From the BBC:

The Archbishop of Westminster has urged Christians to treat atheists and agnostics with "deep esteem".

Believers may be partly responsible for the decline in faith by losing sense of the mystery and treating God as a "fact in the world", he said in a lecture.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor called for more understanding and appreciation between believers and non-believers.

The leader of Roman Catholics in England and Wales said that a "hidden God" was active in everyone's life.

The Cardinal's lecture at Westminster Cathedral comes after a spate of public clashes over issues such as stem-cell research, gay adoption and faith schools.

He expressed concern about the increasing unpopularity of the Christian voice in public life, saying: "Our life together in Britain cannot be a God-free zone and we must not allow Britain to become a world devoid of religious faith and its powerful contribution to the common good."

Last year, he complained of a "new secularist intolerance of religion" and the state's "increasing acceptance" of anti-religious views. To stem this tide, he said Christians must understand they have something in common with those who do not believe.

God is not a "fact in the world" as though God could be treated as "one thing among other things to be empirically investigated" and affirmed or denied on the "basis of observation", said Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor.

"If Christians really believed in the mystery of God, we would realise that proper talk about God is always difficult, always tentative.

"I want to encourage people of faith to regard those without faith with deep esteem because the hidden God is active in their lives as well as in the lives of those who believe."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7390941.stm

I kind of get from this that he thinks even if you're an Athiest, the hidden God is there in you, you just don't know it.

lol I am sure atheist would disagree that God is active in their life. Of course us Christians would not. But this is a sly way to also ask atheist to respect us and bravo to the ones who do! I agree us Christians have been beaten down too long as of late. I am even ashamed of wearing a simple silver necklace with a cross charm in fear that the non-believing world might treat me differently for it.

Thanks good archbishop, however, I will choose, as I always have done, to respect people as individuals, not for their beliefs or lack thereof.

To someone as sophisticated as you though MMW that works. To someone less sophisticated simply saying respect individuals does not sink in. They will still base prejudices and act on them through discrimination based on religion, ethnicity, and a whole host of other things that make us different. To combat that campaigns specifically saying be nice to other religions, be nice to other groups etc, seems to be the best course of action. The masses of the world are not bright sad to say ~_~

That is saddly true, we see them here on UM every single day. Someday, hopefully that will change, all we can do is try to set a good example.

Tut tut all you believers!

Damned if you do damned if you don't

Atheists are the most distrusted minority in America, more so than the usual suspects including the Muslims. America seems to collectively dislike Islam because of 9/11, but somehow atheists are still lower in the chain! Even lower than homosexual persons, which we all know how Christianity loves to rag on.

To say you, the majority is being persecuted is laughable at best. What about the Muslims who are stereotyped as full of hatred, bigotry, and sexism? What about the evil atheists who can't possibly be moral? What about the homosexual people who can't join hands in marriage because their love is equated with that of humans loving animals?

You, as a Christian, have the least right to speak of persecution, regardless of where you live if in Western society. Sure, there is a group of us trying to keep the western world secular to avoid going back to the dark ages or becoming like the middle east under sharia law, but we're not saying you can't be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. We're saying you've no right to force that into public schools or down everyone else's throats.

I'm all for personal freedom -- freedom of religion is essential to truly be free -- but not when it infringes on my rights and the rights of others.

I find more respect for the Catholic religion as a whole than any other religion because (unlike their former incarnations), they're very rational, very reasonable, which most religions aren't. There will always be religious people from any circles who are respectable, because we're all people with opinions, but if you want anything less than secularism in a country, you're not one of those people.

Thanks.

Edit: directed at Clovis' first post.

This is also why every company has sexual harassment courses as part of orientation because simply saying respect individuals falls on deaf ears. They need to be walked by the hand and told eyes off, hands off, comments off lolz

They would think that everyone already knows this but to avoid lawsuits of any kind and to simply be able to have zero tolerance on the issue it is necessary unfortunately.

The majority of Christians only pay lip service to the Bible and only have religion on Sundays. I hardly feel like a majority and was brought up to see us as different than the rest of the world, and the world as being outside, and not being a part of it. I feel like part of the world now but that feeling of being different still remains. It is not laughable because it is now wrong to attack any group, even against the law, but it is still OK to make fun of two groups in the US: Christians and white southerners. If you are a Christian and a white southerner woe be to you lol

Ah, but in England, where this Bishop is from - the reverse is true.

There are few practising Christians in England - 1.63 million in a population of 60 million+.

Jolly ole England mate. No tea and crumpets for the Christians lol

Even so, religious people as a whole are seemingly working together to make a society based on religious ideology. Muslims are gaining ground in the UK (though I'm not sure of the full spectrum of demographics in the UK, I'm sure there are a lot of Muslims) and I would assume Christians are trying hard to do the same, even with the relatively small population of them.

That is hardly surprising ,due to the strange beliefs you hold


fullywired

Elaborate please because I do not understand? I have heard from others two variations on the same theme that the only groups that people are allowed to make fun of are white Christian southerners or WASPs. Do not think this view is unique to me if that is what you meant.

The difference between England and America in terms of Religion?

On the American $10 bill, there's the phrase "In God we trust". On the English £10 note, there's a picture of Darwin.

I did not know that. If that's really true and not fake, that's coolio. ^.^

Mhmm the difference was clear from your first post but is even more clear when comparing the dollar bill and pound note. Quite interesting and does expand my view of the England in just a small way. I guess this view has not caught on in another part of the UK, Northern Ireland, the Catholics and Protestants are still going at it especially during those parades and when they block children from going to school.



Tis true just google '£10 note' to see.

Definitely is true - I have some on me. Plus a pic, just to prove it:

That. is. AWESOME!

Dude, so true. The truth is that more Christians have been martyred in the last 100 years than in the whole of history before. As for sources, please check out The Voice Of The Martyrs website. You may well be shocked.
GIN

im a athiest,but was raised in a strong catholic family,it was a personal choice for me when i started questioning what i was tought..now as a athiest i dont expect to meet other athiest everyday as we are not the norm in society,,,so seeing someone with a cross or some other symbol of their faith is just a everyday thing,,and i never felt the need to tell them they were wrong or to give them a hard time because they believe in god.....i never thought about being offended by christians, because i know im mostly the exception to the rule,,i choose to not be apart of that, to me it was the right choice...i even go to churh on christmas out of respect for my mom and tradition from growing up,i dont take the communion but i am respectful of the ceramony and the people around me.also i dont mind god in our schools just as long as its not a forced prayer,,give a moment of silence for the class reflection at the begenning of the day, its up to the person what they do with it.even when i played football and their was a team prayer before and after the game i would bow my head out of respect and even close my eyes,i wasnt praying to god but i understood the symbolism of the act and to make a scene about being part of a team and not wanting to pray didnt make sence to me,,,and it didnt offend me,i still cant understand athiest being offended and not simple going with the flow and keeping a personal choice private and personal..

im never offended if god is part of something,a prayer before a sporting event to keep the players safe,or before a imprtant decesion or life event like a marriage or birth,those things are understandable,as a athiest i am respectful for what they feel is super important to them and their life choice to follow what they think was right.

now the only time i ever have attacked christians is when they attack me first,trying to convert me or save me and are real militant about it,,then i explode with such sacralige and anger filled berage of filth just because they made me mad not because they believe in god but because they are a******s...

I am an Atheist, and many Christians have attempted to attack my beliefs, and ended up losing. I personally do not like religion as the negatives out weigh the positives, and I have a extremely logical mindset, and it just does not click with me. But people , as people, can believe in what they want. If you believe in God, alright, if you worship Allah, cool, if you sacrifice goats to the god of Boat rides and melted ice cream...check a doctor on the goat part, but still - I really don't mind.

acs.rudeboy....

Great post. You're the kind of atheist that has my complete respect. It was the kind of atheist I was prior to finding something that worked better for me.

You seem to understand that respect, tolerance, and choice, are not necessarily the same as being an apologist. Very nice. I like it.

Mhmm asc.rudeboy definitely deserves respect and if only everyone was like him, both atheist, Christians, and any other label we can think of, this world would be a better place.

100% agreed.

MissMells,clovis thanks for the words.

i just think somethings should be private,im not ashamed how i feel and who i am but i dont feel the need to have "that talk" with everyone i meet.because most everybody belives in god and when they find out that you dont the first thing they do is act shocked and feel sorry for you then the questions start and your answers no mater how thought out or p.c. you try to be still attack their way of life and their beliefe system so even tho they asked they, then feel the need to defend themselves and the only way to do that is to make you see the error of your evil ways.thats when i get angry not because they believe and i dont and not because they are defending their beliefe system but because they automaticaly look at you like your a deffrent person,,,im the same guy you were just inviting to dinner at your house,or your kids played with mine,,i dont instantly turn into a evil doer or you didnt discover my plans to destroy the world,,but thats how alot of people react to the earth shattering news of being a athiest..so i just skip it and live like ive been living anyway.

to be honest i never disscused this subject at this length before i came to UM,and even tho i dont agree with alto of things said on both sides,i think it has helped me find a better understanding or atleast more atease with my choice...sometimes i wish i could believe in god.i dont have that security banket that others have. when i have a problem that i feel is overwhelming i dont have a higher power to turn to and leave it in his hands,,,i cant pass on my worries ,,,when i go to bed i have those problems and when i wake up i still have them with no sence of peace that its gods will or he will help me make it threw.i have to just fight threw it and find away on my own and thats life ya know.

i was told a long time ago by my grandpa if you want to keep a friend,never discuss politics,relegion ,or let them borrow money and ya know that was one of the best pieces of advice anyone has ever given me...ill defend myself when i need to but i dont feel the need to change the world to suit my beliefs,, they are mine and its the path i chose ,,,,hahah ive never felt bad about having a pocket full of money just because it says IN GOD WE TRUST,,and when i say the pledge of alegience i say ONE NATION UNDER GOD,because thats the words of the pledge..and i never once knew i should be offended about it those words hold diffrent meaning for everyone that says them.

I think that's a super healthy attitude Acs.rudeboy. Very healthy.

This part kind of in a way made me chuckle:



In a way, as a "christian" myself, I'm probably more irritated (not offended or insulted) with those things than you are, but probably not for the reasons most people would think...

One has nothing to do with God, the other has everything to do with God.

But, it hardly anything that would make me go on a tirade or even think about unless someone posted it as a topic in this forum. LOL.

Respect is earned.

Isn't it so ironic that the US has it's supposed secular nature written into it's constitution yet they have "In God We Trust" on their currency, something everybody needs to carry around on their person so much of the time. Yet in England, a non-secular State with an official State religion, they have Darwin on the tenner.

Irony at it's best is that...

I know why they put In God We Trust on US currency, and it made a kind of sense at the time it was done... but, it's served it's purpose and it's time to have it come off our currency. I really believe that.

I'm with asc.rudeboy. I would have to describe myself as a Athiest. However, if I'm in someone's home and they say grace before a meal, I'm going to bow my head. Or at church for a wedding etc, etc. It may not be my belief but I can respect theirs but please don't tell me my way of living my life is wrong.