http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national...41-425295ee1e9b


"Sick boy seized to force chemo treatments
Canwest News Service
Published: Thursday, May 08, 2008
HAMILTON - Child welfare authorities on Thursday seized an 11-year-old cancer-stricken boy from his parents to compel the child to take chemotherapy.

He has an aggressive form of leukemia and has already had some chemotherapy. But his parents say the treatment was ineffective and caused the lad great suffering. So, as a family, they decided to cease further treatments.

They had been told that even if the boy were to survive chemo, he likely would need a marrow transplant and even then, the prognosis for recovery was estimated at only 40-50 per cent.

The family, who cannot be identified to protect the child's identity, arrived at McMaster Children's Hospital for what it had been told was a routine appointment. That's when the Hamilton Children's Aid Society stepped in.

The father told CHCH News that the boy began to wail when the CAS appeared to tell him he would be forced to take treatments.

"If you're going to do treatment, then please advise us, and we'll back up, and wait for you to apprehend him so that we can still stand behind our child's wishes," the father said.

A heated argument followed. And all the while, the boy was screaming "I don't want this! I don't want this! I don't want this! Why won't you ever listen to me? Please somebody listen to me,'" the father reported.

He said when he tried to call his lawyer, hospital security guards were summoned. He says he was manhandled, handcuffed and along with his wife, evicted from the hospital. Police also were called but refused to lay charges.

The father says the CAS did not have a court order and as of Thursday evening, the family still had not seen one.

But the boy was admitted to hospital. It is unclear if the chemotherapy has started.

Hospital spokesman Jeff Vallentin dismissed the family's story as hearsay, although he would neither confirm nor deny the details.

He also cited the Privacy Act and the jurisdiction of the CAS, saying he could not talk about the case.

He would not say at what time the court order went into effect, or what transpired beforehand. "

Oh this makes me MAD.

No one, not even an 11 year old should be forced into chemo if they don't want it.

11 year olds who are going through serious illness like this are incredibly savvy about their health and treatment; he's been through one round of chemo and knows he doesn't want a second round. It must be left up to him and his parents to decide his course of treament. This is NOT ok. He clearly knows what the pros and cons are of treatment... he and his family have chosen to do something else. Their choice, not child protective services choice.

Good god, what is the medical community and government coming to? If I were these parents, I'd be draining my bank account to hire big gun lawyers to deal with this one. I'm not litigous by nature, but this is one time where I'd call someone in to fight for my child's wishes.

I totally agree with you . You know , my own mom has been on chemo for about four years now .. being more sick of it , than of her disease ..

This boy was hijacked , kidnapped .. you name it . This is medical terrorism.

This is a nightmare any parent would agree, My heart hurts for this child and his family its a decision I hope I never have to make but I agree it should be for the family not a court.

I have issues with CPS anyway... they seem to either react too quickly without thought... OR, they don't act quickly enough.

My nephew (or rather my sister's nephew) was taken from his mother by CPS because by the time he was a month old, he'd had numerous broken bones. OK, that sounds on the surface like a real problem right? I get that. However, his whole family, mother, father, grandparents, were crying to CPS to have him tested for a medical condition, since they were certain no one purposely harmed the baby. CPS refused to listen or refused to get a better medical opinion. CPS basically kidnapped the boy and placed him in foster care. Where he ended up with a severe spiral fracture in his arm not more than 2 days later.

His grandmother went and essentially kidnapped him and took him to a childrens hospital in another state where he was diagnosed with brittle bone disease (OSI III). The whole family left the state where they were living to avoid prosecution. God only knows how long he would have went undiagnosed in foster care.

He's also refused treatment over the years at various times, and for years and years refused "rodding" treatment, where docs go in and place metal rods in the bones to strenghten them. CPS tried to force that on him as well.

Medical terrorism is an appropriate term.

Last time I checked leukemia was deadly anyways... So he gets the treatment and has a chance or doesn't get the treatment and dies a quite horrible death over an extended period of rotting away.

It's not exactly nice to force someone into treatment. Personaly If i was stricken with a similaraly terminal ilness I would like the right to die, or even the right to euthanasia...

But isn't there something about having your own choice? He has a choice he wants to or does not want to take the treatment. People these days are really sick. Always thinking they are doing good when they are actually doing something bad.

It's just a child though. He needs someone to look out for him... Mostly I'd say it would be the parents but when they refuse possible life saving treatment to a kid that is going to die without it... Someone else has to step in.

As for euthanasia, it's far too soon for that option even if it did exist (which it should) I believe. It should be only a last resort when more reasonable options have already been considered.

Even if someone else has to step in, the choice of the child should and must be taken into account. Democracy is going twisted.

Would you bye a lottery ticket if you knew you had a 40% chance of winning the Megamillions jackpot, even if you knew you would have to drink something once a day that would make you puke for months in order to purchase it?

Most people would I think.

I've seen the effects of chemo and they can be much more horrific that that, I would not wish that on my worst enemy. That is hardly a fair comparison IMO.

He should have the choice to be allowed to live some quality of life and he made his choice.

But in 10 years time, if it works, do you think he will be saying that he'd rather have died?

I agree.

Obviously some people here have never spent any time around terminally ill children. This boy is terminal. Terminally ill children are wise well beyond their years. They've gone through more than most of us as adults have. I'm heavily involved in a charity for ill children, I see and talk to them a lot. It's brutal. Their diseases cause them to grow up well faster than they should have to, but that's just the way it is. A child that's been through one round of chemo knows what's in store, and the second round will likely be MORE aggressive. He understands the choice he made, he probably understands it better than most adults.

Some of you give these children too little credit.

While I understand that this kid knows what it's like being on chemo and doesn't wanna go through that again, I don't think a kid, maybe a 16 or 17 year old but certainly not an 11 year old, should be left to make his or her own decision in a life or death matter like this. I understand that kids who are terminal are more mature than other kids, but they are kids just the same. They haven't had time to actually grow up and acquire the ability to decide what's best for them. Personally I think CPS did the right thing here. I know that you guys are all gonna jump down my throat for saying that, but that's just my opinion.

My daughter would have had the maturity at age 11 to choose, and she's never been sick a day in her life. A child that's been living with aggressive cancer is most certainly mature enough to choose. I know it.

It's hard to hear, it's hard to say; but honestly, some people are just destined to die, and they know it, even at 11 years old. Like I said, you give these children too little credit. What CPS is forcing that child to do is tantamount to torture--cruel and unusal. Having been around children with similar plights, I would NEVER force a treatment like aggressive chemo if they were well informed on the pro's and con's (and trust me, they are informed). Not ever. The ones that choose treatment, also do so with all the information available to them, and that's ok too. He chose no more. No more torture, no more life. His choice, I'm glad his parents are strong enough to support him in that decision--the hardest decision they will ever have to deal with in their lives.

you are absolutely right .. and as i said before .. what happened to that poor family was sheer medical terrorism .

Word.

No one should be forced into such a treatment.

yes

This seems to be the state of "child protection" in our society. There have been many recent cases exactly similar to this. Katie Wernecke in Texas. A case in Massachusets. It is medical terrorism. And in fact most states juvenile court laws treat children as property. They do not have any rights per se. It's sad really. The state considers itself to be a better parent than a child's biological parents in all cases. Therefore, they can seize your children as property and force or deny whatever misguided medical efforts they choose. They can get away with this because the law says they can. Children are taught by their parents to be self-reliant, make their own decisions, stand up for their rights, basically all of our ideals. But while they are being taught, they do not have these rights, until they become adults. The state can and very often does, force children into unwarranted and unwanted procedures over their parents wishes and parents can loose their children in these efforts. Please, be outraged. We need to change the laws.

CPS needs to be helping children who really need help.

This young man was making fully informed decsions along with medical professionals, loving parents, and his own experience. This is NOT a child in danger. Yes, he might die, but he might die with or without the drugs. There's no guarentee either way.

While CPS was spending all this time and money on a sick, but well cared for and well loved boy, there was a child out there whose parents or caregivers were mistreating them. CPS needs to be out helping THOSE children, they're the ones crying for help. Not this young one; he cried when CPS terrorized him and took him from his genuine support system.

This kind of thing makes me SO furious.

I don't know that much about the Canadian system(s), but who is going to foot the bill on the forced chemo?...

At 11, my cousin was diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma, and had to be treated with chemotherapy. True, she was sick for a long time, but in the end she was alright.

Who's to say that the parents won't turn facts around if the child were to die?

The child in this story has already been through one round of completely ineffective chemo. He knows what he's in for. He's decided he doesn't want to do it again and more aggressively. He knows there is a very high chance he will die, he knows it's permanent, so do his parents. I wouldn't remove that choice from someone. Never.

I'm glad your cousin is doing well... I have a friend that had Lukemia, he's doing well too these days. However, I would never ever remove the choice from someone who is well informed about their course of treatment, and this child IS well informed.

From what I have read elsewhere, there is question as to how much chemo the kid had before, which is why the article is very careful in saying "some" rather than saying a round of chemo or something that indicates that the child was indeed treated completely the first round. That raised a major red flag for me. How much have they done for the kid? We are only getting one sire of this so it is hard to say.

I work in the medical field and we have very strict rules as to who can be treated and who cannot. Without parents around, "Implied consent" laws allow us to treat kids in an emergency. It is assumed that the normal sane adult would want their kid taken care of if they were not there. If the parent is not there, then the parent has the right to withhold treatment. It has made for some tough situations.

Chemo is difficult. No doubt. It appears to be one of those things where the medicine appears to be worse than the disease. That isnt the case though, and in the long term it helps.

When there was a story about the parents who prayed instead of taking their diabetic child to the doctor, and the kid died, everyone was up in arms. Rightfully so in my opinion. That is horrible neglect. Criminal neglect. Where do we draw the line? 50% chance of recovery to me is something that I would try for in regards to my child, even if it did make them sick, specially knowing that death is the definate outcome if I do nothing.

So if this parent had prayed instead of medical care, would it been OK to take the kid away? how about 70% chance of survival? Where is that line at, where parents are no longer parenting, but are neglecting their duties as a parent and the community must step in to do something? I see it often and see the judgement calls that are made on behalf of kids in situations like this.

It isnt so cut and dry. When you are staring that kid in the face it makes it a completely different situation.

It seems that people often forget that for it to really work, you got to want it to work, if the child doesn't want to go through chemo again, then who are we to force that type of suffering on someone for our own greed, it seems like child services today really have no clue, I have heard so many horror stories but this really takes the cake.

So often Kratos and I wind up on opposite sides of an issue, but in this case, I CAN see his point. Too often parents are vilified for acting in what THEY BELIEVE are the best interest of the child. Whether for religious reasons, personal preferences, traditional/cultural reasons, people do make choices that YOU may disagree with. Where do you draw the line, and at what point do you allow the nanny-state make YOUR decisions FOR YOU? You want socialized medicine, well, stand by for socialized child-care too, whether you like it or not.

I wonder too, how much has this kid thought this through? Is he really capable of making such a choice? I believe his voice should certainly be heard.

I didn't see any mention of him being terminal. Without treatment, he IS terminal.

Well, for it to work, people have to do it. With that type of thinking kids shouldnt be forced to go to school, eat anything but cookies and coke, never do chores, or take an antibiotic shot when they get an infection.

Kids dont want to do anything that implies the least bit of discomfort, which is fine, they are kids. Parents are there to work them through those things, because as adults we all have to do things we dont like from time to time, because it is for the greater good, and our adult minds understand that.

Kids dont have the mind to be able to understand the ramifications of their actions, their brains are not fully developed.

It sucks. We have a pediatric cancer center near where I live and I have to take kids there. It is horrible to see a kid in that kind of condition. It is much better to see them months later with a head of fuzzy hair and out in the yard playing and having a fun and full life because they went through it though. If it were up to the kid, no kid would choose that.

My girlfriend's son was diagnosed with Hodgkins at the age of 14..He began chemo in New York City at one of the best cancer hospitals..He knew the odds, doctor's had even told him he could become sterile, his hair falling out, the whole nine yards that went with chemo...After four treatments, he told his parents "no more". He refused to go back, knew the consequences but was adamant about it. Needless to say his parents, doctors were all upset but couldnt persuade him to continue. Now my girlfriend is very into organic, natural foods, grown off the land and she began reading into this and what it can do for cancer patients. Three houses down from her a neighbor grew organic veggies, and my girlfriend began cooking these for her son. He craved his Mickey D's but this is what he ate, along with receiving his other nutrients. He actually began feeling better, gaining weight, hair grew back from blond straight to black curly (couldn't figure that one out), went to the dr's. six months later and he was in remission. He is now in his 20's married, has three children and leads a healthy, active life.. What I'm getting at is that he made his own choice at 14 years old, and he was fortunate that it turned out great for him, but it could have gone the other way too. Had he not survived his parents would have blamed themselves.

Exactly!
I agree CPS was WRONG, but maybe that poor kid needs someone to tell him, "This is gonna hurt, this is gonna suck, but you're going to do it, because we, as parents, think it's the RIGHT thing to do, NOT the easy thing to do".
I can't tell you how many times I've had to tell my own children similar things.

What I found interesting and quite telling is that the cops didn't press charges on the parents.

I'll never change my mind on this one unless there's some gaping missing information in this story. This child KNOWS what's up. He's surrounded by medical professionals and obviously parents who love him very much as well.

You're right though, where do we draw the line? I'd draw my line probably a lot more liberally than most people would though--I recognize that. I believe that people, and yes, parents too, have the right to decide the course of treatment, if any for their ill child. Which might even include just prayin' for 'em (I'd never do that, but I'm not sure I want to deny someone else that right).

Then again, I'm not afraid of death, never have been. What I don't like is pain, suffering and torture if one choses not to endure it. Those that chose to endure, will. Those that choose not to, shouldn't have to.

Ya, I REALLY believe that.

I respect that position, I really do, I just had to think about MY kids and what they might do. I MIGHT be forced to make them get treatment. Hell, one of them would rather have let his dog bite go untreated, because at that point the infection was mild swelling and redness, very little puss. A week later it would have been gangrene. He GOT the shot, and got the wound scrubbed.

Where do we draw the line is the question, for sure. SOME parents and kids can make that call...others can't.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with you on that...

But this family has been surrounded by medical professionals, have gone through one round already, they know what's up. It's not just their son's choice... he didn't make the decision alone or uninformed.

I'd be willing to bet that his parents would have wanted him to go through the chemo, but after much consideration and medcial advice, all of them chose differently for their own reason. They need to be given that right. CPS ripped this poor boy from his parents...

I think we do not have the full story.

The fact that the survival rate is so high(40-50%) and the fact that the paper was very careful to use the word "some" chemo rather than "a round" of chemo, tells me that there is more to the story than the idea that the child has even been through a complete round of chemo yet. What is being said just doesnt add up.

They like to use the word "agressive", but something doesnt feel right about what they are saying. I dont think we are getting the whole truth, the parents are saying the treatment was innefective. After "some" treatment (not a complete round) it would be innefective, there is a prescribed amount over a prescribed time, if you dont go through the entire round of chemo, you cant expect it to be effective.

The fact a judge agrees and is compelling treatment leads me to believe that the parents are not being sensible in some way. I honestly dont think that doctors are going to tell a youngster with a 50/50 chance to not go for it, and the judge would have needed a hell of a lot of input from those doctors to make a decision, it isnt just up to CPS workers.

And there are clues in that article that say the opposite as well. No, it's not the full story, that I can certainly agree with.

I still maintain that these kids are well informed, and as a parent, you wouldn't let your child forgo treatment that had a good chance of working. Or I'm assuming these parents would not. They're obviously invoved with their son and love him. You're absolutely right, something in the story is missing, but to me, it looks like it could go either way. But, I'm banking on the idea that CPS and the judge are wrong on this one.

The cops didn't arrest the parents, CPS isn't charging the parents with anything... hmmmm... they're just taking the kid and forcing him into something he's decided he doesn't want to deal with. They didn't even give him and his parents a chance to change their mind with the help of doctors.

Dollars to doughnuts it was an extended family member or friend that called CPS in the first place. If doctors had called (which they're required to do, even in Canada if the child is being mistreated) that would have been front and center in the article, but it wasn't.

So ya, there's a lot missing in this story...

But you see, that just doesn't matter. He can make all the informed decisions he wants. But unfortunately does not have the right to make them.

According to most state laws the child does not have the choice in the first place. You can't remove something he does not have. Unfortunately. Most people are simply unaware of this.

Sorry big bunny we're going to have to disagree. After first hand experience of this kind of fascism, in my opinion, the parents should be left to their own devices. Under no circumstances should the state decide that the children should be forced medical care. My line is zero percent. And it's precisely for the reason you've stated, where would you draw a line? Either parents are responsible for medical decisions for their children or they are not. Most state laws and CPS agencies beleive today that they are not. But consider, that medical science is not all knowing, omniscient. Treatments change constantly. Long held ideas change. And sometimes VERY rapidly to the point that many medical people are painfully unaware. I used to think the religious nuts were crazy but medicine generally does not consider religious issues in treatment. So yes, it's sad, parents prayed, girl died. But we have to let parents parent. The state is not a parent nor is it a better parent. The state is even less intelligent when it comes to medical care. I'm not a religious nutter or believe in new age medicine. But forced medical effort is just wrong - in my opinion.

To belabor the point, the child protective agencies of most US states, and most state laws, can force that on any child because they have no rights.

I'm not arguing the point that they have rights, they most certainly do not in the eyes of CPS. However, my point is that this child is not unaware of his situation, his parents love him, his doctors are presumably taking care of him in the best way they know how.

My problem is that there are other kids out there that really DO need CPS's help--some kid out there that really needs help is being ignored in lieu of this debachle. Why in God's Green Earth are they pestering this poor family who are simply doing the best they can given the circumstances and the information they have available to them.

But then again, my retired mother-in-law works for free for CPS as a family advocate/mentor. The kids she has charge of are needing help and she does it out of the goodness and expense of her heart and wallet. Child Services are stretched thin beyond belief in both Canada and the USA. This is not one of the children that needs their help.

CPS can be so stupid as well. Last year, they investigated ME. One of my neighbors called them because "my little girl" didn't go to school and was home alone all day. Hello, she's TWENTY and never went to school for that matter. How dumb! A simple records search would have shown them that she was 1. a Sr. in college 2. Not a minor. 3. That her grandmother works for CPS!



Moronic and wasteful.

I got a little more detail on the situation from a video clip on CNN. The kid is 11 years old, but suffers from fetal alcohol syndrome, in this case giving him the reasoning skills of the average 8 year old...not exactly able to make educated medical treatment decisions for himself...

According to the dad, he had cancer when he was 7 years old and it went into remission after going through chemotherapy, but with this relapse the boy had told his dad he would rather go organic and use herbs and such to treat his cancer. How someone with FAS and the reasoning skills of an 8 year old comes up with this medical plan is beyond me, but that is what I gather from the clip...

If this little guy did come up with this, then I say go for it. In post #30, I stated what happened to my girlfriend's son. All organic foods, herbs, remission and at this point he is a healthy man. Now I'm not saying this works for all, but if he is so against chemo it's worth a shot...

When you are dealing with a human life, such serious consequences need a bit more consideration in my opinion. My best friends parents won the oregon lottery when I was in high school, that doesnt mean that I am going to use that as an investment tool, because the odds are so incredibly against that, and in this case the 50-50 odds that the child would have with treatment drop incredibly fast with "organic" treatments, and science has tons of medical research to back up those claims.

There are spontaneous remissions that occur too, where no treatment is rendered and there is remission, and a person could apply any number of factors to that remission... a miracle, the cheeseburgers he ate, the type of cognac he drank...without research it is impossible to say.

An 8 year old(his mental capacity), a child with FAS, is not likely able to comprehend the results of his actions in a matter of this magnitude. There just isnt enough brain development there to balance the risk/reward factors; it is a pretty advanced concept. saying it is worth a shot makes it rather trivial, as if he has a "second shot" if the first shot doesnt work. His best shot is with proven medical care...a 50-50 chance.

At 8 years old the only thing that would be going through my mind is that it makes me feel really really ill