But why is your bottom line not that no one has the right to take another life, even if it is one temporarilly attached to an adult human? That is a much more significant principle, and bottom line, than the right of an individual to act as they wish.

You are correct with the second half of the statement, but that is not a reason to endorse abortion, but to work to change society so that women are never so desparate that they would risk their lives to have an illegal abortion.
And if it simply a matter of wanting, rather then really needing, an abortion, then no, i can never see that a woman has such a natural right.
Society, and individuals, set lots of rules about what individuals can and cant do, even when the consequences of those decisions do not impact on the ones making the rules.

Why should the issue of abortion be treated any differently?

I just hope that all those people arguing that in a non religious society, humanity can maintain a standard of ethical behaviour and improve human nature through science and education are correct, because in my view a truly humane and compassionate society would allow abortion only in quite limited conditions such as the risk of harm or death to the mother. As it stands, abortion is one of the greatest condemnations of the values and ethics of modern western society, along with the abuse of young children and of women.

We are failing the very people whom a properly structured society should be designed to protect, ie the most vulnerable.

I understand that its sometimes hard for a male to see it from a female perspective, I understand some women are against abortion, thats fine. I never said I completely endorse it, but I agree with the fact that it should be made legal thats why I'm pro-CHOICE, in my previous threads I have stated that this wouldn't be such a big issue if there was more sex education, I understand that some parents don't approve of kids learning about safe sex practices, but it is necessary so it doesn't have to go to the point of abortion, I have also state as well that not all safe sex practices are 100%. I, myself am on the pill, I am very aware of the fact its not 100% effective, my mom even got pregnant with me while she was on the pill. If you look through history you'll see abortion has been around for a very long time, i.e specific herbs can cause or help along miscarriage, or even so there are such things as back alley butcher shops where most women who wanted an abortion would go, and mabey come out ok, but most would be maimed, bleed to death, permanently scarred or never be able to have kids again. I want you to think for a second how you would feel say if your daughter, or wife, didn't have the choice to go to a clinic to have an abortion, and went to a back ally shop and had an abortion that way, where they died. I'm sure then you'd be wishing it was legal to where she could have gone to a clean, safe area to have the abortion, and came out alive...The reason why my bottom line was that no one should tell another what to do with their body was this, you tell a women not to have an abortion, why don't you take away the rest of her rights, like, what a women can and can't eat, or when they can go out into the sun because hey don't you know you can get Cancer that way, why let anyone have a choice in what they do, I understand that there are such things as adoption, but it takes a very strong women to be able to do that, I know I would have a heck of a harder time giving a child up for adoption that I carried for nine months then gave birth to, only to give it up, honestly everyone is different, people deal with things differently, it would be a sad thing to kick us back a few century's to the time of back-alley butcher shops, its not necessary. I applaude you for stepping up and questioning what I say, but I also think you should read further back to my posts where I make very good points on why abortion is legal and should stay that way.

In practical terms, given how society is, then yes some abortion (but not simple abortion on demand) probably does need to be legal to prevent greater ills. However. it should never be accepted as right and all efforts should be put into making society a place where it is not necessary rather than allowing the nature of curent society to force people to make a choice which basically terminates another human being.

My belief is neither one of ignorance, nor based on religious beliefs. I am among other things, a history teacher and avid reader. I am well aware of the social conditions of women from most ages on earth.

I just dont accept that for economic or social reasons a woman has the right to terminate another human life. It may, tragically, sometimes be a necessity, but it should never ever be perceived as a right, because it intrinsically puts an end to another human beings most basic right to life, and no ones right to wealth, education, or even happiness, overrides another persons right to life (and all that encompasses)

And yes it is a limitation but also a positive facet of my nature that i cannot envisage my wife or daughter ever requiring an abortion. The one exception would be if the child had no potential to ever develop into a human being, because it was so deformed that its brain did not function.

In all other cases i would either take the child, love it, and care for it as a human being or ensure that once it was born it was looked after by people who loved it and cared for it as a human being. If this meant giving up my job and going on"welfare"or having a lot of other people living in my house and supporting them , then i know what i would do, because i have faced similar situations in the past and made those choices .

Life is not about what we have, but who we are as people, and personally i could not live with myself if i made any other decision.

I appreciate, however, that I cannot, and should not attempt to, impose my attitudes and values on other people, through the force of law , only explain them.

but then in comes the debate, when is it considered to have rights, of a human being...well that depends I don't really believe its a being until about 2nd trimester, after that its pretty safe to say that that its a being, I'm not going to debate whether a women should have rights over her own body or not, you never seemed to address my concept of what would you prefer, given if it was your wife or daughter, who made a simple mistake, the one time...how would you feel if your 13 year old daughter had missed taking her pill the one time, then had sex and got pregnant, then didn't want to have the child, isn't it her basic right to life to get every opportunity available to her? shouldn't she decided whats best for her, what she would be able to cope with?

Perhaps i had not completed my reply when you wrote. (I have a habit of saving then ediiting and adding bits as they occur to me.)

It would not matter, even if my real wife or hypothetical daughter had been raped. There is no blame that can attach to the woman or the child in such a case, and the child is still a child.

Of course my wife or daughter might be traumatised and my first priority is to love and care for them, physically and emotionally but genetically the child is still half theirs.

If they approved i would take the child, love and care for it as my own. If this was too psychologically damaging for the mother, i would ensure it was loved and cared for elsewhere. If carrying or bearing the child posed a significant physical risk to the mother, then abortion might be necessary. And in the example of a 13 year old both the medical and psychological risks would be greater, and thus the chance of an abortion higher, but in my extended family i know many women who gave birth at 15 and are good mothers, with good kids who would never have been born if they had aborted.

If medical advice was that my wife or daughter was so traumatised they might consider or attempt suicide through the pregnancy, then their existing right to life life overides the childs potential future.

I have already stated my position that any human life begins at conception. However, for the very practical and social reasons you have outlined, I accept that modern birth control methods are a very good thing in controlling fertility and family planning. Sex is not inately sinful, rather the opposite(an affirmation of life), but it is an extremely powerful force in human nature and basically should be treated with the respect such a force deserves.
Why do you use terms like, " making a mistake". A child is never a mistake . It is the natural outcome of sex, and hopefully even if only at the time, of love.

I do find it interesting that you think my daughter would be having sex and on the pill at 13. Anything is possible , but given the nature of myself and, more particularly, my wife, and our own family histories, this is an extremely unlikely scenario. She wouldnt even possess a cell phone at that age, let alone the possibility of using it to arrange sexual rendevous

Maybe the place and society i live in is different, to your own, but i teach teenage girls, including in health and sex education.. Some of them are certainly having sex, but unwanted pregnancies are almost unhesard of. The last, in my experience, was more than 10 years ago.

Certainly my daughter would have a full and comprehensive education in sex, along with a lot of other health and life matters, and certainly if she was sexually active and did not want to have a child, i would encourage (in fact try to insist) that she used every form of contraception available to her.

I have no objection to sex per se, but as i said, is it is a powerful and complex emotional experience, which is particularly powerful in developing adolescents. This needs to be appreciated and dealt with logically and rationally not through guilt or other emotions sometimes associated with religion.

To be blunt .If it was my daughter, having a child would not have a negative affect on her future. I would see to that .(as any father should). But no. Her right to a particular future does not over rule the right to life of my grandchild (deliberately putting it in personal terms)

But then I would value my daughter as much as a mother, as i would if she was a doctor, and i would hope, given an ethical background, she would see life like that also.

Mr. Walker, you are indeed very aware and very understanding to others. And I see you promising, what others who fight pro-choice refuse to do, see to the caring and raising of an unwanted child. I'm with Rockerchic, there should be better education for sex and relationships, but it seems a lot of people refuse to see the healthy benefit to that. Instead battle the anti-abortion front, not realizing that trying to make that illegal, will only push abortion into the back alley butcher situations that Rockerchic mentioned. I think that one of the main reasons abortion became legal, is to stop the deaths the mothers went through to get these abortions. Make abortion illegal again, and abortions will still be practiced, but back into the back alleys again. I do believe, that a big part of my country, the states, has a very archaic and very unhealthy look at sex and relationships, and just refusing to really communicate to our children about the realities of it, and to acknowledge the need for sex-ed in our schools and not fight it. Because of these attitudes, we have more ignorant individuals getting pregnant and no where to turn.
It's nice to hear you feel for the mothers and the unwanted pregnancies, but really, do you really think you can be there for a rape victim and think you can care for them fully? You might be in for a surprise. I do believe it varies with each victim, but the trauma is severe, and the after-effects, long lasting, almost permantly. Imagine having to go throught the long pregnancy and the pain of labor. Having gone through two wanted pregnancies and births, I almost didn't make it. My first was eighteen hours of pain, and my second was a 9 pound, 6 ouncer! I had gestastinal diebetes with both, and it nearly tore at my sanity. Making an unwilling mother go through the pregnancy of a rape, that, I am sorry, is inconsiderate. It's still a life to you, I understand, but rape, relationships, attitudes toward sex, marriage, and individual's part in it, have never been simple, and once these situations are better viewed maturely and responsible by all, then maybe we can all have simple and wanted lives after nine months and birth. Until then, words are one thing, actions are saying way too much for your thoughts to really show it could happen.

In other words, there is no where we can improve and save the unborn lives properly, until we fix the attitudes of the lives already here.

Hi watch ful, perhaps i should have highlighted this line from my previous post.



I would not make a woman do something that harmed her, and if, as in your case, her health was at severe risk, then of course she is the one who can ultimately decide what to do.(and in my case she would be unconditionally supported whatever her choice was)

Mr.Walker,
since I didn't want to talk up a whole page I'm not going to quote you on anything, while a respect everything your saying we need to look at the facts of everything, not every father, or boyfriend is going to see it the way you do, I don't want my post to be directed at your parenting skills because its not intended for that at all, it was just based on a hypothetical situation, as yes ethics are key, but as we know kids try things, experiment and do there own thing to become their own person.

The facts are key in a debate such as this, girls are having kids at younger ages, partially do to parents, and also with sex education, although I know alot of young teens can be great parents, some can't. I love my mom, shes the greatest, its nothing against her but I'll say that her parenting skills, weren't the greatest (putting it lightly to avoid hurt feelings) As I mentioned she was on the pill when she had me, she was 21, a year older then me, and just being 20 myself, the idea of a child terrifies me right now, I know my mom probably would have aborted me if she knew that my father wasn't going to be there(her and I had a discussion about this), but of course he promised her he would, but guess what my real dad...well was a drug addict, thief, and sold drugs, he almost got me taken away from my mom because he was doing deals in the house behind my moms back, his mom tried to have me baptized without my moms knowledge. My first memory is of my mom and him fighting...then one day he took off my mom fought a vicious custody battle with him. She's been through a heck of alot, and shes taught me alot, shes raised me into a strong and independent woman who doesn't need to rely on anyone, but then she was a single parent living off welfare, in the Canadian military, my father never paid child support, ever. She was barely around because she had to make sure we had a roof over our head, we lived just below the poverty line. my point of my early life story is, not every guy is going to be there, there are some cowardly men in the world.

Do you really think thats its fair for a child's first memory to be one of her parents fighting? no it isn't. Girls 13 years of age go through similar situations, not everyone is blessed to have an amazing guy like you Mr.Walker to be there in support, nore blessed with understanding parents, my life experiences is why I'm happy that I'm pro-choice, I know I couldn't have gone through all that like my mom did, let alone a young girl, sometimes people need time to learn and grow from their bad choices before they can be ready to face a lifetime commitment. Not everything is as logically cut as you think it is.

I spent some time the other day thinking about this topic as a dear friend of mine had become pregnant and after a lot of wavering back and forth, she decided to abort. Not an easy decision. She is as divorced 37 year old with three children, one of which is autistic and requires a lot of time and patience. She is in a steady relationship.

The reason she aborted was that she felt this was not a good time to bring a new baby into their family. She was thinking about the children who already exist.

There are so many reasons to have an abortion. Timing not right, ill health of mother, poor relationship, mother too young, no father, no family structure of support, no money or poverty. When considering abortion, really, we can't say one reason is better than the other because bottom line is, it is still abortion. This is what gets me is when someone (a pro-lifer) says, "oh well, if the mother's health is at risk, then she should have the abortion". What they are saying is that the mother's life is more valuable than the baby's, which is contradictory to all their previous arguments.

I see via the media and hear from friends about the fundamentalist christians, red-necks and trailor trash and how many of them have more children than they can afford. I think too myself, the last thing these people need is another kid. Just let them abort without all the self-righteousness of religion.

- Link removed -

by Mr. Walker:
I guess you have a lot in you, that you are confident in doing. In which, I am thankful that you are considerate to even consider the support you about to give in such a circumstance. In which, I would love to have others here to notice, because not everyone is like you and would promise that. I must apoligize that I thought less of you, and say that that kind of thinking should be followed.
I do believe it's still a tall order for anyone to fill, but atleast someone is thinking of trying be it is needed.

by Rockerchick2008:
And this should be noted. The first paragraphed I copied from Rockerchic's post talks about her father promising to be there. It isn't as logical as one would like to think it is. How many promises of a lot of men being there didn't work out? How many promises of husbands were just as good? In my observation of my life, half of either situation wasn't fulfilled. How about promises of being there, if the relationship was taken a bit further? Too much I have seen that happen, and then it was all lies afterwards. Too many labels of who you are in what ever you do, and too many guilt trips if you didn't fulfill the wishes of boyfriends and then they leave. This is why I believe abortion is now legal. Too many scared women having to face the reality of abortion, because their reality of their lives with certain men were shattered! It seems some here are blaming pro-choices of condoning murder, when in the end, there seems to me much more of condoning the behavior of men, then it is of women.

OP shared his/her thoughts on the matter, so I thought I'd share mine...
If anyone ever asked me whether I was "Pro-Choice" or "Anti-Abortion" I would say that I'm Pro-Abortion.

So you're not for a woman making a choice with her own body, you are for abortion, regardless? Sorry, if you are trying to make a different point, I'm not getting it, I'm afraid.

Don't worry, you're getting it. There are too many people having too many kids. I like what China's doing about it.

Actually thats not technically true any longer. In almost every devoped country we are not having enough children to replace ourselves and this will be true of the worlds population, as a whole, from about 2050 onwards, but in any case it (The case for abortion), as many other posters have pointed out, is about the quality of life (individual and total) rather than the quantity of life.

Im alll for good contraception and fertility control but to me the killing of a human being as a form of population contrlol is just as unacceptable as euthanasing everyone who is not a productive member of society.

Ive probably had more than my share of view on this topic, but i did want to add one more thing.


Perhaps understandably, readers might think I am for making abortion illegal.

I am not. That would be as useless, or counterproductive and harmful, as banning alcohol was in the prohibition era.

Personally, i believe three things.

Intrinsically abortion is an ethical wrong, in fact one of the true real evils in this world.

Thus i have a responsibility to argue against it.

My responsibility is both personal (to do what i can for people I find in need of help and support), and corporate.

The last point means that I need to argue for, and work towards, a society where women do not need, or want, an abortion for other than medical reasons. This may mean arguing for a change in the physical nature of society, and also its beliefs and attitudes, but it also means making sure women, (and men in so far as they have a say) are fully educated in both their rights and their responsibilies, including those to the unborn, as well as to them selves.

We don't need replacing at this time. A part of my support for abortion also stems from my contempt for humanity in general. So some of it is personal.

Thats a very sad statement, and probably i shouldnt comment on it publicly, but you were brave enough to make it, so I will .(Im not sure how seriously to take it given the smiley attached)

You are a member of humanity. I really hope you have the capacity to love and respect yourself. The qualities you admire and respect in yourself are found throughout humanity, along with many less admirable ones .

Because humanity has developed sentiience, it is capable of choices for both good and evil. More importantly perhaps, because of its technological abilities, it is equally capable of making a huge diffference , both positive and negative

. I find it difficult to have contempt for such a species. Concern, doubt, and fear some times yes, but love inspiration and great hope at other times. We are what we are, either through design or evolution. We are the only species known with the self realisation ability to recognise that fact. We have a duty to make a difference because we can.

It is also counter productive both in evolutionary terms and "spiritually' to hold your own species in general in contempt, and somewhat of a cop out. If you do all you can as a force for good, creation or whatever your terms for life and a positive affirmation of your existence, then you have done all you can.

Holding onto a negative emotion like contempt, only decreases your power to do good.

Personally, i wish humanity could match its technological advances with moral and ethical ones, and i believe it will have to, if it is to survive as a species, and find a place in galactic civilisation as it migrates out from earth.

Nice response! I was admittedly at a loss. I mean, who wants to answer someone who already has contempt for ya?

Very SAD !


I agree about the overpopulation bit, but I don't believe abortion is a good method of birth control. But I am not strictly against abortion.

But I feel that just too many people are dumb, careless, impulsive & naive, and I am tired of hearing their excuses !

By the way, most human beings are good, and really wish good will & happiness unto others. You must not feel a connection to your fellow brothers & sisters anymore. How sad.

Many,many people have brought joy and good things into my life. You just need to surround yourself with good people, be a good judge of character and be a good friend yourself to others. Also truly love yourself. Very simple really !

A question to those who are pro life. Wouldn't the use of birth control methods such as a condom also be considered immoral or unethical? I mean if I didn't use one odds are I would have had a baby by now so by using one I prevented that baby from being born and experiencing life. Using a condom doesn't kill anything like abortion does but it does prevent future life in the same way.

I would also like to take to the chance to retract my opinions in my previous posts. I do believe that abortion is ethically and immorally wrong except in certain cases such as rape, the birth would kill the mother, brain dead babies, or possibly even not wanting to bring a child into a bad environment(as in the mother lives in a place where her child would live in severe poverty, sickness, hunger, pain, slavery, what have you) and even then I'm not saying these cases are right or wrong but at least somewhat justifiable. Upon reflection I am unsure as to whether I would get abortion if I was a woman and became pregnant(or I was the father and had an opinion) my stance on that would be best described as conflicted. Even though I view abortion to be mostly unethical and immoral I do not view those who get abortions as bad people, although those who use abortions as substitute for birth control I do view as bad people.


Realistically this debate will never be concluded and no side will ever win. The most logical way to deal with the issue is to provide a better approach to sex education and if needed develop better forms of birth control(or at least ones that people are more willing to use).

In philosophy I am pro life, in practice I am pro choice. I agree that every effort should be made to preserve life or the possibility of life in all but the most extreme cases (rape, mother's health is at risk, etc.); but by the same token, it is not my place to decide the actions of others for them. Who am I to dictate what you do? The part I find abhorrent is people who simply wish to have an abortion as a matter of convenience. You got pregnant by mistake, don't want a kid, so you abort it. That to me is unacceptable. Can't you find another way? I mean; there are so many who want kids but can't have them=ADOPTION PEOPLE!!!! If you can't handle having a kid, you can at least have it, then give it to someone who will love it as their own.

Everyone is on a different journey here, though. Because of this, it is not right of me to impose my will on others and forcibly decide them to follow something because it is what I believe. I am not Hitler. I am not George W. Bush. People have the right to decide themselves; that is 'democracy', right? Just wish they'd make better choices lol

I'm pro life because I view it as murder once the mother has reached the second trimester because the child's brain activity is starting to develop. So a condom or any form of birth control or the morning after pill isn't wrong.



Yes, unless its rape or some health issue, then its just irresponsible to not have used birth control in the first place. I don't agree with you on having the abortion do to poverty, because that's another case of no responsibility. The mother was aware of those circumstances before she got pregnant.

by Mr. Walker:
What about the planet as a whole? I keep hearing about overpopulation as a big ploblem planet wide, and just because one country has low declining rates, there is another with higher rates. For a country to not replaces themselves, yes you can, from another country. We are all the same here.

I'm with Mr. Walker here, in a sense. I think that abortion is not a good tool to use for population control, just making sure contraception and fertility control should be the best way, and if there are failures in that, than it happens. I saw a program about China's one child law, one couple couple purposely get pregnant a second time, after already having a first child. They were forced to have an abortion, even though the mother was about eight months pregnant. I thought that was horrible.

by BlindMessiah:
As well as the father. Both of them should be responsible and blamed for lack of responsiblity. Even if he wasn't told, he should atleast know, that it's a possiblity when he too has sex. So, he should be able to understand, that if he doesn't want to atleast take the responsiblity too, or have the situation of not being told he fathered a child, he should atleast not have sex to prevent this from happening to him.

Agreed. The father is just as responsible. Unfortunately people "take responsibilty" by killing the kid before they have to take care of the child.

by BlindMessiah:
In some ways, I can see some doing that, in others, it is a more complexed thing. The idea, where your thoughts are concerned, is that why cannot both genders get a good education from their parents about what responsiblity is really about?

Think about each person would have to have atleast one child to replace there selves, so thats two kids per couple. Also take into account how many people choose not to reproduce, are unable to reproduce, or die before they can. So some couples would have to have more then two kids, I think Mr. Walker told me that the fertility rate should be like 2.04 or something.

People aren't in as much of a rush to have kids or even settle down and get married as they use to. It has a bit to do with the change in gender roles, where women where once expected to grow up get married and have kids they can now have full careers. In the past marriage and a family where expected of you where as today it really isn't. Theres a buncha reasons that I'm to lazy to type. I'm twenty years old and don't want kids or to get married and my friends who do want to get married view it as something that will happen after college and not into their late twenties or even early thirties and don't intend to have children until its financially viable it wasn't like this in the old days.

Mr. Walker also told me that although population is looking to drop counties such as America may be better off do to immigration and China because because they could just lift the restrictions.

Thanks cadetak. basically by2050 about the overall world fertility will drop below 2.2- per woman. Thats the figure required to acheive population stability, given that some people never reproduce for a variety of reasons. The worlds population will first stablise, and then as the large group of older peole begins to die, it will fall, at first slowly, then quickly. Countries will face whole new problems of financing infrastructure and supporting old people from a very small group of younger people.

At the moment most western countries would be in population decline, if not for external immigration, and Australia is planning the biggest ever number of immigrants to supply workers and finance for the next generation. In theory this works well, but in practice may destabilise the nature of a country if there is great ethnic diversity and insufficient integration of social values (we are actually all very different depending on our beliefs and values) Great britain is a case in point, and australia is already having problems with multiculturalism.

None the less, western nations will need to find a way to make migration work, or they will virtually disappear.

In the long run the problem is greater, however. If those low birth rates should happen to be maintained, it would not take too many generations before the worlds population fell to a point where it became an endangered species. Some might approve of the irony here, but as one who finds a lot to admire in humanity, i would hate to see that happen.
In any case, the argument that abortion serves a social good, by reducing population growth is already past its use by date, whether or not it was an ethical argument in the first place.

I don't think it will get so bad that we become an endangered species. It will just take time to adapt. A lower world population could prove beneficial in some ways, thats for a different topic however.

I also do not find population control as a good reason for abortion for two reasons, one it isn't needed as you stated, and two because whoever is using that argument to justify their abortion is just making an excuse because I doubt people care about population control that much. Although, hypothetically speaking if overpopulation were severe world epidemic of a thing I can see it being a justifiable if not an ethical course of action.

I am incredibly,vehemently pro-choice.
Most people ,imho,who claim that abortion is murder and wrong,do so in the name of God.Let's throw that argument asside for a moment and look at this issue another way.

I don't want kids.Period.
Therefore I take precautions,but if those precautions fail,I would abort.
Some people say that abortion is irresponcible,and that if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant,she shouldn't have sex.
That's illogical.

Then there's the fact that...come on,folks,what does some random woman's abortion have to do with you?To each their own.

I hate abortion... But i never say no to abortion..

Bcoz most of the things we do in our daily life is wrong... we live modern..

Where we poisioned and medicine for posion is posion..

I hate the way they produce this medicine.. They literly hurt those small.. Snakes look nice... they hurt us because of fear not for fun.. but we hurt them for our benifit..

These posion may save your life... But i don't prefer a life like that... rather i choose live in sadness..
than hurting those small.. Some one hurting you and the reaction you hurt some1... this conutinue..

Yes.. i know partically it is difficult.. we can read in story like gandhi and jesus.. But in pratical if we show love..
we have to sacrifice our life for it... no human ready to end their life... bcoz modern world is so selfish and choose more self happiness than looking for neighbour/others happiness..

If you prefer to live a modern life... i rather say choose abortion.

But i like to avoid that two minutes happiness than hurting some1.

sex n stuff ...................blah...blah........blah.........

Zzzzz..................Zzzzzzz..............

I still don't know what killing babies has to do with God. On top of that, the Bible says nothing about it. Shouldnt it simply be an argument of ethics and morality?

I still don't know what killing babies has to do with God. On top of that, the Bible says nothing about it. Shouldnt it simply be an argument of ethics and morality?

I still don't know what killing babies has to do with God. On top of that, the Bible says nothing about it. Shouldnt it simply be an argument of ethics and morality?

Yes, were does it say in t the bible that Jehovah god is against abortion ?

Well for a start it also isn't a baby, you have to be born to be a baby.

It doesnt. And the rogue verse from Ecclesiastes as 'proof' is silly....

All life is supposed to be sacred. There is also a question of if they knew about abortion then? From what I understand, there were some methods. Poisons and such.

But I think if people want to be opposed to abortion, the Bible and religion should not be involved. Churches push the issue por political power, and vice versa. Most Christians that are pro-life, have never really thought about it. They are just following the flock. I'm against abortion, but I'm not "pro-life". I don't call myself that, because if I did, I'd be associated with a crowd and all their other beliefs. What I'd like to see more are atheist that are pro-life. That be more interesting.

Where does it say that all life is sacred in the bible ?

If it does it is rather hypocritical since some of it encourages killing and God also does his fair share of killing.

It's ironic how supposedly god condemns the killing of innocent children (embryos too ?) but yet kills them himself or orders them to be killed ?

But God only hits punishes us because we deserve it, or to provide a good lesson for the others, remember.

Sounds like a case of "do as I say, don't do as I do" -hmm.........it sounds SO HUMAN somehow, doesn't it ? What happened to being a good example first ?

There we go to the root of all hypocrisy


pro-choice by choice

well, there are lots of gods out there. There not all the same. neither of the things you mention are a part of the Christian god

I think the other problem is, I don't see how the Bible works. The things Jesus taught do not correlate to the Hebrew Scriptures. Some things tie in and similar, but they are definately separate schools of thought.

You can't take something written 1500 years before Jesus, attributed to Moses or someone else, and use it to put Jesus down. That doesnt make sense, and just makes you look bad.

Ive looked and passed this thread for like... forever.

"My moto is just dont get pregnant in the first place"! Be responsible with good morals.
Ive heard people say that if the heart is not beating then the fetus isnt alive.
Why get as far to have to make that descision.

Now if the bible and all that yadda yadda says marry before sex, thou shalt not covert thy neighbours missus etc.
Then waaaay back when that would be the only solution to not become pregnant.
In keeping the good morals In ths day and age you could say yes "be faithful" and getting married is the start of a family. Respected.
Times have changed rubbers are here and there not queer they are accepted and are yet another thread on there own.
We have evolved, women can now speak up and set the game straight.
"Say and do what Is right and one wont have to deal with what one may have to do or say".

God will punish only if you believe he will!

The story of the Bible is a book of lessons, and that I think is what Religion teaches.
To not make life choices and not learn from them is a self punishment.

So god has the holy and souly control to punish us you say?

We deserve what we bring unto ourselves......

The thing is occasionally people will get pregnant using contraception, it is not a black and white case.