Another thread got me thinking about how changing belief systems isn’t quite so simple as just going with what seems to be the truth to a person.

How emotionally invested are you in your religion? Would the way you live you life, for example social circle, community standing, job or family/friend relationships change drastically if you started to change your mind on things spiritual? Some people have also come to religion via personal upheaval/turmoil. Would you be cast back into that if you didn’t believe anymore?

Would these things make you more likely to shy away from changing your overarching belief structure?

I know some relationships I have would definitely change if some of my core beliefs changed.

I haven't given up what I believed since I finally left christianity. Actually my faith in God since leaving has gotten stronger.

it took me a while to get over 'christian guilt / fear ' once I made the decision to leave it behind. After years of it ingrained , and that can be any belief , it's hard to actually leave. But for me , my whole time in the christian faith , I knew as well it was wrong. so to stay would have been hypocritical and wrong for me.Even as a kid making my first communion I remember feeling how unnatural it felt. No matter how hard I tried I could never shake the belief that God accepts all mankind regardless of who or what they believed and that was perfection. anything less than wasn't. anything less did and does feel man made and petty.

Yes, I can empathise about one's faith in God becoming stronger after leaving an "institutional, corporate church-organisation". Why? Because, in my opinion, one did not leave the biblical church -- "eklesia" -- that Jesus built; one left a man-made business corporation ... no matter under what name it went.

So ... "What is truth?"
Karlis

No, no change, I havealways been a good Hearted carpenter with a Circle Of family and friends, Because I try to love everyone no matter their Faith, I cant see any change.

When I hear people swear Father I do not run, but ask for forgiveness for them, because they know not what they do, Then they ask what I said, and I tell them I was praying for them, and it opens up discussion.
Love Omnaka

No change for me...My heart and how I treat others is always going to be the same....
I have friends of all classes, relgions, race etc. so my circle would not change either... It is said you need to walk amungst the sinners as Christ did...so I figure here on earth, I'll keep busy. If I make on difference in one person a day, Im off to a great start...

Today I hugged a woman at church who got some great news about a tumor she had..she shared with us during words of concern and or joy.It had shrunk...she was moved to tears, when I, who hardly knew her gave her a hug and said Id continue to pray for her and may continue God bless her....her life means something to me.

The other night my husband and I were driving home from my cousins wedding. I am constantly day dreaming, praying, asking God for answers... The "why is the word this bad, why do peopl;e have to kill, why is there so much hate.....etc" and what can I do to help change it..... my answer came...as we were driving down RT9 home... to the side of the road by someones house was a hugh lit up cross!!! ..... I couldnt beleive it..... But I got my answer...I didnt mention it to my husband or my Mom who was with me...It was my answer. I dont even know if they saw it too, but I dont think they could have missed it. They already think Im nuts and go to far to help as it is.....

My answer! I'll stay just the way I am...

when i lost my faith,i didnt change much of anything my friends stayed the same my family still loved me...when i would do something out of the goodness of my heart i did it for me because i felt it was right not beceause ot was the christian thing to do....even tho i made a big step in openly admitting how i felt about god,,i realized it realy didnt change how i was living because it took me longer to admit to myself i didnt believe anymore then it did to admit it to friends and family.

but then again i always thought of faith as a higly private thing,and never went around talking about it unless it was with close trusted friends....i dont take someone relegion into account on what typ of person they are,i take their actions a person words can be missleading but as long as you pay atention to how they treat others (not you because iof they are lying or trying to trick you out of something they are acting ith you anyway) its how they treat the people you have nothing vested in that matters..

for example take a new person you start to date,,,,,if they do nothing but badmouth and talk bad,and make the life of their x a living hell,,then what do you think they would do to you if yall,brok up....people actions tell everything their faith has little to do with true nature of the person,,,,so changing ones faith shouldnt change the nature of a good man/women

A lot did change for me. My family, although not as strict as some I know, was Southern Baptist. To a T. I never felt like I fit into their mindframe at all, even at a really young age.

I started questioning and was told to stop. I started doubting and was told it was a sin. I was under the impression that even seeking knowledge outside the Bible about these questions was a one way ticket to Hell. But I couldn't stop my curiosity, so I continued, and struggled with the feelings of guilt and fear.

My morals changed, they didn't diminish. I'm not concerned anymore with the guilt of using the term "Oh My God" because I don't believe it is a sin. I am, however, much more accepting of other's faiths because I am no longer being told that mine is the only one that is right.

I think it can be an even trade. You give up some of the beliefs or standards you had, which were probably causing negative effects on you anyway, and you receive others in their place, which are usually much more suited for your character and who you want to be.

The guilt and shame and fear are the worst part about it, and once one can get past that to get to the real heart of what they really truly believe, it's a true freedom, no matter if the beliefs are religious or not.

i never really changed my religion[fight for your dreams] but i must say i have lost my faith in man. and with it any pride in being part of the group.

how does one excel in science when humanity will abuse every discovery.

i have lost faith in parents peers and even myself. every religion is now poisened because humanity has touched it.

yet inspite of this i am almost psychotic about fixing it the correct way.

battered bruised but not defeated. i dont know how to win the fight. but for some reason i refuse to lose.

if only i could remember why i chose to fight. what was my dream and why was it so nessecary to make it happen.

For me I grew up in a strong spiritual family. There was never any pressure for me to believe or not to believe. No scare tactics. No telling me I am going to Hell when I left the church. No telling me I was on the wrong path when I chose the world. My family loves me regardless of my choices. The decision is all mine and it is between me and God. I want to be in His presence.

Humanity. It is fun. Some parts are just rotten not because of religion but because they lack faith. I do not want to be part of that world. I choose God.

I can see two reasons why people once in would want to leave. One they do not want to follow the Word because it condemns them and choose to live in sin and tell themselves the way they live is not sin but it is because they lack the Spirit or never had it that would allow them to overcome all sin. Sure we all have our weaknesses, struggles, and temptations and we always will. Does not mean we have to give in to them. Some can even change the way we act and look. Sad but true.

The other would be because people have instilled fear into them, abused them with it, showed them a wrong form of love or no love at all. They never had the chance to get the Spirit but those who stuck in and found the Spirit will not lose their faith but gain a stronger faith to get away from the spiritual rot of fear and find a new place to grow.

There of course are other reasons and a combination of two or more of them. People should be allowed to leave for God wants no one to be forced or just go through the motions and never feel the Spirit once.

Karlis is right though there is a Church and there are corporate entitiy churches which are not the same. There is a Spirit and there are spirits. Some of the spirits are greed, fear, hate, envy, rumor, malice, etc...

WFTL is right. Pray and seek and you will be given signs and answers. Maybe not the answers we want all the time but answers none the less.

Bottom line is it is between me and God not me and family or society and then God. No middle men. Cut out the middle man. I just saved a bunch of money on my eternal life insurance by switching to Godco.

you just described by life

When I became a Pagan I lost a couple of friends. I wasn't religious before that so it didn't have much effect on my family. My brother didn't like it but he got use to it and gave up trying to convert me. My kids kind of liked the changes in me and they had fun doing rituals and drumming. It helped us all get through a bad time. I think if I changed to an Abrahamic religion my life right now it would change a lot. I wouldn't be able to go to rituals. I could still go to drumming circles and I am sure I would not lose my good friends I have made in Pagan circles, but I would really miss going to rituals. I really do have a lot of emotional investment in my religion. I love my religion and my Gods and Goddess.

We don't have alot of friends which is ok with us the friends we do have would support us no matter what & I think thats what really matters the most.

Thanks guys, they were some interesting responses. It makes me sad that people have a hard time with their families as a result of this. With friends I suppose we all have views of who we think people are, and shared values/activities can be a big part of that. Its funny I am friends with people of all types of beliefs, but it seems not to be that, but the change that people find it difficult to cope with on some level. Like they have to recalibrate who you are now.

by Belle:

You could say, that I do not have a big emotional investment in my belief system, because it's the only one. But considering the many years of believing in it, I think I do have a heavy emotional investment. And yeah, I think it was there, in how I have interacted with family, friends, coworkers, customers, and the rest of the world.

As for shying away from it, if I knew this was going to happen, this emotional investing. No, because if it didn't, there wouldn't be a reason to understand it, in my thinking.

Same here. However, I have learned that if you emotionally invest yourself into your "beliefs" or in other words your persuasion,
then you might come out emotionally wounded. Therefore I do not invest much emotion into my beliefs. However, there is a difference
between passion and emotion. Passion from a non-bias standpoint, leaving yourself open minded and teachable is the greatest thing
that I too have. A readiness to learn is invaluable. When people say "I have faith" what they are really saying is that I am persuaded
or convinced. Regardless of how much evidence they depend on, if those sources were to be shaken, their emotions would fall in the
same pit their beliefs did.

Clovis said a mouthful. Most of what was said sounds like my own spiritual journey.

I'm an "enlightened" Roman Catholic. I say "enlightened" because I experienced a release of the Holy Spirit through the Charismatic Movement. The Pope wouldn't be happy--but since I've been walking with the Spirit, I have gained wisdom regarding my church and my God. I realized that anything that man touches is subject to error--and I no longer believe in the infallibility of the Pope or the institutional church.

I do believe in the infallibility of the Holy Spirit, especially when it works through the Body of Christ. I know that there will be all sorts of people in heaven, not just Catholics, or Baptists, Muslims or Jews--but all those deserving will be there, no matter what their religion.

Our God is too big, too awesome for us to put him/her/it in a little box of religious dogma.

That being said, I still am a Catholic. Why? Because I love my Catholic Community--the Body of Christ. I love the Sacraments. I love the long, historical tradition of its teachings. I love the sense of belonging. I hope to change what I don't like in my church. What other religion would I turn to? Every religion has their problems, too--it's the nature of man to screw things up.

Why do I still follow Jesus? He had such style, such grace, such compassion and such wisdom. He's pretty much my favorite person.

Many people lose their faith when they gain knowledge. I haven't lost my faith--my faith has been enriched from what I've learned and studied. For that, I've been very blessed--and I'm very thankful.

Living without faith pretty much sucks.

Very true Howdy Doo and for a long time I grew up in a church saying other churches were wrong but that belief in itself is wrong. More and more within the last decade I have seen proof that the Spirit is not just contained in a small box of a certain belief system. The Spirit has been and still is in the process of an explosion in many churches and denominations who are all of the faith. It is a joy to hear that Catholics are experiencing this renewal of the Spirit. They charismatic movement with the Catholic system goes back several decades now. It was a joy to hear that someone left the 'church' as I grew up to consider it because of issues but they found a new church, either Episcopalian or Presbyterian, I forget which now, but through them they took their beliefs and form of worship and now that that whole small church they joined as gone through a spiritual explosion.

Joel 2 speaks about this and the whole chapter is just beautiful but we are in the time of promise when we shall be restored and the early and latter rain will be abundant. We are in the time when the Spirit shall be poured in the flesh in many places. The world itself is going through a spiritual renewal in many parts.





I cannot agree with you more that 'living without out pretty much sucks.'

and that is only your opinion. not any sort of fact nor truth for anyone else but yourself.

Some have more spirit than you yet don't believe in your version of God. The Word is man written , not God written. man's ideals not Gods. you believe in mans words... I have yet to see in print Gods word. All text has been man made. that's fact .

Just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they are 'sinning' , lack spirit ,are less then , or better than you in Gods' eyes. Can't accept a God that big ? well your loss. Some like myself have gained a stronger faith in God by leaving man made texts behind. Many who stick with man made texts are filled with rot and fear as you put it.

your using a man made implement to measure God - your going to find you come up short. always.

All that you just stated is just your view as well and none of it is some fact that we should instantly accept. I respect your view and I might be assuming but I perhaps wonder if your view is only formed because the Bible condemns some part of your lifestyle. That is fine and all that you reject the Bible but to claim it it is not fact is your opinion only. Trust me though when I say I respect your view. The Bible is not for everyone even if everyone could benefit by it. It is well that you do not believe in it for those who do not but stay stuck in the system tend to make equally bad examples of the faith as much if not more than those who do believe in it but condemn others as wrong just for disagreeing. You are not wrong just because we disagree.

I will never come up short by applying the Bible as my guide along with prayer to communing with the Spirit. As far as judging which individuals have more of the Spirit or judging who is saved and not...that is not my call. Go ahead and do so if you wish but the Bible says we should not. I do know that it also says those who reject the Word and do not have the Spirit are none of His. That is just my view though and is never used to tell others they are on the wrong path.

no , because I didn't believe the bible long before I came out. long before I realized sexuality. It didn't make sense to me as a kid . It makes no sense now .Your try at justification of why I don't believe as you do is only trying to shore up what you believe -- I'm fine with what I do. Am closer to God now than before with the bible.

the bible says those who reject the word and do not have the spirit are none of his --------- the man made man written bible - not God.

and you have repeatedly told others they are wrong. You assume that they have no relationship with God because it isn't through your man made book. Or your way of faith. and that is where your wrong. yes - wrong. you hold no corner stone on God. nor can any book claim to really know God.

an example of the way the bible views God -- as a contradiction unto Gods' self. man written and heavily edited -------- one could not say what God had written and what man did.

God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man,
that he should repent.
- Numbers 23:19

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his
people.
- Exodus 32:14

that's only one of many........... I know .. the context , but even then the context doesn't always measure up. the bible is a collection of very seperate books written by various persons who had for the most part no contact with each other let alone jesus. over hundreds of years.

Is it Gods word ? Just as much as mine are.

Another thing I found through my journey is that the Bible is a wonderful tool for life. I agree with Clovis that you could never go wrong using scripture as a guide for your life--but, like Clovis said, use it along with the Body of Christ to discern and interpret its meaning and relevance.

I think anything that has been touched by man is subject to error--the Bible included. I think God inspired the Bible--and it does contain the words of God, but it also contains the word of man. Therefore, God send us the Holy Spirit to help discern the difference.

My understanding is that God is all-loving and all-forgiving. Jesus never condemned. He forgave. His only pet peeve seemed to be hypocrisy and abuse of God's law and love.

I knew someone who I believe abused God's law. He was a retired Episcopalian priest. At first, he seemed compassionate and wise. As I got to know him as a close friend, I realized he was almost a psychopath. He had strong pedophilic tendencies. He had convinced himself that sexual love, even with children, was real love. He once suggested to me that if parents taught their children sexual love, it would be a beautiful, Godly thing. He was truly a wolf in sheep's clothing. He had so twisted his own moral values to accept any sin if it pleased him sexually and emotionally that he had truly lost himself. He was absolutely corrupt to the point that he could no longer see truth. He was dangerous to his step daughter, the boys he had contact with (he also had homosexual desires along with heterosexual desires), and anyone who put their trust in him. He began frequenting adult book store bathrooms, rest stops, etc. and having sex with anyone and everyone possible. However, his greatest fascination was with young boys. I broke off our friendship when I realized the depth of his problem. I couldn't help him, and he could only harm me.

There is a scary phenomenon developing in the world today where sin is no longer being recognized. I say this with a heavy heart, because I know it might offend some. (Ripley, I have no intention of bashing homosexuals or lesbians with this comment. I'm talking about sin in general.)

I have to reiterate that judging people is NOT what faith is about. It's not what my God asks of me. He wants me to love everyone, no matter what their condition. Only God can truly judge a person's heart.

However, I think there is evil out there that is masking itself in the world as truth. It is slowly eating away at our culture, our lives, our spirit. That's why we have to rely on the spirit, more than ever, to guide us.

Not trying to do anything but understand. I did mention that 'I might be assuming but I perhaps wonder..' so all my shoring up on what I believe is definitely not based on that.



Maybe that is what you wish to believe but I have repeatedly told others they are right to follow their own path even if I disagree with it. The only time I bring in the word wrong is when someone claims this is what the Bible says when it clearly does not once looked into. Not the same thing as your accusation. I assume nothing about their relationship with God but I know the Bible says that those who do not follow the Word do not follow Christ who is the Word made flesh and those without the Spirit are none of His. This is my view because it is reflected from the Word itself but I do not use it as a weapon to tell others they are wrong.

You should realize I never try to disprove other people's beliefs as your view attempts to disprove the Bible and my beliefs. My attempts to strive for biblical purity should not be confused with telling other people they are wrong for even if they reject the Bible or use certain pieces while ignoring others I always try to remember to state this is what the Bible states and it is fine to believe as you wish. Conistently and repeatedly if anyone's view attempts to prove others wrong it is only yours so please do not cast that charge on my views.



This has been covered before but the word for evil is ra' and means calamity in this case and not the evil that men do. Ra' is also used as 'sorrow' in other instances. It is not the same word as ra'a' as used in Levitucs 5:4 where one 'swears pronouncing with his lips to do evil'. It is also not the same as the word beliya'al as used in Psalms 41:8 which is usually translated as wicked. God is not wicked.

When someone usually offers an opinion it usually reflects them more than it does whatever they are referring to. I am no exception to that rule. When people use certain 'words' now and there to simply disprove God or the Bible it does not reflect either but only their wishes to disprove what they do not believe in.



..in your view which is not a fact.

Your post was so very true. The last part though deserves to be repeated. We should not condemn or judge others. If our only mission in life is to disprove others and show them how they are wrong what a sad state of affairs our lives would be. As far as love there is a difference between agape, philia, and eros. The last one, eros, love of a sexual nature, is truly not the type of love that God wants us to have for one another as your example showed.

On another note altogether and not directed at you HowdyDoo at all but one thing all of us, Christians and others, should understand is that not all homosexuals thoughts revolve around sexual thoughts. They truly want love within another just as much as the next guy or gal. Someone in my family whom I love very much told me this and it makes perfect sense. Usually when people think that all homosexuality is about sex their opinion reflects and offers insight only to their own mindset and not into homosexuality at all. Also to see homosexuals as outside of God's plan is also folly. They may not view it as a sin but for those who do should never forget we are all sinners, everyone, and no matter what we do there will always be some sin which we will be more partial to or not for the rest of our lives.

Just as much as Christianity needs to come to terms with other belief systems it also needs to come to terms with other lifestyles even if they consider them all sinful. I am not advocating we need more ministers who do not share our belief sets or who openly sin without any will to stop but that we should not judge or condemn others. In no way should that be taken as an attack on anyone for who we select to follow as leaders should not reflect who we choose to consider as brothers and sisters or who we should extend our love to outside in the open world.

I think we're on the same page.

We all are sinners--no one is exempt. We are all loved by God--and no one is exempt.

Amen!

No more needs to be said to the last posts of what you both have said....