These pictures are from Central America. They prove - in my opinion - the existance of Ancient Greeks and their influence on the most important civilizations of the America in ancient times.
My question is very simple: Nobody has ever looked at these evidences which exists in almost all the archaeological areas of America?


Uxmal Mexico. Greek meanders, spiral decorations and the entrance in the shape of the
greek letter L (Lamda). Three greek symbols in the same photo are too much to be a coincidence.


The treasury of Atreus


Uxmal Mexico. The Governor's palace.


Cycladic krater from 650 BC. The highlighted meander is exactly the
same as the decorated relief from the governor's palace of Uxmal.

More details and more photos about the subject at
Ancient Greeks in America

Ok.

Those are pretty common Architectural concepts. And basic art concepts. Little kids draw stuff like that when they learn to draw squares.

I do think that it is possible that Greeks, Phoenicians or some other sea faring culture had some contact with the Ancient Americas. How much influence they had is very debatable.

Your "lambda shaped" opening is what's known as a corbelled arch.

It's the only way to make an arch without knowledge of the principle of the keystone.

These sorts of arches are found all over the world, in older architecture, for that reason.

Harte

No, it isn't even vaguely possible. You can see from this map of the known world that they didn't know the americas existed. And thet had of known, they would have made records of it.

I agree.

I've heard that Roman artifacts have been found in the Americas too. Archeology is so contorted by politics that it's hard to get to the truth on ancient cultural development.

the trouble with Greek and Roman artifacts -- almost always coins, and which almost always conveniently disappear before somebody with training can get a good look in -- is that they've had 500 years or so to get here in lots of different ways, none of which are less likely than unrecorded ancient contact.

--Jaylemurph

It's possible if the Greeks who made it over here never made it back. I don't know of any evidence of ancient Greeks reaching America, though. IIRC, there was a stable population of around twenty million in North America when Europeans later discovered it, so a handful of Greeks would probably have disappeared without a trace.

I dunno. Most of the damage Europeans did, they did with disease. Even a handful of Greeks would bring over lots of new and interesting diseases to the Indians; I'd be willing to believe *they* might leave a trace.

--Jaylemurph

JM,

That really is an excellent point.

The Greeks would have certainly brought many diseases to the New World.

So would have the Vikings, though. But there was no result there, was there?

Harte

I thought about that. I've never seen any thought on the subject before. All I can suggest is that maybe the Canadian areas weren't as densely populated or that the micro-organisms of the disease had a harder time thriving there than further South. And I don't know what kind of contact the Norse would have had with the natives -- though I think I can remember reading that a few loan words slipped into the natives, which does suggest significant contact.

For all we know, there /could/ have been a huge native die-off near L'Anse aux Meadows and elsewhere that we know nothing about. And after all I've said here, I'd hate -- hate -- to suggest turning to mythology for definitive proof.

--Jaylemurph

Harte and jaylemurph: excellent points, both . On the other hand, an American disease could have wiped out the Greeks as easily as vice versa.

Ehm, yes... which again proves that.....

What?

How dare you imply that the Noble Native American might harbor some illness that could do damage to another living thing!

Everyone knows it was only the white Europeans that carried such plagues to the more civilized cultures.

Harte

But... erm... /did/ that happen? I don't seem to recall Europeans keeling over dead from American diseases. But then -- as I keep saying -- I don't know much about this kind of thing.

I mean, the importance of William Davenant in keeping Shakespearean drama alive, yes. Questions of authorship in Arden of Faversham, yes. Diseases amongst American colonists, no. Things of interest to actual people, no.

--Jaylemurph

Sure, Jaylemurph, you remember.

Many Americans died from a native disease called hatchet head, many more from arrow-in-spine.

Several others from knife in the gut, buried to neck in anthill, and we're taking your wife and kids whitey.

Not to mention tobacco, Rho tells me.

Rho's the member that's too damn shy to post. You'll find him either at the members list or, if you look, you'll see him over my right shoulder at this instant.

Harte

These are fascinating points that never occurred to me. The death toll when Europeans arrived in Central America couldn't possibly have been as severe if the diseases had been introduced before. I can imagine that the population to the west of the Andes could possibly have had no contact with the eastern population, but if Europeans had landed anywhere along the east coast of the Americas, the diseases would have worked their way around the Gulf of Mexico.

The Vikings definitely had a settlement in Newfoundland at L'anse Aux Meadows. And the North American Indians didn't have any immunity either.

I've read that a lot of the Old World diseases that devastated America came from the Europeans' livestock rather than the Europeans themselves. Pigs were especially contagious. The Spanish brought farm animals along with them as a food supply. The Vikings didn't do this-- they fished off their boats. So maybe the northern native Americans had no immunity because the Vikings didn't have livestock and the southern native Americans had no immunity because there simply hadn't been any contact (or the ancient Greeks didn't bring animals along with them, either).

Really too shy? Or just considers us a bunch of illusion forgers?

That's true (although syphilis was one of the big threats and it wasn't passed through livestock. At least, I hope it wasn't...); but the Vikings -- if they did come here with any intention of being colonists -- would have brought some livestock with them: ponies, cattle and sheep, just as they did in Greenland and Iceland.

--Jaylemurph

I don't think they brought ponies, cattle and sheep with them on their exploratory voyages. Only once they were ready to settle.

I thought syphilis went the other way. Traveling back to Europe and Asia with Columbus and the early explorers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis

Well, clearly, if you can read the Wiki article, you can see that's not the only theory; certainly the Augustinian monks from 14th Century Kingston and skeletons from Pompeii suggest against it.

--Jaylemurph

Some epidemiologists now believe that the epidemics that obliterated the great Central American cultures of the 16th century were not of European origin. A leading proponent of this theory is Mexican epidemiologist Rodolfo Acuña-Soto (Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico). His theory is that the diseases were hemorrhagic fevers that evolved locally. Evidently, when the conquistadors noticed that the Native American population was dying in droves they sent detailed descriptions of their symptomology back to Spain. The Spaniards' concern was mainly financial-- they were interested in selling the natives as slaves. The symptoms that the explorers recorded don't match European diseases. They are more like ebola. When scientists look at tree rings from this period, it is obvious that this was a time of meteorological abnormality in the Americas. A perfect time for a lethal local virus to evolve.

See "Megadrought and Megadeath in 16th Century Mexico" http://www.cdc.gov/NCIDOD/EID/vol8no4/01-0175.htm

If, in fact, the 16th century plagues were not related to the arrival of Europeans, the history of these epidemics would be unrelated to ancient contact between the "Old World" and the "New World"

I talked Rho (one of my colleagues) into joining.

His main area of interest is sociology.

He, unlike me, spends almost every minute of his time trying to better his teaching methods.

Maybe he's afraid he'll get hooked if he starts posting!

I look to see some posts from him this summer, once school is out.

In the meantime, everybody feel free to PM him and give him a hard time!

Harte

Unfortunately for this theory, lots of the deaths from the period were from diseases Europeans knew perfectly well -- like measles and smallpox, neither of which you'd be likely to mistake for anything else.

To Acuna-Sota's benefit, he himself limits the time and location of his theory, because looking at the situation from a slightly larger perspective -- the rest of the Americas and up to almost two and a half centuries later -- it's just not supported. I mean, it may be true for the places he talks about, but he'd be hard-pressed to counter some of the other records of the time.

--Jaylemurph

Hey this thread is cool. I have been in those buildings at Uxmal.

Other places (like Palenque) seemed very Chinese and Egyptian influenced though, and some of the things at Uxmal seemed as if the people had seen Rome or something and tried to rebuild it with lesser engineering knowledge.

This is a simplistic way to look at things. If the Phoenicians and Carthaginians were able to get over here to the New World, they would have kept the knowledge absolutely secret so that only their cultures would have the access to the enormous store of resources on the continent. These people almost certainly had the seafaring skill and well engineered ships to enable them to cross the ocean.

One other point to consider: disease evolves over time: for example, the Black Death that ravaged Europe in the 14th Century was pretty much a non-player two hundred years later. So the fact that Europeans were contagious with this and that in 1600 doesn't mean the Greeks would have been equally contagious with equally deadly diseases two thousand years earlier. And the fact that Amerind diseases in 1600 were relatively harmless to Europeans doesn't mean that earlier diseases couldn't have been deadly to our hypothetical Greeks.

I agree. I find it doubtful that any culture at any time with vessels capable of sailing the high seas would not have men willing to make a name for themselves and explore. Possibly trying to reach "the end of the world". Of course the chances of reaching the Americas would be very slim. But the possibilities of also making it back would be almost none. So I suppose some may have made it there but never returned.

What?! So they'd decide to do something contrary to every human impulse and contrary to their own cultures? Besides, I think you're vastly over-estimating the size of the ships and skill of the sailors. It's not as if they'd be bringing home boatloads of material from the New World. Their vessels were tiny compared to the ships that would make the first actual trans-Atlantic crossings. So tiny, in fact, they'd never be able to carry enough potable water for the trip, let alone keep it drinkable.

It's the practical details like that that nobody ever discusses, but are the most salient points.

--Jaylemurph

Not because the black plague ceased to be a player (it still happens and is easily curable nowadays), but because the rodent types that can carry the plague for a long time without ill effects simply ceased to exists (except in Mongolia).

Whatever was happened the signs that they left behind them were very strong and not only in some places but in almost all the America's region.
One more example is the Pan's flute a traditional Andean musical instrument .
I'm not sure but i think that Maya lyre was used too, i had seen some mayan frescoes with musicians with a lyre almost the same with the greek lyre.

Below a picture of a greek statue with god Pan with his flute.


Ancient Greeks in America

As you see, the pan flute was developed by almost all cultures, just like the tube flute.

You do know that form follows function, right? Pan's flute is just a bunch of reeds tied together, with different lengths to produce different pitches. It's about as simple an instrument as can be made. And simple things are found first; it in no way implies otherwise-impossible contact. (It's also the reason why Egyptians and Maya had pyramids -- again no contact needed to explain them).

--Jaylemurph

Actually...No. There were huge ships in the ancient world, much larger than the ones that Colombus used. They were very much ocean worthy as well. Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa six hundred years before Christ, a couple of thousand years before Vasco De Gama did it. Don't underestimate the navigational skill of these ancients. I have also read about Phoenician inscriptions in different parts of the New World.

I'm not arguing that Columbus' ships were bigger -- although it's a little unfair to compare an entire civilisation's ship-building with one fleet. And remember, there is -- people looking to make money off you by selling you books to the contrary -- no compelling evidence that the Phoenicians ever made it across the Atlantic (And I'd argue that there's no evidence they ever has any experience sailing in open seas. It's one thing to hug the coast of Africa or Europe, but quite another to sail across the Atlantic.) As we say above, people throw out the most ridiculous excuses to support such ideas: "I found a whole new world, but I ain't telllin' nobody, no how!"

Besides, like every other topic somebody discovers on the internet one afternoon or insists on telling people they were the very first one to think this up, ever, there are dozens of threads on this already.

--Jaylemurph

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about. I don't think you have ever heard of any of the ancient explorers, or anything about the prowess of Phoenician and Carthaginian sailors. Even China had ships that would have made it across the Pacific hundreds of years before Christ. Shipbuilding is an ancient art, and the people of the ancient world really did know exactly what they were doing when they were building ships for the open sea. Navigation and sailing didn't reach the level of the ancient world until around the time of Colombus. For thousands of years, the knowledge (in the West) was dormant.

There were LOTS of deep water sailors in ancient Phoenicia and Carthage.

Look up Necho, Pytheas , Eudoxus, Himilco, Hanno and Skylax.

Yes you are arguing that:

To say with authority there were deep water sailors you have to have evidence that they made it somewhere exclusively through open ocean. And the only place that was available to the Phoenician was the Americas (or -- perhaps -- Australia). Everywhere else they could hug the coast to get there, as indeed they all claim to have done, and for which there is historical evidence. Nothing in the Mediterranean Sea, or the Red Sea, or the Black Sea, or the Arabian Sea or around the coast of Africa is going to be comparable to crossing the Atlantic. And none of the sailors you mention -- skillful as they may have been -- had any training or experience in the open ocean.

And, as I say, there is no single piece of authenticated proof that anyone made it to the Americas in the timeframe you're talking about. Quote from Graham Williams, Sitchin, or van Daniken all you like (not that you have cited any of your claims).

And don't deliberately confuse what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting the pilots weren't skilled and knowledgeable. What I am suggesting is that they didn't do something for which they would have neither a reason or a any proof of doing.

--Jaylemurph

Necho was an Egyptian pharoah, although he did send out an expedition of Phoenicians 'who in 3 years sailed around Africa and back to the source of the Nile' although the Phoenicians account of having the sun on their right hand side the whole journey is a tad fishy.

Eudoxus was Greek who worked for the Ptolemy VIII of the Egyptian Dynasty, found a shipwrecked Indian sailor along the coast of the Red Sea, the sailor offered to show Eudoxes how to sail to India although the monsoon winds discouraged many sailors to venture further than the Arabian ports. The journey would mean a long coast hugging journey. His second attempt to India (this time without a guide) was met with failure as he was blown south along the East coast of Africa, this inspired him to circumnavigate the African continent, setting an expedition from Gades he set off but ultimately had to return prematurely. He set of a second time and was never heard from again.

Himilco, Carthaginian Explorer, one of the first known in the Mediterranean Sea to reach Northern European coastlines (again a coast hugger) Although next to nothing is known about the man himself he is quoted by a few Roman writers.

Hanno the Explorer, the only stated theory of Hanno sailing in Open (Deep Sea) Water was by amateur epigrapher Barry Fell (the marine biologist).

I could find no immediate information on skylax other than a ladder company and US vinyl makers.

There is little evidence in the writings of these men's histories to claim that they had ventured into the Deep Sea area of sailing, although this is just a bried look, most of the info coming from wikipedia and front page articles from google having entered the name.

The size of Phoenecian ships is not truly known. The stories are that they were quite seaworthy, though.
Only a few have ever been found. Here are the largest:


Pardon me if I doubt they could have purposefully made it across the Atlantic rowing a 60-foot boat with one sail and no below deck quarters.

Unlikely to say the least.


Yeah, well I've read about the wolfman. Don't make it true.

I've looked into a lot of these claims of ancient contact between the East and West and have yet to find any real evidence to support them.

Of course, it could have happened by accident.

Harte

Read the version bout the little girl going to grandma's house in the woods Harte...




''Oh my, what big teeth you have Wolfie!...''

A ship does not have to be big to be seaworthy, as long as it maneuverable enough to catch the surf from the front. My little fishing boat could cross the Atlantic (if I would not run out of gas after 200 miles).

The only possibility to cross the Atlantic (unless by accident) by Phoenicians would have been a Galley, the other boat types we know could only ride low on the wind (that is bow wards within 10-15 degrees deviation), but Galleys usually were not used for deep water navigation until the middle ages because they rode too low in the water.

Once we sidestep this by claiming that well, the Chinese build gigantic Junks (for example) we have to remember that in fact they did, about 1500 years after the last Phoenician (who knew the meaning of the word) had kicked the bucket. Comparing the seamanship of the Chinese to all seafarers before them we have to conclude that it is about like comparing Little League with the Big Leagues. They do the same, just the latter a bit better.

So, to make it short: could, in theory, a Greek Trireme reach America? Sure. A few weeks without storm and a drunken Pilot could have gotten them there. Could they have gotten back? Without a compass? Are they kidding? Anybody who has ever been far enough away from land knows that without a precise time keeping device or a compass you just would navigate in a (more or less big) circle. Just try to walk over a longer period of time in a straight line while blindfolded (without a cane) and you will know what I mean. Humans do not have a sense to aid them navigate without a visual reference.

So, now all we need is some evidence of the Greeks knowing a precise time keeping system that was portable (as the Tower of the Winds in Athens could have hardly been put on a boat)... we already have evidence that they did not know the compass.

Until these little details are explained in a satisfactory way we have to conclude that there was no Greek influence in America...unless they got there in a UFO.....

The Stars ? also navigation can also be determined with a sextant ( however im not stating that the greeks had one of those ) how is the compass a time keeping instrument also ?

Actually, that sounds pretty much like a Viking Knarr, which was routinely used to cross the Atlantic circa 1000AD. As you say, it's not likely the Ancients would have deliberately sailed out of sight of land without having some idea of where they were going, but it is possible that storms could have blown them out into the Atlantic, and very rarely across it.

Was that picture strictly necessary, Rebel?




Why? Why do that? It'll be a legitimate thread in a few days...

...I bet you give four-year-olds all manner of sugary snacks, too.

--Jaylemurph

Sure, the Vikings did it by taking advantage of stops in Iceland and Greenland.

In fact, they only reached the New World from Greenland, and then only after several years in Greenland.

As far as we can tell, anyway.

From Greece, now, that's another matter.

Harte

Only if you also can tell the time, if not all you have is Polaris, which means you can only navigate at night, have no compensation for drift (both water current and wind)

And a compass is not a time keeping instrument, but every time keeping instrument is useful for astronomical navigation(therefore can be used in lieu of a compass).

Absolutely, the only stopovers would be Cabo Verde, Madeira or the Azores and the hops would be several thousand miles long.

Not all manners of snacks, but occasionally I gave them one....