I don't think so maybe he just wants to know were we all stand.

I don't call the elements in ritual any more. I call the Well, the Fire and the Tree. The Well represents the spring of life, waters of creation. Fire is the spirit within us. The Tree represents the Universe above us and below us. If I am ask to an element in a ritual I am happy to step up and do it. From what I have read the Celts worked in threes, the Etruscans worked with the four elements or directions which is most likely were Gardner got it for his rituals. I might me wrong but it works for me spiritually.

All are parts of one.

The first part of your statement that implies much is still 'in tact' does not necessarily lend itself to the last part that statement 'borrowed from known practices amongst different cultures". You can take many sources of modern religions and blend them together and the developed unique outlook that would be presented would resemble nothing whatsoever of any of the originals. In fact this is what much of the Modern New Age does. Nothing wrong with that but it is disingenuous to claim the earlier practices are still in tact. Even if much of what is presented today was gleaned from one culture using 'art, poetry, folklore, history' that would still not lead to an accurate reconstruction.

As far as some of the knowledge not being lost and past down in whole or partial form I have alluded to that point several times already so am not disagreeing. Though much of Eurocentric Paganism and Neopaganism conists wholly of reconstructionist efforts and those outnumber the passed down traditions.

The Wiccan Rede itself, one of the most influential and important part of Wicca, cannot be proven to be dated before 1946.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_rede#Dating_the_Rede

The rule of three cannot be dated before a 1949 novel by Gardener, that is a work of fiction, so anyone using the rule of three is in fact basing their religion on fiction:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Three_%28Wiccan%29

This is a review from Amazon.com about the book:



http://www.amazon.com/High-Magics-Aid-Gera...r/dp/0963065785

The 'Old Religion' is really not that old if the term was only coined in the 1920s.



The continuity of Iolo Morganwg's Druid's Prayer is concluded to be nonexistent.



There is also the possibility of 'folklore' entering in modern belief sets though some might claim they are ancient they can usually be found to be dated not so long ago.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism#Historicity

There is nothing wrong with attempting to reconstruct an older religion but we should know the truth about it all. Having no 'strict doctrine' and having to 'borrow from different cultures' completely contradicts maintaining any continuity or establishing a claim that the current traditions are from antiquity rather than modern reconstructs. If anyone has proof it would be nice to see but really anyone can write a book and say this is an ancient religion or path but if other sources cannot be found to date them to the past they are mere modern invention. And again there is nothing wrong with that either but it isn't exactly ancient.


If anyone believe this wrong then please disabuse me and inform me of some of the traditions that have been passed down and are practiced by the majority today. Information on not so popular traditions are welcome but the sole focus of this post is on modern Eurocentric Paganism and Neopaganism as practiced by the majority. I would love to understand better and be able to differentiate what has been passed down from long ago and what is more modern. As an educational exercise nothing would please me more to gain a better understanding.

His last statement sounded like he was waiting for someone to slip up.

wouldn't peoples who 'worshipped' things like the Venus of Willendorf 24,000–22,000 BC ( earth mothers / birth) as well as other 'Venus'" . they symboled fertility . were carried objects .




Small prehistoric female figurines commonly called “Venuses” have been uncovered throughout Europe. Twenty-one Venuses have been unearthed in “Siberia via the Ukraine, Morovia, Austria, Rhineland, Baden, Belgium, Italy, and France into the heart of the Pyrenees” . These Venuses, however, do not all fall into the same visual style as that of arguably the most famous Venus: The Venus of Willendorf. Many Venuses render the female form as obese, faceless, with massive breasts and torsos, but upon closer inspection it is clear that the prehistoric Venuses may be divided up into several unique categories. Some of the Venuses were hyper-stylized, others functioned as an object of ornamentation, and many were only centimeters in size so that they may be easily transportable and fit nicely into the palm of the owner’s hand. Because we have no written record describing the purpose of the Venuses, one may only analyze the culture in which the Venuses existed in order to find clues of their significance and what these women symbolized. In turn, these works of art also serve to offer unique insight into what type of life men and women led during Prehistoric times and their own concept of religion.


http://www.students.sbc.edu/watson08/Venuses%20essay.htm

I thought this part of the above post should be highlighted.



http://www.students.sbc.edu/watson08/Venuses%20essay.htm

but the fact that man at that time period even held something 'sacred' or religious in nature or even superstitious says paganism is immensely old. Since man saw the sun and moon I would think.

Man has walked on this earth for longer than before recorded history. Even the archaeologists know very little about the cultural beliefs and practices of early man. We assume that they had some sort of transcendent belief because of the manner in which they buried their dead.

It is not until the agricultural developments around 10,000 BCE that man begins to have a sense of cultural identity. As mankind started living in large groups, it is highly probable that the rudiments of what we, today, call "religion" began to formulate. This is not to say there weren't belief structures before societal man.


Venus of Willendorf made between 30000 and 25000 and is thought to be a Goddess statue. Interest in Her as well as other Venus Figures have resurfaced due to Neopaganism. Around 25000 B.C More"Venus" figurines emerge in Europe. The data collected about these figurines from both within Europe and the Near-East suggest that the figurines could have been used for a variety of purposes.

Well it is old but the continuity or lineage from there to here is just not there in the way most Neopagans construct their belief sets. The Venus of Willendorf does not even represent Venus since the concept of Venus as a goddess had not yet been conceptualized. Just because that statue exists and many other clues that point to ancient beliefs does not imply that what is considered Neopagan belief today is anything like what was believed back then.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_willendorf

As another example this is what norwood posted earlier from an article:



If anyone researches either Lascaux or Altamira they can see that the cave paintings and the deposits found within the sediment at those sites do not even date that far back. To put it bluntly the person who wrote that article was either lying or simply not knowledgeable of the truth. There was even a period of 2000 years when there was no activity and then 13000 years ago that caved was sealed. There still lies the question of how much of what they believed do we actually know and can then say we are doing things as they did? The answer is not much if anything at all. Sure someone can crawl into a cave today but the experience, reasons, rituals, and traditions would not be the same.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamira_%28cave%29

The Lascaux painting also does not go as far back as what the article on druidism claimed. And even then we have no way of knowing the exact beliefs of the early inhabitants or visitors to those caves based off of paintings. Should we base all our modern religions off of paintings alone?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux

On the topic of druids themselves it is wrong to say they have a tradition that dates back 25,000 years ago.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druids#History

The earliest druids could even be traced back themselves is to La Tene culture but as we can see above the whole of modern scholarship cannot find any links between there to here. Much less can they find direct links to any periods before La Tene that were then carried over into La Tene.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druids

The La Tene culture itself does not date back 25000 years, as the article norwood provided states druidism does, so druidism does not date that far back. Most will agree druids are a Celtic concept but the Celts themselves do not even date back 25000 years.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Tene_culture

If the defenders of druidism dating back to antiquity want to ignore the whole post above then what about this which states the earliest it can be dated back to is the 18th century?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druids#Neo-druidism

There is nothing wrong with putting your faith in a modern construct. That should not be a reason as I stated in my initial post to feel inadequate compared to those whose beliefs can be dated back to antiquity such as those who worship the God of the Israelites. But we should not be lying to ourselves that the way we view druidism today dates back to antiquity when in fact it does not.

As far as the OP and what joey asked:



Not far at all. And again there is nothing wrong with that but to pass it off to the masses as otherwise when it comes to Neodruidism and Neopaganism is quite unfair. We should know exactly what we worship and where it comes and then it should not lessen any of our beliefs in the least. All religions had a start somewhere it does not matter if it was in antiquity or if it was three hundred years ago or even ten years ago. Each one is every bit as valid as the other IMHO. But we should strive to keep it real.

Thank you Omanka,
In this unsetteld world and times...we all need all the blessing we can get... We should put aside who is from what religion, or whos beleifs are what, and just accept the love and warm wish those bestow upon us.... There IS such a shortage of Love in this world.

Blessings to you too.....

yet christianity is not the same as it was in antiquity. how much of pagan belief has it incorporated ? christmas , easter , to name a few traditions now mostly viewed as christian.

I follow the Book and it says nothing about Christmas or Easter. You have a point as far as the culture of Christianity but how does that point figure at all into this thread? Lets not make this a Pagan vs Christian thread and keep it focused on Paganism. After all we have so many threads that explore Christianity and so few that explore Paganism and Neopaganism. I am not attacking either as well just wanting to conclusively discover the truth of the matter regarding the topics of this thread.

Can we all agree on one thing....We can learn from each other (and Im not pointing fingers,just a general statement) if we dont argue and listen more? Im not saying any one is arguing (yet) but just nipping the bud before it starts... It always seems to.

Definitely agreeing with you there WFTL. This should not be about arguing at all or someone getting defensive and feeling they need to attack Christianity to compensate. I have already walked away from this thread learning a couple of things I did not know before thanks to Lady O and norwood. If the spirit of truth can be maintained and the spirit of divisiveness can be suppressed I am sure there might be a few more things to be learned for those wanting to learn and not simply debate.

If you had understood my post,you would not have had to bother with posting.I'll explain it to you slowly:

#1: There are families which still follow the old ways,since the knowledge of the old ways has passed down through the family.In some cases,those who use the knowledge know where it came from,while others are unsure...they just know that it's tradition.

#2: Some (notice...it's bolded) Pagans do borrow rituals and practices from other cultures.Other (again,bolded) Pagans follow the knowledge that has been passed down through their families.There are also those who do not borrow,and who do not belong to a lineage where knowledge has been passed down.These are the ones who "reconstruct" from the art,poetry,music,folklore,history...etc.

#3: Some of those who borrow or "reconstruct" do end up mingling with those who have had knowledge passed through the family.It's likely that the former would learn at least a few things from the latter.

Now can you understand?

The Lascaux painting also does not go as far back as what the article on druidism claimed. And even then we have no way of knowing the exact beliefs of the early inhabitants or visitors to those caves based off of paintings. Should we base all our modern religions off of paintings alone?

[/quote by Clovis


So what should we base them on? Do we believe 12 men who never met each other? We touched on before on how Christians took Pagan holidays & how Christianty felt the need to wipe Paganism competly out.
Even to this day Christianty feels the need to make sure that everyone knows about them & how they should believe in thier God. I do agree that Wiccan is a new religion & like all religions there are flaws in it but it does not make that religions wrong just different.

It would seem that from the 4th century onward, pagan becomes a pejorative term to indicate one who is not Christian. The word mutated and adapted throughout Christian history to what now resides in the dictionaries. Quite often you will see heathen used as a synonym for pagan. Interestingly enough, the Gothic haiþnô from which we derive the word heathen is thought to have followed a similar path of semantic development as that of paganus. Heathen is another agrarian term whose meaning changed from "dweller on the heath" to a non-Christian.

Neopaganism was and still is a religious movement that counters many of the ideologies and beliefs within society's mainstream religions. As part of the larger sixties Hippie Counterculture, Neopaganism incorporates many of their anti-establishment and liberal attitudes. Perhaps, this is why the framework of their belief systems or traditions is so polymorphic; making it virtually impossible to find a single unified religious composite. For this reason, many do not consider Neopaganism a religion. Nevertheless, there are those who follow a broader interpretation of religion and who would define it as such.

Is this evidence of the continuity of paganism, if these chalk figures aren't maintained (cleaned out) they fill in and disappear under grass, many have been lost, the estimated age of the White Horse of Uffington is 3,000 years old, it was looked after for a 1000 years before the Romans came, but more remarkable it's survived 1500 years of Christianity.



One of the most famous prehistoric examples is the White Horse of Uffington, cut on the slopes of an 856 ft high White Horse Hill, a downland viewpoint in the Vale of the White Horse, Berkshire. This is probably the oldest example of this type of hill figure in Britain, but is only an approximate representation of an elongated running horse, 374 ft long, formed by chalk trenches 3 ft deep and 10 ft wide. Its entire shape can only be seen properly from the air. The Uffington Horse has survived from infilling through the centuries because of the periodic cleaning of it, known as 'scouring', held as a festive occasion by local villagers. Thomas Hughes, author of Tom Brown's Schooldays, refers to it in his Scouring of the White Horse, issued in 1859. It is now maintained by the ancient monuments section of the Department of the Environment, so its preservation for all time is assured.
http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/redir?src=e...tion=WebResults

Not only do I understand but I have made these same exact points on this very thread before anyone did. Now I will ask again, besides generally saying some have knowledge and traditions passed down from families, can you offer specific examples of this knowledge and tradition passed down? Specific ones that pertain to you perhaps? Some you know that pertain to others? Or are you one of the ones who just do not know?

Yep mate I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is definitely not wrong. I myself do not look on the older beliefs or Neopaganism as pejorative. Not only do I find these beliefs exhilarating and interesting I continuously want to learn more about them. I find them as valid forms of expression of faith and religion. I can definitely understand how it feels to be outside the mainstream since my very own beliefs, based solely on the Bible without the traditions of men, themselves are not mainstream as most Christians look down on us. Not only can I empathize with Pagans since we both were victims during the burning times but I grew up in a church that was very insular and viewed the world as being outside and not as being part of the world. Growing up in a household where you do not have Christmas trees, did not go trick or treating, did not do many of the holidays you view yourself as not mainstream lol

Scouring as part of local fairs is quite interesting. As far as the continuity do the villagers still identify with the older beliefs or just clean it out as something important to do to still maintain at least one link to the past? You do not know how much it pains me though that so much of the ancient cultures, their crafts, their monuments, have been destroyed. Maybe others cannot understand this type of pain I do not know? Just a few days ago part of a Catholic University in town, Our Lady of the Lake, burned down. It was built in 1905 and holds many records but the building itself is historical. Just pained me to see the continuous live coverage of the fire and parts of the building, a spire, just collapse. If it was arson I hope they find the culprit.

Either way I will attempt to look into the scouring of the Uffington White Horse and see if the villagers view of it is offered anywhere online. The culture of it all is fascinating.

There is alot of truth to that because it was against the law to be anything but a Christian for so long alot of people kept quiet about being a Pagan. Like Most Pagans paths back then they were passed down from one family member to another & mostly oral tradations, even before the rise of Christianty alot of familes did this.

Sadly no one has come forward to say what specifically was passed down. If someone knows anything I wish they would share. I have been asking this question and attempting to find out for several years any bit of knowledge I could. As I posted earlier there are many old ways passed down in my region even though people are mostly Catholic. The only thing I know that is passed down is rubbing an egg on a sick child then breaking it. If there is a blackness in it it is then said they had the evil eye casted on them and it is now removed. Santeria also has knowledge of the orishas, which are part of the Yoruban culture, preserved through association with various Catholic saints. I remember an episode of Cosmic Slop, an HBO show, where there was a santero who had to fight for his people to be able to visit the chapel and worship Mary, for them though the Virgin represents Yemaya and not the mother of Christ.

There is also Curanderismo which is not so popular as it was before. My parents have told me many stories of Curanderos and my mother has at time visited them. If anyone wants basic information here is a link but there is much more information on the net. I grew up with a strong belief in some of the beliefs passed down such as one having el mal ojo (the evil eye) or someone having susto (fright) which are conditions that can be cured using traditional methods.

My dad one time told me his grandmother got rid of his acne when he was a teen. All he head to do was follow her directions and have faith. He was to buy seven clean white handkerchiefs and place each one outside for the night. In the morning when it collected the morning dew all he had to do was wipe his face with it then throw it away or burn it, I forget which now, then after seven days it was done. He never had acne again. Most of the prescriptions though are one time use and only apply to the individual.

There is also the story of Don Pedrito, information about him is online, but as a child I learned from my parents. Not only was he a curandero, but like Edgar Cayce and Nostradamus who were both faith healers they also made predictions of the future. One story I learned as a child goes like this: People used to line up and come from afar everyday to visit Don Pedrito Jaramillo. His cures were known throughout all of South Texas and Northern Mexico. Back then the border was not as defined as it is now. The old saying that Mexicans do not cross borders but the borders cross us was more valid back then. Well one day a lady came who was very dark and wanted to be lighter. People would hassle her and such over it and she just wanted to be lighter. Don Pedrito told her to go to a certain river at night and get naked and bathe with the mud then coat herself with mud and leave it on overnight. The next morning she would be lighter.

Well she did but only did half her body to test it. The next morning she washed the mud off and sure enough she was lighter on that half. She was excited now and did the other half that night. When morning came nothing changed she was half and half still. She went back to Don Pedrito and told him. He simply said 'you should of had more faith'. End of story she lived like that for the rest of her days.

We also believe in lechuzas. Some think it is just myth but I grew up as well as many others in the region believing they are real. These are witches, male or female, who can turn into these big owl like birds. They usually fly over your house and sound like babies laughing or old women laughing. I will not get into all I know about them on this thread. My uncle though caught one and broke its leg before it got away. The witch must have cursed him for it cause a week later he was painting their house and fell down the ladder and broke his leg. Things like this give me a strong belief that the old ways, whether new or old, have validity. I am a believer though not a practitioner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curanderismo

I also found some information on the scourings of the the White Horse at Uffington. It would seem at least most of the villagers do not have a continuity with pagan beliefs to the past but view the scouring as a simple fair. I will keep looking in hopes someone in the village does maintain some of the old knowledge to this day.



http://www.berkshirehistory.com/archaeolog...ite_horse3.html

.............<<>> Now 'Norwood'. Why would you think that I want to attack you?..............Joey.

Some people think Christians are always wanting to attack them even when some of us are open and accepting of them without any reservations. Maybe it is paranoia maybe it is just being jaded. iono? I cannot say their hatred does not hurt because it does on some level but we cannot let it get us down and become bitter and want to attack back.

I think most Pagans view Christians as ill-tempered badgers waiting to pounce on us the moment we say "I don't believe in Christ...", even though that's not true. It's more stereotypes and paranoia, I think. I don't like to tell just anyone what I believe, because if you're different than other people, they tend to look at you in a different light, which isn't always a positive one. If people ask, then I'll tell them if I trust them, but if I don't, then I just say I don't feel comfortable telling them what religion I'm a part of. I don't ever tell people they're "wrong" in believing what they believe, though. Mostly it just gets you no where once you start that debate. I guess it's just the fundies telling people that we're evil devil-worshippers who deserve to die that makes us afraid and a little bid coarse when it comes to Christians. My entire family is Christian, though, and I love them no matter what they believe, and that will never change. It's just Pagans being over-defensive I think. And thank you Joey! I don't like ripping out people's throats because of religion. It's just silly, really. People will believe what they want to believe no matter what other people do.

Did I say you wanted too?

exactly , nor does it need to define God via a book . God is an inside job.

........... <<>> Here, let Me help them trace their peoples (Roots)- Noah had three sons: Ham, Sham and Japheth who were with him in the Ark. Ham had a son by the name of Cush. Cush helped to develop the "Great Conspiracy" (plans to rule the world). Cush pushed the building of a tower that would reach into heaven...It was easy. Everybody spoke one language (Genesis.11:1-6). But God confused their language. Suddenly they couldn't understand each other, and construction of the Tower of Babel came to a grinding halt (Genesis.11:7-9).

Cush had a son named Nimrod. Satan was delighted - this was his man ! Nimrod will be responsible for sending untold millions into hell (Genesis.10:8-9). This is the mighty hunter (of the souls of men). Nimrod built the great city of Babylon. He secretly worked up an evil system with his father and mother to control humanity by the occult, politics and a super counterfeit religions.

Nimrod plunged the people so deeply into sin that sacrificing babies became a common religious practice. Nimrod's great uncle, Shem, one of Noah's 3 sons, became so outraged that he killed Nimrod and cut him into pieces as an example to others. Nimrod's followers were shattered. They were afraid to sin in public for fear the same thing would happen to them.

But Nimrod's tricky little mama (Semiramis) had an ace up her sleeve. After all, she controlled this new satanic religion...so she announced that her dead husband/son...was now officially a god. So since Nimrod was a god she must be a goddess ! She called herself "The Queen of Heaven." She was so beautiful, that one time during a riot when she was spotted the riot stopped so everyone could look at her and admire her beauty.

Semiramis orders her priest of Satan into action... They master of lies, magic and illusion. Everywhere statues or idols appeared of Semiramis holding little Nimrod. She was soon accepted as the "Queen of Heaven" (Ashtarte). Her symbol became the moon. Nimrod, her husband and son, was now called Baal, the sun god. His symbol became the sun. Baal worship caught on fast.

Semiramis (Ashtarte) "The Queen of Heaven".
Nimrod (Husband/son) the sun god.
When Babylon fell, Satan's religion shifted into Egypt, then spread world wide. Guess who we run into in Egypt ? It's the ever popular "Isis."

In Egypt, Semiramis becomes known as Isis, "The Queen of Heaven."
In Egypt, Nimrod became known as Osiris, the husband/son... As the child he was most frequently called Horus (the sun god).

As time passed, stories spread wold-wide even into mythology about Semiramis and Nimrod. Below is a list of some of the names that can be traced back to them.

(Semiramis)
Cybele (goddess mother) in pagan Rome.
Irene (goddess of peace) Greece.
Shing Moo (holy mother of China).
Diana (Ephesian).
Rhea (mother of gods).
Isi (goddess mother) India.
Venus.

(Nimrod)
Deoius (Asia).
The boy Jupiter (pagan Roam).
Bacchus (god of partying of ancient Greece).
The Centaur (Greece).
Orion (constellation).
The boy Plutus (Greece).
The Winged One (Babylon).
Iswara (India

So as you can see Satan pulled it off, mankind no longer served the Lord. The whole human race was trapped in some from of Baal worship.
As you can see the pagan religion had to start some were and you can't get a straight from pagan believers. Through out the Bible and even through these days God is always dealing with the people who worship Baal and other so called gods for as you can see it is just Satan giving new names to old ways..........................Joey.

That is what I have learned too joey. You forgot the part where Semiramis married her own son and making him her husband.

If you have not read my fictional account of Semiramis at the Tower of Babel take a look man. It is just a short story and I really need more traffic on my artistic forays of short stories and poems that I post :/ A shameless plug I know haha.

Tower of Babel

Witchcraft too is very old some of the writings about Witches occur in western lieterature as early as eightth century B.C.E. I only say this because my wife is a witch not not Wiccan, there is a difference. There seem to be at least 3 Definitions of the word Witch.


Generic: It simply states: a witch is a person who practices sorcery. Sorcery can include a variety of aspects such as healing, divination, magic, alchemy, necromancy, spells, herbs, meditation, etc. These practices are often an avenue within an established spiritual structure. It is the Generic interpretation that is the common link among the cultures worldwide.



Christian: A witch is a person who practices the black arts and possesses supernatural powers due to a pact with the devil -also known as Satan. The origins of this definition came from the medieval period circa 1500 when it also included heretics, eccentrics, lepers, Jews and anyone else who didn't conform to the Christian Church. During this time 'witch' almost always referred to women and is evident with words like hag and crone. The reasoning behind this was that women were considered the weaker sex and thus were easily tempted by the devil. Even today, when we think of a witch we think in terms of female, although they can be male as well. Other monotheistic religions like Judaism and Islam also had similar viewpoints.



And finally the modern. A witch is a member of a particular spiritual construct often based on an amalgamation of different religious concepts and practices -and- who practices magic/sorcery within the scope of this faith. The Pagan community and other Earth based spiritualities make it clear that the practice of magic is the distinguishing factor for the description of witch. Basically it is a mutually exclusive relationship that states: not all Pagans are witches and not all witches are Pagans.

Oh it would seem some of our research is paralleled joey cause I have some of the same you do word per word. Here are my notes. Oh and a WARNING: Huge Text Block. Anyone not interested in my notes just skip past this post.

Noah>Ham>Cush>Nimrod

Nimrod marries his mom Semiramis
Nimrod's great uncle, Shem, kills Nimrod
after Nimrod dies Semiramis claims Nimrod is the sun god "Baal"
and herself "The Queen of Heaven"
Babylon fell and 1 world religion migrates to Egypt
Nimrod is known as Osirus, the Husband/Son...
as the child he was most frequently called Horus (The Sun God)
"The Eye Of Horus"="All Seeing Eye"
Semiramis becomes Isis

SEMIRAMIS
Cybele (Goddess Mother) in pagan Rome
Irene (Goddess Of Peace) Greece
Shing Moo (Holy Mother Of China)
Diana (Ephesian)
Rhea (Mother Of Gods)
Isis (Goddess Mother) India
Venus

NIMROD
Deoius (Asia)
The Boy Jupiter (Pagan Rome)
Bacchus (God Of Partying) of ancient Greece
The Centaur (Greece)
Orion (Constellation)
The Boy Plutus (Greece)
The Winged One (Babylon)
Iswara (India)


Nimrod=Baal=Tammuz=Osirus(Egypt)

Semiramis(Ashtarte)"The Queen Of Heaven"=Isis(Egypt)=Venus=Virgin Mary

Jupiter=St. Peter


New Webster Dictionary

SEMIRAMIS-legendary Assyrian queen, traditionally the founder of Babylon and Ninveh, worshipped
as a dove and later identified with Ishtar.

Ishtar-the Babylonian and Assyrian goddess of fertility and love, identified with Aprhodite,
Venus and Astarte.

Aphrodite-(Greek mythology) the goddess of love, fertility and beauty (correspondinng to the
Roman Venus) [Gk=foam-born. (She was said to have been born of the sea foam, and was
also goddess of seafarers)]

Venus-(Roman mythology) the goddess of beauty and love, identified with the Greek Aphrodite

Astarte-Phoenician goddess of love, identified with with the Greek Aphrodite

Isis-an Egyptian nature goddess, sister and wife of Osirus. her cult spread (3rd B.C.) to Greece
and Rome, and she became widely worshipped in the Greco-Roman world.

SEMIRAMIS+++
Cybele-Phrygian nature goddess whose cult passed to Greece (c. 430 B.C.) and to Rome
(c. 204 B.C.). The Greeks identified her with Rhea.

Rhea-(Greek mythology) one of the Titans, wife of Cronus, mother of Zeus, Poseidon etc. She was
identified with Cybele

Diana-(Roman mythology) the goddess of the hunt, of the moon, and of chastity, identified with
the Greek Artemis

Artemis-(Greek mythology) goddess of chastity and of hunting, daughter of Zeus and twin sister of
Apollo, helper of women in childbirth. She was later identified with the Roman Diana



NIMROD-the traditional founder of the Babylonian monarchy, and the archetype of a great hunter
(Genesis x,8-10)

Baal-a Phoenician god. The name was givenn by ancient Canaanitish peoples to local male deities
considered responsible for the fertility of land and flocks [Heb. ba'al, lord]

Osiris-the ancient Egyptian god of the underworld and judge of the dead, brother and husband of
Isis and father of Horus. He was often associated with fertility and its sources, the Nile
and the Sun: he was revived by Isis after being killed by his brother Seth, symbolizing
the yeraly renewal of the natural world.

Horus-(Egyptian mythology) the hawkheaded god of a

NIMROD+++
Jupiter-{as a baby}(Roman mythology) the god of the sky and and the king of the gods, identified
with the Greek Zeus

Bacchus-(Greek and Roman mythology) the son of Zeus and Semele, the god of wine and fertility,
known to the Greeks as Dionysus

centaur-(Greek mythology) a creature with the legs and body of a horse and the head, shoulders
and arms of a man

Orion- a constellation in the southern part of the zodiac, represented in charts as a hunter with
belt and sword [a giant hunter of Greek mythology]

Zeus-(Greek mythology) the supreme god, identified with Latin Jupiter. he was the son of Rhea
and of Cronos, whom he overthrew. he symbolised nature and the elements and was regarded
variously as the god of earth and giver of fertility, the dipenser of good and evil, the
giver of laws, the guardian of hearth, property and liberty. His symbols were the eagle, the
scepter and the thunderbolt, and his principal shrines were located in Athens and Olympia

Dionysus-(Greek mythology) god of the vine, identified with Bacchus and the Roman Liber

Liber-(Roman mythology) the god of creativeness, later identified with Dionysus and Bacchus


Nimrod-Semiramis (founders of Babylonia)
Baal-Astarte (Caananite)
Tammuz-Ishtar (Akkadian) (Babylonian-Assyrian)
Osirus-Isis (Egyptian)
Adonis-Aphrodite (Greek)
Mars-Venus (Roman)
Orion-Artemis(Greek)???
Dumuzi-Inanna (Sumerian)
before Islam
Allah=moon god of the Sabeans in Arabia he married the sun-goddess
"Daughters of Allah"=Al-lat, Al-uzza and Manat

Nimrod=Marduk,moloch
Marduk and Semiramis
venus and adonis=greek
ushas and vishnu=hindu

Semiramis became a goddess with many
names such as Baalti, (The Madonna), the Great Goddess Mother,
Queen of Heaven, The Mediatrix, The Mother of Mankind, Astarte,
Mother Earth, the whore of Babylon.

China- Shing Moo (Holy Mother)
India- Devaki (goddess), Crishna (child)
Ephesus- Diana (mother of gods identified with Semiramis)
Egypt- Isis (goddess mother), Horus (child)
Greece- Aphrodite (goddess), "The Mediatrix"
Rome- Venus (goddess), Jupiter (child)
Israel- Ashtaroth (goddess), Baal (child) JUDGES 2:1candinavia- Disa (pictured with child)

Encarta
Bacchus=Dionysus
Isis=Demeter
Amon+Ra=Amon-Ra=Zeus=Jupiter
Amon, his wife, Mut (Egyptian, "the mother"), and his son, the moon god Khon (Egyptian,
"to traverse the sky"), formed the divine triad of Thebes.
With the goddesses Juno and Minerva, Jupiter formed the triad whose worship was the central cult
of the Roman state.
Bel, supreme god of the Babylonians (see Isaiah 46). Bel is the Chaldaic form of Baal and is
believed by some to be identical with that god. Like the equivalent Hebrew Baal, the name Bel
was used also in the sense of "lord" or "owner." Bel presided over the air. His consort was Belit.
Bel was identified with the Greek god Zeus by the Greek historian Herodotus and was believed by
the British Orientalist George Rawlinson to have been different from the Syrian Baal. As
Bel-Merodach the god was connected with the planet Jupiter, associated in astral mythology with
the productive power of nature.

Ishtar-Babylonian
Inanna-Sumerian
Isis-Egyptian
Aphrodite-Greek
Venus-Roman
Yemayah-(Yoruba) mother of Shango

Minotaur (the Bull God) late Neolithic is the most ancient and
widespread masculine image of God.

Yemayah The Orisa of the Ocean and Motherhood.


Shango ( The Orisa of Courage, Intelligence and Truth. Son of
Yemayah, he is the Lord of lightening, thunder, rain and testicular fertility.

Serpent Goddess Of Crete worshipped in Crete as early as 6000 BCE.

Pan - Ancient God of Sacrificial Fertility

Ishtar:
Goddess of love and war, patron of Uruk, Nineveh, and Erbil. In Uruk tradition: father is
Anu. In others: Sin the moon-god. Sister of Ereshkigal. Her name is also used as a generic
term for "goddess" and can have a plural form. Symbols: Morning and evening star; Rosette.
The Babylonian goddess of love and fertility who seduced men to serve her. Identified with
the Greek Aphrodite, the Sumerian Inanna, the Phoenician Astarte, and the Canaanite
Athirat. She was the most worshipped goddess in Babylonia. The lion, the Bull, and the
dragon were her emblems, the beings dedicated to her. See Inanna.
Inanna:
1. Sumerian earth-goddess, sister of Ereshkigal. She loved Dumuzi.
2. Babylonian mother-goddess, "mistress of heaven.
Dumuzi:
"Faithful son" Sumerian god, lover of Ishtar, brother of Geshtin-anna, shepherd of Uruk,
doorkeeper of Anu, paired with Gishzida, fisherman of Ku'ara. Spent half the year in the
Underworld and so was the subject of the annual taklimtu-ritual of lying-in-state. Name
pronounced Du'uzi in Assyria. A Sumerian god, called Tammuz in Babylonian, and Adonis
in Greek. The goddess of love and fertility, Inanna in Sumerian, Ishtar in Babylonian, Venus
in Latin, fell in love with him, but he was abducted by the demons of the underworld to the
land of death. Inanna decided to go in search of him, so she had to descend to the land of
death, which has seven gates. At each of the gates, she had to pay for her passage with a piece
of garment because we all go into the land of death naked. Every year the goddess had to
retrieve her husband from the clutches of death. In some versions of the myth she could only
take her lover out of Hades by sacrificing her husband. This is the image of the earth
shedding the leaves and flowers of the old season and decorating itself with fresh vegetation at
each new spring.
Marduk (Assyrian: Assur; Sumerian: Enlil; Greek: Zeus):
Patron god of Babylon, consort of Zarpanitum. Temple Esagila, ziggurrat E-temen-anki.
Epithet: "Bel" Lord. Agricultural god. Symbols: a spade, a mushussu-dragon. Name may
mean "bull-calf of the sun" and/or "son of Duku" For assimilation with other gods, see seven
names and epithets in Epic of Creation 6 and fifty in 7. Babylonian sky-god and king of the
gods, god of storm and lightning. Son of Ea, father of Nabu, founded Babylon, his cult
center; created winds and storms like Zeus. Also fought Tiamat and her monstrous offspring,
divided her body into heaven and earth, with Ea created people from the blood of Qingu, etc.
etc.





http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/, http://www.eliki.com/realms/kat/goddess.html, http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/gallery/, http://www.clubi.ie/lestat/godsmen.html, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/, http://www.parabola.org/

Thats your version & how typical of you to post something like this. I knew you were waiting for the right moment to spring something.

Those are your roots not ours I find it sad that you can't get your head our of the sand. Thats ok your proved my point on why some Christians are still blinded.

Thank you!

I should also add that I truly believe that all these goddesses and gods that are represented in various cultures by different names actually at one time walked the Earth. They were living beings who possessed more power than others due to their heritage of being descended from the Annunaki. The half human half demon children are called Nephilim.

Basic infor on the Nephilim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

A post I made earlier regarding all this: link

His view should not be dismissed since many Christians who have studied come to the same conclusions. No one has to agree with the view but it is there and this is a place to share them. It is not an attack, or springing something, it certainly does not warrant telling someone to get their head out of the sand, nor does it mean Christians are blinded.

Sorry Clovis I highly respect you but that was his whole reason for posting this thread & I didn't say all christians I said some He's trying to tell us where our roots come from based on what his religions says. Just because HE believes it does not make it true & thats what bugs me he's why people dislike stereotypes.



The below statements prove he trying to say he know our belifes better then we do.


Here, let Me help them trace their peoples (Roots



As you can see the pagan religion had to start some were and you can't get a straight from pagan believers. Through out the Bible and even through these days God is always dealing with the people who worship Baal and other so called gods for as you can see it is just Satan giving new names to old ways.


This was his ONLY reason for posting this entire thread.

Sorry Clovis while I agree he was the right to believe as he see fits I remember some of his other post where hes done this same type of thing. This was a peaceful thread everyone learning something new untill he had to go & say something like I knew he would.

Perhaps you are right norwood but only joey can say if that is the reason. Either way I am thankful he made the post and I hope it does not die. More Pagans need to share their views of how they practice their beliefs and add in any other thoughts they have. It is all quite interesting and I have been waiting and waiting for this chance to come along since mythology, the goddess, and Paganism are some of the subjects I love to study. I too believe that is where the roots of Paganism are too but I would not attempt to force anyone to believe it or for a second think even if true it invalidates Paganism. As I stated above I truly believe that the gods and goddesses walked the Earth before and are now known by different names to different cultures. I knew this even during the time I myself became somewhat of a goddess worshiper. I just like to know the truth in all things. To be honest this view was first introduced by Hislop and there is no proof it is true as far as the records tell us. There was most likely a Semiramis and if you anyone is interested read the wiki lol it also mentions the Hislop view:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiramis

If anyone loves Joseph Campbell who does excellent work in mythology here is a link that attempts to use some of his ideas regarding Semiramis and such. No it is not a Joseph Campbell worked but inspired by him.

http://groups.msn.com/seadogsanddarlings/yourwebpage2.msnw

Still he could of said what he believe without it sounding like what he believes is true & thats that. Even Omnaka in post # 44 he even asked Joey if he was trying to convert others or just wanted to know. Thats pretty bad when a loving soul like Omnaka asks you a question like that. He know like everyon else here that the Roman Church tried to stamp out all records of Pagansim & those who call themselves Pagans. You believe as he does Clovis & thats fine but at you see fit to let other believe as they want to without playing games.

Joe. For the purpose of this response, I am going to attempt (it will be difficult, considering how it enrages me) to completely ignore the fact that your entire purpose for this thread was to try to convince people that pagans worship the Christian Devil, regardless of what anyone else says. Let's break this down.



Alright. So. As I said, I'm going to ignore things that address your real purpose for this thread. So consider the first sentence ignored.
Your theory requires the reader to believe entirely in the literal version of Genesis. I don't know if you noticed, but not a lot of people do that. Aside from the fact that there is no scientific evidence of just about anything in Genesis being remotely true, there are thousands of other creation stories that have at least as much proof as Genesis. So if the reader states: "I am not a Young Earth Creationist," your/Alexander Hislop's theory is rendered null and void.
Even Semiramis is quite universally acknowledged (except by people like Hislop) to not have been a real historical figure. Hislop believed there was a connection between her and the Assyrian queen Shammuramat, but there is no evidence of that other than a barely-there name resemblance.
Now that we've gotten just about ALL of Hislop's theory out of the way, let's continue.



Ok. As before, I will disregard your declaration that all of polytheism is "Satan's religion."
I agree, there are some similarities to be found in some of the listed deities. But you've got to look at the actual roles of these figures instead of just mindlessly listing names.
As we all know, Venus/Aphrodite is a goddess of love and beauty, and to a degree, fertility. The Assyrian equivalent was Ishtar, and the three have of course been compared. Technically it is two, because Venus, like many gods and goddesses in the Roman pantheon, were exact copies of their Greek counterparts. But we can ignore that. Think about the concepts associated with these three goddesses. All three are associated with love, fertility and beauty. Is there not a direct relationship between these concepts in ALL human cultures? The fact is that these three goddesses are archetypal figures. They have similar traits because their civilizations were not trapped inside giant cardboard boxes for their entire existences. Cultures influence each other; it is utterly ridiculous to claim they do not. If the people of one civilization encounter people of another civilization for longer than three minutes, there is influence. So now imagine if these civilizations traded. There would be plenty of sharing of ideas. Pagans are not nearly so one-sided about their beliefs as monotheists often are, so the concept of a new goddess or a new myth for an old goddess would not be shunned.
So, alright, you have pointed out three goddesses that are all very similar and all archetypes of the same concepts. Congratulations. Now let's look at a few of the others.
You also equate the aforementioned three goddesses with Isis and Cybele. Isis is indeed referred to as the "Queen Of Heaven" and other similar names. This is mostly because of her place of reverence in the Egyptian pantheon, so it makes perfect sense. There is very little similarity if any between Isis and Aphrodite/Venus/Ishtar. Isis did not represent any of those archetypes. She was in fact a goddess primarily associated with magick.
A comparison with Cybele is even more absurd. Cybele was not so much the "goddess mother" as the "earth mother." She is therefore equatable not with Venus at all. If any proof be needed as to their lack of similarity, consider the fact that priests of Cybele castrated themselves in service to this goddess. How do you think that would go over in the worship of a goddess of fertility and love?



Again you state your belief that all paganism is simply the worship of Satan, and that you view all pagans as "trapped."
I'd love for you to explain in depth these two statements: "You can't get a straight from pagan believers" and especially "...God is always dealing with the people who worship Baal and other so called gods for as you can see it is just Satan..."

Again you state your belief that all paganism is simply the worship of Satan, and that you view all pagans as "trapped."
I'd love for you to explain in depth these two statements: "You can't get a straight from pagan believers" and especially "...God is always dealing with the people who worship Baal and other so called gods for as you can see it is just Satan..."
[/quote]


First of all thank you his post really made because I saw it coming but took the (however slim) chance thea the really wanted to know. I think in the end he didn't get the anwser he wanted to he winged it on his own. I have no problem with his belifes but I've always disliked those who like to tell us Pagans what who we are worshipping.

I think its funny sometimes. You can't explain some things to some people so there's really no reason to try. Might as well just have a good giggle over it and not worry about it.

Well I might not be a practicing Pagan but I love to study the goddess in all her forms. I will not say I know more about her than most Pagans but I am confident I know more about her than quite a few only because I have spent a better part of 15 years studying her.



The theory proposed by Hislop does not require a belief in Young Earth Creationism. This is an argument of fallacy that claims since one is wrong then the other clearly must be. There is no direct correlation between the two though. Let us disregard the whole of the Bible as well as the assertion that all the gods and goddesses are just demons and instead let us focus just on a few of the following quotes.

Now Hislop's conclusions regarding Semiramis' as the archtype goddess theory has no records to substantiate it. It cannot be proven true. But his approach of syncretism and correlating one goddess to another is accepted. Jung introduced the ideas of archetypes. Campbell continued this in his work within comparative mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology

Here is an example of Greek syncretism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism#Religious_syncretism

Below is an excerpt from the Metamorphoses of Lucius Apuleius. This work has also been called the Golden Ass and was written in the 100s. This also offers insight into how the near ancients thought about and considered the goddess.



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/lucius-assa.html

Apuleius also had further insight in these matters for he was no Christian or follower of a monotheistic god.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuleius



This was not purely Hislop's view that Semiramis was an actual figure but also others since, "The legends derived by Diodorus Siculus, Justin and others from Ctesias of Cnidus were completely disproved, and Semiramis had come to be treated as a purely legendary figure." There has been others to offer more credelous views put together from the archaeological record that Semiramis did indeed exist.




http://neohumanism.org/s/se/semiramis_of_babylon.html



Of course each of these goddesses have their own unique features but that does not instantly mean they are not connected. While the popular view that the Roman pantheon is a complete rip of the Greek pantheon this is true but also over generalization. The process of syncretism was through assimilation and was a long and complicated process.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_pantheon



This is all true and not sure if all the other quotes provided are just generalizing but many of them missed their mark..



This is wholly not true and Isis has been compared to Aphrodite/Venus/Ishtar mainly through Astarte.



Regarding Isis:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

Most likely Isis was compared to these other goddesses during the Ptolemies reign in Egypt and I have a book within my collection that states exactly this. If wanting the source and excerpt just ask.

And regarding Astarte, already compared to Isis, we can see that Astarte is the goddess of love and fertility among other concepts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte

Campell also makes the comparison between Ishtar, Aphrodite, Isis among others.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#Compar...h_other_deities

This is a valid point but Cybele can be called the mother goddess, not just as the earth mother which of course she is, but 'the' mother of all gods. This is attested to her title in her title of Magna Mater which means Great Mother.







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele

Cybele is also a fertility goddess and the Galli, the circumcised priests you referred to, were participating in fertility rites. The connections to Venus is there though not a direct correlation for they are not as closely syncretized as say Venus and Ishtar. Also as far as I know there are know statues of mother and child of Cybele which would directly correlate her to Venus. We have to keep in mind that Cybele though is a primordial goddess and one that predated many others which might account as the reason she does not represent Venus but that Venus as a god