Exodus 22:18, I'm sure we're familiar with this passage. It's most commonly depicted as "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", or something to that effect.

NIV: 18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live.
NASB: 18"You shall not allow a (A)sorceress to live.
TM: 18 "Don't let a sorceress live.
AB: 18You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
NLT: 18 “You must not allow a sorceress to live.
KJV: 18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
ESV: 18(A) "You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
CEV: 18Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
KJV (NEW) 18 “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
NCV: 18 "Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
21stCKJV: 18"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
ASV: 18 Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live.
YLT: 18`A witch thou dost not keep alive.
DT: 18-- Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
NLV: 18 "Do not allow a woman to live who does witchcraft.
HCSB: 18 "You must not allow a sorceress (A) to live.
NIRV 18 "Do not let a woman who does evil magic stay alive. Put her to death.
NIV(UK): 18 Do not allow a sorceress to live.
TNIV: 18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live.

Hm, only 4 out of 19 versions of the Bible mention that generic "witches" should be put to death. That's only, oh, 21% of the versions of the Bible published... Also, the King James version counts for three of those four, AND this version cannot be credited with being very accurate with this term, because the King James version was written in 1611, when witchcraft's name was already besmirched by the church. Many words and terms were switched with words that held the same basic connotation, such as the term "heaven" which, in the KJV of the Bible, is stated dozens of times, but does not refer to the place of heaven, but to the sky. This was done so that only King James and his high courtiers/priests would understand the meaning of the passages in the Bible in order to hold more control over the common people. (Nat. Geographic Documentary). Therefore, sensitive terms such as "witch" and "witchcraft" were already associated with "evil" and the "devil" before the KJV was even written, so it's no stretch of the imagination that King James would have switched out the term "sorcery" with "witchcraft" or "witch", because, at the time, those words were incredibly similar in meaning. Even Christians and non-Christians debate the accuracy of the KJV of the Bible :
http://www.ourlordjesus.com/Which%20Bible%20Translation.htm
http://www.ibs.org/niv/mct/14.php
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/kjvdebat.html
http://members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/accuracy.htm

Now, why is it such a dramatic shift in definition? Because the terms "witch" and "sorceress" mean two different things. Here are the definitions of the words from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

"sorcery


Main Entry:
sor·cery
Pronunciation:
\-rē\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English sorcerie, from Anglo-French, from sorcer sorcerer, from Medieval Latin sortiarius, from Latin sort-, sors chance, lot — more at series
Date:
14th century
1 : the use of power gained from the assistance or control of evil spirits especially for divining : necromancy
2 : magic 2a"

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"Witch

Main Entry:
1witch
Pronunciation:
\ˈwich\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wīh holy — more at victim
Date:
before 12th century
1: one that is credited (note that the article says "credited" and not simply "is". This implies that this is a more current definition based on modern perceptions of the term and not what it's "traditional" definition is)with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or familiar : sorceress — compare warlock
2: an ugly old woman : hag
3: a charming or alluring girl or woman
4: a practitioner of Wicca
5: witch of agnesi"


Now, we must also take into account that these two definitions are influenced by the modern media, especially the case against the definition of "witch", and thousands of years of influence and change. What's the point in all of this? It is to point out that "sorceress" and "witch" are two very different terms, at least in modern times if not in ancient history as well. The Bible DOES NOT state that one should persecute Pagan, earth-worshipping witches, but "evil" sorceresses that go about harming others with evil intent and negative powers. The Bible does NOT state that witches should be killed for what they believe in. Why is this important or relevant to both Christians and non-Christians? THIS is why:

http://www.witchvox.com/wren/w_editorials/tempestsmith.html

"Hidden Hatred Haunts Pagans
- by Wren Walker


There can be only one explanation: A spell has been cast upon the United States.

Thanks in part to the popularity of the Harry Potter books and to television shows such as 'Charmed' and 'Sabrina, The Teenage Witch'; everyone in America knows what a spell is. Spells are something cast by Witches. Maybe even by a whole coven of those Witches. Witches and spells are linked forever in the American psyche-sort of like ballots and chads.

Only the million or more Witches, Wiccans and Pagans that reside within this country didn't cast this one.

Take a bubbling cauldron of mainstream religious arrogance, toss in a pinch of two-thousand-year-old stereotyping, add a dash of governmental indifference and top it all off with a measured dose of bland media platitudes and what have we brewed up?

If two young people dress in black, they are teased and taunted at their school and presumed to be 'Goths' and interested in Witchcraft. (They weren't.)

And if these same two young people then one day decide to go to that school with some guns and kill several of their Christian classmates (and themselves), the media just can't get enough of it.

Every written and spoken word takes on new meaning. Every aspect of their home life and school interactions are scrutinized. Every pundit on every talk show and every editorial writer from the New York Times to the Rocky Mountain News has a theory, a commentary or a soaring inspirational piece about the tragedy. And in the end, a new Christian martyr, Cassie Bernall, is the subject of a book and the name 'Columbine' is forever branded into American history.

And we learn that guns don't kill people; people kill people.

If a young girl dresses in black, she is teased and taunted at her school and presumed to be a Goth and interested in Witchcraft. (She was.) And if she resolves not to go to school one day with a gun, but decides instead that she will simply end her pain by taking her own life, well-- that doesn't make her book material really; it makes her just another teen suicide.

What may make this case different from the first is that twelve-year-old Tempest Smith's tormenters ARE the Christians. And their weapons of choice were not guns, but "Christian hymns".

Will the notebooks and computers of Tempest's classmates' be seized and searched now? Will their CDs be examined for subversive anti-Pagan lyrics? Or will their parents be questioned about their family's prayer life at the local police station? Will they be sued for not exerting proper parental control over their vocalizing offspring?

"The last thing we want to do is make our students feel guilty," said Lincoln Park Middle School Principal Robert Redden. "But, maybe there is a lesson to be learned here: that we should strive to treat each other with more kindness."

No, it doesn't look like Tempest is going to be elevated to Cassie Bernall status anytime soon. But, "maybe" she will make an interesting lesson plan.

"Gunman targeted Christian girl because of her beliefs." BIG story there! And why not?

"Christians targeted girl because of her beliefs". No big story there. And why not?

And we learn that Christian hymns don't kill people; children of another religion who can no longer endure being mocked with Christian hymns day after day kill themselves.

And Pagan shop owners like Jamie Cain of Walker, Louisiana, aren't driven out of towns by Christians marching into her place of business and shouting bible passages, such as "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", either. Christians don't actually perpetuate hate crimes against Pagans; they just don't want 'that kind' in their town of pretty white churches.

And we learn that one person's death threat is just another person's scripture passage.

No big story there either. No CNN Crossfire. No Larry Ling Live. No "Breaking News Story' on MSNBC or Fox.

America must be under a spell.

What other reason could there be for the lack of incensed Democratic congressmen and women showing up on every television talk program decrying the rising tide of intolerance directed toward their Pagan-American constituents?

Why else would the great liberal editorial voices of the New York Times and The Washington Post not be lifted up in outrage?

What else would prevent President George W. Bush from calling for an official investigation-- or at least calling Tempest's grieving mother to offer some sort of comfort?

And what else can possibly account for the eerie silence of the American people-a people who swear to uphold the rights of liberty, freedom and justice for all-when confronted by the hidden hatred that haunts Pagans-- and hunts gays-- and eliminates the names of black voters from the rolls.

America must really be under a spell.

And it is a spell that only real Americans can break.


Walk in Light and Love,


March 12th., 2000
The Witches' Voice
Clearwater, Florida"

Taunting Wiccans/Pagans until they commit suicide? THAT is a major issue that needs to be remedied. America has the liberty of freedom of religion, so why are Christians driving innocent people to commit suicide because of their beliefs? That is absolutely wrong on all levels(considering the Bible even says that Wiccans shouldn't be killed), right? Jesus taught us to love each other, yes? So what I'm really trying to say, and I'm most certainly not trying to preach here, but why are people so negative towards Pagans? Is it just because we're not Christian? If that's the case, then why aren't these same acts of mental trauma used on atheists, or Buddhists, or Muslims...? Is it just the fact that we're Pagan make us "evil"?

Quotes from some "influential" Christians...

""I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
-Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue
Quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana. 8-16-93"

""In winning a nation to the gospel, the sword as well as the pen must be used." "Democracy is a heresy against God!"
-R.J. Rushdooney, Director of the Rutherford Institute,
which was the principal funder of Monica Lewinsky's
legal defense, and architect of "Christian Reconstructionism.""

""We were here first. You don't take our shared common values and say they are biased and bigoted ... We are the keepers of what is right and what is wrong." (San FranciscoChronicle, September 13, 1993)
LOU SHELDON (Founder and president of the Traditional Values Coalition)"

"When the Chris-tian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distri-bution of pornography, no more abortion on demand, and no more talk of rights for homo-sexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism (i.e., multicultural-ism) will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil.
Gary Potter, President, Catholics for Christian Political Action

So now we can't have basic human rights and liberties...?

I suppose I'm just upset because we're supposed to ALL have the liberties that our Constitution entails, not just Christians (even though a lot of the Christians I've met are fairly tolerant, and even accept Pagan religions and don't try to discriminate, but it seems as though this behavior isn't common for the rest of the population...), and it seems that Pagans always get harassed and discriminated against because we follow a religion that has been deemed "evil" by the church for hundreds of years, when we don't do anything evil at all. Is this right at all?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians, ... the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this [terrorist attack] happen." Jerry Falwell, 700 Club, 2001-SEP-13. 2

I think you have an image problem, but really most religions do. Also historical problems with Christianity. I suspect that the alliance of pagans with green ideology will give them an image boost, overall. Even Christians are getting on that particular band wagon. Moving the image away from the satanist one (which I know is unfounded) towards the more earth-friendly ideology is a good start. Anyways that is my prophesy for 2008-9

Well Lady Otterwynnd there are many things in this country that are unfair. It's unfair that in many states gays can not get married. I don't discriminate against you for being a wiccan. It does seem like many people out there are not as kind as me and unfairly judge others. I don't judge anyone before I get to know them. I certainly don't discriminate against any group. This is a Cristian run country though and many other groups get it bad. I can't say I know what it's like to be discriminated against because of religion as I'm not very religious. No it isn't right your religion gets unfairly judged because of how the church advertises it. I'll tell you though just try not to be bothered by anyone who does discriminate against you or your religion. As those that cruelly discriminate are idiots and not worth your time.

You're right Belle, I think the green movement will really help the Pagan image, or at least I hope it will.

""Never doubt that a thoughtful, committed, group of citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that has." -- Margaret Mead"

Thanks Grither. It's terribly unfair that this country is solely Christian run, but I suppose it cannot be helped. It's where a lot of the votes come from I guess =\. We've had one Catholic president, and the rest? Christian. No surprise there, though. Hopefully in the near future we'll have a president who isn't a Christian, so everyone can see that even if you're part of a different religion, you're still a good person. Not to say Christians don't make good presidents; it's just that we need some variety every now and then.

I've heard different versions of those verses some say that it never said Witch. That it met someone who uses herbs & someone mistranslated it to say Witch & they never changed it back. The Hewbrew word was Chasaph, I've also heard different words for the same thing.


The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.

The original wording of these verses condemned individuals who followed practices defined by these 8 Hebrew words:

1. yid'oni: knowers; wizards; persons who make contact with spirits who are not of God. (Some Wiccans have engaged in spiritism and have attempted to contact the dead. However, this is not necessarily an integral part of the Wiccan religion).
2. sho'el 'ov: making forbidden contact with the dead. (Ditto) .
3. qosem q'samim: predicting the future by using lots or a similar system. (Many Wiccans as well as Christians sometimes use tarot cards, runes, scrying etc. to foretell the future, but this is not an integral part of the Wiccan religion) .
4. m'onen: predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature. (Ditto) .
5. m'nachesh an enchanter (perhaps a snake charmer, because "nachash" means snake. We have never heard of Wiccan snake charmers) .
6. chover chavar: use of knot-tying to perform magic. (Wiccans sometimes engage in knot-tying, but only for positive healing magic. Again, it is a practice that some engage in, but is not an integral part of their religion).
7. m'khaseph: an evil sorcerer (as in Exodus 22:18); a person using spoken spells to harm others. (Wiccans do not engage in this activity; they are specifically prohibited from doing so by their Wiccan Rede).
8. doresh 'el hametim: a person who makes contact with the dead - probably by another method than sho'el 'ov. (Again, there are some Wiccans who engage in spiritism, but it is not necessarily an integral part of their religion).


http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm Again some of these words have nothing to do with Wiccans.




Your correct it's not right but there are some people out there like Fawell who preach these things as truths!

Ah no problem Lady Otterwynnd. Indeed we do need more variety in our presidency. We also need better presidents in general.

Thanks for the breakdown of the specific Hebrew terms, Norwood! As one can see, most of those don't apply to Wiccans, or aren't things that are specifically designated to Wiccan teachings. It's unfortunate that there are some people who preach the death of Pagans. That's just not right for any religion, even Christians.

Yes, Grither, we do need better presidents in general XD.

What seperatism gains fundamentalist christians is the ability to keep a solid wall between who they think is acceptable and who they think isn't. Basically a license to dismiss what they don't like and chalk it up to "scripture". In the past for whatever reason the christian faith has used the tactic of calling anything it didn't like or that competed with it evil. Same goes for witches. Whatever the meaning behind the scriptural idea of a witch, (meaning at the time it was written it could have been many things including midwives, or herbalists, or a wisewoman), the modern fundamentalist christian has taken it to mean modern pagans. How convenient really, yet another scapegoat as we have seen with the Falwell qote.

Having said that we live in a free country, and it is up to everyone else and yourself to keep it that way. Voting someone in who doesn't agree with fundamentalism is a start. The biggest issue is that these minority christians are the loudest and pushiest of the group, and they drown out moderate and liberal christians who do not feel the same way. As a pagan myself it really chaps my hide that people like Falwell were allowed to say those kinds of things and no one tried to get them to step down from a leadership position. Up to very close to the time of his death Falwell was graduating a class from his religious university hell bent on turning the US into a christian only nation whether we want it or not. Don't ignore the hatred they spew but instead of getting angry get motivated.

That's very true, Dark. Instead of spitting hatred right back at those who condemn one, one should use that to show people that one's beliefs are not evil, but peaceful and beautiful.

The problem is that here in the U.S unless of the Judeo-Christian faith you can forget about running for president. People think I am nuts for saying this over & over but people like Falwell have more power then most like to admit.

.

Yeah. There's basically three prerequisites for being president in the US: 1. Caucasian 2. Christian 3. Male. If you don't fit those, you're basically out of luck. It's a great thing that an African-American, a Mormon, and a woman have run for president this year. It's something beautiful if you ask me. We need to learn that people are people, and they will run the country as people, not as their religion, race, or gender stereotypes say they will.

This is a bit off topic but it does seem to somehow fit into his thread. Like I said before it goes back to edcuation same can be said for ALL religions don't whine of your not going to do something about it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjhDvZTiGs...feature=related

All of you guys (and girls) are making me so motivated to educate people on Paganism. I think we (or at least maybe I will) should definitely start educating people on these religions , what they mean, what they worship, and how they're just another religion. I definitely think that part of the misconceptions are under-education, or lack of any education, on these religions. Maybe if more people knew that Pagans were just normal, peaceful people we wouldn't have so many misconceptions and discriminations. Although, how does one go about educating people in the Pagan religions without causing extreme upset in Christians(and other religions)?

I sent you a link check your messages.... Or just click here..............http://www.paganpride.org/

Dear one, please understand that the people in "charge" are claiming Christianity, but they are not operating in it. They have dark ties and are deceiving the minions. They have a form of Christianity, but it is not the true Christianity. Please don't blame all of the true Christians, for we only have your souls in mind, that you will go to heaven. We really have your best in mind. If we are wrong, we will have led a good life, if we are right, we will have eternal bliss. Too many people use religion as a control. It is a choice. But you have to be aware of the choice, that is why true Christians tell you about it and let you decide. Much love, GIN

Ohh, of course I didn't mean to say that all Christians act like this, Ghost. I've met plenty of Christians who are kind, loving people, including my own family. It's just there are so many people who claim to be Christians, and who have hundreds, and even thousands, of followers (like TV evangelicists), but who say everyone else is worshipping Satan and sacrificing babies and eating people(really, I've heard people say this), and it's just not true. Nor is it fair to us. Yes, those people may not be "true" Christians, and they may have people's souls in mind, but that doesn't give them the right to call us Satan worshippers and make our religion seem so evil. I know that there are kind Christians who accept other people's beliefs, but there are also a lot of people who believe in those stereotypes and then badger and harm Wiccans until we become snippy, paranoid, and just plain mean when it comes to Christians. I certainly don't blame (or at least I don't consciously blame) Christians for caring about my soul and telling me about their religion because of that, but some of them take it too far, and frankly it gets quite infuriating after a while. A lot of Christians don't understand that "No thanks, I have my own beliefs" means just that. It is very sad that people use religion as a means of control, but I suppose that is just part of human nature, as sad as that is. Don't fret, Ghost, I do respect polite and understanding Christians, and those who don't respect me and say I believe in the devil and sacrifice babies I just ignore. It's easier to ignore those closed-minded people than to fight fire with fire.

Lady Otterwynnd,



I would love to see more Pagans come out of the closet so to speak but it can be scary, for me I never worried about if people didn't understand what I believe or not. My wife & I want kids & so I have jumped on the bandwagon, I want our kids to grow without being afraid of being looked down on or made fun of & perhaps they will pass it on to thier children & so on. It has to somewhere.

It's like we're living in Medieval Times, when people were burned at the stake just beause of their religious views. It's sad, but have we learned nothing from history??
Almost 40,000+ women were murdered because they were thought to be witches.
Almost 283+ men and women were burned alive in England because of their religion.
When will it stop? My religion is better than yours, and is the truth??? Why??
I'm sorry, but I believe that ALL religions lead to God, whether we call him Jehovah, Allah, or Yahweh.
I get tired of people beating down other religions, whether it be Christian or Pagan.
(Believe it or not, most things Christians celebrate, come from Pagan religions...)

I am not aiming my post at anyone at all. This is just my personal belief.
It's a free country, and people should be able to practice whatever religion they want.
Isn't that what it says in the Constitution?? Freedom of Religion??

By the way, I do classify myself as a Christian. ANY Christian who judges you because of your religion, isn't really a Christian!!

No offense Ghost but isn't that up to us to decide? Lets face it if anyone wants to find out about any religion all they have to do is look it up. So why not let people come to you instead of telling them what they should be doing?

That's very true Lady_B, but a lot of people still hold the "holier than thou" and "my belief is right and you're wrong" attitudes. We do have freedom of religion, but it doesn't seem that a lot of people respect or follow that. People say we should teach creationism in schools, but that isn't being fair or respectful to other religions, and it's pressing certain beliefs on people. But people just don't get that. People need to learn that religion is personal choice, not something that everyone needs to follow the exact same way. And yes, Norwood, I hope that people will be able to accept others for their beliefs more easily, and I applaud you for being confident enough to raise your children in your Pagan (Druid if I'm not mistaken?) beliefs. I hope that your children will be as confident in their beliefs, and as accepting as you.

I'm not sure under which path they will be raised in. We're going to let them choose while I am a Druid my wife is a witch so..... well see!


I think we're just going to raise them as Pagan & let then choose thier own path when they are ready.

I agree.

You stole the words out of my mouth. So well worded, so true.

As a former Christian, I can attest to this kind of treatment and rational by them, heck, I've use it! I am so glad I am out of that delusion now.

I still love you sister no matter what you believe, and so does Heavenly Father and Mother, Those who Hate and instill intolerance will deal with The same after this life, It is their own doing, even though while in body they will try and blame father (GOD) for the hurts instiled on his brother, after this life Full acountability and consciousness will be theirs alone.

I feel For them. This is the sort of thing that will make one send him self to a place Of remorse of biblical proportions, But while on Earth they think doing this will send them to Heaven, Like God is as Bigoted as they are .

Wait till they find our Father loves all unconditionally.

Sad , Verrrry Sad.

Love Omnaka

Unfortunately,yes...they do have power...but it's all in the form of the "Almighty Dollar",which they (the Fundamentalists/Evangelists) con out of the gullible people they claim as followers.They do not,however,have a majority as far as voting goes...unless many people decide not to vote.

Take the 2004 Presidential election.If I remember correctly (anyone who is willing can correct the percentages,for these are approximations based on memory),out of those who were eligible to vote...only about 75% of them were registered.Out of that 75%,about 20% or so did not vote (using the standard exuses of time/work conflicts and such).That gives us approximately 55% for the people who actually voted.That's just slightly above half those who were eligible to vote.Now,Bush won the election with 50.7% of the vote,to Kerry's 48.3% ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States..._election,_2004 ).So,only about half of that 55% actually voted for Bush.That half equals only slightly above 25% the eligible voters in the country at that time.It's really not a majority.Now...how many of that 1/4 of the population eligible to vote were actually Fundamentalists/Evangelists? Probably not as many as some would like to think.

Edit: I'm not going to attempt to figure in how many didn't get to vote due to the voting controversies.

I dont advocate that in modern times witches be put to death, any more than children who disrespect their parents, but i do know that when the bible was written there were good social and other reasons for such laws.

No matter what their name, any one who practised "witch craft"" was seen as a danger, because it was felt that those practices could actually work and harm peole)

Probably the only reason witchcraft or other forms of sorcery are accepted now, is precisely because very few people really believe they can affect the physical world.

Just as doctors and chemists need to be licensed and regulated heavilly by the govt, if witches, sorcerers, or others, actually believe they can influence the real world or people, perhaps they should all require; formal education, accreditation and regulation, just like others who deal with human health and drugs. In australia, even hypnotism is illegal by other than accredited medical practitioners.
Actually, come to think of it the same thing applies to all religious leaders in Australia. They have to have qualifications including academic, and are carefully regulated by governments, in areas of public connection such as marriages and preaching.
If other religions meet the same criteria, i have no objection to them operating in the same way e g marriages funerals and preaching.

im pretty sure for example that bringing snakes into a church service and handling them would be illegal in australia. Not only is the keeping of snakes without a lot of permits illegal, but the rspca would probably be onto them for cruelty to animals. lol (and of course it would be seen as unsafe for the humans and therefore occupational health and safety laws would come into play.)

You never know how people a going to behave or what the future will bring. When I look around me I see the Pagan religions growing. How long will it be when we will be a real threat to the Abrahamic religions. I think a time will come when people begin to see the Earth as our Mother and leave the dogma of Abrahamic religions behind. We have always been a threat to Abrahamic religions as they show by the words of their scriptures. But they are going to have to get use to us Pagans because we aren't going away and our numbers are growing like it or not.

That's a very good point, Mr Walker, but could the same thing be applied to prayer then? Prayer is basically the same concept as magick and witchcraft, so to be fair one would have to put legal restrictions on both forms of healing/physical change/worship. Of course, I bet that would make both Wiccans and Christians upset, and I'm fairly certain most Wiccans know that magick is not a substitute for empirical medicine. All of the medicinal herb, healing crystal, and physic healing books I've read say that, and people have died because of prayer too. I'm fairly certain we had a thread going about a young girl who died from diabetes because her parents refused to take her to the hospital because they had faith that their prayer would heal her? So, one cannot say that witchcraft has to be legally monitored without putting the same restrictions on prayer as well.

But prayer does have a lot of restrictions placed on it. Maybe more so in Australia than in America, where freedom of speech is enshrined in the constitution. For example public prayer which instigates/ encourages violence or hatred, or racial vilification is illegal in most australian states. both in oral or published forms. Religious prayers are not encouraged and are actually barred in many public schools .

Of course, wiccan or christian, it is difficult to monitor or legislate on private prayer. In Australia parents are not allowed to refuse medical treatment or to restrict diet of minors based on religius beliefs, where there is a danger to the child's welfare.

I think christian prayer is only lightly regulated, again, because people do not believe it is effective. Thus, blasphemy is no longer a public/criminal offence in most jurisdictions, although it was until a generation or so ago.

There was an apparently excellent programme on national tv this weekend, which i missed, which pointed out the dangers of all alternative medicines which have any faith base, as opposed to modern scientific medicine. This would include both faith healing and a lot of naturalistic or homeopathic medicines ( although some are recognised as having scientific validity)
Personally, i have had only one experience with faith based, "laying on of hands". It was at least as effective as the 6 months physio i underwent, although i think the two complemented each other , increasing the effectiveness of both.

Not sure if anyone has posted this view but 'thou shall not suffer a witch to live' is not a global edict but one specific to the territory of the ancient Israelites. No one should imagine this is is a call for any other age or time.

It is truly sad what happened to Tempest Smith. Will post more after I read the thread in full.

Indeed the Bible does not state that. As I stated above this was specific for the territory and time of the Israelites. They did not go outside of their realm of influence once they gained all the lands they believed were promised to them and continue crusades and conquests against other tribes and nations. What they did do was remain insular.

Besides all that America is hardly Christian today. The media hates us and the media seems to be the number one indoctrinator of what people believe now days and it is what influences millions on how to live. We should also remember the word government itself means 'to rule the mind'. Anyone who wants to rule another's mind and makes it a goal is not on the up and up if you ask me.



A Bible believing Christian will not see this as true. In fact we see that all the governments of the world are under the influence of the dark one. Not just because that is something to say but that is something within our Scriptures. When Satan promised Jesus all the world's kingdoms he was not bluffing. This was something he could have followed through for he has influence in them. This is our view. It has nothing to do with Wicca.



Excellent find norwood with all the Hebrew words. One things we cannot forget is Wicca is quite a new religion in itself. It might be derived from older beliefs but the way it is structured is new so this was not what was talked about in any Bible. Another thing to take note is one of the words for sorcery in the New Testament is 'pharmakia'. Drugs. Just a bit of trivia.



The same way a Christian goes about it. By not provoking anyone in doing so. As soon as someone is deliberately attempting to provoke another they have failed especially if that is their attention. Sure many will be provoked just because of our beliefs but those are things we cannot help and we should mind the things we can help. I agree with you and have stated many times more awareness of Paganism must be made.

Definitely not accusing you of going about it wrong but made this statement in general. As far as your efforts it is best if you are going to start a campaign of any sort to have the input of a few caring Christians to help you. Just as I stated in the Pagan post joey made that when the believers of the Word were accused of blashpeming the goddess it was a false charge. They did not do that and that is an example every Christians should take to heart regardless of what someone else believes in. Just because it is not for us does not mean we have to try and slam it or worse become prey to the dark one and let hate seep in our hearts towards others for any reason.



GIN this is so very true.



A good start would be to stop making things worse than they are. We are hardly living in such times. But the burning times are not over in other parts of the world especially when one is labelled a witch and is attacked or even cast out of the village as in Ghana. The most persecuted religion though in the world is Christianity so let us not forget that either for they suffer dearly in other nations today as of now. Either way my point is we should not view the world through a lens of negativity that will blur our vision. If we go into something with a paranoid view that America is just as bad as Medieval times or that everyone is out to get us then we will hardly make ground for we will always be reactionaries instead of proactive planners of peace and accord.



I disagree. If anything people are becoming irreligious and casting all belief aside. Maybe this trend will soon reverse itself. As of right now Islam and Pentecostalism are the two fastest growing religions in the world. As an aside I do see the growth in the New Age. What we have to understand is that Paganism can be a broad umbrella but Eurocentric Paganism and Neopaganism even if it grows, as it is, but if it continues globally will come to odds with other Pagan beliefs around the world. This is how it was in older times when people fought amongst each other over whose gods and goddesses were more powerful. The scene in one of the Conan movies brings to light this issue when Conan was asked who he worshipped and he said the sun for it shines on all or something to that effect.

Myself personally do not see any threats to my belief system other than those claiming they are Christians but are not practicing it biblically or worse misrepresenting the Bible. These are the true threats, the inner threats, and not outside competition. If the light within us cannot win over others then we cannot help that but if the light within us does not even shine we have failed.

the word translated as witch should be translated as poisoner. so someone who makes poisons should not be allowed to live.

Many christians rather than studying for themselves what the bible says, just take someones word for it.

everyone of any religion should stand up to those claiming to be a member of their religion, but is perverting and twisting it to take advantage of others, or to promote their own agendas. in another thread about oprah, someone said we have no right to call her out. she claims to be a christian, then as a christian I have every right to call her out when she is teaching false doctrines.

yes, all religions have differences amoung themselves, but they also have fundamental constants, and when someone claims to belong to a religion, and is perverting those fundamental constants, then we must stand up and call them out. if we did, cults would not have as much a hold on people as they do now.

Here in the US we have freedom of religion. which means that cults can form, it also means that those whom these cults claim even a remote kinship to have the right to stand up to them. I also believe we have not only the right to do so, but an obligation to do so. first for our God, then for the people who would be harmed by the false doctrines. (any religion, anything that deviates from the base doctrine of a religion can be called false)

zing! though i would focus on the false doctrine (posion) she is teaching rather than her herself.

Just some things I ran across......this shows you how stupid people really are! This is just a small amount of what I found but still this is why I feel the need to help others understand what it is we believe.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwsbJ6LE9HM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWhpzAltdKo...feature=related

Let us look at the original source of the Bible.....translated by people with a better understanding of ancient Hebrew.

Shemot - Exodus
Chapter 22
17 Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org

wow, that first video is scary, norwood. . . . Things like that make me happy I live where I do. I may get snears every now and then and dirty looks, but it is nothing compared to what others have to deal with in other countries. Poor woman!

The USA is the nation that produced the book the Wizard of Oz.
The concept of good witches and bad witches has been passed on from cradle to grave in the USA for a very long time now.
It is an impossibility at this point for a few haters to change that.

How in the world John F.Kennedy won as president,i have no idea. Al Smith ran for president back in the 1920s,he was a Catholic from New York.My grandfather didn't care for him ,but voted for him any ways,as he was a fellow Catholic.
Kennedy had to reasure protestant voters,especially fundementalists that he was his own man,and no the Pope wasn't going to take over America if he became president.This has always been a common theme with Catholic politicans,that some how they were in league with the Vatican and were going to put the US under the pope's thumb.
lot of Catholics even politicans don't pay attention to what comes out of Rome's mouth.
I don't care what a politican's beliefs are,I just what someone who has brains and knows what he or she is doing to run the country.
I find these fundementalist types dangerous as they seek to control the country and run it based on their protestant principles and no one better oppose them and everyone,Catholics,Jews, Muslims, even fellow protestants like Lutherans and Episcopalians better tow the line.Fundementalists regardless of religion are dangerous simply because they are intolerant.

I haven't looked at the Vulgate Bible ,translated by St.Jerome for a while,so will have to check the quote out.

Christian fundamentalism is in decline, the numbers are shrinking yearly.

Islamic fundamentalism is on the rise and under sharia law all those who are Wiccans and Pagans will be put to death.

There is a lot at stake in the world right now.

I'll never accept pagans, as long as they keep their baby recipes to themselves. A little sharing goes a long way guys...

There are some of you who say that the people who believe this or that way are not Christians, to a point I agree. However with any religion thier is a core set of belifes that go along with it. The cores belifes of Christianty are as follows.


We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy universal and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


As far has what the bible says about Witchcraft will always stand you can't tell then that the word was translated wrong. And honestly you can't change it either they do not see they bible as being flawed that passage points it out to them theat it might be.

Yup Islamic fundamentalist are to be feared that is for sure. Just the thought of sharia law imposed on any country give me the shivers. Any kind of fundamentalism is not a good thing, especially if it is mixed with government. I would like it if line "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" was taken out of the Bible, but that is not going to happen. Of course if they took that out there would be other things of hateful nature that should be stricken and that would make it a short read.

We all know that will never happen people to not like to see the flaws in thier religions & they all have them.

All extant versions of the Bible descend from just three schools: the Babylonian (Masoratic, KJV), the Egyptian (LXX) and the Hebrew. How does this passage translate in each of those?

Second, You're using modern definitions of "witch" vs. "sorceress." This is what you criticized KJV for doing.

Self-proclaimed Fundamentalist Christian bigots draw a graphic picture of the terrible world they wish to create. I, for one, will be standing with the pagans if this ever comes to pass. But don't give up yet. I'm hearing even fundamentalists rejecting this doomsday picture.
Doug

What you are quoting derives from the Nicene Creed. It was composed by the (Christian) Council of Nicea at the instigation of the (Pagan) emperor Constnatine I in order to quell the (Christina) religious violence then confronting the empire. Constantine then used the power of the empire to banish any dissident bishops, effectively stripping them of their pulpits. Ironic that the anti-paganism of the Christian church should have originally been promoted by a pagan.

FYI: Constantine became a Christina on his death bed, some 12 years AFTER the Council of Nicea. He was a pagan when he converted the empire to Christianity.
Doug

Darn...you beat me to it. Lol

But as Clovis stated, if you look at just the Torah and disregard the Talmud (as Christians do) you will see that witchcraft and sorcery is not prohibited for all mankind. In fact, there is a verse where God says he gave that stuff to the nations but that Israel shall not participate in it because they have a different purpose. Also, technically (if you are not Jewish (meaning your mom isn't Jewish)) then it is not prohibited for you to practice Witchcraft. Now, if you went to Israel you would have to cease your practice while you were in the Land of Israel, but as soon as you went back to your own nation you could do it if you wanted. Granted, a person who follows God's laws concerning witchcraft would most definitely benefit from refraining from occult practices, however, it is not prohibited to the Gentiles.

This was an interesting article and offers the notion that the modern concept if Witch is not the same as it was before. Not sure how much I agree with the implied conclusion but on face value it seems correct:





Source

Ok, fine even still the majoroty of those who call themselves Christians believe that there is one God & he sent his son to die for the sins of man & that his son rose from the dead. Those who believe in him will live forever.