Hey guys,

I know someone who seems to be going through a hard time regarding breaking away from Christianity.

Basically, this person was raised in an environment where Christianity was a huge part of everything, and was taught the rules and ways of Christianity from a young age. As this person got older, their faith remained strong, and was happy with his beliefs. In his mid twenties, he stumbled upon some reading material that argued (successfully) against something he had formerly believed, associated with Christianity, and he was not able to ignore it. One piece of his strong belief system had been proven wrong, and it made sense, and it made the entire structure of his belief system seem less stable.

He began to try and educate himself, on other belief systems, or on not having religious beliefs at all. He got into science, into psychology and his faith continued to be shaken.

He is stuck now, he is caught between wanting to believe that everything he has known and believed since childhood is right. It feels safe and it comforts him, and he is also scared that if it is correct, that he disappointing not only his family, but God. But he also can taste the freedom that comes with leaving Christianity, and has comprehended the evidence against some of his beliefs, and probably won't ever be able to go back to the non-questioning state of "ignorance is bliss" that he was in before.

I do not want to sway him one way or the other. This is a person that I want to be happy and be free of the guilt and shame and fear that he is feeling. If he can find that in Christianity, thats what I want, although that is not the path I took. What do you guys think would be the best way for him to sort out these questions. I know he has to do this on his own, we all do, one way or another, but I know some of you have gone through things like this, and had different outcomes, so advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Questioning and education can usually lead to two conclusions. Either he decides Christianity is not for him and moves on, or he beliefs are made stronger for it.

No one should subscribe to a religion just to please others. That is being false to them, whatever entity/ies that may be involved, and to themselves.

If he has no personal proof of the Spirit then I agree Christianity might not be for him and will just bind him to a dead faith. On the other hand I feel freedom in my Christianity, I do not live in a state of non-questioning or 'ignorance is bliss', but I constantly question and gain more knowledge.

If someone has a problem with believing which gets the Spirit working then we can pray as the following man did:



If you are looking for a way to convert someone to either Christianity or atheism, sorry I do not know how to do that. If all it took was convincing speech and arguments then it might be simple and who knows maybe that is all it takes to convert to atheism but that is not something I know about.

If he is searching for spiritual perfection in any belief system, including atheism, he is not going to find it.

The fact that you equate freedom as being non-Christian indicates that any contact with you cannot help but sway this person as a great deal of communication is non-verbal.

My best suggestion if you truly wish to help is to accept that there are Christians that are every bit as free as you are and he can then feel comfortable in not sensing that you would think less of him if he retains many Christian beliefs.

Excatly my mom wants me to be a Christian just so she won't worry about me going to hell. Your right either two things will happen he'll grow stronger in his faith or he'll find something else that fits him better.

My advice is to give his existing belief system its best fair shot at keeping him. If it succeeds, then so be it. If he breaks free, then as an adult with an established ego, family, and social structre, he's got some work to do to rebuild. Being confident that it's worth it can only help, IMO.

For a Chrisitian (you didn't say which denomination), I would recommend C.S. Lewis. For the next few weeks, Google will be preoccupied with the second movie made from his children's series, but his adult apologetics is all over the web.

As a fine introduction to Lewis with balance, I would suggest the book and program, The Question of God, much of whose content is available without charge from its producer,

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/

Lewis is set in counterpoint with Freud, perhaps resonant with your friend's apparent interest in psychology.

I did not equate that, he did.


He suggests that he has held himself back from things he should have done, because of his beliefs. I believe anyone can be "free" in any belief, as long they believe they are free.

Thought I would underline a few key words. Quite interesting that it might just all be perception. I would still rather would want proof than to simply believe without having a reason to other than cultural reasons or to fit in.

I think it's more of a "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" kinda thing... But in this case it actually is... IMO!

As far as I can see there are only two ways to go here. One is to keep on questioning and seeing where that path leads him. The other is of course to stop questioning and hoping he can keep the doubt so far back in his head that he's not aware of it. To me there's no choice really but to go on questioning, as someone else said it might strengthen his faith or it might destroy it.
The only way is forward.

Hello Sundogdaze.
Terrible dilemma for your friend to be in.

It sounds like the problem may lie with the dogma more than a faith or willingness to believe issue. If he is older and has done research into different world beliefs then he knows there is more than one value system/dogma in the Christian community. If it is lingering qualms about feeling that there is nothing inside any Christian community and this person just wants out all together there is nothing anyone can say, on either side of the fence, it's up to him. Yet it's got to be difficult to see someone that you care about hurting. Just let him know that you're there and be a sounding board for him to talk to/with.
I wish you both good luck!

Regards,
Mabon.

Christianity is nothing without the love of Jesus. If he loves Jesus he will believe.

It sounds like he isn't a Christian anymore and wants to live a life in sin, but he can't seem to get those little pesky messages out of his head that what he is doing is wrong. Unfortunately, ever since Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree, humans have had the ability to know right from wrong. There is nothing that can be done about that.

This being said from a Christian perspective of course.

I'm sorry I can't agree with you here.

You can't just claim to love Jesus and then all of sudden have no doubts. You can love Jesus with all your heart and still have questions that lead you to doubts.

What do you even consider a Christian? Someone who never has doubts? Or someone who pretends they don't? My friend loves Jesus very much. That's why this is so hard for him.

I was in his exact same shoes. It was the whole creationsim/evolution debate that started it for me. It was a long process, and not easy.

Now I am not a Christian and I am happy. I feel free of guilt, questioning myself all the time, questioning if God is pleased with me, free of dogma, "Christianeze" and rituals.

I have been abused and been mocked by my family. They feel I have turned to Satan or to New Age. They treat me terribly and not like family at all. So much for Chistian love huh?

Anyhow, the fact that he questions his faith makes me smile.

It's great over here on the dark side, we have cookies.

faith , feeling that faith , is an inside job no matter what belief. He'll have his answer when he finds it. no one or book can do it.

one can believe in a certain faith as well and struggle with it from time to time. it's how we grow. to not struggle and question is to remain stagnate and reliant on what others tell you.

ps - heck , mother teresa struggled and doubted.

I was thinking along the same lines, Clovis. It is interesting how SunDog worded that sentence, to give the distinct impression that the simple equation is: Leave Christianity = freedom. Constructing his sentence in such a way speaks volumes. I get the impression that SunDog's opinion is that if people seriously question their Faith in the Bible, it will lead to unbelief (and I don't want to take this off-topic, but by extension that necessarily implies that if you believe then you haven't questioned).

Just a thought.

Too much is being made of how the OP phrased one sentence. It is the gentleman who is undergoing the crisis who made the connection between freedom and leaving his natal religion. That he did so is an important fact to know about his situation for us to offer advice about it.

There really is such a thing as "total" religion, just as in politics there is such a thing as a "total" state. Both Christians and Muslims have posted on these boards about comprehensive retrospective personal accountability for every thought, word, and deed. One Muslim poster thoughtfully reminded his readers that they are under scrutiny even in the toilet.

That is oppression. It is not a necessary feature of religion, or even of Abrahamic religion. Jewish thought has a rich tradition not only of a "sphere of privacy" in one's relationship with God, but even standing to argue, to negotiate, and if it somes to that, to scold God.

Not all Christian sects are "total," but some are. It is astonishing that the gentleman is having this crisis in full adulthood rather than adolescence. Where has his mind been for ten years? Of course, there could be any number of explanations.

But given that his word for the alternative to his religious experience is freedom, I would suspect that he was born into a "total" sect, successfully "policed himself" for a decade, and now, finally, tastes freedom and finds it sweet.

To say that does not disparage anybody else's experience of Christianity, which could be entirely different from his. People say enough bad things flat out about one another's religion that it seems silly to go looking for insulting intention in a material, factual observation simply reported.

Fair enough. I missed that particular post, but considering it was he who said it, then so be it. That wasn't made clear in the OP, apologies for missing the follow-up comment

This would be enough to make me want out if I was a Christian, perhaps this is things like this is why he is leaving.

I just want to clear up something.

He has never said to me that leaving Christianity equates to freedom. I may have jumped the gun on that one, but he has stated that his beliefs have held him back from some things. Opportunities that he would have taken otherwise, things like that.

In my mind, being able to go forth with something with no restrictions is what freedom is, which is why I chose that word. I could have substituted "liberty" or "independence" or "non-restriction" judging by his opinion, and to me, those all mean the same.

Anyway, back on topic.

I talked to him about this for a while last night. I may not be the best person for him to talk to, because I have already been through this in my own way, and come to my own conclusions, which I do not want to press onto him. I basically just asked him questions and let his answers speak to himself.

I think he is scared because of the idea that you don't have to believe in God for him to exist. If that is the case, and my friend loses his faith and succumbs to the (ahem) freedom that he would have in doing so, what happens when the day of reckoning comes and the God he doesn't believe in really does exist?

Actually, I would say that that is exactly what I was scared of. I don't know how I got past that, so I don't know how to help him do the same, or even if I should.

Perhaps you might like what my family does.
We tell them that if it is logical then it came from God and if it is not logical then it was something made up by man, usually for power over others.

It helps to sort through the morass of any faith, not just the texts of Christianity.

How about Keeping what is good and what he does believe about Christianity, and discarding the rest?

Think for your self.

There is no one way to God, or Spirituality, The individual is here to experience His or her eternal spirit, and will judge it's progress after each life,

The preacher and Congregants won't be with the individual when he or she judges his own spirit after this life , so why should one let them decide which Belief to believe in during this life?


Or let a book written in the infancy ofthis world dictate How one should believe?

Take all that is good from Your religions and Holy books and aply them to your life, Making a belief.

Check These beliefs against your Heart, This will tell if it is true..

If it involves love it can never be wrong.

Love Omnaka

Omnaka, this is awesome.

This is how I live. I just didn't know it.

I will definitely pass this along to him. I like this a lot, and it is so simple.

Aye, becoming an adult often means rejecting some of your parents beliefs. It is an unfortunate truth that some things you have been brought up with, the building blocks of your belief systems are wrong/unsuitable for you. Everybody wants to please their parents.

I think this type of thing truly takes time to filter through all the levels of your conscious/unconscious until you find some way to be at peace with it. Sort of like cognitive dissonance.

You sound like a good friend, to be asking for him

100% agree Oh I love the one where they say, "he/she probably wasn't saved to begin with." Yeah, Christians are brutal when you find a different path.

Únfortunately not enough information is provided to really address this issue. I can make assumptions, but they might be unfounded. It sounds like this person predicated his actions on his belief system.

Now that his belief system has changed, in retrospect he feels that he would/should /could have acted differntly.

Theres no point in looking back . 'He probably gained some life advantages as well as disadvantages under his old belief system.

Count the blessings as well as the missed opportunities.

The more impt thing is to look at his current belief sysem and to establish a new code of behaviour which fits within that.

Of course no one is ever truly free, either from the restictions placed on them by the people/society, they live with, or from their current belief system . the best one can do is look at it honestlyand openly, doing a cost benefit analysis which includes ;self family, friends and community.

For example, much as i would like to spend more time on UM, right now, my wife and my dog are expecting me to take him for a run, and a swim along the beach.. My freedom is thus curtailed by my responsibilies. Those responsibilities are incurred because i love, and thus care about the reactions of my wife, and my dog, if i do not fulfil those responsibilities. If i did not care, i would continue to stay on Um

See you all.

I'm not sure when this was posted, but it looked like an interesting thread. I went through this myself. My spiritual journey has been a bit of a crazy one. Was raised Christian, later became an agnostic, then went back to Christianity, and finally, to a more gnostic pov. I was actually going to Bible school, I was studying to be a minister; but the more I was there, the more I found myself disagreeing with what I was being taught, even though I was raised on it. Two things really got to me. Hell and intolerance. I remember one lecture where they were condemning Buddhists for not recognizing a personal god. Even said something like 'the road to hell can be paved with good intentions'-inferring that even though they live peaceful, loving lives, because they do not call on God, they are going to end up in hell. I just don't believe that. If God is one, then we are one with Him, and with each other.

As he looks at other religions, encourage him. I've studied everything from Hinduism to Sikhism at this point, and feel the better for it spiritually. My faith is actually much stronger now than when I was just looking at Christianity. It may lead him to a wider, more embracing view of religion in general. I think all religions are essentially true, just different roadmaps back to the same Source.

Thank you! I think he is more along the lines of having no religious beliefs, actually, as I think he is pretty well versed in many religions and has yet to have anything click for him. I could be wrong, I don't live inside in his head, but I think his logic is telling him that religion doesn't make sense for him.

Religion IS pointless in that it only serves as a teacher, it is what is applied from same that matters. Live a spiritual life, not a religious one.

This is so easy for him. All he needs to do is change a little perspective on Christianity.

1 ) Realize alot of the bible is symbolic not literal

2 ) Use his intuition on what he ought to take literal or symbolic

3 ) See Jesus as a genuine spiritual sage who like many before and after, has more or less the same message of love, spiritual liberation, non-violence and truth seeking.

4) Realize that you can still appreciate Christ and Christian insights without having to accept Christ as some exclusive messiah. Christianity is an inner religion which ought to grow as we grow and give us new insights whether they be written in the bible or not. The absolute ridgity of a non-comprising religion is that which Christ speaks against and not for. The bible itself says: 'for the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.'

The rest is fairly self-evident.

I'll leave with a quote from Mahatma Gandhi:

God has no religion.

Right on, brother!!

faith is an inside job no matter what you believe . and a struggle from time to time in any faith is common. a part of growth. people out grow faith all the time. or grow into a faith. there is no one right choice. there just is.

my advice is to put all text down , stop asking people for their opinions , push all you thought you knew about God out and start from scratch from the inside. You have all you need already.

As I progressed in my own faith, a lot of prayer and alot of study, God himself showed me things about christianity that went against what i had learned in church(several different denominations).
I came to realize that most of what was taught in the church was....well, wrong. It was twisted and used as a means of control, traced back to the founding of the catholic church. The protestant churches broke off from the catholic church, over certain points, but continued to follow a large part of the ideoligies and tenets of catholism, including the hateful teachings, and the force conversion by the sword mentality. as well as if you don't follow what we call god, then you are evil and going to hell.

I learned this by studying not only other religions, but also the bible. amazingly there are mentioned in the old testament others besides the jews who followed God, or who began following God because of soemthing done or said by a prophet-without following judaism. the old testament specificaly states that the jews were chosen and given the laws they were to set them apart from others-for a reason. much of the old testament applies only to jewish people, not gentile believers.

what did jesus teach- be nice to each other, help each other out, if you have been blessed with abundance, share it with those who are in need, honor the FATHER. The only people Jesus ever condemned where the religious leaders of teh time, who acted as if they were special and more holy than others and who put rules and regulations on the people that was more burdonsome than what God intended.

Reaching out with love, compassion and forgiveness to everyone. being honest in our dealings with others both personal and professional, and striving to not harm others is what we are supposed to be doing.

tell your friend to take time to read the 4 gospels again, as well as the book of james, carefully. tell him to compare what they say with what the churches are teaching now. It is no bad thing to find truth after being falsely led by others who have been falsely led, etc. It is only bad to discard the truth with the false. Tell him to pray, and ask for wisdom and understanding before he reads and to have a talk with Father about this before he makes a choice.

If he doesn't want to leave his beliefs in God, but doesn't want to be illogical then tell him to look into Orthodox Judaism

Info Here

More Info

Better Info

Thanks guys, there has been some great advice in this thread.



Although it seems so easy to for you and me and others who have already been down this road, but remember that it's really hard to go against the grain of what you have been taught your whole life. A lot of churches teach that it is the work of the devil making you feel like you need to gain information, or giving you doubt, which just reinforces the fear and guilt. I haven't talked to my friend about it lately, but as far as I know he has read this thread, at least part of it, so thanks on his behalf!