I think we all have choices and we pay the consequences when we choose the obvious wrong choice but we DO have the choice to make!
For those of you here that do believe we are predestined can you then explain why abortion even exist. God's precious gifts to us are not tools to God but His children.
So if predestination is true then your implying that God uses the baby's for some reason. I don't but that at all, Why would God create a life only to be aborted? Why would it make any difference to someone who is willing to kill a baby to begin with? There are so many options for women now and In in my opinion I think it is really wrong to take the life of a baby. I can't imagine God would plan for that precious child to be aborted before he/she was even born. What destiny does that baby have at that point? Does he/she live out their destiny with God?
I think we make choices and we have to live with them.

Always a pleasure

But then I suppose you could say that about almost anything, like childhood disease/cancer/starvation/cruelty. Why would God do that to babies?

People will rationalise anything and everything if it suits what they want to do.

It all depends on one's perspective. People have free will, even if their life is predestined (if you believe in that), so it's the person's choice to have an abortion or not. It's the same principle as miscarriages; why would God create a child only to have it miscarried? That doesn't make any sense either.

Are you asking for people to describe God's plan to you? You are assuming that someone would even be able to comprehend it. Keep in mind that this world is only a short part of what is to come and many times we often forget that.

I agree with a certain point in your post here. We have to make choices all the time, and we have to live with them. No matter how wants to escape doing that, you cannot. I think owning up to your responsibility is what everyone should do.

Now, there are different mindsets on the life of an unborn, and there would be many reasons for why it is looked upon as the way it is looked upon. So, I don't know, if this is an easy question to answer.

That's completely true, and people will often rationalise to abort with good reason.

The strongest reasoning would be in the instance of rape. Although a life has been formed, a woman forced to live with the consequence of someone else should be free to abort.

We do all have choices and we also have the choice to be responsible with our bodies in the first place, ie, take precautions and don't put yourself in such a position where you may get pregnant when you know you don't want a baby or don't want a baby with that person. It shouldn't be a situation where you can do what feels good and then just rationalise away the consequences. I don't imagine God would want the baby to be aborted either and I believe the best way to take care of yourself and others is to take heed of what His will is regarding sex and marriage.

what's to explain ? it explains itself. what ever happens does . as it's supposed to. as an all knowing God sees.

exactly , people believe there is a plan by God yet don't trust God enough to run it. free will is an illusion we need to keep a human frame of reference for our own minds but spiritually all goes according to plan. choice an illusion since at any moment you can only pick one . the one you are supposed too. But to keep that in 'mind' all the time would detract you from the experience itself.

think of it as a play where you are the actor and you have to be so into the role that part of you gets lost in it. ( it happens to actors really) So lost in the role you believe it real. But it isn't. not really. it was an experience . Like an amusement ride and when over you get to see how the dips and turns and rushes all were on one track and there was no way you could have ever left the track , eyes open or not.

remember God is the author of ALL of it. nothing happens that isn't according to plan.

humanly I may not like it ........ that means war , violence , hate , and I keep denouncing such things . ..........but I have to have faith that in all of that there is a purpose. No side taking in it , but a purpose I can't understand being only human.

Now, this is a kind of thinking I do. I am wondering where are you getting this? I don't think this is a given, but I reflect that it could be a possiblity, because we don't know now in this lifetime.

If you believe in any religion at all I think you could assign a meaning to that statement. And since you are asking me personally and not in general, the bible.

We have this life and then we have eternal life, speaking of which my original statement did it no justice at all.

Please excuse my ignorance of the bible, but didn't god in the OT command certain people to sacrifice their children to him as a sign of their faith? Also, didn't god take away all of Job's family to prove to Satan how loyal Job was? Maybe god is doing the same thing today in the form of abortion to test the parents? God didn't mind killing children back then so why would it be any different today?

you assume a being that can simply make more humans cares about a few tiny lives.

to your god you are all expendable.


and on a science note you do realize a human female produces an average of 200 eggs.

God did not command that certain people sacrifice their children. He tested 'one' person to do so and it was a twist since the ancient Israelites abhorred human sacrifice. Many of the surrounding tribes surrounding them even practiced child sacrifice. That is the biblical view.

God gives permission for even our free will choices to occur. Some of those choices hurt us. Satan found a foothold in Job's family, his sons allowed that foothold to happen:



Job made burnt sacrifices for his sons to cleanse there sin and even though he was holy his family clearly was not. Likewise we can pray for those we love but if they choose to go another way then the accuser might find a foothold and send them down the path of destruction. Satan is always looking for an opening and an in:



We should not as followers of God tell other's how to live but when it comes to within our own households as all parents should, they should have authority there, and not allow just anything to happen. Once your children and servants, if you have any, wish to leave your house then they can do as they wish. Some people might balk at this but they might also disrespect authority in general. We should respect the rules of another's home if we wish to live there and if we are born there then until we can leave. This is not to say we have to suffer at the hands of a cruel authority and if someone believes I am advocating that they are wrong. God does not want cruelness even though some might believe that and I will not try and convince 'you' in the least but for 'those' wanting deeper insight there it is.

For this reason did Job lose so much even his own possession but as far as his own person God would not allow Satan to touch Job himself in anyways. Had Job only took the authority of his own household this would have been avoided. That is the most important lesson of Job from a biblical standpoint. Other's can disagree but in the end that is their view.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6)

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

so much for 'Satan'.

And up until the 18th Century AD predestination was the clear dominant belief. It wasn't until people started rejecting God that the concept of free will entered into popular discourse (no god to control outcomes, therefore we can have free will). Today, the roles are reversed - many Christians believe in free will, and with the advance of certain sciences some non-believers in God are questioning the idea that we might just be products of the system and therefore predestined as a result of that system.

from a learned member - PA

For the Scripture says to Pharoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" "

Romans 9:16-19 [NIV]

And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker:

"20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[Isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Romans 9:20-21 [NIV]

and there goes free will -

you can't believe God has a reason for everything that happens and yet believe in free will - there is either a reason or free will. Either God is all knowing or isn't. And the arguement of God knows all yet lets us makes choices is a lame one. If God knows the outcome of everything then all is predestined. no free will.

It would make more sense to me if non-religious people opposed abortion. The reason I say this is because if you are religious, then you know that the moment that baby(Actually just a mass of cells) is aborted, it goes to live forever in Heaven. So why do you care?

I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with values. Those who oppose abortion usually come from evangical upbringings. These upbringings are from what I gather highly family/group orientated. They think more of the group then they do the individual. I don't think there is one married evangical couple who doesn't have and wishes never to have children. For them, children and family are everything, hence their rampant opposition to abortion. It is in a sense an assult on their values.

More moderately religious or non-religious people are brought up to think more of individuality. To them it is about their lives and making their individual lives as enjoyable and best as possible. This is where the zeitgeist has been heading for a long time and it seems to me that it has angered those with traditional family values; and has been the root of this "last stand" of a surge of religious belief.

I'd categorize myself in the latter of values to the extreme. If I had it my way, I would ban human reproduction all together and have people born from test tubes.

I believe in predestination and also believe that abortions are also predetermined.