So, out of curiosity -- did you write this a year and a half ago as Enigmni Freak here and cross-post it here or is it a little uncited cut-and-paste magic?

--Jaylemurph

No, it is something more. It is a device or a marker to serve as a catalyst for those who think. To awaken what Hegel tried to do and many others. Manly P. Hall tried and David Bohm tried also. Paul Davies has also tried to open our minds as did Einstein. Who knows what can serve as a catalyst to amplified thought? What have you done for us lately?

Cheers,

Orion

Hunh. One would think, as a professor, you'd have some convictions against plagiarism. Apparently not.

--Jaylemurph

Well I am skeptical that radiocarbon dating is accurate. Not that it would make a big difference for the world today if it was more accurate or way off the mark, it would make little difference, I see no conspiracy behind it, but no one has went back to verify the dating methods we use are accurate and I am not expecting anyone to possibly go back anytime soon...until then the guess we make is as good as any.

+ plagiarism is bad mmkay if that is what occurred on this thread

And how would the value of C14-Dating change if i would know any archeologist?

C14 is a joke. It only works back 35.000 years - and then its out of value.
And they know it all depends on the Suns radiation-impact it does on the earths surface.(Or was it space-radiation? i forgot)
And they also know that if the atmosphere was not allways as thin as today then they are busted.
And it was not allways as thin as today, it was much denser, and they know this.
Correct me if i am technically wrong.
Let me guess, most of archelologist are halfbacked egomaniacs, or blackmailed to shut up, or afraid to lose thei credibility - ok, there are a few Dr. Jacksons,
but these few with a working mind all work for the black projects so you never get to hear their findings

But aren't the Germans themselves likely to have Trojan ancestry? While many of the survivors of Troy probably remained within the Mediterranean basin, all it would have taken is one or two of them, or their descendants, moving northward and fathering or birthing children.

Refugees tend to be peripatetic, so I wouldn't be surprised if by 800 or 1000 AD there were native Chinese with Trojan ancestry.

The question I always had was why the crowned heads of Europe were so determined to prove themselves the descendants of the DEFEATED side of the Trojan War.

Hey OldTimeRadio,

Maybe they are planning to ask for retribution from the Greeks!

seax

yah they lost but the fight was over a woman. everyone from xerxes onward was on the trojans side.

Hi OldTimeRadio,



No, as the Germans as a people migrated into the country from Northern Germany, Denmark and Scandinavia during the same period the Trojan War was believed to have been fought, a few thousand miles to the South East.



It gave them a sense of history or longevity that they would not have otherwise.

cormac

What Cormac said is true, but in claiming Trojan heritage, they were also suggesting they were aligned with Roman power, since Aeneas' line founded Rome after Trot was destroyed.

--Jaylemurph

But how does that conflict with my suggestion that a few Trojan survivors, or at least their own descendants, would have eventually moved northward into German areas and bred?

Got you. Thanks.

But that's not what you asked.



As a people, the answer to that question would be no.

However, it is possible that there were a few survivors or descendants who moved into Germany at some point in time. Being from Anatolia, one would expect them to bring some vestige of their earlier lives with them. As far as is known, no such Anatolian influences exist, suggesting that even if some did migrate to Germany they had minimal impact on the natives.

cormac

could you possibly be a little more specific about what you would say you should find that you don't please? not asking you to be toooo specific if you don't want to but at least do you mean plain grey burnished slip ware with or without noobs? what else?

Reading my post again I think that's exactly what I asked.

I asked whether it was not possible that at least a few Trojan survivors, or their own descendants, eventually reached Germany and fathered or birthed children.

In much the same way I have a German ancestor named Spanier, and this indicates to me the likelihood that at some time in the distant past I had a Spanish ancestor.

Well, I think the problem is assuming that history as given to us in the literary work of the Iliad or the Aeneid -- or even the Bible -- is legitimate history. It isn't. So while it's /possible/ there were some legitimate Trojans who wondered up Germany way at the end of the historical conflict that could have inspired the Iliad, it's of a completely different order of historic magnitude as saying "some Bronze Age Anatolian-langauge-speaking peoples from what is now modern Turkey migrated into Germanic-speaking areas of continental Europe in the 2 millenium BCE."

--Jaylemurph

Yes, you did. My apologies. I've read so much of someone elses "interpretations" that I guess my mind went into shut-down mode temporarily.

Although there isn't any evidence for an exodus from Troy after it was destroyed, however it happened, it's possible that a few people could have left Turkey for Germany. Big question here is why would they. There are no similarities in language, so they wouldn't understand anyone. A trip that long might take several generations, so you really couldn't call them Trojans anymore. Even if they did take the journey and married and had children, there's no basis for anyone claiming to be descended from them a few thousand years later. Simply put, no records, no way to know.

cormac

Ok , about the Ancient Chinese bowing down and respecting their emperor. It actually depends on what happens at that time . If you have never heard of the Mandate of heaven , then now I shall tell you . According to the beliefs of the ancient chinese, when a certain emperor takes the throne or overthrows the current emperor , people will look out for signs. Such as when 1 emperor takes the throne and suddenly floods and many natural disasters happen , the people will take it as a sign to overthrow the emperor as heaven has not chosen him . But if all is well and the country prospers and natural disasters are few and not severe , the people will respect their emperor as they believe that he is the one chosen by heaven

Anatolian or Mycenaean Greek forms of pottery, weaponry, clothing. Trojans are believed to have spoken the Luwian language, so there should be some evidence for that. The Illiad mentions horses, so one should expect some indication of local Anatolian horses being brought into the area. Their religious beliefs, whether of a Greek or Hittite persuasion would not be the same as the Germanic peoples, should be at least some evidence for that.

This would be if they migrated in significant quantities to have at least a moderate impact on the Germans.

cormac

sorry brothers. at the end of the trojan war there is infact a mass exodus.

handmade grey ware. gaud even korf n kolbe didn't disagree on that. by the way you should ask kolbe what he thinks now.

one luwian seal....
grey burnished was minyan which was helladic which was greek black neo which was graphite which was vienna. wheel turned 5500bc. what went where?
horses where? where is the best darn ancient horse art from.
not greek nor hittite. they were both enemies of troy but still family from waaaay back right?... j2?

Got a link to back that up, or am I supposed to take your word for it.

cormac

its your brain thats suffering not mine.

Only from trying to decipher the mess you write. Looks like gibberish.

Should I assume English is not your native tongue?

cormac

oo from the history buff that got whacked for never having heard of dolni vestonice. in public.

Funny, I don't remember getting whacked. Many people have never heard of Dolni Vestonice. So what. Can I assume by your tone that you know about every find ever made?

cormac

i was there. i saw it. someone even got their post pulled [not me] that was truly unkind but thats what you get for trying to show up someone as you were.

where did dolni fit in that list? so you didn't know the first thing then. same applies here. i wasn't steering you wrong then and i am not now. do you see me trying to sell anything? this could be fun. things don't happen like this often. i know that is the problem. would i believe it if i were not me. never. dah. but what does it cost to see if maybe there is a little fun here?

i know you want answers. you post the same question all the time.

I have no idea what you're on about. I didn't have anyone's post pulled, as a matter of fact, I don't even know what was said. Could you possibly be any more cryptic?

cormac

shemtov...the problem is that what you are trying to state isnt quite legible to us. if you are more articulate in stating what you want to state, in a form, which everyone can understand, it would be easy.

cheers!

The problem with Trojan ancestry is that for a good while most considered Troy itself a legend and not historical. There are no clues whatsoever to what happened to the surviving Trojans but most likely they did go somewhere...but where? Also to think of the ancient world consisting of tribes who remained pure and had only one place of origin rather than see different peoples mixing their identities even if they were assimilated into a larger tribe who did have a definite source of origin...in the end nothing is clear and cut. It is most likely if Trojans did make an exodus after the war they went westward and northward instead of into more heavily populated and established regions where they would not be welcome in the south and east. We might never know. What we do know is that later it was the Germanics, Celtics, and Thracians who ruled the regions in question. There were also Iberians, Basques, and Etruscans who are considered to be unrelated to any other people, due to their language being isolates, but are in place in their regions before the arrival of the Germanics, Celtics, and Thracians.

Also the question as to why many people are identified with the side that lost in the Trojan war might have more to do with Greek sentiment. It is the Greeks who for the most made an industry of identifying mythical sources for many places and peoples. In the case of Rome for example where a rivalry developed between Rome and Greece when Rome began to rise it became convenient to attribute Roman origins to their enemies in this case the Trojans.

This connection was easy to make though because it was the Romans themselves who adopted Aeneas as part of their beliefs and even later the Romans continued to strongly identify with this history. Julius Caesar among others traced his family tree to Aeneas then to Venus herself. Troy fell circa 1184 BCE and Rome was founded, in Etruscan territory, in 753 BCE. This is why modern historians find it difficult to substantiate such claims as Trojan origins to Rome.

And you guys should quit making drama in such a good thread. There is no need really to start dissing someone by claiming their post looks likes gibberish and they must not speak English as a first language, while it is true, if you really cannot understand someone it is better to just ignore them than have to point that out as if it somehow offers more credibility to your view. Even if your view is more widely accepted even among academia insulting another when discussing something does not emphasize your claim but only detracts from your own person.

considering most of these beliefs that these ''sons of gods'' were from are now outdated its likely even if they showed us some divine power then most of the world wouldnt believe it and hed be sectioned off to some insane asylum

Gladly, but don't forget it was at your own suggestion.

C14 dating is useful to about 50,000 years (plus a little more.)

The atmosphere hasn't changed radically in that time. How do we know? We have collected atmospheric samples much, much older than this from ice cores, that's how.

C14 is an extremely reliable method over the stated time period, with several well-known exceptions including such things as samples that may have absorbed older carbon while laying in situ such as samples from underwater sites containing a lot of calcium carbonate (remains of ancient sea shells - such as chalk - for example.)

C14 dating has been checked, rechecked and calibrated using denrochronological dating techniques (tree rings) as well as other types of radiological dating.

C14 matches well with known dates from the ancient past.

C14 dating always comes with a known and given margin of error and falls within that margin more than 99% of the time.


What a load of bull.

You slander an entire group of people in order to support your ridiculously puerile opinion.

Harte

the person i was addressing [and forgive me for sometimes i forget that other people include themselves] thinks themselves to be quite the history tech with big opinions on highly technical and marketed history. what i say should be easily understandable and maybe even easy to refute just for the fun of it if they are even a part of what they think they are. if anyone else asks me what i mean i am only too happy to do whatever but it will often involve a little heavier reading than wiki cause i don't agree will telling people that pannonia is on the sea of azov.

honestly it did seem like i was being ignored mostly so i didn't think i was broadly offensive.

cormac i never said you had anything pulled did i. don't you remember he said hahahah then your little fanny friend chipped in and said to weave poor cormi alone and then the big bad mod came in and put the big bad nasty sign on it.... all in all a poor showing

i admired your openmindedness and told you so. arg.

I like your statement. It is refreshing honest.

But you are lost in romantic illusions on how things should be.
If you really believe, honestly, believe in your candy-eye-opinions, why are you posting in this forum?
C14-buyers dont have a interresting reality. Its all about whats in the historybooks.
And these books do explain nothing of what can be found on, under and above the surface of earth.


Explain me baalbeck...1000tons monolith....the gigantic foundation-stones of the Jupiter-temple, etc etc.
Those primitive native people had ropes and woodbars and coppertools and 41 different beer-types -
and they had offcurse brilliant ideas how to bridge 5000 years lack technology???
You know how this sounds to me?
I use your words.
A "ridiculously puerile opinion"



The quantity of outrageous questions people have,
are not matched by the ludicrous quality of answers given by the establishment.
If this situation can not seen,
then any discussion is useless.

C14's job is to misguide the cincere archeologist into boredomland, and to concieve true history.

Use your search function Baalbeck has already been discussed, as to the pictures you present it is of a gigantic monolith so large that it could not be moved so it was abandoned on the quarry. Also history explains past events not what is above or below the earth, perhaps you are mistaking Archaeology or Geology. As for C-14 it is seen as quite a reliable tool and untill another more efficient system is devised then it will still be used, as for your view on history books...why ? do you have all the answers ? i would put my faith in a history books for information over just about any other source any day (that is if its from a reliable author.)

Easily done - Baalbek was a Roman construction, through and through.

Harte

Waitwaitwaitwait.

You're suggesting that the Romans built big, complex things? I have never seen any evidence of that, anywhere. You clearly refuse to see the evidence for ancient technology UNDER YOUR VERY NOSE!

--Jaylereformedmurph