There are many mysteries in every religion-- things that cannot be readily explained or understood, even by those who mark their lives in study of them. These 'mysteries' are accepted by the religious everywhere on account of an interesting body of 'evidence' known as 'faith'.
What is 'faith', exactly?
How reliable is this 'faith'. Lets be honest none of us have proof that our Gods excist expect for our faith.
Are you truly comfortable with basing your entire beliefs and therefore sometimes life on something which by definition is categorized as not more than a hunch?


For those of you who believe in hell no matter if it's the burning kind or sepration from God your betting alot on your faith. For those of us who do not believe in the Judeo-Christian God so are we.

I'm quite comfortable with faith for the foundation of my beliefs. The reliability of faith is not exact enough for anybody. What I find faith in, you may find it wasted and vice versa.

Being that I am a Christian, I tend to look at Faith in the biblical sense, not in the modern sense. In the Bible, Faith IS NOT the same as "belief". Faith is closer to our concept of "Trust". Not a single time in the entire Bible is it recorded that someone has Faith in God's existence. God's existence is accepted as fact (naturally, considering the source, lol). Faith, as spoken of in the Bible, refers to Trusting in God and the promises of God. Someone posted recently that Hebrews 11:1 speaks of Faith as "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" and on the surface seems to say "We can't see God, so we take it on Faith that he exists". But the very next verse of Hebrews cite dozens of examples of Old Testament characters having "Faith", and many of these spoke with God. As far as I can see, it makes no sense that people are said to have great "Faith" in God, yet at the same time they have bee said to have literally spoken to God, and been giving the power to do miracles in God's name. For them, their belief in God has moved to Fact, because they experienced it. Yet they are commended for their Faith.

Like I said, no section in the entire Bible ever commends someone for simply having Faith in God's existence. That is not biblical Faith. On a personal note, my Faith Trust is in the promises that God made in the Bible. It is true that I cannot prove God exists. But it is also true that I dont' just "believe" God exists. I KNOW God exists. Of course, I could be wrong. But then, when I do a maths problem, I could arrive at the wrong answer but that does not mean that the answer I gave was given on "Faith", it just means I was wrong in my calculation.

I don't see this as a "hunch". To me, God's existence is as real as my family's existence. My Trust is therefore not in whether God exists, but in the promises God has made. And these promises are not taken on the view that they "might" be correct. After reading the Bible (many times), it has become clear to me that they are telling the truth, and this becomes clearer every time I read the Bible.

As for your comment on Hell, you gave two options for believers to take - either burning for eternity, or separation from God. My view is neither of these, so where does that leave us????

Just a thought.

BTW, what are your thoughts on your belief in pagan gods as being a mere hunch? All the best,

Nicely put

I'm comfortable in my faith and belief system, but I also know the difference between what is real and what not. And having something to believe in or have faith in, gives us comfort, piece of mind. I don't believe in the concept of hell.

When we look at Faith more as trust and actually put that trust to the test, than we have experiences that support or do not support the faith/trust we had as a concept.

This I suspect is the way that beliefs evolve. I would say that at least some beliefs are a result of a person's experiences with their faith/trust concepts.

John

Throughout the different dispensation periods God makes covenants with people. For the last 2000 years the covenant He has made is for all people just not the Jews as they were before, and before that with the patriarchs, and so forth. A covenant is a promise and there are many parts to the promise or the current covenant we have with God now. One part is Acts 2:38. There are certain things we have to do on our end within the covenant and then He will fulfill his end. They are not hard things since initially all we have to do is believe and as Acts 2:38 says repent and be baptized and we shall, it does not say we might, it says we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit is real and does not exists by faith but I am sure many just go to church and never even know about it but that does not define my experience. There is such a thing as dead faith and there is also living faith. If I did not have proof of the Spirit I would not be a believer and do not blame anyone who leaves the church for they never had proof either. It only makes sense.



I identify with the Israelites and also the first Christians for even though we live in disbelieving worlds, surrounded by those who would cast us down, and it is not cool to believe in the God of the Israelites, I know He is there. I kneel at times and humble myself before God as they did but at other times, no less humble but with so much joy, I can pray with outstretched hands as they did. This is called Orans.



I also believe in the story of Shadrach, Mishael, and Abednego. How one day they stood in the fiery furnace and God is able to send help even if it means changing the very molecules that some might consider unchangeable.





This is what works for me and I do not expect others to believe the same way as I do.

I do not see what I believe as a hunch to be they are just as real as your God is to you no more or no less. I would to know what you see happening to those who do not worship your God. As an Ex-Christian for us it was heaven or hell there was no middle ground.

I know you were asking PA this, and his answer is probably different from mine.

But I'm wondering why it matters what someone else thinks happens to you when you die...

I mean, lets face it there are a lot of Christians that think I've bought a one-way ticket to hell, my mother thinks I'm destined to be reincarnated, one of my atheist friends thinks I'm destinted to nothingness, dead is dead. NONE of it bothers me. I figure it'll be a great big surprise, and if there's nothing, well, I guess it won't matter.

Do you think it's insulting when someone tells you your hell bound? I don't. *shrug*

I'm just curious because thats the only two things I've heard from Christians is that you got to hell or a sepreation from God. I am not insulted when someone tells me that I am going to hell. I think its sad that do believe in such a place & that they try to use fear to get me to convert, because really thats all it is is fear. Which they are betting on that I'll be afraid enough to leave my belifes behind.

Well, let me be the first Christian to tell you... I don't know what happens when we die. I'm not sure it matters. In my opinion, faith is for the living, not the dead. But, I will assume that this is not something people hear from a Christian very often.

It does happen again remember where I live! lol But your right it doesn't happen all the time but it's more often then not around here.

I know, you keep saying that. But that's not what I was talking about.

I know (as I mentioned in another thread here) that when I attend Mennonite services which I enjoy, I get some concerned Meno's who are afraid for my soul. They want to baptise me; twice if possible (I'm being a little flippant here). They don't tell me I'm gonna burn in a firey hell, but they're thinking it. I usually just thank them for their concern, and that I will take it under advisement. They're pretty receptive to that. The ARE concerned, I can't change that. So I might as well work with it in the kindest most gentle way, right?

Our lives are like crops. We sow what we reap. There are many harvests. Some good, some not so good, but it is about how we tend to our lives. Freewill is a given for most of us, those who believe in 'hard determinism' do not believe in free will, but for those who do and understand it know we also have consequences, some good, some bad, depending on our choices.

This has nothing to do with God or the Bible. It applies to everyone. Maybe we make our own paradise or hell as some believe? Either way we can choose to be good or not the choice is ours and it does not have to be how others say it is.

For those who believe this shell of a body is just temporary believe there does come something after. We might not know exactly what but why should it be any different than what we have sowed? This also applies to those who not only use fear to scare others but who use fear to scare themselves. It will not work.

Remember the story of the man who had a bed for his guests. And when they came if their legs were too long he would chop part of their legs off so they can fit into it. He was not going to accommodate them. This is the way some people view religion. They expect everyone to follow it exactly as they do. In the end though he made his bed and had to lie in it himself.

For those who follow the Spirit some of us know that the Spirit gives as it wills. We do not choose. We can only be open for it to choose to work through us, change us, and also prepare us for the crops and the harvest. Not just in the afterlife but in the here and now.

Besides all that MMW is right. Faith is for the living.

I know I keep saying that & I'm sorry but living where I do it's just a fact of life, after a while it does work on ones last nerve to keep hearing it. I understand what your saying & even being nice doesn not always work at some point I am better off just to turn around & walk away, which is what I do most of the time.

I also feel it is a "trust" thing...

Like having faith or trust in your partner for fidelity... Of believing your spouse or something is true...

So i suppose trust---truth = faith

I have a feeling . I put my faith in it. It is not proof nor could it be. But in all honesty it's a chance I have to take. A pull that I can't avoid. no logic. If I follow it and it leads somewhere so be it. If it doesn't I have lost anthing.

from MW -



I do. I think it's because , to me it feels , like just more people telling you your less than . not worthy of . This could be from being lesbian and hearing that alot along with being treated literally less than or second class.

I don't believe in hell actually . I believe that's a man made idea . But I do think man uses it to verbally in a way of a sort of segregation that smacks of elitism ( again the 'I'm better than you' thinking. which is how alot of christians use it. if your not a follower of Jesus your going to hell. the bible says so , were better than you , God loves us not you ect ............... all a big pile of manure.)

I realise you don't think your gods are just a "hunch". I was referring to the comment you made in your opening post - Are you truly comfortable with basing your entire beliefs and therefore sometimes life on something which by definition is categorized as not more than a hunch? I was just asking if you were truly comfortable with basing your entire beliefs and therefore sometimes life on something which by definition is categorized as not more than a hunch.

As I did not believe it was just a "hunch", I wanted to know your opinion, since you brought it up. And since you don't think your beliefs are just a hunch either, it's just a little confusing why you would bring it up in the first place. Know what I mean

I think "hell" is a big misconception. I believe the soul is not inherently immortal, and that the "gift of eternal life" described of in the Bible is exactly that - a gift. We as humans do not inherently have an eternal soul. Thus, if a person dies without receiving that gift, they simply die and become no more. Total Nothingness, no consciousness, no existence of any kind. Much like an atheist believes that when they die they will cease to exist and become worm food (and I might add, many atheists derive great comfort from believing/knowing there is nothing after this life), so too is the fate awaiting those who have not been granted eternity (the "second death" as Revelation puts it - ever wondered why the term "second death" was used - especially if Death was not the fate?)

I don't think there is such a place as "hell", and I think to refer to the place where people who have not accepted Jesus as "hell" is just not biblical. There is not "heaven or hell" but rather "heaven or total destruction". Or to put it another way - immortality, or a finite life. I only use the word "hell" because it's a culturally signifcant word that people can understand. Otherwise, every time I would speak of it, I would have to say "the concept of the place where people who not accepted Jesus or his message", which is a bit of a mouthful, isn't it

That said, and to maybe play Devil's Advocate on my own beliefs here (but I would be remiss not to say it), you can make an argument that the soul is indeed immortal. In which case, the view of separation comes into consideration. Even if the soul is immortal (and I do not believe it is), then it is not a place of torture. It would be separation, as you said before. In this case, it would be a matter that a person spends their life denying God, and so when the time comes, God just gives them what they wanted. I would think it more cruel to force a person to live for eternity with someone who they continually denied for their whole life. I should also add that even if this were the case, it would still be unbiblical to refer to this place of separation as "hell" since none of the references in the Bible which use the word "hell" refer to the place of separation.

But as I said, I think there is a strong biblical case for a finite soul with the gift of immortality for those who accept it.

Hope that helps, norwood

Ok, that's really weird, you are mad and insulted when someone tells you you're going to hell, a place you don't believe in.

If an atheist tells me I'm gonna die and lie in the cold hard ground and that's all there is to it, i'm never insulted.


If a believer in reincarnation told me my karma was gonna get me and I was going to come back as a banana slug for my next life, I'd hardly be insulted; why? because I don't believe in being reincarnated as a slug, just like you (and I) don't believe in hell. I'm never insulted (perhaps amused) when someone tells me I'm going to hell. Never.

Why expend energy being angry over something you don't believe in. I don't... it's not worth my time.

no you misunderstand me. It's what is behind the useage. "your going to hell " is just another way of saying " your less than" veiled in the vestiges of religious belief. It's not hell , but the point of egotism in thinking they are better than anyone else. Think of how whites made blacks sit in the back of the bus because they weren't thought of being worth any more than that.

that's what this eluded too -

But I do think man uses it to verbally in a way of a sort of segregation that smacks of elitism ( again the 'I'm better than you' thinking. which is how alot of christians use it.

the thing is if you've never been in this position you may not be able to relate to it.

I have to say Lt Ripley I have never heard it explained quite that way. I find it very sad that someone equates being better than others because of their beliefs! I am a christian and most certainly believe in God and Jesus Christ and I would see it as a great blessing to have more friends with my beliefs so the last thing I will do is try and intimidate them or scare them away in any way. What ever happened to God is love and sharing Gods love, I think its great to share that with others and while I do believe there is a hell I would not say to someone hey you believe the way I do or your going to hell. That's just wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Always a pleasure