I think EVERY WOMAN of proper age should have a choice-

So should the father. The life inside is part his, too.

Id say the choice of abortion is always after the fact.

If you dont want kids dont have sex. Condems can break. Birth control can fail.

So this being said we leave Rape victems and sex trade workers with the tough decision. Rape no question let them have the choice [I beleive the father should have no rights in this case.]

Although i am confused with the sex trade. Society creates the red light enviroment so we should further understand how the choice would effect that enviroment.

He should have a say in it sure--but the untimate decision is up to the woman since she is the one carrying the child-
So many variables are involved here--
aaand I thought you weren't going to get involved?

Flawed logic. And I'm not getting involved. This is my last post on this thread.

Wow... people certainly are sensitive...

This topic is such a testy one. While I support those that are of the opinion that it should be banned. . .I support them only in the way that it is their opinion and it should be respected. However, you can not take your opinion and force others to abide by it.

There is no single type of woman that gets an abortion. Most cases, despite what some believe, are not used in place of birth control. Anyone that would pay the money to get abortion after abortion instead of getting on normal birth control would be insane. Abortions, despite some beliefs, are not as easy to get as some presume. Many women have to travel over state lines and drive hours to get to a clinic and wait in a crowded room for a few more hours. Its not pleasant or simple in any sense of the words.

And while I would love to live in the fantasy world where full grown adults in healthy relationships completely abstain from sex even WITH birth control due to the chance (however small) of getting pregnant. . .I must accept the fact that such a reality is not logical.

In many states there is a mandatory counseling session that must be attended, followed by a waiting period before the actual procedure. Women are presented with their options, including adoption and ways for low income families to get help, and are counseled on the risks associated with abortion, in an unbiased way. There is no "you must do this or be miserable" atmosphere in an abortion clinic. Women are left to decide for themselves what would be best for them, and spouses or significant others are welcome to participate in the counseling in most places.

There is alot of fear mongering on both sides of the fence. I am sure both sides exaggerate numbers a bit. The fact is that, if abortion were made illegal, there is no way to tell how many women would die in seeking alternate methods. We can, however, look at those that are already seeking alternate methods due to the increasing expense and difficulty in finding a clinic. If you take time to look, you would find several underground circles in which these methods are practiced and taught. It is safe to say, that if so many people are already moving down that path, that several more would follow.

One argument that always got me from the prolife side was that abortions cause difficulties in future pregnancies and may cause deformities and such. This is grossly exaggerated. In a recent study of 11,800 women that had undergone medical abortion, none of them had trouble with future pregnancies. Surgical abortions may carry more risk, as it is possible for them to cause scarring on the uterus, though this is rare. link

Post abortal stress sydrome is indeed real, but it should be separated into different categories. Some cases are caused by the same hormonal changes which cause Postpartum depression, and fade with time, sometimes without the help of medication. Others are caused by outside influences. . and some are caused simply because the person changed their mind a little too late. But to assume that all women who get abortions suffer from this is just plain wrong. Most women either get no form of PASS or it is so minimal that it goes by nearly unnoticed. For those that do get it, there are plenty of counseling areas as well as medications to ease the transition.

And, one must also take into consideration the adverse reactions of women that carry unwanted pregnancies to term, and whether or not the risk is less than those that get abortions. The UK did a study on two groups of women. One group had abortions after an unwanted pregnancies, and the others carried to term. Neither group showed any higher risks of mental illness or stress. link

And that's my two cents on the subject. . .

LoL yep

Groups or individuals who bomb abortion clinics are repulsive, first of all.

I'm pro-life and...BIG CONFESSION HERE...I had an abortion when I was 18 years old. I can't tell you the hours I've have sense spent curled up in a ball and crying over it. Even more so now that I have a 3 year old son. It just hurts me in my gut to think of the helpless life that I extinguished. It's my biggest regret in life.

For me, and for other people who share my view, the issue comes down to when a life becomes viable. It's difficult to be a Christian and to not believe that life begins at conception.

My boss is hovering (so ANNOYING) so I can't finish my thought. You get the jist.

Roe, from the infamous Roe v. Wade, is now pro-life, too.

You're right Aidan. I'd heard that as well. Life sometimes causes shifts in opinions.

well he is certainly free to discuss it but in the end its the females decision, .......

i have 3 beautiful sons and lived a life that never found me in a situation that I had to decide to abort, i had a very informed upbringing with the appropriate data needed and then some to make sound decisions with a support system that was wise and attentive........... regardless I will not ever for one second take the right to choose from anyone . .....this may not be my path but i will not take make htis decsion for another and i can't for one second think that any mother who has to make this decison does so lightly.....


probably the most touching story i have ever heard is from a client of mine a girl who was born to a drug addicted mother and was adopted by a wonderful family, yet is pro choice...

Well, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a decision. The decision, I feel, should be before the deed takes place. And rape and incest are smoke screens and emotional appeals the pro-abortion crowd puts up. The majority of rape cases does not result in pregnancy.

you have the right to any opinion you want and i respect that but you have no say in what another does with thier body nor should you....



its not you or your life in your life you get to live out your choices ...there are plenty of things we can do as a culture to make abortion the last thing anyone should have to do......


focus your energys there instead of on imposing your personal dictum on another whose life is really none of your buisness.....

I know this sucks and its probably hard to hear but its not about you....

i am a vegan and can't help but wonder how anyone can profess to be pro life yet subject and then eat an animal that is treated inhumanely and not give a darn, but i don't get to tell another how to eat or judge them........ and some can't fathom how I can be a vegan and be pro choice........

From the moment of conception, it's no longer just the woman's body. That's not something you can blame on me or Right To Life; blame it on God or Nature, whatever you prefer




Pedophilia. I don't agree with that, so am I forcing my personal dictum on others with that one? Of course. I don't agree with murder. Do you?



How do you know I eat meat? Also, our culture and society holds human life above all else. So, don't take it up with me, take it up with society.

Anyway, later, if I feel like it, I'll post a complete explanation for my beliefs. I don't feel like doing it now, because I haven't written a paper on this issue since I was a freshman in college. I would have to hunt up all my sources and such, so maybe later.

i don't know if you eat meat or not, i used that to make a point....

i would argue that society doesn't value human life and merely gives lip service to it...

if you eat meat, eat saturated fats smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, do drugs, drive drunk, run a red light , worry about things, do not excercise or over eat or are overweight you can't really say value on your life is a priority.........


our religious canons and creeds likewise do not value life we dont have to look very far to see how throughout history they thought nothing of a life that was being lived by a full sentient being...






hell we can argue all day but it doesn't change that you still have no say in the choice of what another does with their body....
I go with the definition of human life and as far as I know there is no law that okays the performing of an abortion when the organism is thought to have sentience....


you can not just terminate at any point there is a very small window....I was very in favor of the morning after pill ....for these reasons .narrow that window.......


and educate, educate, educate.....

^

I completely agree.

Everyone should retain the right to choose. If you choose to believe that abortion is wrong, then that's fine. . .but you also have to accept the fact that others do not believe as you do.

I am also curious. . .how many people that are pro-life are also anti birth control? And I also wonder. . .seeing as though around 50% of fertilized eggs don't implant. . .should women consider every late period a mini funeral? I'm just asking because I'm wondering how far some are on the pro-life scheme of things. . .

indeed or anti sex education or deny that ones sexual essence is part of life and how are they preparing thier children. for this milestone ....

i had a client who was a devout christatin family move from california to Texas thinking the values would support and reflect their own moral sense as opposed to liberal california and its crazy notion of educating our kids to be sexually responsible and telling them what a condom was......turn around and come back a year later because of the astounding teenage pregnancy rate and lack of sex education and ignorance ....

this family are dear friends and they have remained christian but are now practical and as it stands their 20 year old is not pregnant and is sexually educated and on the pill....

isnt it ironic...

Yeah, I had to sit through one of those abstinence only sex-ed classes. Again, that fantasy world of abstaining from sex for all of your life unless you want a baby just doesn't really seem logical.

But, I guess that's what some on the pro-life side like to think, as a few of them are very anti-birth control and anti sex ed. Either you abstain or you spend your life being pregnant and popping out babies. I don't think either of those scenarios would produce very happy women. In fact, I think that may be just the right ingredient to produce world war 3. . .or 4, depending on if you believe we're already in 3.

And before someone brings the fetus feels pain issue up, I'll go ahead and say. . .while pain receptors may begin to develop rather early, the nerve pathways needed to actually feel pain aren't developed until around the 28th week of gestation. Reflex reactions do not equal pain. Just thought I'd go ahead and bring that up because I see it rather often in these types of debates. . . .and its quite often used during debates of "when life actually begins" and all that good stuff.

well it doesnt work the teen pregnacy rate is climbing ..somehow hormones get the last laugh....


oh my gosh the ole i didn't marry for sex tripe or sex isn't everything..i have seen more relationships end on this note... turns out it was rather important after all....

That is literally one of the worst arguments for abortion I have ever heard in my life. Nothing against you, I just think its a poor argument. I mean, an innocent life cannot be held responsible for what other people do.



My reasons for not supporting abortion have nothing to do with religion.




Not only their body anymore. A fact you cannot refute. Nature or God, what have you, set it up that way.



Well, from the moment of conception, a unique individual has been created. His or her hair color, eye color, and much of their personality are formed. That, to me, indicates life. It may not be a person, as we define it by law, but it is life nonetheless - human life. We all were in that form one day.



In my state, you can receive an abortion up to 24 weeks. The child can survive outside the womb at 20 weeks. See a problem here? I do.

When you compare a lone female egg to that of an embryo, you show a complete misunderstanding of human biology. The egg is useless on its own. It is not human life - an embryo, a fertilized egg, is human life. So your little shot at pro-lifers was ridiculous.

There are many men who would gladly raise their signifigant others baby, Too bad they have no say in this matter, yet can and are held acountable If the baby is born.

Yup it's all her choice, That sux Imo.

I do agree with you that it is a womans personal choice, but I will continue to try Explain what this does to the spirit of the life which was terminated by this choice.

I know many are remorsful while the procedure is going on , not to mention after it is done, but this does not compair to the unwantednes and Pain the Baby's spirit Feels from this sacralidge of Life, being scraped up, sucked out and thrown away, with feelings of not being wanted sends them to a place consciously, where they live this pain over and Over again.

It is a very sad thing indeed.

Love Omnaka

Actually, you didn't read my post correctly. I said 50% of FERTILIZED EGGS do not implant. You quoted me yourself, go back and read it before commenting on it, k?

And how many of you are saying that the man is never involved in the decision making? In most cases they ARE. Most of us are trying to make the point that you do not have the right to tell every individual woman what to do. If you want to discuss it with your significant other, then that's fine, but do not put your beliefs upon every other woman in our society.

What do you figure the percentages of Most is?

I did not have a choice Im The murder Of My son.

Am I the minority in this sad freewill of The woman, The Man, who plays a part but has no say?
Should She will the baby to Be Born, The man is automatically acountable by Law.

I would have raised My son, But I had no choice In the matter. I greatly admire Pavots Post on Love and the taking of Hearts.

QUOTE

"Ok I do understand that this is a debate thread but I will not come back after posting this and debate it what I wrote here, I do not want to live the pain of heart I am now in having to write this to show your hearts and make my points clearly heard, respect to all Pavot…

My Thoughts upon Murdering of hearts, please do hear me out, this not what you may be thinking, I have killed hearts in my lifetime, the first time I was only Eighteen, in High school, in Love, living in my own apartment, a full time job and going to School as well, I was a man, but my Parents as they decided to forcibly make use and they did make us have an abortion, it killed a lot of hearts a baby (Fetus-Life) it killed our hearts then, and still does to this day, thirty plus years after the apportion and will until we die, we take such things such heart choices to our graves and live in these heart choices daily and nightly awake and in our dreams, only if you are willing to sever and I mean to numb and change your hearts forever should you make what I believe strongly for any reason not the right choice as in to take a life.

The next time that I killed, my heart and hers and her families, was a few years after, my wee young family desperately needed the food and I went out and took a life, I took carefully skilled aim and the bullet ripped through her sending her many feet into the air as her back bone broke in two, her sisters stood there in great horror and shock and turned and fan off and I let them, numb myself and very sick within my heart, this Man’s heart, I destroyed her precious life and her children’s and her families, I hear her cry out in great pain and agony to this day it is haunting I watched the life leave from within her eyes her spirit went…

If you think that you are a tough hearted person, if you think you can face that mirror and look into those eyes I am betting I know you will kill more than the heart of that wee baby, I struggle in my writing and my many struggles emotionally and physically show in my daily writing in the moods of, but let me tell you this, what that wee baby is going to show you of your own heart, is your own call my friends, that wee life and life it is will show you your heart every day for the rest of your life, and I do, God my dear friends I do want that baby to shows you the Love of your hearts and not the horrible tormenting pain within, it is love now but if you change it to pain it will be your own call and you will live it daily for the rest of your lives, I am a huge strong Man a tuff son of a B. I have chased down bears in wilder youth and fought many battles but I have never even expected that I would I would crumble and hate my own self for taking those two lives the life of my own wee baby (Fetus-Life-hearted one) never showing my hearts love and life and a does life killing her and her families hearts.…

I suggest you print off these words I wrote and every time or that one time you have to make that dissection you read the wise world of this old Indian Grandfather…

Pavot"

Verry wise words Indeed!!!!



Love Omnaka

Perhaps you should be clearer. But either way, nature taking away a life is quite different than man taking away a life. And what is the basis for you comment that most men are involved? Is that your opinion or is that fact? Furthermore, I'm sick and tired of this feminist crap. Modern day feminists distort the true meaning of it and use it as an excuse to murder an innocent baby. Susan B. Anthony said of abortion, "No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death, but oh, thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation that impelled her to the crime!" Elizabeth Cady Stanton said, "Abortion is a disgusting and degrading crime." So, my message to feminists is this: Learn your roots before opening your mouth.

And we push our beliefs on the rest of society all the time. Pedophila is one example. NAMBLA, for example, is a national joke. It's not as though they advocate having sex with five year olds, but rather, advocate allowing young teenagers, 13 and 14, to decide for themselves if they want to sleep with older people. I consider NAMBLA to be a sick, disgusting group. I think anyone who wishes to have sex with someone that young is a pervert, and I bet you do, too. And the one thing that you fail to realize is this: There is a life other than that of the mother at stake. It's not her body alone anymore. Get that through your head. There is an innocent life inside her. Why should that life have to pay for the mother and father's mistakes?

You answer me that in a sensible way, I will send my next paycheck to Planned Parenthood.

If it does, what's you're view then? Just out of interest?

Look, I think abortion is a disgusting thing. And having an abortion is not going to unrape the woman. However, I cannot, in good conscious, ask a woman who has been violated in that way to carry the criminal's child. So, in cases of rape, it should be up to the woman. I would hope she realizes that the baby cannot be held responsible for the crimes of his or her father, but I think it would be heartless to tell a woman that she MUST carry the child. Fortunately, only .2% of rape ends up in pregnancy.

I don't think or believe that the abortion debate(s) will ever be resolved. Too many people on all sides of the arguement and no one's willing to let others be with how they think, feel and believe. It makes it hard to make any law that's "right" when so many think that the others are wrong.

Its a personal choice which has nothing to do with Religion, and everything to do with consciousness, and spirit. Justification which will never sin right in one's heart who goes along with this.

One can lie to his spirit while in Body, But not verry well, When there is no more Body to lie for He will be acountable, This will be More painful than most can bare..

It is telling a lie to ones own spirit, God and the universe to say that it's alright for any reason..

Not one reason will justify this act when one has no body to lie for.

Love Omnaka

The reason I think abortion is disgusting has nothing to do with God, faith, spirit or the like. It has more to do with the fact that I respect human life, at any level. For women to think they have the right to treat a human life as property that can be disposed of is perhaps more disgusting than abortion itself. A woman's body, right, or any other nonsensical justification for murdering is complete BS, in my opinion. People think killing an innocent life is exercising their "rights." How sad.

And yes, I'm against the death penalty too.

It works the other way also. A man impregnates a woman, the man wants to go through with having a child but the woman does not - however the man doesn't get a say in the matter. Modern thinking is "her body, her choice". And bugger the man and what he wants.

What's ironic is that California has the fourth-highest rate of abortion in the whole United States - Source. If California was so savvy in sex-ed, wouldn't the abortion rates be among the lowest in the country?

I guess it's just a product of where I live, but I never went through such. We did get the "abstinence is safest" routine, but the majority of it was teaching safe-sex (or in other words, "abstinence is best, but we know you're likely to go out and do it anyway, so this is what you should do if that happens").

Of course. This actually happens quite often. And I feel for the man.

I hope it never happens to my son, he should take precautions.

It's lovely to plan the conception of a child together.

"Modern thinking" is quite correct in this case. Childbirth is obviously much more taxing on the woman than it is on the man... If he wants a baby and she doesn't, he should wait 'til she does, adopt, or find another to give birth to his child.

1 woman, her choice.
she understands her situation more than anyone else. therefore,
Its her choice.
personally i stand by whatever decision a woman comes too.
You need a licence to drive a car. You need a licence to own a dog. Any moron can have a child.

And yet if the man doesn't want the baby and the woman does, he's forced to put out child-care for the next 18 years. I'm not saying that men should have the choice either, I'm just pointing out the issues. Ideally, I fully believe that if everyone kept their pants on until they had found a lifelong partner who they would be sharing their whole lives with (rather than today's farcical 50% divorce rate and almost 100% premarital sexual relationships) we'd all be a lot better off.

But that's just my opinion. When it comes to children, the ideal is for both parties to agree. But when they don't, it gets a little problematic. As mlor said on the previous page, if the guy doesn't want the child then he should have taken precautions. But if he does want it and the woman doesn't, then tough luck buddy - no choice.

Yes, childbirth is more taxing on the woman, and while I can't say there is any correct solution (you can't put women in the position where they have to bow to the wishes and authority of the men involved, but you can't strip all Rights from the men either), I will still look at this one issue - it's not just "her body" anymore. There are two beings inhabiting the body - Her body, the child's body. Maybe we should start thinking not "her body, her choice", because as it stands right now, what we really have is "the baby's body, her choice"

ok irish....


how many unwanted kids do you house and take care of? even one? when is the last time you went to the hosptial to hold an aids baby who's mom died?


how much time do you spend in the 'bad' part of town making sure that kids have blankets because they are homeless and freezing because they were not wanted?
In your life how often have you helped a single mother ???

How often a week do you go to the foster care and give of your time and money?

and lets be clear i'm not assuming anything i'm asking you questions...

what are the answers? by the way... if you are not housing any children then you have no leg to stand on and perhaps you are as much a part of the problem as everyone one else, yet you want to strip a being of their rights to decide this...


its the mother who puts the biggest biological contribution into the child, the father contributes the seed... she carrys that child, she nurses that child, hands down she is the most important part of that child getting here in the first place without depending on the mom for life until at which time it can survie on its own(9months later) its the mom who signs up...there would be no child and i think the mother has every right to decide if she wants to sign up for this and her alone you are demanding g a heck of a lot not to mention often the the economic situation will have things stacked agiasnt the child before it ever gets here...



if a mother doesn't think she can raise a child in love and security and be therre 100 percent she has the right to decide this.....and only her...


its wonderful that you care about something but we need the help with the kids that we do have right here right now .....

there is nothing more time consuming and serious as not only havng but raising a child.....

it is not for any other person to decide what one does wth another in many ways this shows the status of the female in society and it seems some men have issue with not being able to bark out orders and control her body...

as i said earlier if you want to see change in this area get proactive find way to create a win win for all , there are lots of kids in foster cares looking for homes perhaps you can be one of them....

Just a quick bit of information...

A baby at 20 weeks is unable to survive outside the womb without serious medical intervention. The lungs are not yet developed enough to breath is a primary concern, as are many other factors.

At 20 weeks the fetus is not a viable entity medically speaking.

Ask a local neonatologist....

I don't think I could have been clearer I said it in the same way the second time that I did the first. *sigh* You know I used to be pro-life. . .only, I was like, I believe it was Sheri who also said this, Pro-ALL LIFE. Vegetarian, animal rights activist (though I still am that), anti abortion, the whole nine yards. But I changed my point of view. I chose to sit down and talk to women who had had abortions, ALOT of them, as well as alot of their spouses/ significant others. (I was involved in a student counseling program if you're wondering how I managed that to begin with) Which led to an extreme internal arguement with myself about my stance on the matter.

Do you have any idea what would happen if there were no birth control? I'm lumping birth control into this, because, very recently, a regulation was proposed that defines abortion so broadly, that oral contraceptives and IUCs are included. I'm also including it because ALOT of pro-life people that I have encountered are also anti-birth control. I honestly can't understand how someone can step back, look at that situation LOGICALLY and say that its a good idea (no birth control).

Can you not see the massive population problem that would occur? I have actually heard the arguement used that birth control hasn't been around forever. . of course not, but back when having 8 kids was the norm, an illness that is today an inconvenience would kill people. With today's medical practices, alot more people are garaunteed to survive to adulthood. This isn't a "cold" arguement, its a logical one. We're already pushing other species to extinction with our massive growth, and we're also using up a whole lot of resources. To me, its extremely selfish to argue for continued overpopulation.

Human beings are getting less and less NATURAL population controls. We can fight off illnesses with medical science, any natural predators are easily controlled by our techonology. Nearly every creature on this earth, in its natural habitat, has some sort of natural population control. Humans DON'T. We need to take that matter alot more seriously than we have been, and, perhaps, we NEED to be our own population control.

Not to mention, I'm sure that ALOT of women would not want to face a life of being either abstinent or perpetually pregnant. If that's a life that you consider good for women, then I suggest you gather a big group of them together and tell them that. See how wonderfully you are treated.

That's the arguement for birth control. Abortion. I've already said this is a tricky issue. You have to understand that some people do NOT define life as you do. I'll ask you a question. Every day, perfectly aware living beings are killed. They are aware of pain, fear, love, loneliness, and most of all, they are aware of their life and are aware of suffering. And no, its not aborted babies, its animals in the pounds. Tell me why its ok to kill animals that are truly alive and aware, but its not ok to kill something that has no knowledge of these things? And don't use the arguement "Society values humans over animals" because I'm not asking society, I'm asking you. And if you answer that no, its not right, tell me what you personally do to try and stop it. And I get so annoyed with pro-life people that say "Oh noes, not the animal debate, its not the same. . " Yet I have never gotten a logical explanation as to why its not the same. If you are pro life, you should, indeed, not be hypocritical, and be pro all life.

I consider it more wrong to kill a sentient creature than it is to kill a non-sentient one. . .And, life does NOT begin at conception to all people. A zygote is a potential for a human life, but, besides being bigger, is hardly different from the cells around it. If anything, the debate needs to center around WHEN abortions become "wrong" not whether they are outright wrong or not. I do not agree with late term abortions. I think its horrible and I don't believe it should be allowed unless to save the life of the mother. I can semi-understand why someone would choose to get one if there was something seriously wrong with the baby. They might not have the money for medical costs during the childs life, the child would face hardships during life,and putting such a child up for adoption seems risky. . .however, at the same time, I believe that more and more tests are becoming available that would identify such problems earlier, so there would be less of an arguement for waiting until late-term.

Bringing a pedophile into the situation still doesn't make your arguement logical. The child involved is sentient, aware of the world, can feel pain and sadness. A fetus, until the 28th week, is not able to feel pain, and until the second trimester, brain development is not significant enough to argue for sentience. If you had not been born, would you have known the difference?

And, depending on your personal beliefs, aborting a baby does not send that baby a harmful and unloving message. Some beliefs dictate that the spirit chooses where it will be born before the act actually occurs. In such cases, why would a spirit choose to be put inside a woman that would abort it? In other cases, one abortion does not mean that spirit will not return later when the time is right. Tell me why your personal belief is any more valid than the beliefs of others? What makes their beliefs wrong and yours right? Nothing, because spiritual beliefs are personal and cannot be scientifically proven or disproven.

And, PA, my class was TOTALLY abstinence only. There was no talk of "if you should slip this is what you do". . .it was Don't have sex until you're married and only then when you want babies. It was complete torture.

Edit: Oh yeah, I've read a rather humorous statement from a pro choice forum. . . If you are pro life, then you should be able to take responsibility for all the unwanted children that are born every year if abortion is outlawed. And actually, Sheri made another really good point. . . You want to hear another big surprise? *gasp* me and my boyfriend are thinking of becoming foster parents when we get married. Because there are already too many children in the world that are unloved, we should take care of them before we add more to the table. Instead of focusing so much on children that aren't born, why not give more attention to the ones that are already here and miserable.

Until a certain point, the "child" is little more than a parasite.
I'm sure you disagree, but neither of us could change the others opinion on the matter.

Well at least there's something we can agree on, even if that is a total disagreement from both our parts

Another lame argument, and here is why: There are millions of married couples, single adults, and homosexual couples who would love to adopt a child. Secondly, don't speak to me as if you know me or know the things I've done in my life. It's a terrible argument and shows immense desperation. Lastly, I assume because you included AIDS in that story you are making some sort of reference to kids being born with horrible diseases that medical professionals knew of before the child was born. I would only ask you if you believe the new rule in America should be to extinguish those we deem "burdensome" to society, much like Hitler and the Nazis did? And who are you to pretend to know the quality of life of anyone with a certain disease unless you have that disease?




Lady, I lived in the bad part of town for most of my life. Only through my ability in school was I lifted out of it. And my mother was a single mother. So, again, another lame argument.



Becoming really desperate now, I see.



Indeed. Questions that have nothing to do with whether or not it is right to extinguish a human life simply because that life is a burden. Your arguments are patently silly. It is along the same lines of saying, "Oh, look here. I found this 5 year old child roaming around the city. He has no family - he's parents just left him here. Maybe we should just kill him for fear that nobody will want him."



I house two children of my own and a child of my drug addict cousin, and I'm only 22 years old. So, again, don't speak to me as if you know anything about me. Also, saying that because A doesn't have any adopted children, he should shut his mouth and not voice his opinion on abortion is censorship. In America, everyone has the right to their opinion, whether you like it or not. If you want to silence someone, go to China.



Yes, it is the mother that puts the biggest biological contribution into this. But that doesn't give her the right to murder. If you women are upset with having to carry children, then you should fax God and Nature and tell them about it. It's not the child's fault. And a child can survive outside the womb at 20 weeks, which is significantly less than 9 months, BTW. Every mother should decide if she wants this, but she should decide before she and the man do the deed. The child should not be held responsible for her (or his) self-neglect. Furthermore, again, don't speak to me as if I'm some far Right Wing Republican who cares immensely about the child in the womb, but sends him out as sheep amongst the wolves once he or she is born. I value life at all levels.




No, she has a right to take some responsibility and use protection. She has the right to give the child up for adoption. And there are so many organizations, religious and non-religious, who will make damn sure she has everything she needs during the pregnancy and after the pregnancy. When I was 19, my girlfriend suspected she was pregnant. We tried and tried to find a place for a free pregnancy test, and finally we did. We went to this Christian outreach center and found out that we were going to have a child. They offered us so much help I couldn't believe it. They figured because we were young that we were considering aborting the child - they were wrong. I had just secured a job writing for a newspaper so was doing well financially for my age. But had I not been financially set, they would have made sure me and my girlfriend was.



I learned in my life that you can get more than one major thing done at a time.



Yes, I know this. I am raising three right now. What's your point?



Unbelievable. So, I am against abortion because I want to tell women what to do? LOL. What a strong, intelligent argument.



As I said earlier, don't talk at me as if you know me.

Sweetp, what a doll you are.. what a beautiful post ... you touched on some amazing things and that is the population and how over crowded we are and how we are not able to do for who we do have, esepcailly kids....

i was once pro life also until my grams sat me down and told me a story about my nother and i share it with the board... my dad died when i was three my mom was 18 years old she had two babies already after she was told she had just lost her husband and we were dirt poor as it was, my dad didnt work and partied instead so often my moms dad brought her food money if she wasnt at the corner store begging for credit just to feed us because my dad would beat her up and take what liittle money she had for booze..few get whatt poverty does to you how it beats you down and beats down others until they themselves live it and I would not wish that on anyone.....

least of all a child, i know what it is to be hungry anyways......she found out she was pregnant my grandmother, my dads mother begged her to keep the baby she had just lost her son and wanted to rasie the child which is understandable...my mom said no she said she couldnt for alot of reasons.... she felt the best thing was to get an abortion ..... .

..My grandmother said it broke her heart but she resepcted my moms decision and said that she knew how hard it was to raise kids with nothing and how it ws not her place to hate my mom or judge her that she stood by her decision because it was her right to make that decision and she would want the same right.......


Sweetp your courage and listening with compassion is amazing ... so few do this so few ever get outside themselves long enough to really hear what is needed and I wish you all the best in your efforts to help foster kids that could use love and time and feel you will be amazing for any kid...

I have many freinds who i just admire who choose not to have kids to be part of the solution, I really think had I of been more enviornmentally aware alot younger i dont think I would of had children either....

How I try and help is in my neighborhood I am one of hte few moms who doesnt have to work and lots of kids have to stay home its too expensive to pay for camps etc.. so i pool my resources and have been able to get a few of my clients to donate their time to these kids this summer we have had lots of kids leanring guitar and i have an open door policy I do not ask for money or even acknowledgement , i give love, food ,time, rides whatever is asked sometimes just having a adult is enough for these kids.....I have also seen some grow up and they still come and visit me and let me know they are doing well......this takes nothing of me but it gives back alot...and beleive me kids respond to quality attention.....

my best freind works full time and has two boys and is a single mom and took in one of the boys friends whose mom is messed up with drugs she clothes this kid,feeds him and gives him a stable base she takes him on vacation and takes him to the doctors she doesnt judlge the mother she steps in and helps and is gald to do it..... end of story....


we are all responsible for the world and cultures we create including the issues we ourselves help perpetuate yet how many really are helping how many see the world as thier family how many look beyond thier relgion, their race, thier lifestyle and are the difference....not enough IMO .

and finally I don't think life begins at conception, now the potential exists to grow to individuated sentient being but without the mother and her body and nutrients it can't survive on its own for me life begins a the point that a bieng can survive on its own......as far as i know there is not one child living today that is below 4 months old.....

even the bible acknowledges that human life is not marked at conception.....


"before you were formed in the womb" (jeremiah 1:5)

you have not countered with an argument you have appealed to emotion ... do you have a counter?? ad hominen doesn't suffice as a counter.........



i dont know you and I have been clear that these are questions it is you who is percieveing it to be something other than.. .


again i ask what are you doing to help?? how are your efforts to change things proactive?????

Thats a very good explanation Android, couldn't have put it better myself.

Answer this question: How many of you were born because of sexual relationships outside of marriage? I'm going to go with world statistics and say quite a lot. How would you feel if your parents decided to kill you, and take away the chance of you having any life at all? The parents always grow to love the child, unless they have some sort of problem, so abortion is really just a 'in the moment' sort of thing, which in time should be dismissed from both parents' minds.

It is not really nice when discussing issues and there is a disagreement to start personally questioning, quizzing, or interrogating the other person to somehow invalidate their position just because they have not done A, B, or C in their personal life. If you disagree you disagree and it matters not if Irish has been to a bad part of town, volunteers, or whatever else. Just saying.

I had some Christian start asking me how often I go to church and other questions just because I told him in the Bible it says one does not have to follow the Bible to go to heaven and he was digging and searching to try and make my view invalid. Like whatever it was so tacky and this guy had no decorum and completely failed at discussing a concept without being able to make it personal. You should have heard him go on about his long list of qualifications as if they made his opinion better than mine lolz

my posit stands feel free to counter ...we already know that i can frame an argument rosewin........


i



listeinng with compassion is what changes lives not barking conmmands at them.. seeking to strip them of thier rights...

I think I did and find it invalid. It matters not if he has done any of those things. You cannot validate or invalidate his position by personal questions when the original topic is a broader issue that has nothing to do with personal issues. You can volunteer all you want and others will still consider abortion baby murder. No one has to help in the humanitarian process of a war to still condemn a war and consider it murder.