Well, dragon or not, divinity was a main criterion to become a leader those days. What I'm interested in is now, because I don't think anyone would let a dragon be a ruler, unless its Godzilla.

apparently you have a reading problem.

Now try to read the OP I quoted, and see who mentioned 'dragon' first. I have never 'hijacked' a thread. Dragons pop up everywhere because they are such a significant part of mankind's earliest beliefs. You just don't understand this. Even when you post an article about a Maori reptilian monster that has most of the attributes of "intelligent dragon deities" around the world, you can't see this. Everyone else seems to.

Why are you even on this thread if you have nothing to contribute but slandering the real contributors?

In ancient times an intelligent flying lizard could be considered a god, becasue it could convince people it could bring rain (though in reality, probably just knew when rain was coming but made good use of this knowledge).

Obviously, mankind today is too sophisticated to take a creature as a god simply for being big and scary and able to predict the weather. Now we have satellites that do that, and zoos to lock up unusual animals, or museums to display their stuffed bodies and bones.

Now if the intelligent flying lizard of our ancestors, happened to land on the white house lawn in a flying saucer, it might be worshipped , or at least greatly respected and feared for it would probably have the tehnology to wipe us out with impunity, though now it would no longer be considered a deity, but rather a highly advanced alien life form.

If not mankind's fertile imagination, maybe that is what the old dragon gods really were.

You drag them in kicking and screaming into every thread you deign to visit and then spew venom at anyone who dares suggest dragons are as mythical as fairies and unicorns?

--Jaylemurph


edit: grammar

The point of the prominance of the dragons in mythology, is that the dragon symbol, and yes, it is a symbol, was made into the sigal of the most powerful human being. The cultures that had come out of the period with huge reptilian beasts had no other meter to describe the power of that human being. Today it is also a symbol of that humans bloodline, along with the lion symbol, his son.

It is the differerantation between the old/new. Prophecy tells of the time when the old and new become one again, one person{or the one male in prophecy} he who is real, reborn. That the beasts stole those symbols, and distorted them, is also a part of what is going to be corrected. The destruction of religions, and the beasts they come from, those outside the people. Anyway, that is the truth, bye now.

Its just interesting how the Japanese and the Chinese revere the dragons, like a sentient species whom they are friends with. I wish I had a dragon as a friend. Hey DC, can you fly?

I guess you can't read very well either. The "dragons were dragged in" by the Original Poster, and that WASN'T me.

And of course you cannot compare dragons with fairies and unicorns. Virtually every human culture acknowledged dragons as real creatures and even deities. The unicorn was simply a Viking scam to sell narwhale horns to gullible europeans.

Dragons are revered just as much in Western Culture, the problem is just that Christians have forgotten that Yahweh was originally the canannite storm dragon Yaw. You'd think they'd figure it out, considering Yahweh is described in the Bible with wings, spewing fire from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils, demanded lambs, calves, liqour and first born sons, and was given an offering of 32 captured enemy virgins after a big victory. Other western Storm controlling Gods like Zeus and Odin were probably dragons in the beginning as well, though it is human nature to gradually humanize their gods.

But let me reveal a secret as to why there is this great misconception about 'good' chinese dragons and 'bad' western dragons you will not learn from any other source. Western dragons, as the bible and many other stories confirm, often asked for human offerings, which regretably, are a favorite dragon delicacy (considering they have no claws, hooves , antlers, horns, or fur). But the "good" chinese dragons never had to demand such gruesome fare (thus becoming more loved than their western cousins), becasue since ancient times, hundreds of thousands of Chinese female babies annually, perhaps over a million even, were thown out on trash dumps for dragons to scavenge, as even European missionaries noted with horror in the 19th century. Now you know.

And yes, sure I fly. I have traveled the wide world quite extensively and generally not by foot. I even 'crashed' once in Iraq.

Can you post the reference passages that state in the OT that god breathed fire and had wings?

Are you saying that the Chinese dragons were scavangers and ate dead babies? That hardly fits with them being angelic natured creatures.

So, DC are you telling us the only proper form of worship is what was practiced three, four or five thousand years ago and involves human sacrifice??

Oh, and I haven't read the entire other thread on Dragon Religion, but is there a title for your Book?

Yahweh spews fire and snorts smoke in both II Samuel and Psalms. His wings are mentioned four times in Psalms. He is given 32 virgins in Numbers and claims the first born male from the womb of every woman and female animal were to be given to him in exodus (though later it is possible to buy your son back from him, and the prices are explained in Deuteronomy.)

Chinese dragons are carnivores exactly like western ones. It is easy for them to behave "angelically" if they get all the humans they can eat without having to ask for them like western dragons had to. The pigs and dogs would eat the dead babies if the dragons didn't.

Worshipping the dragons today is rather pointless. They can do nothing for us anymore. We have satellites now to predict the weather, and we already know how to domesticate animals and grow crops. And there are no dangerous animals for them to destroy.

They were never real gods, just surrogates modified from lesser archosaurs to watch after humans in our formative years for the true Creator, who had little time for this one flyspec of a planet in a vast univers of many other worlds. Now these 'gods' can only hide from us, thugh every once in a while we catch fleeting glimpses of them and call them "nessies" and sea serpents..

Oh, DieChecker, don't encourage him.

You mark my words, this will descend into nothing more than DC screaming and ranting that everyone who doesn't believe dragons were literally crawling over the hedgerows is an imbecile without the first hint of intelligence, that you can't possibly be Christian or Jewish without literally believing god is a magic flying lizard and that he himself is the first person ever to correctly understand our dragon-y past. The thread will descend into him throwing out personal insults which will either end in a mod locking the thread or with him throwing a rather lavish hissy-fit and poncing off.

--Jaylemurph

Ive seen some supposed dragon pictures on the net, the one that was seen in over Tibet. It was a giant snake like thing, very huge and white scales.

I think the Draconic religions are much more than what we see it, because its the only civilization that had that much power and control over their people on a massive scale than anything else.

Grow up Jay. The people who throw "hissy fits" and cause threads to close are those who can't stand it when I prove they are wrong. And I will remind you again that the original poster brought up the 'dragons as gods' question, and I have responded to it. Please have the courtesy to stay on topic and trying to derail the thread.

You are right, and althoughtChina's dragon dieties are certainly the best known, it is an undeniable fact serpent-dragon deities were common all over the world, including the origins of Judasim as many scholars have noted. This seems to bother practicing Christians, but it is better to bring the facts to light, and try to explain them logically, rather than continually sweep the truth under the rug. Popes cannot burn archaeologists at the stake for heresay anymore, nor can Jews stone them for blasphemy.

Didn't the angels come down and breed with mortal man, and sire giant offspring? Who lauded over mankind, and this being one of the reasons the Flood came?

those pics from tibet were aerial photos of glaciers.

I've never thought of it in this way before.

Would the Nephilim then be Half-Dragons?

If they were killed in Noah's Flood then I guess they could not fly.

Nah, they were killed because they could'nt flap their wings for 40 days and nights.

Interesting thread... You'll worship the anti-christ when he comes. Unless you're an intelligent being. So 99.99999999999999999% of us are screwed.

The creatures called "Watchers" and "Sons of God" appear to be the dragons. I believe the Nephilim legends were created to explain their distant memories of the Neanderthals who were "different" from them and they neeedd a reason to explain why.

And the great flood of Noah could not have covered the whole world, and it was a dragon who warned the original Noah as well. And there were many, many dragon sightins after the "flood", and they seem to be at home in the water as well as the air.

I hav to agree with Grem about thje glacier, though there are many other dragons sightings in the orient that seem authentic.

Quote from wereallsuckers: "I personally think most of the ancient gods, particularly Greek ones were based on real people who became deities, it's not uncommon for this to happen, worship of a person to the level of a God. In ancient times Zeus, Hades and Poseidon may have been leaders of a people who conquered the land off a race that was more robust and could be taken as giants, titans, who worshipped the Earth Gods, but when the people of Zeus took control of the land they owned it then and split it up between them, as the known Earth as this time would have been relatively small the areas of sea wouldn't have been worldwide, it could have been the area of the Black Sea, Poseidon pops up in the Black Sea alot. That sort of thing, over time, the tales and stories of these heroic leaders and many Greek heros had the Gods bloodline, were told and used as explanations for the events of the times, which became myths told but myths that actually were events, Plato tells us of one, of Phaethon. Immortaility was gained through poets like Homer. Poets, priest like sages and ancient thinkers were responsible for nearly all God renditions. Before that there were mostly Earth Goddesses who were named natural phenomenom that they thanked and hoped came to their rescue at crop time.
Many kings lines of today probably stem from old Gods, who imo were not actually godlike entities but real people who attained God like status appropriate for the ancient times."


I'm pretty sure all these gods were just planets. The Greeks likened to the the planets as gods. Zeus being Saturn etc. etc. Phaethon which means "blazing star" was Venus before it became a planet. This was while it was still a comet. Or rather a celestial body roaming. If you read Plato and other works before they describe more of what the people witnessed in the sky and heavens.

Dragons: In one of the Indian Vedas it was mentioned that a dragon of war that spewed fire was made of metal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak

All hale Obama!

Hi, I have been reading so much about myths and I'm still at a loss as to how all these elaborate stories got so human and what means what but that was my opinion based on stories of Heracles mostly. With Phaethon I see exactly what you mean and I do think Phaethon was an occurance in the sky, so would have to agree with you. I have heard that about Venus and it does rotate the other way which points to a disturbance or difference of it's orbit over time, a comet caught up in the orbit like you say. I'm not sure when astronomers say that event would have occurred. There IS so much reference to the Gods names and planets and even their characteristics based on this, now that I think more about it, it is something I will check out further, thanks for that enlightening post.

Wiki - Greek Mythology
"Some scholars believe that behind Heracles' complicated mythology there was probably a real man, perhaps a chieftain-vassal of the kingdom of Argos. Some scholars suggest the story of Heracles is an allegory for the sun's yearly passage through the twelve constellations of the zodiac"

Seems it is even confusing for the scholars! I think the later hero Gods may have developed from real people.
BUT having had more of a think about it and a good reread of Wiki, I would be inclined to think they were based on not only planets but natural phenomena and the more I read the more it seems that this explanation is the most likely.
"They used myth to explain natural phenomena, cultural variations, traditional enmities and friendships."
This all fell into place for me now, I'm glad you rejogged me on that because I have spent all day researching whether Troy is even Troy and whether the Trojan War took place. The thing that was puzzling me is that Calchas is engraved on an Etruscan plate dated 5th century BC, now Calchas was suppose to be the one who prophecised the Greeks would win the war after 9 years. How could he be around in 1200BC when the Trojan War is supposed to have gone down? (Not that Calchas was a God).

Cerberusxp,

As much as I appreciate your providing a link, I don't see any info regarding this metal dragon at the link you provided.

Do you have any information regarding this?

Most of the Vedic texts that have been translated can be found at Sacred-Texts.com.

Is this Vedic text concerning the metallic dragon to be found there?

I've never heard of it, but I'll admit that there are hundreds of thousands of pages of translated vedas and I've not been through more than a few hundred pages myself.

Any help?

Harte

Some believe this due to various biblical scriptures and also the Book of Enoch. There are also other theories such as Zacharia Sitchen's and even New Agers, some not all, believe that aliens have helped us once and will return soon to do so again.




If the Beast of Revelation appears and people follow it it will have nothing to do with intelligence. Intelligent people will follow it.




Actually we have good reason to believe that this type of association came after the gods and goddesses were already developed and not the reason why they were developed. Surely though many of the attributes that were added on after the creation of the gods themselves were added through this celestial association and without such association the gods might not have some of the attributed they do have.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology

While cosmology does not create gods it makes sense that those wishing to explain the origins of the universe will revert to explaining it by using their gods as the creators. It is also something of an interaction because the gods according to some were developed by man anthropomorphizing natural phenomena. So wind was seen as a god then in turn when explaining how the wind came to be we used the wind god in some witty story as an example.

In the book "Behind the Crystal Ball: Magic, Science, and the Occult from Antiquity through the New Age" by Anthony Aveni he writes this about Aristotle, who used 'a form of logic to account for everything that happened in this highly ordered world. Motion, for example, was caused by the tendency of all objects to acquire a state of rest, to go to their natural place: earth to earth, water to water and so on. This explains why why a stone once removed from its earthly abode falls downward through the air to get back to earth. It rains because water displaced to the air above it seeks to return to its natural place...' (p 20) and then Aveni goes on to mention Greek astrologers:



Now we can clearly see how the deities, especially the sky gods, came to be closely aligned to the celestial but this does not explain how the concept of divinity came to be construed in the first place. Clearly the earliest humans were not concerned with sitting idly by and watching the stars, such a pastime or endeavor is only possible after mankind had conquered the natural world around them, from the onset it was a struggle of man vs nature, and in this struggle, hunting, seeking shelter, and losing loved ones in a dangerous world allowed the first forms of religion develop. The wiki article on the development of religion touches on this briefly.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_religion

Once society became specialized and more settled then astrology, cosmology, and reanalyzation of the divinity was able to occur. One of the most important roles of astrologers though was to solely explain how the cosmos affect either the national interests, the original Chaldean model, and the later the personal interests of the people, the Greek innovation, and Aveni also comments on this:



And we can see from history that urban civilization began in Mesopotamia and that is where man was able for the first time to relax, kick back, look up to the stars and wonder, making those connections to the earlier developed gods, maybe even developing new ones, but it was not until the Greeks where the star gods took on more personal attributes. The business of religion when it came to these specialized gods was no longer the monopoly of the state but was so an individual could pick which gods or goddesses they wished to follow believing they had influence on their personal lives.

Now back to the Greeks and the development of the star gods. The first stories that we have where the star gods have personalities is with the Greeks and this is some time after the development of the pantheon of gods, which themselves are a development of empire building where as one city ruled another and another, each of those cities gods became merged in one pantheon. Another book in my collection entitled "Star Myths - Of The Greeks and Romans: A Sourcebook" by Theony Condos where she offers the translated works originally attributed to Eratosthenes, Catasterismi aka "The Constellations", and Hyginus' Poeticon Astronomicon aka "Poetic Astronomy", which have entries regarding several constellations and planets, then she adds her own commentary. This is what she has to say in the introduction of this book regarding the development of celestial mythology.



Condos goes on to basically to explore Hesiod's works but also concluded that 'modern scholars have been for the most part unable to detect any traced of constellation myths in the extant works of Hesiod, or to determine whether any such myths were included in the lost work entitled Astronomia, which is attributed to Hessiod.' (p 23)

We have every reason therefore to believe that the study or anthropomorphizing of the stars were not the reason why the gods and goddesses of mythology came to be. When they were anthromorphized though that added a powerful dimension I feel was readily accepted by the ancients and still lives on today even in phrases such as 'if I am lying may God strike me dead' which originally was an allusion to Zeus who wielded lightning bolts and also interestingly enough was who people swore on to in the courts of that era.

Now it is highly theoretical and cannot be proven by scholastic efforts that the archetype of the gods of mythology were once living, walking beings. But many of us suspect that is the case. I hope this helps and it did take a bit of time to transcribe the quotes above from those two books but if they can be of use to offer knowledge to others at least they will not just be sitting on my bookshelf. If interested in the knowledge of the ancients though I highly recommend the book "Star Myths".

Further a final quote from wiki:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catasterismi

As you can see by my previous post I agree with you on many points and it is highly enjoyable to know another is as interested as me in these concepts. I thought I would mention, since you mentioned Troy, that I would offer the thought that the ancients definitely believed in Troy, Eratosthenes was also the chief librarian of the Library of Alexandria. Oh how I wish I could have visited. It is said that in Egypt during that era that people coming into the country or leaving if stopped at the border were searched for contraband, books, and if someone had a book, they took the original copy and gave them the option of either waiting for a scribe to copy it in exchange or they could just surrender it and go on their way, the books were then sent to the Library in Alexandria.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Etruria, Rome, and other nations also claimed they were started by Trojan refugees. I am sure you have read the wiki already regarding the archaeological findings that attempt to corroborate the Troy of Legend, Homeric Troy, with the archaeological findings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy#Homeric_Troy

Not sure how historical Calchas is. I just looked into it and it seems more an invention of the Iliad and playwrights since but that Etruscan bronze where he is depicted practicing haruspicy is quite excting. Here is a link of other Etruscan artifacts including that one.

http://www.maravot.com/Translation_ShortScripts_c.html

Thanks for that reply and your previous post was really great to read. You certainly checked it out and made some sense of it.

It is really hard to determine if the people of the Trojan War or any of the Greek gods or hero Gods such as Heracles were actual, real people.
If one believes the Trojan War happened and the stories of Homer et al. are true accounts and a real Troy existed that was fought at for 10 years what do we make of the heroes such as Achilles who have immortal mothers or are fathered by Zeus? Achilles was probably a real soldier endowed with the traits given in the poems at a later date? It seems as time went on the parts were added like Achilles heel (when early paintings show him being speared in the chest) creating the classic myths of the vulnerability of Achilles heel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles

The Etruscans are proving really interesting to me. Their culture started around 750BC and already Greek art is firmly entrenched by 700BC with so much art painted on the Trojan War found there, maybe because they were in it and the Greeks came from them actually instead of the Greeks merging there, the war was an Etruscan War and the Greeks were the ones who took up the culture, not the other way around. Homer could have been recording an Etruscan war. That would account for why Calchas was indeed in it and it was not as early as 1200B. Notice how Calchas has wings, like a divine being, a priest/God. Calchas gave the prophecies, just like a God. There is even a bronze liver replica been found divided into parts that the seer read, thought to be a learning tool. This practice was common also with the Oracles, the God Apollo is an Etruscan God and they had these Gods very early on, long before Greeks took them up due to embellished stories by Homer and the like. It seems to me the Greeks, or some archaic proto-Greek people came from and bought the Etruscan Gods and the Trojan War with them. This would funny enough fit in with what I found as a description of them in a book from the library. Another book also talks and has pictures of the ruins in Malta dates 3000BC with huge Mother Goddess structures and so belonging to a very religious Earth goddess culture. I am looking for an ancient religious earth god/man god interaction that would account for the Cosmic War or Clash of the Titans. The area of Malta excavated and found the contain huge religious chambers and carved rock rooms and having cart tracks into the sea is incredible too and I'm sure links in some way here too. Possible connections to the early Oracle's of Greece and Etruscia, the Cumae's is interesting too.

Plato notes how the story he will tell is before the Gods that Solon knows, so pre the time Greeks took up the Gods they had. The time around 800BC would fit this and also the time when the Etruscan civilisation started to blossom and then the Greek influence and Trojan War paintings around 700-500BC, the same time Homer was composing stories about it. Calypso's island from the Odyssey and all the places in the 'west', islands of Hesperides etc would correspond to them being in Italy west of Greece. This story I'm sure somehow all fits in with Plato and his tale of Atlantis, below are some of my findings drawing parallels to Plato's Atlanteans and Athenians.
"If the Etruscans were immigrants from another land their should be people at home still speaking the same dialect, unless the population had died and their original civilization was extinguished.
From 700BC they enjoyed prosperity. Their land was fruitful and rich in minerals, tin, copper and iron. Their metal smithing techniques in jewellery making were superior to anyone of the ancient world. The Etruscans were also aggressive mariners and traders. They expanded their trade through Southern Europe and North Africa. Greek writers of the 6th and 7th century write of ‘piratical Tyrrhenians’.
Now let’s take special note of this:
The Etruscan states were first governed by priest-kings and later by magistrates elected by the ruling class. The only regular occasion on which the heads of states met was the annual festival of the god Volyumna. Sometimes the religious occasion served a political purpose; it gave the representatives the chance to discuss matters of general concern and settle any differences between them. The festival was apparently held in some secret grove in the area around Volsinii (now Bolsens). This sounds a lot like Plato’s description of the kings meeting!
The Tyrrhenians possess their women in common
They exercise along with men, sit down at the table and drink wine with them
They bring up all together those children that are born to them, heedless of who the father may be.
These last few points are part of the requirements 'Socrates' thinks is an ideal society.

Anyway, it's all very interesting imo and I'll leave it at that for now. I have a thread called Is Troy Troy? since my research in these areas has led me to question it and it's possible existance in Etruscia, I sort of derailed it towards England but the general thread idea came from my thoughts here basically.

Exactly. Christian teaching is that Jesus is going to return with a SHOUT, the blast of trumpets, and surrounded by myriads of angels.

As the old hillbilly preacher phrased it: "Man, this sucker's gonna be LOUD!"

I remember one pretend-Christ who 10 or 15 years ago announced that he was very soon to appear on a world-wide radio and television hoop-up where he'd reveal his Messiahship to all mankind.

But he cancelled plans a few weeks later, confessing that his pronouncement of his divinity had to be postponed "for technical reasons."

Yeah, you bet.

There have been claims that the British Royal Family, along with other European royal families, are the descendants of the ancient Trojans, who themselves claimed to be the descendants of the Gods.

If this is true, by this time we are all the descendants of the gods!

I quite agree -- but it's worth pointing out those claims were made centuries ago, and are almost laughable to look at now. And I'm not aware of any British royal literally claiming to be descended from Trojans in 300 years.

--Jaylemurph

you are talking cold turkey but there must have been a wink wink knudge knudge or secret handshake phase

You forgot Hong Kong Foohy

There are two main explanations of what happened to the descendants of Gods. Either they had destroyed one another in a war or they are forbidden to any more directly interfere into our development.

I dunno. The "they never existed" one is also a pretty popular one.

--Jaylemurph

Either that or else such-and-so a Trojan or early Greek hero's perfectly mortal grandfather can legitimately be described as Zeus or Poseidon or Apollo. <g>

If such a Divine being appeared and truly was THE Divine Being, he would not allow you to "submit" to him. You may bow out of respect as the Chinese do when they meet each other on the street or salute or whatever, but the Divine Being supposedly considers itself equal to each of us and would bow or salute in return.

The contradictions about God boggle the mind. Here is the one little line that depicts God: God is Love.

God is not hate, or cruelty, or murder or loving one more than the other, or promising to kill off tribes in a land so you, his favorite can have the land. There are no favorites in God's view. People that believe in the God that led Moses out of Egypt, are already worshipping the antiChrist. God the creator does not un-create. One of the supposed 10 commandments was Thou Shalt Not Kill - what? does that mean the author of that command, IS allowed to kill? Would God, the creator of all, command us to go kill his other creations?

Moses got suckered. This "god" dangled the carrot in front of Moses the whole time, telling him his line and his people would have the land of milk and honey, etc. etc., and Moses, being the egomaniac that he was, followed this carrot right up until the edge of the river when his mean, spiteful god said, nope, you pissed me off and you're not allowed to enter. This god that led Moses, was going to try to create the "perfect race" - kept the people out in the desert for 40 years so they couldn't screw up their DNA and they would have been an experiment for this creature. After 40 years in the desert, all the sickies would have died off, only the fittest would survive, and with what was left, it probably was going to try to recreate his ancestors tricks, and "breed with the humans" to create this "perfect race". The story reads a lot like Hitler's really. Maybe Hitler wasn't going to "breed" all the women personally, but this god that led Moses was supposedly very long lived and could turn a few tricks himself in what time he had left. No wonder Jesus had such a hard time trying to convince the people that God is Love and not this jealous, angry, spiteful, entity that they believed in from Moses' day.

If I had two children say, and some being that said it was "God" told me to kill one of them, I'd likely kill the "godthing" instead. Because that THING is not God. There is no way God would make such a choice either. He would not kill one of his offspring in favor of another, let alone whole tribes of them.
If you stood in the presence of God, you would feel so much love surrounding you, all inclinations of evil (attitude - pettiness, anger, hate etc.) would dissipate. You would weep with happiness.

God does not un-create - God does not kill. God does not have human attributes. God is Love. As in a noun. We love - as in a verb.
That's my opinion.

It would be rather hard for the British Royal family to be descendants of the Trojans as they ARE of German descent. Being that the older part is a branch of the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha line of the House of Wettin, while the newer part is a branch of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line of the House of Oldenburg.

cormac

That belief perhaps goes back to Frankish mythology regarding their belief that they descended from the Sicambri and Trojans. Modern historians reject such ancestry but it was popular among many peoples to give themselves elaborate ancestors. They believed their first king was Priam (link) which was the last king of Trojan before it was destroyed.

The Franks also traced their lineage through the Cimmerians (link). The British-Trojan myth falls onto the personage of one Brutus of Troy whose father or grandfather left Troy to found Rome, but Brutus left Rome to found Spain and Britain (link) and there are also links to Cimmeria again in the founding of Britain (link).

I also believe I read somewhere that the Franks while being Germanic at one time had foreign leaders who were non-Germanic. In other words refugees from another culture came to dominate the mass of them.

is it not easy to see how the story falls apart for modern historians? there was supposedly only 1 source and no corresponding roman activity plus no great city of sicambria. sicambria is founded on the edge of the pannonian marshes [on the black sea]. well thats a mistake. pannonia is not on the black sea. pannonia has lots of marshes however.

lets move over to pannonia and do we find a great mysterious city of the proper antiquity. yes.

do we find corresponding roman activity? look on the tabula peutingeriana in dacia and you find something curious. Tivisco on 2 roads and one a [full or double?] castra [link]. of course modern historians say they are the same one but do you think they would make that mistake?

mystery castra?

There still might be some truth to these claims. Somehow all these tribes might be related since they all speak Indo-European languages but as a disclaimer just because one comes to adopt an Indo-European language does not necessarily mean their ancestry goes all the way back to the first Indo-European peoples.

Descendants of the Gods what happened to them?

You are a descendant from a group of gods, as we all are.
Every woman on this planet can be geneticly traced back to 1 person, Ninhursag - "Mom".
On the males i donno..

There are many civilisations that have visited us and for them this planet is a genetic "backup", a pool aswell.
Many of these gods have been allways around. Some have left long ago and are on they way back.

Some powerplayers are on their way back - and some people on earth getting very nervous.
There is much trouble at the place where the ones created the 5th race (us) had their headquarters (Irak, Iran tis whole corner over there..)
Maybe its just a coincidence.
Maybe not.
http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NIP/PUB93/NSC/NSCFIG2.html

http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/nip/

And to really stir things up here, Yep there are roumors that there have been stargates found- Not these big O's but some kind of funny stuff.

We have 2 strands in our DNA. The guys who created 455000 years ago this humanity have 12 !
In order to understand, as a lay person, what this could probalby mean, i would watch again "O'Neill Teal'c Carter and Jackson".
Its not the story but the details, well the between the line stuff..

Another fraction of a "Systemlord", have made rest in the rings of Saturn. As far i am concerend he can stay there till hell freezes.
Oh well and there are Lions, Cats, Dragons, Humans, Orbs, Ascended entities- all stuff that makes a good story - its all there.
Did i ever mention this : Go watch SG-1


Let the flame beginn

Read about that, 12 stranded DNA and stuff. Well, the DNA is very much conductive, since it has a negative charge from the Phosphate backbone. I wonder if the DNA of certain religous masters or shamans have in any way a variation to ours.

In reply to the original question:-

We are all in wales!

A few things to point out here:



Incorrect. Mitochondrial DNA, passed from the female line, traces the female ancestor of all living humans to one woman living in Africa around 170,000 years ago.

Pre-dynastic Ancient Egypt started around 3200 BC, Sumeria around 3500 BC, ancient China around 2100 BC and the Indus Valley Civilizations around 3000 BC. Assuming their respective "gods" were around at the start of their civilizations, where were those "gods" for the prior 166,000+ years and why is there no mention or indication of them?

cormac

good question.

But one should doubt this "carbon thingy age measurment doudledidle".
170.000 can be 450.000.
Carbon-measurement depents on the transparency of radiation passing through the atmosphere - kind of , blablabla, well i think you know what i mean.
Basicly, no one of the archeologist would bet one of his legs that they know what they are talking about - honestly
Archeologist have a nice live, well payed, i doubt they have good se edit: blabalbalbla....................................................................
............, C14 is just Old-school:)

Pretty much every figurehead of modern day religions can be said to be a 'descendant of the ''Gods'' as all religions are plagarised from a previous one. If there were any possibility of tracing it all back to a single religion ( it cant ) then we would find that it still is born out of human imagination.

That's a good argument for fringe science. If someone doesn't understand the Carbon 14 dating methodology, then they can claim anything they want as the truth.





Obviously by these statements, you don't know many real archaeologists.

cormac

Secret of the Zebra...Catalyst to New Thought?

The Macro-view of Our Ancient Past.

Reflect deeply upon the Zebra's markings. Stripes circumscribe... then seem to explode in a uniform race around the animal's body only to culminate in a mental mystery. In that moment, one wonders about the reason for such optical impact and stark contrast of dark on light design...worthy of the finest computer-graphic rendering. Considering such "contemporary" design levels imbedded within the roots of so-called primal being, humanity's thoughts on everyday utility seem inadequate by comparison.

At what point did “Nature” (or some ancient genetic engineer) decide to genetically map the mathematical "fractallian" precision onto the body of such a beautiful specimen as the Zebra? Did it just manifest through evolution, or is there something more extraordinary to the puzzle? Some believe there must be a gestalt secret entwined within the matrix of biological information and processing of programmable DNA that is evident in the symbol of the stripes. Could it be a created messenger from an ancient geneticist's cause for aesthetic communication across the ages? To think of the complexity involved in such a theory, boggles the mind and upsets more than the old bromide of which came first...the "white horse" or the dark stripes. Something strange and different goes on when one delves deeply beyond the implied common science.

Could the knowledge of non-linear dynamics known by an ancient sentient civilization have genetically manufactured animals, including Zebras, if it had in its possession the basics of Fractal Geometry...could we? In the near future, research will produce a gargantuan amount of geologic and genetic data on the environment and the human genome. Couple this new information with the other leading-edge fields of Holography, Nanotechnology, Super Computers, Virtual Reality, Microbiology, and many more, then use the mathematical loom of Fractals to weave theory into reality, and we may find ourselves face-to-face with a checkered Zebra.

Fractua" is Latin for irregular, so Benoit Mandelbrot (an IBM Fellow) coined the name "fractals" (1980) for his new self-similar geometry, which can emulate the visual dictates of the world of chaos and the dimensional reality of natural forms. Fractal Geometry can define reality in a numerical fashion as it exists in the micro and macro realms...thus digitally mapping all being, via quantum manipulation and on-going change factors which are broadcast within the electromagnetic spectrum and throughout eternity.

The fact that some students of knowledge seem to miss when entranced by the symbol of the Mandelbrot Set's "island molecule," is that it looks exactly like a silhouetted sitting Buddha. To accidentally stumble upon such synchronism between a mathematical equation for reality and a philosophical icon for life (Buddha) is indeed awesome for those who seek the arcane wisdom of the gods. If the two were truly related, perhaps more investigation would bridge the gaps between ancient religion and modern science. Both are really looking for the same understanding of truthful existence in this Universe. However, the point remains...there are no schools of thought higher than Truth...though its secret is ever fleeting.

Issac Asimov reinforced the above by stating that the secrets of the Universe are enfolded in fractals and that the enigma of this constancy will remain forever unknown. Other scientists think otherwise and are in a heated race to frame a fractal-future in a new and fascinating understanding that could finally addresses the concepts of infinite creation through a quantum/holographic/fractal marriage.

Most of Nature still remains hidden from the vision of truth. We must in the coming decade stare to the depths of "what-if-thought" and realize life's deeper understandings.

There is so much more we need to consider...This thing is very big...in fact — ALWAYS!