My only problem wth your contention is ,why do we need all these different denominations, all of which claim to be the true religion,they can't be all right


fullywired

My only problem wth your contention is ,why do we need all these different denominations....

....all of which claim to be the true religion....

....they can't be all right....

I am never one to 'skirt' around anything, and believe me, I have no compunction about calling 'a spade a spade'. That is why I started my last post with the explanation of the word pray, in an attempt to make obvious the difference between pray as in asking or invoking help, and pray as in worship or adore. I can see that it was futile as you have already made up your mind . Your preconceived judgment led you to authoritatively inform me that I "pray to (worship) Mary" !! How did you come to this conclusion? I was always under the impression that I worshiped God and invoked Mary's prayers. If you know the words of the rosary, you would know that it ends with the words "pray for us sinners now & in the hour of our death". How could I and all those catholics and orthodox, ask her to pray for us if we believe that she is divine? Wouldn't it make more sense in such a case to have asked her something like "forgive us our sins"? Kindly assume first that people are honest enough, and have enough moral courage to call a spade a spade, before you accuse them of the opposite.

Let me sum up again what I said before:
-Prayer for others is biblically condoned & encouraged;
-Based on Jesus' assertion of God being the God of the living not the dead, the parable of Lazarus & the rich man, the quotation from Corinthians, one can INFER that there is life after death, that in the other life people's awareness,knowledge, & wisdom is increased not diminished;
-Since God commanded that we honor our mothers, and Jesus obviously honored his mother by performing his first miracle at her urging even though 'it was not his time';
-Therefore, following James' exhortation to ask for the prayers of the "righteous" , one can safely conclude that it is acceptable to ask for the prayers also of the "mother of God".

These are the basis of my "speculation" that the saints can hear us when we ask them to pray for us. You on the other hand keep on repeating "unbiblical" & asking me to focus on the word, but so far did not offer any "biblical" verses as proof for your "speculation" that the saints can't hear us. Do you have any? I am seriously interested in knowing the answer.

It seems it's me who should ask you to reread my post! I did notice the word 'personally, otherwise I wouldn't have said that you, like me, have the right to have your own INTERPRETATION with which you are personally comfortable. However, you made a sweeping generalization in your post when you said:
'Wrong' & 'unacceptable' are big judgmental words, lets say a bit with 'holier than thou' attitude attached, because you keep on insisting that those of different opinion are worshiping others beside God, even if they deny that.

Asking for the saints' prayers is unacceptable to whom exactly? God or man? You have not shown any proof from the bible, clear or otherwise. There are no clear verses in the bible "saying to do this" or not, so while we are both speculating & inferring, let us both remember one thing the bible clearly said, that in matters of faith & spirit, judgment belongs to God & him alone . Also "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God"1 Corinthians 10:32

Unacceptable to me and unbiblical. So you are willing to do it just on pure speculation?

Let me try to understand this comment. So to be "acceptable," it has to appear in one of the 66 books of the Bible? Considering that the Bible was formed through a thoroughly political process with more than 300 bishops voting, that makes it holy or somehow sanctified?

And if something appears in the Apocrypha, would that be "acceptable?"

Do you think God would allow some untruths to slip into the bible?

Allow me to correct your assumptions of my 'preconceived judgment'. I don't believe you are worshiping Mary so there is no need to convince me you aren't as it would be a waste of time. What perplexes me is that you confess asking Mary to pray for you or invoke Mary's prayers but don't acknowledge you pray to Mary. If I may ask, don't you need to pray to Mary to ask for her prayer? One can only assume it as it is logical.

You must be seeing something I'm not as I still see it as speculation.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Besides, with the Holy Spirit and Jesus why would we need anyone else to intercede?

It is for me, personally, wrong and unacceptable to do meaning I would never do it. Are you taking that for 'I think everyone who does it is wrong'? If so I believe you are twisting my words....Unacceptable to me and unbiblical. So you are willing to do it just on pure speculation?

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.....And he that doubteth is damned ... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:5,23)

But it's well worth noting that for all that fracturing down the centuries the core salvation gospel of Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Mennonites, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Quakers, the Salvation Army and so on remains the same. To me that's one of the strongest proofs of Christianity.

My only problem wth your contention is ,why do we need all these different denominations, all of which claim to be the true religion,they can't be all right


fullywired

I am never one to 'skirt' around anything, and believe me, I have no compunction about calling 'a spade a spade'. That is why I started my last post with the explanation of the word pray, in an attempt to make obvious the difference between pray as in asking or invoking help, and pray as in worship or adore. I can see that it was futile as you have already made up your mind . Your preconceived judgment led you to authoritatively inform me that I "pray to (worship) Mary" !! How did you come to this conclusion? I was always under the impression that I worshiped God and invoked Mary's prayers. If you know the words of the rosary, you would know that it ends with the words "pray for us sinners now & in the hour of our death". How could I and all those catholics and orthodox, ask her to pray for us if we believe that she is divine? Wouldn't it make more sense in such a case to have asked her something like "forgive us our sins"? The difference between prayer as in asking & praying as in adoration is the intent of the one saying the prayer, something which way beyond your scope of knowledge, but you still presume to inform me that I am praying to Mary! Kindly assume first that people are honest enough, and have enough moral courage to call a spade a spade, before you accuse them of the opposite.

I said before that due to the absence of clear verses I take both your position & mine as basically speculation.

If intercessions of others are unacceptable, then why do the preceding 3 verses say:

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;(1timothy 2 :1-3)
Or the following verses:

- 18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; (Ephesians 6:18)
-Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience (Hebrews 13:18)

Or all the instances when Jesus required the faith of third parties to perform healing miracles like Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55.

You asked :
Why did Paul ask for prayers to be said for him, or James encourage the prayers of the righteous? I can only assume then, that these prayers are not taken as an infringement on Jesus' role as the only mediator between God & man, a role which is unique to him as the Word incarnate and our High priest.We all have a direct personal relationship with God & christ, but also as members of a family, the universal church, the body of Christ we pray for each other.

The main difference, it seems to me, between your position & mine, is the disagreement about the separation of death. I believe that those who die are with Christ alive and aware, part of the body of Christ. Both those who preceded us, and ourselves, are united together in the body of Christ, in a communion of saints, as OTR stated in post # 50 . I can cite some verses which back my point:

-23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better, 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you ( philippians 1:23)

-11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: ( 2timothy 2:11)

-19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. ( ephesians 2:19-22 )

-4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ( ephesians 4: 4-6)

-5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (romans 12:4-5)

-Finally, how can you explain the various apparitions of Mary in different churches all over the world, seen by christians & non christians, unless God allowed her to encourage people & urge them to pray?

When Christ healed the sick on the sabbath, when the apostles did not wash their hands, or fast , he was also told that it was 'unbiblical'. I respect your freedom to believe, have your own conviction; I also hold fast to my conviction. what can I add other than what Paul said :
Goodnight

Well, there is the famous example of the "Sinner's Bible," so called because through some compositor's typographical error Jesus tells the woman taken in adultery to "Go and sin more."

Why didn't God prevent that?

And there have been some exquisitely rotten Bible translations and pseudo-Bibles issued, mainly by pretend-Christian cults.

Why didn't God prevent their publication?

Hi tetisheri, thanks for your responses on this thread. It's good to hear another Catholic version of events. First let me say that I do understand where you are coming from. I understand you mean "pray" as in asking for help from Mary. But can you try and answer the original question for me, please - in practical application, the way you treat Jesus - how is it different to the way you treat Mary?

As i said, I see your point of view, but as a Christian (Protestant) I don't think that Mary can intercede on our behalf, and by doing so she would be usurping Jesus' role as intercessor as portrayed in the Bible. But you as a Christian (Catholic) uphold the tradition of the Church and the authority of the Papacy as of equal importance as the Bible, and it is from here that the prayer to Mary comes from, not from the Bible.

Know what I mean,

That is absolutely and completely WRONG. Very few Christian denominations claim to be the one "true religion". Catholics are one of the few who do. On the basis of the authority of the Papacy, they see themselves as God's sole representative on Earth.

....though I'm not sure about the "Souther Baptist" which from what I can tell hold different ideas than mainline Baptist beliefs.....

I hadn't sounded off on why Catholics pray to Mary; well here goes. This is a document written by the trappist monk Thomas Merton, and his view on the subject:

Why Catholics Pray To Mary



This is often forgotten by Catholics themselves, and therefore it is not surprising that those who are not Catholic often have a completely wrong conception of Catholic devotion to the Mother of God. They imagine, and sometimes we can understand their reasons for doing so, that Catholics treat the Blessed Virgin as an almost divine being in her own right, as if she had some glory, some power, some majesty of her own that placed her on a level with Christ Himself. They regard the Assumption of Mary into heaven as a kind of apotheosis placed in the Redemption would seem to be equal to that of her Son. But this is all completely contrary to the true mind of the Catholic Church. It forgets that Mary's chief glory is in her nothingness, in the fact of being the "Handmaid of the Lord," as one who in becoming the Mother of God acted simply in loving submission to His command, in the pure obedience of faith. She is blessed not because of some mythical pseudo-divine prerogative, but in all her human and womanly limitations as one who has believed. It is the faith and the fidelity of this humble handmaid, "full of grace" that enables her to be the perfect instrument of God, and nothing else but His instrument. The work that was done in her purely the work of God. "He that is mighty hath done great things in me." The glory of Mary is purely and simply the glory of God in her. and she, like anyone else, can say that she has nothing that she has not received from Him through Christ.



As a matter of fact, this is precisely her greatest glory: that having nothing of her own, retaining nothing of a "self" that could glory in any- thing for her own sake, she placed no obstacle to the mercy of God and in no way resisted His love and His will. Hence she received more from Him than any other saint. he was able to accomplish His will perfectly in her, and His liberty was in no way hindered or turned from its purpose by the presence of an egotistical self in Mary. She was and is in the highest sense a person precisely because, being "immaculate," she was free from every taint of selfishness that might obscure God's light in her being. She was then a freedom that obeyed Him perfectly and in this obedience found the fulfill- ment of perfect love.



The genuine significance of Catholic devotion to Mary is to be seen in the light of the Incarnation itself. The Church cannot separate the Son and the Mother. Because the Church conceived of the Incarnation as God's descent into flesh and into time, and His great gift of Himself to His creatures, she also believes that the one who was closest to Him in this great mystery was the one who participated most perfectly in the gift. When a room is heated by an open flame, surely there is nothing strange in the fact that those who stand closest to the fireplace are the ones who are warmest. And when God comes into the world through the instrumentality of one of His servants, then there is nothing surprising about the fact that His chosen instrument should have the greatest and most intimate share in the divine gift.



Mary, who was empty of all egotism, free from all sin, was as pure as the glass of a very clean window that has no other function than to admit the light of the sun (Son). If we rejoice in that light, we implicitly praise the cleanness of the window. And of course it might be argued that in such a case we might well forget the window altogether. This is true. And yet the Son of God, in emptying Himself of His majestic power, having become a child, abandoning Himself in complete dependence to the loving care of a human Mother, in a certain sense draws our attention once again to her. The Light has wished to remind us of the window, because He is grateful to her and because He has an infinitely tender love, it is certainly a great grace and a privilege, and one of the most important aspects of this privilege is that it enables us to some extent to appreciate the mystery of God's great love and respect for His creatures.



That God should assume Mary into heaven is not just a glorification of a "Mother Goddess." Quite the contrary, it is the expression of the divine love for humanity, and a very special manifestation of God's respect for His creatures, His desire to do honor to the beings He has made in His own image, and most particularly His respect for the body which was destined to be the temple of His glory. If Mary is believed to be assumed into heaven, it is because we too are one day, by the grace of God, to dwell where she is. If human nature is glorified in her, it is because God desires it to be glorified in us too, and it is for this reason that His Son, taking flesh, came into the world.



In all the great mystery of Mary, then, one thing remains most clear: that of herself she is nothing, and that God has for our sakes delighted to manifest His glory and His love in her.



It is because she is, of all the saints, the most perfectly poor and the most perfectly hidden, the one who has absolutely nothing whatever that she attempts to possess as her own, that she can most fully communicate to the rest of us the grace of the infinitely selfless God. And we will most truly possess Him when we have emptied ourselves and become poor and hidden as she is, resembling Him by resembling her.



And all our sanctity depends on her maternal love. The ones she desires to share the joy of her own poverty and simplicity, the ones whom she wills to be hidden as she is hidden, are the ones who share her closeness to God.



By: Thomas Merton



-Now in regards to my own opinion, it does seem to me that they view Mary as a sort of intermediary. Now I have the utmost respect for Catholics, and as I noted earlier I actually like going to Catholic church services better than protestant ones. But I do not agree with praying to Mary, or any of the saints for that matter. Yes, all of them, from Mary to Augustine, to hopefully Mother Theresa, the saints should be prominent, honored and exonerated for their service to the faith. So I have no problem with churches being named after saints, or seeing their pictures or statues at them, I'm glad I do. But that is where it ends for me. We don't need intermediaries to get to Jesus or God. I don't need to pray to the patron saint of lost causes because I feel I'm in a hopeless situation and I want him to intervene on my behalf. I go to Jesus. I have no problem saying a Hail Mary; because I feel its honoring her. But I would never pray TO her. Only to God. Its the same thing with going to Confession. Now I like the symbolism of it too, as in, you are confessing your sin to a brother in Christ, and that is an excellent step in the way of repentance, but in my view, in no way are you forgiven a sin by another man. The only way to erase vile deeds or thoughts is to go directly to God for forgiveness, and turn from the action to absolve your karma. A priest saying you are forgiven is not enough.

Flaws aside I love the Catholic church, and I deeply respect all their views and traditions, but I just think the only one we need to be praying to is God Himself. That is what the Bible says. No one, not man, nor priest, nor Mary, nor saint should be expected to answer prayers, nor intercede on your behalf. I think they would actually be deeply disturbed by us praying to them.

In closing, there has been debate as to where "Mother of God" came from and things like this. Well, we all have our differing interpretations of what the Bible actually means, and its all called theology. But what is theology? None of it is truly irrefutable, neither are any of the opposing views necessarily correct or incorrect. The doctrine of opinion, nothing more. John Calvin and Thomas Aquinas are polar opposites, but both of them are considered towering figures in the field. So who is right? Are any of them? What is the point of debating over table scraps? Theology is merely man's feeble attempt to understand a transcendent God; and is the equivalent of a mosquito flying around in space, trying to grasp it all. Our aim should not be to pour over theological doctrines by the Catholics, the Protestants, or anyone else; but to experience a deep, mystical union with God. Clear all of your thoughts, calm your heart and mind, put the ego aside, and come to God, let Him work through you. I guarantee through methods like this you will learn more about God than you could in any theological work, or any church.

So this question arises to me. Are you willing to do it on pure speculation?

I believe they are alive with Christ also. The one thing I will not do, however, is pray to them or ask them to pray for me

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

We should definitely be cautious of such things.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:16-20

Yes, they were confused and upset He would heal on the sabbath and eat unclean. But this was the Lord Christ doing these things. I don't even want to think of what you could possibly be saying regarding that or that you could possibly be comparing yourself to the Lord, who made those laws.

Regarding the verse, you sure butchered that thing. And I can't say I've ever seen anyone quote the bible quite like you do.
Romans 14:5
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 14:23
23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 2timothy2:14

Thank you PA for your kind words, but I'm afraid I will disappoint you: I am not catholic.

I refer to myself only as christian. I come from a mixed family background, I was baptized orthodox, grew up anglican, married catholic, i.e. I'm a 'cross breed'. So, I do not believe in the infallibility of the either the pope or the patriarch. I do not uphold or follow all of the traditions of one church, because I do not believe that any one church has all the answers, or has the right to condemn any of the other churches. Christ had 12 apostles not one, and as Paul said, the body of Christ has different limbs.

That said, I will try to answer your question. What do you mean exactly by "treat Jesus or Mary"? I worship Christ, who, I believe, is the divine Word who became incarnate & died on the cross to redeem us. I believe that he is God the Son, and that the Trinity is one God. I try to follow the first law to love the Lord God with all my heart & soul but this is reserved to God only. I do not see the intercessory role of Christ is in just relaying our prayers to God the Father, but rather mainly in dying on the cross in penance for our sins. He said to 'ask in my name' which I do, and i think even Mary does. That is why for me the concept of Mary, or anyone, usurping the intercessory role of Jesus is impossible. I pray ( as in worship) to Jesus all the time , I kind of talk to him , give him a running commentary of my life. I do not do that with Mary, but sometimes when I have a problem I ask her to add her prayers to mine. I do so believing that she will pray with me & that her prayers will be heard because Jesus honored his mother, because the Lord is with her, and blessed her. The bible says that she interceded in the marriage of Cana and Jesus listened to her request & performed his first miracle. However, I do NOT believe that my prayers will be ignored unless I ask for Mary's help. I see her as a God-Mother, a very gentle god-mother , who out of love for God and man, is always trying to urge people to pray more and come closer to Jesus. I might light a candle for her as a symbolic gesture, but as I do not see how I can light a candle to the creator of the universe, I pray only.

Reverence ( as in showing deferential honor) to Mary is older than the Papacy, and is not restricted to the catholic church. I sometimes think that the reformation churches had such a severe reaction to the papacy, that there are cases when they tend to go the very extreme opposite position. If all intercessory prayers are infringements on Christ's role as our mediator, then why did Paul, James ask for them? Will God listen to our intercessory prayers here in this life, but ignore those of the sanctified standing in his presence? what was Mary's role in the miracle of Cana wedding & why was it mentioned at all in the bible? Some protestants, but not all, go so far as to try to dismiss her as just 'Sue-Ann' from next door. She is the 'highly favored', who was 'overshadowed by the power of the Highest' , the 'blessed among women' who 'will be called blessed by all generations'; the mother of God incarnate. Her role neither conflicts nor competes with Jesus the mediator.

I think you're being a little hard on Catholic Church here. When Catholics say that there's no salvation outside the Catholic Church they're using the word "Catholic" in its original sense of "Universal" - "the Church Universal and Triumphant." That means the ENTIRE body of Christendom, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Quakers, Presbyterians very much included.

Since the Southern Baptists are far-and-away the largest single Baptist (and Protestant, too) denomination in North America, and perhaps in the entire world, can you please define your meaning of "mainline"?

Billy Graham is a Southern Baptist and he is usually defined as a mainline Protestant.

Ouch Bleach! I couldn't make up my mind to laugh or get angry. And you say you're not judgmental? Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Anyway, do you think Jesus was acting out of whim, or was there a message behind all that? Could it be maybe 'the sabbath was made for man & not man for the sabbath'? That by concentrating too much on the literal reading one can be in danger of missing the message? That one should strive to be honest with God & himself, and at the same time accept that others are doing the same, even if the choices they make are different.

This is why I chose the verses which were "butchered".

Their message goes beyond sacred days & eating meat ( that's why I replaced these words with dots). You read the bible as saying Mary's intercessory prayers are 'unacceptable' or 'unbiblical'; I read the bible as saying intercessory prayers of the saints are accepted, and that Mary is honored & blessed & her intercession started with the wedding of Cana. For me this is biblical & acceptable. Neither you nor I can play God & judge the other, can you leave it at that without aiming harsh boulder words at me?
Now it's so late, my goodnight almost became good morning !

I find that the 'judgmental' card is commonly, fast to be played. I never really applied a meaning to your words. Instead, here we have a platform for you to explain them.

I don't even want to think of what you could possibly be saying regarding that or that you could possibly be comparing yourself to the Lord, who made those laws.

Regarding the verse, you sure butchered that thing. And I can't say I've ever seen anyone quote the bible quite like you do.

I am willing to cease involvement if you wish. I promise, not a post more from me here.

God bless.

Let me answer with some questions:

Do you not believe that God had influence of the bible in any way?
Do you think God would allow some untruths to slip into the bible?
Do you think God would allow important information to be stripped/left out?

If so, I think you severely underestimate the power of God.

Your first question amounts to whether I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired. No.
Having said that, yes, some untruths have slipped into the Bible.
Finally, has some information been omitted. Yes.

The Bible is the product of men. I cannot believe that God influenced the vote of the 300+ bishops deciding what should appear or be taken out of the book in which the gospels cannot even agree on Jesus' last words.

But no, I do not believe God would permit such things and for that exact reason I do not accept the man-produced Bible. God does not need a book, especially a book that has been corrupted countless times by early church monks serving their own doctrine, by fanatics who openly stated they deleted what did not serve the "faith" and the more than 200 translation errors that litter its pages.

If you do not believe that the Bible was so corrupted, you underestimate the power of men.

I agree completely with the monk. Did anyone read this carefully?

We obviously don't but the fact remains that they all share the same essential doctrines regarding salvation through Jesus Christ. That's the point I was attempting to make.



When and where have Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodsits, Baptists and so on claimed to be "the [one] true religion"? I must have been out of the room.



On salvation through Jesus Christ, which is surely the name of the Christian game, they are indeed all right, because they all say the same thing regarding that matter, the only important one. That, again, is the point i was attempting to make.

Are these widely distributed?

Sinner's bible - ..most of the copies were recalled immediately. Only 11 copies are known to exist today.

If they say the same thing ,why all the different sects .What differentiates between the sects .How would I know I was in say a Lutheran service as opposed to a Baptists service..I contend that they are not all the same ,they all have their own take on the bible and rather than be together they are all competing against one another in offering their own particular brand of salvation

Certainly. The New World Bible, for just one example out of many. Uncounted MILLIONS of copies circulated around the world, in a couple of hundred languages and dialects. On tape recordings and audio discs. In Braille. And FREE for the asking.

Then there's OASPHE and THE URANTIA BOOK and THE AQUARIAN GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and THE ARCHKO VOLUME. Most Christians would probably add THE BOOK OF MORMON. And that's just the start of the list.



So how come God "goofed" on those 11 copies? My God is a PERFECT God who doesn't lose count of 11 atoms, much less 11 books.