Whatever you and your wife went through, I am sure was very tough. And from the sound of your post I am sure you did not take the option lightly and you did what you felt like you had to. I hope you both are doing well.

But to many people are not like you, they are having sex beliving that nothing will happen to them and if it does well then they can "get it taken care of"

I have always been against abortion strongly. But if it a situation that will save the mom, then it is a very personal choice that I would not wish on anyone.

But what is wrong with abortion only being legal for those uniqe situations, and not readily available for every one who just want to murder their offspring. So they can still party and keep thier figure.

All cells live and breath. Stupid argument. A zygote is a human being, but is not a "child" or a "baby" or even a fetus.

The theory that consciousness is put into the potential life at fertilisation is ridiculous. A zygote cannot possibly have consciousness. That's what you call rediculous.

The moment a child is born it is a baby.

Before then it's a fetus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus

"A fetus (or foetus or fœtus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth."

Doctors are not perfect, I was told I would never ever have a child but I did and In my opinion God does not make mistakes the Dr may tell you that a child will be deformed or very ill but they don't know for sure till the baby is born. God put that child there for a reason we may not understand the reason or may never know why but there is a reason. We go through terrible horrible things and having a sick child or worse losing one is the absolute worst but again there is a reason for it. I lost a child and to this day it hurts like it did the day it happened and I don't know what God's reasoning was but I have to trust that He does have one. I do have a wonderful perfect son and two beautiful little girls that came after I lost the baby, maybe thats the blessing there I do not know but trust God does.
I do understand that the Dr's today can see on ultra sounds and such if the baby is deformed or ill and by NO MEANS are putting down your obvious incredibly sad situation Wolfknight, I know it must have been a very hard decision and like you I would not wish that situation on anyone. I just believe God has his reasons why he makes certain children the way they are and we should learn from it and the children. In my opinion God does not make mistakes or junk.
God makes these special children for a reason. My cousin has cerebral palsy and is and has been wheelchair bound for his entire life and today he is 27 years old and works at walmart, he is the most sweet incredibly smart young man and I can't imagine not having him around. The Dr's told my aunt to abort because he was deformed in there opinion and she refused to and she ended up with the most special person. God does not give us more than we can handle.
I am so sorry that you and your wife had to go through that wolfknight, and I am not ridiculing your decision at all I am just sharing my opinion.
Some my think they are not equipped to handle such a situation but when the need arises your heart will tell you what is right.
I think we put to much stock into what Dr's say today, we have so many resources and ways of researching and learning about these kinds of things today that we should not put all our faith in the Dr's alone.


Always a pleasure

We obviously disagree but I will say again that the moment the child is conceived it is a baby. I living breathing human being who wants to live.
You yourself was once a baby in your moms womb and have grown, so are you a living breathing human being. You can't argue that now can you. All life starts somewhere and it doesn't matter what you call it it is life.
At the time of conception that child is already a baby that is growing just like you did.

Always a pleasure

Edited to add, the stupid argument here is that you assume that life is not started at the moment of conception. Take a look in the mirror you started out he same exact way and your a living breathing human being that to this day is still growing. Just because the child isn't fully grown does not man it is not a human life!

I would tend to agree. these "potential lifes" would be actual lives if left well-enough alone (barring miscarriage or accident, obviously). If my parents had chosen abortion, then my "potential life" would have ceased to exist before it even began.

I really don't like the term "stupid", even if it is referring to an argument and not a person. Particularly on this section of the forums which is designed for constructive discussion and not debate, labelling anything as "stupid" always seems to lead to further arguing. By all means, sandee, feel free to disagree with these people, but I would ask that you refrain from making this unnecessarily personal, considering that they probably think it just as "stupid" that you believe a bunch of semi-randomised cells is equivalent to a human being.

thanks for your cooperation

It was a very rough choice to make. There was a lot of issues going on and none were positive. This is my last post on this thread!

My apologies PA, I was referring to his argument that my view was stupid. You are right of course no need putting the word in when it is not needed and will cause further argument.
I do my best not to make others feel their beliefs are any less valid than mine but to err is human . I will refrain from using that word in the future.

Always a pleasure

Edited because I forgot to pink.

It is not a fully formed organism and it is not self sustaining. In the period when an abortion is allowed the foetus is not a human, it is still a potential human.

If we go in the suing for potential life lost are we going to ban sex for recreational purposes? That is potential life lost too is it not, as is menstruation and masturbation when you get down to the most basic level. It really is not the same as the case above is it.

Potential where life is already begun.

Still not yet human.

I personally hate how people say that your baby wants to be born. That you are denying your child life. If this is the case, every month that I don't get pregnant I deny my 'child' life. I guiltlessly terminate an egg that ripened with the purpose of becoming fertilized and babified. Add a sperm and let it fall out the same path THEN it's a controversy. Baby of fetus, call it what you want, but in that first trimester they don't have the mental ability to even decide whether or not they want anything.

Innocent? Yes. But so is that tapeworm that's found it's way into you, and you have no problem getting THAT out. Yes, I am comparing unwanted pregnancies to unwanted parasites.

And is a baby/fetus/whateveryouchoosetocallit alive? Sure, it's heart may have started beating but I believe that one time in science class we were discussing the difference between a virus and bacteria. Bacteria is alive, yet viruses are not, because they would not be able to survive without a host. People would argue that's irrelevent. Yet people argue that anything not human is really inferior. Incomparable. You can compare a chicken to a cat, but not a cat to a human.

No, I don't believe in god. I don't believe in any super being. Please don't pray for me, because I don't believe in heaven or hell, and I don't favor the idea of going to either. Eternity is a long time to have to put up with yourself. I don't have anything against Christians, but I think the idea that some of them are going to such extremes as to BOMB abortion clinics is horrible. You can kill people who already have a life, a family... in defense for a fetus that has nothing to lose. People need to keep their morals to themselves, and not try to force them on other people. This baby that you're trying to force birth upon? When will YOU know it? When will YOU have any thing to do with it? If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. But don't impose on other people's lives.

And I know that my parents could have gotten an abortion for me. I'm thankful that they didn't. But if they had, I wouldn't really be in a situation to care. It's as simple as that.

A fetus is a baby from the moment that its conceived. I do not beleive that GOD gives a child a illness,deformation or any terminal medical problem. What GOD would do this to a child. It is a very sad and a unhappy ending for many and I beleive that it is a medical issue caused by who knows......man? The choice is up to you,the parents of that baby to make a very heartbreaking decision.

Ok, abortion, lets see the reason for it. If the womans life is in danger, by contiuation of pregnancy and birth of the child, then its ok, to preserve her life. But if its for reason such as, well i need to think about my career, what people will say, i cant have a life of my own once i have a baby, i cant complete my education etc. You getting the picture, these are selfish people, who only think about themselves, as they were doing when enjoying sex, irresponsibly, and now they cannot deal with the consequence. You also hear, about young woman having abortions, because they are not ready to have a child, yet they are ready to have irresponsible sex with as many partners as possible, but at the same time not capable of bring a child up, well dont have sex irresponsibly then. As an excuse the latter sucks, look at the number of teenage mothers in the world, yes they at a young age have to deal with alot, take care of child etc, but they do it and most of them are good mothers.

Abortion can be done in extreme exceptions, not for selfish reason, well, most of the world and the people today are selfish, surivival of the fittest, capatalism at its unethical best.

Yu thankful your parents dint kill you before you were born, maybe they should have since you and all of us according to you are parasites. To compare a tape worm to a baby in the womb is sick and sad, and shows your selfish nature. You dont wanna child dont have one, but to equate a baby in the womb to a parasite is sad. We have sex for pleasure, love and procreation, the latter is very important.

Bombing the clinics is wrong, as it is to equate a virus to a baby. You cannot compare cats to humans, when was the last time, cat was sat next to you at uni, or carrying out an abortion, yes humans are superior, this does not mean we dont respect other life, we respect all life, including the unborn child in a womb, which through mordern science one can clearly see that its not just a heart beating, but smile, emotions, feeling, hunger, movement etc. All the same things you do, but in a smaller scale.

Personally i think your a sad person to equate babies to viruses this is not a personal attack at you, but i have sympathy for your state of mind, as its blissfully ignorant.

Thats not the case, we are talking about a child that has already been concieved not imaganary babies here. And your child does want to be born otherwise you would miscarry, I don't get how someone could deny an innocent child to be born after all your actions are the ones who brought the child to life to begin with.

That is a very sad comparison you make here, tapeworms and babies are VERY DIFFERENT! ! What kind of person makes that comparison?

Very true and to the point! Its been awhile glad to see ya Ozi.


Always a pleasure

He wouldn't have noticed anyway to be fair.

The thing is it is not a baby, a foetus and a baby are not the same thing. You have to be born to be a baby.
The foetus doesn't want anything, it is not developed enough to want.

A human baby and a tapeworm hmmmmm lets see......HELLO 2 humans know that if there is no protection to avoid getting pregnant chances are thats what's going to happen...pregnant. Humans know this. Now a tapeworm...? You dont know when or how you pick one of them up its not like going on the pill or putting on a raincoat (condom) is going to protect you from a TAPEWORM!!!! Boy I cant belive you even went there.

People are so irrational on both sides. The issue is so simple but no one seems to think logically. Pro-lifers call aborting a fetus murder, when it isn't alive... and many pro-choicers say it's a choice when it is alive. The argument was used in the OP that conservatives are against government interference, but want to ban abortion. They also want to ban murder. It isn't an issue of government interference, it's one of the definition of a life. In my oppinion, once the fetus develops consciousness, it is alive. It is only a matter of time before we know when this is, and it's only a matter of time before extremists on both sides lose this fight.

As for those who suggest that partial-birth and full birth abortion are not morally wrong because the child is merely a parasite, might I remind you that there are many humans who fall under the definition of a parasite. It can also be argued whether the child is a parasite.

I'd consider it a baby once it has developed concsiousness.

You could argue that is something that doesn't even truly happen till after you are born though. That is the problem in such a case.

I would not consider it a baby till it was born. But I think that abortions should not be allowed after the first trimester.

Then we're in agreement.

True, but the mother isn't intentionally killing the child; it's just how she's used to living. What if she doesn't know that smoking, drinking, or doing drugs could harm and kill her child? Is it her fault then? And if not, then how can one say that an accidental, unintentional pregnancy that has to be remedied via abortion is any different? Both are accidents that end up in the death of a child, so both either have to have the same end result, or both will be okay. Knowing that lifestyle harms your child and could kill it is a different story, just as being overly promiscuous is different than accidental pregnancy. Accidents happen, and I'd hope a loving being like God would be able to comprehend that.

If he's referring to knowing us before we're born, that doesn't explain why miscarriages happen in the first place. Only about 50% of fertilized eggs develop into children, so does God just not care about the other 50%? Are they just nothing to him? Why make life at all if it's just going to die anyway? As to knowing us before we are conceived, how could God know someone before they exist? If he knows them before they exist then why exist at all? If God knows everyone before they exist and knows what they're going to do in life and what happens to them, life is pointless. Life has no meaning if God already knows what's going to happen. That's like creating a culture of bacteria to test an experiment that you already know the results of and expecting something else to happen, which is considered a symptom of insanity, btw.

yet again it seems like no one bothers reading my posts, I understand that their are parents out there who want to adopt, but there are more babies being put into the adoption system then are being adopted...

Babies are not very big at all until a few months after pregnancy. One days five the group of cells that are the embryo, or blastocyst, implant themselves into the uterine wall. This group of cells is only a few hundred in number, and is still encased within the zona, or hard covering of the egg. During the next day or so the embryo breaks from the zona and begins to expand now that it has more room to grow. Right now the embryo is merely 0.1-0.2 MILLIMETERS in length. That's barely the size of a poppy seed. I honestly don't see that as being a human being. For the next few weeks the embryo continues to slowly grow and the cells multiply to form the fetus. Even by day 25 the fetus is no more than 3 millimeters long. From day 20-25 the heart begins to form and has small bursts of peristalsis, or muscular contractions, of this newly forming organ, but this is NOT the beating of a true heart because it has not fully developed and the cardiovascular system has yet to be fully developed. Blood vessels are not formed by this time, nor is the heart fully functional. By this time the nervous system is the most developed system of the embryo, BUT the embryo is NOT conscious at this time. Consciousness is defined in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary as:


"Main Entry:
con·scious·ness
Pronunciation:
\-nəs\
Function:
noun
Date:
1629
1 a: the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b: the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c: awareness; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3: the totality of conscious states of an individual
4: the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5: the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes"

So in order to be conscious one has to be aware of oneself and/or one's environment. In the first trimester the growing embryo is not aware of either, therefore, by logical definition, we cannot consider an embryo to be a conscious, living human. Primitive brain waves (delta is the first brain wave to be recognized in fetuses) do not equate to consciousness. Yes, the embryo has a nervous system. A nervous system does not make an organism the equal status of a fully developed organism of that same species. Would you say that a developing rabbit is the same as a fully grown rabbit? No. Would you say a developing puppy is the same as an adult dog and should be treated as such? No. Why? We are detached from animals in relation to our own personal lives and problems. We would not say a rat embryo has the same value as a human embryo. Why not? They're both mammals, both are incredibly similar in their fetal development, both have an ancient common ancestor, both are on the "high intelligence" side of the animal kingdom (rats have been speculated to be smarter than dolphins even, and are far more intelligent than dogs or cats), so why do we view one as less than the other, even when they haven't even been born? If someone suggested a rat get an abortion, no one would look twice to say, oh wait, that rat's unborn children have the right to live, because we emotionally detach ourselves from other animals. If we're going to say that a human fetus is as important as a fetus, we have to be able to say that about animals, insects, and even plants as well. They need to have the same rights as the adult animals because, like it or not, humans are animals too and we cannot view our fellow beings as being merely dispensable. If a dog has a miscarriage does anyone care? Not particularly, but if a human has a miscarriage? it's the end of the world. To say that a fetus is as important as a living, adult human is to change the very outlook of ALL life, not just human ones.

Anyway, animal-activist rant aside, at 10-12 weeks, the developing fetus is still only one and one fourth of an inch long. That's about two small jelly beans, or one big one. I personally find it strange that we would give a jelly bean-sized, unconscious parasite (yes, the fetus feeds off of the mother so it could, in effect, be considered a parasite of sorts) more rights than we do to dogs, cats, birds, and other animals. I just don't see how that's fair at all. Are we SO arrogant that we give a barely inch-long piece of growing tissue the right to live no matter the consequences when we euthanize dogs at the pound simply because they've been there for a week and no one has claimed them? How in the WORLD is that fair? We would give an unborn child absolute life, but kill animals simply because we can? But, I digress. At 18-19 weeks of age, the fetus starts to have patterns of sleep, which would suggest a switch between primitive brain waves (mainly deep-delta, lesser-delta, and possibly theta). Again, this does NOT by any means suggest the child has a consciousness. At this time in the pregnancy the fetus is still merely 5-5.5 inches long. That's not big at all. Premature babies are only slightly bigger than this, and if you've ever seen an extremely premature child that's actually survived being expelled from the womb at this age, it makes you want to cry because the thing is so utterly helpless. If it isn't kept in a suitable, stable, sterile environment it will die within minutes. And even then, it could still die with the slightest of temperature changes. Is this a point where we could consider the possibility of consciousness? Perhaps. I'm fairly certain that abortions are not performed this late in the pregnancy, at least not around where I live. I believe this is called partial-birth abortion, though, and is usually performed in the third trimester. If it's that far along I really don't see any point in not giving birth to the baby when it will be able to live. Utterly pointless, I say. Anyway, once the fetus is able to hear and react to it's environment in the womb, I suppose one could argue that it's conscious. HOWEVER, can any of us remember what it was like to be in the womb? Or to be an extremely young child even (infant)? Don't you think that if we were conscious during fetal development we would remember it?

Spiritis pure consciousness, Minus a body, Spirit is eternal.

Love Omnaka

Why wouldnt he have noticed?

by sandee:

Here it goes again. What about the father's inconvenience for him playing as well? Nothing. You know something, a lot of the times, it's more him, than her, from my point of view. Why does she have to hold the whole burden for it, she didn't get pregnant asexually!!!?!?

Are we always going to talk about sexual relationships as 'playing', and 'for a little fun', and other stupid innuendos?? It's always said in this way, on the side of the women. I'm getting sick of this, I think we should all know better. It's both mother and father, and if she is being treated this way, so should him!!! If she is being raped, is she still 'playing'?? Of course not, but she still can get pregnant, and still partake in an abortion. There are some who 'play', but bear in mind, it takes two to make a baby, so it should take two to suffer the consequences if you want to view it that way. It's not that simple. I'm not voicing my pro or anti life thing here, I'm talking pro-responsiblity by both genders by everyone here. The way I see, maybe that is why abortion is still very controversal today, because it seems a lot are having a hard time viewing who and how many are really taking part and how they are being treated. Let's be real about this, then I think we can understand both sides on this.

I really do not think that is a given, because I think you do not have proof, that your soul actually started from day one. Who is to say, that it was someone else's soul, and they got bounced out, and your's got pushed in? That may sound ridiculous, but what if that was true, there is not way to not disprove it, is there? I don't think there is much proof to know actually what really happens in the inner spiritual workings of each unborn. It's all speculative I think.

Somebody in my family miscarried, and it was found out that the round batch, the word escapes me, that normally would have a child growing in it, wasn't there. The part that encloses it was, and it was still a miscarriage. If it didn't miscarry, what would have happened, would it still be a person? What if it was aborted, would it still be considered bad?

Its too bad The fathers of The Babys, unwanted By the mothers don't have a say in what the mother is wanting to do, by Law Yet if the mother has a Baby The father is held responsible??

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against being responsible for the child, But Know there are Many Men who would raise a child on his own, if the mother would only have it, creating a Guilt on the man, because there was nothing he could do to prevent it.

Love Omnaka

Well he'd have never have been to do so.

I don't think those who fight to preserve life can ever Loose this Fight,They Fight for Goodness and creation, something Positive. depending on how they fight it, ( Killing to stop Killing , Only creates More o0f the same)

And if those who are Pro killing and Destruction of Life , Well It is not creation, or positive is it.

L'chaim

Love Omnaka

That is very much a matter of opinion.

Don't make me start a poll,

Pro life= Creation, Life, acountability and something Positive.Making a baby can continue creation and on and On

Pro killing, destruction of life= Taking Of life, Destruction, and something negative. Abortion stops Creation, To a screeching halt .

Life and Love is the only force able to create.

The negative can only steal what life and love have created,

Love Omnaka

And again that is just opinion and a poll would show nothing other than opinion.
Actually that is not true either, chemical reactions can create and love is potentially extremely destructive emotion.

Not here and not in the US. More and more teens opt to keep their babies, if they continue with their pregnancies. There are long waiting lists. In Nova Scotia, I believe the wait is about 12 years. So If you are talking Canada and the US, those are the only two I know of. Other than that, people are going overseas, which is costly and risky, and heartbreaking sometimes.

-SNIP-

Lady, as always, I love your posts.

Agree on seperation of church and state.
Babalon.
I am nither here or there I am just.

The comparison of a tapeworm with a human was indeed unimaginable. I was so shocked to hear that. Also, when we start saying that there is no life in in a human when they are not conscious; are you saying that I can kill someone who is unconscious and claim "hey they were not aware at the time". Or can I go to the home where someone takes care of a mentally challenged person who is not totally aware of what's around them and kill them because I felt they weren't human simply because they were not aware?
This is why us Pro-Lifers fight for this cause. First, because we believe in the right to life even to those that cannot speak for themselves.
Second, because we know that this idea that people can make a decision for another as to weather they can live or not can and will spread.
Hitler didn't think that Jews should live. He saw them as inhuman so that was his justification for killing them without regard or guilt.
I see the same thing happening today. People are truely believing that a baby that is living within the womb is not a human. They keep telling themselves that in hopes of erasing guilt when an abortion occurs.

Let me ask you Pro-Choicers. Why do you fight so hard to give a woman the "right to choose". Why do you call it that? Why don't you call it the right to an abortion? Are you yourselves guilty deep down and can't utter the word abortion too often?

Why get confrontational? We are having a peaceful (for the most part) discussion and most views have been said already. There is a dead horse being beaten right about now.

I have four kids. Glad to have them. Two were "surprises". Had I not been married (I am separated now but I guess it doesn't matter now) I would have been glad for the choice. I am not sure that I could go through with abortion, but thinking back to my physical job and my ailment, I am not sure at this point if I could look after four kids and carry a child. I'm in agony right now. Shouldn't that be my choice?

Quite simply put: Abortion is an extreme waste of resources...

Conception requires many, many variables:
1) Desire;
2) Probabilistic (or accidental) meeting of a viable sperm with a viable ovum;
3) Lack of foresight (as to the desire) to procreate;
4) Erroneous mental concept of the means/methodology to procreate;
5) "Irrational exuberance;"
6) etc.

Nothing wrong with sex, per se. Something majorly incorrect about these attempts to reconcile bad judgment with termination of a viable human person.

Having said that, a woman has the ultimate right to choose the use of her body for whatever reason. It's a tough dilemma!

Bottom line, the human physique is engineered to procreate after the age of 14 (on average). Hell, I figure Biblical age females (and Medieval-aged [and up to the 20th Century] females) were making babies from 14 and up! But they had the endorsement of society.

Today, Western society expects 30+ year-olds to make babies. Personally, I do not believe that this is biologically correct. Women, or young women and Men and young men are engineered to produce offspring far earlier! How can society's rules force a disjunct of the biological imperative? -It seems that we use abortion as the means!

And abortion is a waste of resources!

Perhaps these people who live on the communes actually have figured out the correct course of the matter! [And I am in no way suggesting that 40+ year old men should be making babies with 14 year old girls.] Rather, I am suggesting that nature provides for 16 year-old males to marry 14 year-old young women. (Because women mature [physically and emotionally] earlier than boys.). 20th Century society and social precepts have turned on this natural prerogative and abortion is the result of this obfuscation...

I do see what you're saying, Lady O, but what it comes down to is, that if left on its own, the baby will grow and be born. Whatever life a child might have had was lost because someone decided it was inconvenient. Throwing in arguments about miscarriages is a Red Herring - miscarriages are not planned, nor does the fact they happen thus mean we should have the Right to willingly terminate life (though the implications of 50% of pregnancies ending in a dead child may be worth a thread on its own).

But the clincher of astonishing comments I read was in your final sentence/s (quoted above). Can anyone of us remember what it was like to be in the womb? Of course not, so we cannot say that we were "conscious" during foetal development. But by the same token, does anyone remember being in the hospital treatment ward the day after they were born? that means they weren't conscious then either and by your own argument, we could kill newborn babes and still not consider it murder.

Why to you think the moment a human is conceived it is a baby? What reasoning do you have to come to this *snip* conclusion?
Like I said, the sperm, egg and zygote cells are living and breathing. What's the difference between ANY cell and a fully formed animal if the only way you can describe such a thing is "living and breathing"?
I myself was once a sperm and egg cell by that logic. And that is just silly.
The point is, no... the life you are thinking of doesn't "start somewhere" that we can place our finger on. Because you can go back as far as you like. Fertalisation is NOT a logical place to think it "starts". I agree, that by the time a baby is born... It's been a "baby" for a long time. Visually, mentally... All of those things. But if you really think the below images are of babies, then.... *snip*.
At the time the sperm and egg cells are formed, they are already the potential for a baby that is growing just like you did. *SNIP It's not a concious human being.

by Omnaka:

I see this as fair just cause. It's his child, and his responsible, but the fact that many fathers abandon the mothers, it seems understandable that they leave it to just the mother. If a lot of men, were just as responsible, and just as held to a higher scrutney that I see the women held to, maybe there were be less unwanted pregnancies to worry about.

One, I know there are a lot of men who would do this. But, as the mother should have considered the consequences of her acts, so should he. Where is his understanding of what the mother goes through when she has the long pregnancy and painful labor? It's usually the men who do most of the instigating, yet it's mostly held on the mother. A man, who wants to but cannot raise his child because the women refused should have realized this consequence when he partaked in a relationship with a woman.

Granted, no one thinks of these things, it just happens, but what gets me, is no one holds everyone responsible afterwards, or that all parties should be advised where they should be held responsible when they start something. I think the controversy of abortion is a side result to a lot avoiding where the attention should go to, and it seems there is a refusal to hold both men and women responsible.

Also one sided thinking on a party, is another thing, I see being responsible for this controversy. There is more to this, and a lot of name calling of what is not really in this picture.

by Markissluv:
For one, there is really no real proof, that you can provide to show that it's actually life. I'm not saying others can prove against you, and I'm not saying either way, but I know that this is a topic, whether there is sentience within stages of an unborn, that seems to never have a foregone conclusion.
Also, there are also a lot of situations, that Pro-lifers can help as well, to help with the lives of others. If you want to save an unborn's life, to be born, will you help out to ensure it has a happy and safe life?

Where do you see that? Just curious. Plus, have some of them shown some backup and sources to show their thoughts?
Where is your proof that you are correct? Where are your sources?

Or is this still, what others will say in hope that an example or hypethetical reasoning will make someone believe?

by Paranoid Android:
You brought an interested thought here, and I'm not sure if it fits on one side or the other, or both. An interesting thought nevertheless. Plus, myself not remember a full twelve hours after recieving a concusion in a car accident, doesn't mean I wasn't awake, not at all, my husband and a friend at the time, said I was awake, asking questions, and communicating. Ok, I was doing a lot of talking about my cat fluffy, and and.............I never had a cat named Fluffy. But if we go way back to the before and after conception, how is it there might be sentient life in a new concieved cell, when just before it a short time earlier, there was nothing to say there is sentient life. Just something that we say holds it, but there is not proof to that, is there?

ON your note of what you are talking about HAJiME, I find this interesting, and looking at the picture of the sperm about to enter egg, what about them as seperate entities. Where does the soul came from, if you have a souless sperm, and a souless egg, but then you have a soul within the newly formed cell? I wonder at that, and I know there is no answer for me.

Agreed. This is basically a different angle of what I said before.

Its more than just a baby human . At that instant it IS a human being.
Thats a simple logical exercise. I dont remember all the technical terms, but the sperm and the egg each have potential for creating human life (general) Put any two together and you have a new life (specific). Not put them together and you do not have a new human life.

However the instant an egg is fertilised by a particular sperm, than one very particular and individual human being has just been created. With luck ,and without any intervention, it WILL INEVITABLY grow into one particular individual human being. Its physical and, to a large extent, other characteristics, are determined by the genetic code carried into it from the two parents. Thus it is one particular unique, and brand new, human from the instant of conception.

That one particular human being is the one being terminated (actually a good word because that is what it does, terminate the life growth, development and future of one particular unique human being)

I can understand people who cannot see this, accepting abortion. Sadly i think there are some who do see things as they are, and still favour, or proceed with abortions, for a variety of reasons.

My own views aside , since I've never found myself pregnate ! but I won't take away someone's choice .

until you find yourself in that situation. you never know how it feels. so many here anti abortion and male. yet never had to really deal with it.

You are quite right in a way lt ripley, and not being a female i will never be in the position to appreciate it from a woman's viewpoint.

However whether some thing is right/wrong, ethically correct or ethically indefensible is not dependent on ones gender, and there are also many women who hold the position that abortion is a moral wrong.

People need to develop and maintain ethical positions whether or not an issue affects them personally. Then when it does affect them they are more likely to act on that thought out principle, rather than on the personal pressures of the time.

My parents taught me to do what i believed was right, even if that came at considerable personal cost. I have always found that principle to operate well in practice. Sadly, in my opinion, values like that have all but disappeared from society today.

If that opinion again makes you think that i see myself as superior to others, ask yourself what makes you feel that way.

yea the reason for that is people want babies not kids, the system is overflowing because people don't want to deal with a teenager, or older child, they all want babies, its people being picky and just wanting babies....and thats funny because I'm from Canada and the wait here is 1-3 years.

Bottom line of any argument, pro life or pro-choice is, no one has the right to tell others about what to do with their body, regardless if you agree with abortion or not, its not your life, you don't have to live with the consequence of what you choose. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby she'll do what she can to not have the child, regardless if its legal or not.