or was she something more. Most likely they saw Diana as the huntress and not just a generic concept of 'the goddess' but even so there is nothing generic about it even if they did see more.

Many view our Holy Spirit as a representation of the goddess and I have looked into it and even the dove she is represented as is a symbol of a goddess. I do not for a second view the Spirit as a goddess though but do realize that is a theory some hold. Regardless though when the men of Acts began to spread the Word and the Spirit a great commotion arose that they were blaspheming Artemis of the Ephisians. This was after two years of Paul and others into their ministry within the region.

At first it was the craftsmen who made images of Diana who saw a decline in business that became dissatisfied and turned a very strong vocal crowd against those of the Word. It is true too that one who follows the Word should not follow the goddess but that does not mean those of the Word should attack the goddess or those who worship her. Our witness and our Spirit without words should stand the test and if others choose the Word so be it and if they remain with the goddess so be it. We should not allow the worship of another within our temples but the world at large is not our temple nor should be viewed as such. This is not my example but the example of the first Israelites who destroyed pagan worship within their own territory. This is the example of the first Christians who did not blaspheme the goddess. Just as the charges against them of this were not true we should strive for that example as well towards all other belief systems.

yeah . you'll be giving an account while Dark wind is having a brew inside.

Ahh, yes at in the realm (pub) of the Ancestors. Drinks on me!

lol may i come?

Sure, everyone is welcome even Christians. LOL

In Norse mythology and religion those fallen in battle are escorted by the Valkyries to Valhalla. By day they fight in battle and by night they feast and drink until drunk. Not sure if any other Pagan beliefs have an afterparty.

The Celts did too. It is called the realm of the Ancestors. You're suppose to be a hero to go there. When we give offerings to the ancestors we give mead or ale. It is also a place to rest and wait for rebirth.
Cheers.