............<<>> Have you ever heard of the phrase. I would rather be (Scared) into (Heaven), then to be (Loved) into (Hell). After some studying on Hell, it sure does sound like a awful scary place to go to. P.S. God is love............Joey.

............<<>> (John.1:6-11) - John's Gospel records various testimonies concerning Christ, showing that faith in Him is based upon evidence. The (witness) of John the Baptist, as well as the other evidence, makes the world's rejections of Jesus inexcusable. The phrase (coming into the world)-verse 9. refers to Christ, not to (every man). By His coming He has become (the true Light) to those who believe, but He is also that Light that, in a general sense, enlightens the human conscience and thereby makes all mankind responsible before God. (Rom.1:19, 20).

So as I have said before read the whole chapter to get meaning what God is saying. Don't pick a verse here & there to fit your (Doctrine)............Joey.

Only an idiot misses what is obvious.

yet those who point out the normal are worshipped as genuises.
Do what you whilst
remember there is cost in everything.
your past is just the receipt.


the world is perfect
we just choose to fight and suffer.
that after all is the knowledge we gained in the garden.

All have the spirit in my view (as can be backed by the bible). However not everyone allows it to transform them to become more conscious of it and manifest it. Those who do are more spiritual but this 'more spiritual' is only more apparent than real in my view.

Im not picking verses here and there to fit my interpretation. The bible blatently says:

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:9


It blatantly says that Christ lighteth every man that cometh into the world. It doesnt say it lighteth only a few believers here and a few there. It says

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:9


Every man can get in touch with Christ if they choose to because Christ is within them already waiting for us to turn to him. Does not the bible state :

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John i. 4

Where does it say only believers? Because it says that Christ was life and the life was the light of men do we exclude women? I believe that Christ is within all men and women. Some even interpreted the bible in the old days the women dont have souls on what the bible stated.
It comes down to interpretation. You believe via your understandings that the light of Christ is only within believers. I believe the light of Christ is within everyone based on what I have read on the bible.

I like this. Well said!

Aye that is a great concern. There are others who do not believe in deceiving spirits and will do exactly that. For them all we can do is attempt to show what all the Scriptures say not just one or two.



Concerning that light do not forget 1 John 2.

1 John 2:3

He is that Light but only those keeping his commandments (not the ten but all the Word) are those that know Him.



Not all are being brought into His light.



The light also comes from the Word also called the gospel.



If we were to be in His full presence in our flesh bodies we would simply die...that is His unapproachable light. It is so hard to imagine that the light some find in Him now is not the fullness of it there is much, much more.



Not everyone according to the Word is in the light some are in darkness as we all were.



Too many more scriptures that tell us of the light. You are right though joey the light is Jesus.

I would consider myself more of a gnostic than anything else; but I'm not saying I'm right, mine is just an opinion. God set up the rules yes, but based off of our actions. Through free will we chose to be one with the material, rather than the Source as we originally were. That is original sin. We condemned ourselves to begin with, and what follows is our material incarnations, which is our chance to redeem ourselves, to follow the pattern of Jesus, and to once again achieve at-onement with God. You condemn yourself by continuously choosing the things of flesh over spirit. For instance, if the main pursuit of your life is acquiring wealth, as it is written, you are not storing up your treasures in heaven. You are condemning yourself by making the wrong choices, creating more negative karma, thus creating the need to incarnate again and again. Only by putting God and the things of God first can we return to Him.

I am more inclined to the gnostic teachings of Christianity, and I am also heavily influenced by other religions as well.

For those who think that the light of Christ is only in believers and no one else I thought this be food for thought. A doctor in America denied that the Light of Christ was within the native indians. George Fox challenged him as follows:



And there was a doctor that did dispute with us, which was of great service and occasion of opening much to the people concerning the Light and Spirit. And so opposed it in every one, that I (George Fox) called an Indian because he denied it to be in them, and I asked him if that he did lie and do that to another which he would not have them do the same to him, and when he did wrong was not there something in him, that did tell him of it, that he should not do so, but did reprove him. And he said there was such a thing in him when he did any such a thing that he was ashamed of them. So we made the doctor ashamed in the sight of the governor and the people; and he ran so far out that he would not own the Scriptures.

----Page 642 George Fox's Journal

Only according to you and how you understand the bible. What an absolutist unflexible way of viewing the bible:

'...if people can't use all of the Holy Bible then they shouldn't use none of it.'

So if people dont believe that Christ is the only messiah yet use such biblical statements as:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. ---Mathew 7: 12

They are perverting the word of Christ? Doesnt the bible say:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
--- 2 Corinthians 3:6

The bible to me is more about practicing love for the sake of love and not about mastering scripture. Also who are you to be the authority on how the scriptures ought to be interpreted?

Luther, Calvin, The Catholic Church and many others who interpreted the bible turned out to be great hypocrites. Luther hated Jews with a passion in his later years, Calvin had people executed for free-thinking, and the Catholic Church had their Spanish inquisition. The list goes on. Instead of having an open mind about how the scriptures ought to be interpreted you have a 'holier than thou' and 'know-it-all' attitude towards the beautiful scriptures. Here is a piece of writing I think you ought to consider:


If you, illustrious Prince (the words were addressed to the Duke of Wurtemberg) had informed your subjects that you were coming to visit them at an unnamed time, and requested them to be prepared in white garments to meet you at your coming, what would you do if on arrival you should find that, instead of robing themselves in white, they had spent their time in violent debate about your person--some insisting that you were in France, others that you were in Spain; some declaring that you would come on horseback, others that you would come by chariot; some holding that you would come with great pomp and others that you would come without any train or following?

And what especially would you say if they debated not only with words, but with blows of fist and sword strokes, and if some succeeded in killing and destroying others who differed from them? "He will come on horseback." "No, he will not; it will be by chariot." "You lie." "I do not; you are the liar." "Take that"--a blow with the fist. "Take that"---a sword thrust through the body. Prince, what would you think of such citizens? Christ asked us to put on the white robes of a pure and holy life; but what occupies our thoughts? We dispute not only of the way to Christ, but of his relation to God the Father, of the Trinity, of predestination, of free will, of the nature of God, of the angels,of the condition of the soul after death--of a multitude of matters that are not essential to salvation; matters, moreover, which can never be known until our hearts are pure; for they are things which must be spiritually perceived.

-----Sebastion Castellio


Food for thought?

Not all of us believe that we have a soul or are greater than the sum of our parts, materialists like myself for instance.

I believe that we have a personality, we have a human nature, an ability to empathise, to be compassionate and to do good or evil, but these things all have their origins in the physical and purely material nature of our beings.

............<<>> How can a person be born into the light of Christ. When Christ said in (Romans.3:23-) verse- 23- For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". We are born into (Darkness & it is only when We step into the (Light) & except Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Then We can walk into the (Light/Word of God) of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

Let Me try to break it down so you may understand that the Light that is spoken is Jesus Christ. Christ is the Light & the Light is (The Word of God).

Let us see what the Body, Soul, and Spirit are.

#1- The body of any being is the outward form or house in which his soul and spirit dwell (Gen.2:7,19; John.528-29).

#2- The soul is that invisible part of living beings that feels- the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him self-consciousness and make him a sentient being (Lev.23:43; 1 Sam.22:2).

#3-The spirit is that invisible part of all living beings that knows- the seat of his intellect, mind, and will, and that which gives him self-determination and makes him a free moral agent and a rational being (Cor.2:11; Matt.26:38).

[quote]-Where does it say only believers? (Acts.26:12-18)- Paul Recounts His Conversion.-verse- 17- I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you.-verse-18- To open their eyes, in order to turn them from (Darkness) to (Light), and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of that they may receive forgiveness of their sins. (Darkness) is Satan & (The Light is Jesus). (John.8:1-12)- verse- 12- Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, I Am the (Light) of the world. He who follow Me shall not walk in (Darkness), but have the (Light of life). That tells Me that in (Darkness) there is no (Light) until (Sinners repent they can't step into the (Light) of Jesus Christ).

(John.1:1-13, John's Witness: of the true (Light)- verse-6-There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. verse-7- This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the (Light/Jesus), that all through him might believed. verse- 8- He/John was (not) the (Light), But was sent to bear witness of the (Light)/Jesus. Note: If John was born with the (Light)in Him. Then why did He make the statement He was not the (Light) but said that Jesus was the (Light). verse-9- That was the true (Light) which gives light to every man coming into the world. Before Jesus came all believers lived under the Law. And were born into the Law not the (Light of Jesus). But when Jesus came that changed. He gave us two things. (The Dispensation of Grace) Which has lasted 2,008 years. And the other is (The Light of The Gospel of His Father in Heaven). People are not born into the (Light) they have to seek it and then except or reject it.

In Scripture when the Bible speaks about people having the (Light) of Jesus in them. It means that they are living under the Doctrine of Jesus Christ. It is like a song We sing in Church. (And when He looks at Me He see not what I use to be but He see Jesus). That means Jesus see the (Light/ His word) that He provided to us through His Word. We can't be the (Light) because Jesus says He is the (Light). If we claim to be the (Light) then We would be saying that We are (Gods). So We must only live under the (Light/ the Word of God) that Jesus bought for us on the (Cross).

The only thing We can add to our Body,Soul, and Spirit. Is the Baptism of the (Holy Spirit). Which is spoken in the book of Acts............Joey.

............<<>> I suggest you should really study the (Word of God) before posting something. Even (Sinners) know that (God) sent his only begotten (Son Jesus Christ) to (Redeem) the whole world/Earth. So the World couldn't be (Perfect). Every one who claims to be a Christian should know. (John.3:17)- verse-17- " For God did not send His (Son) into the (World) to condemn the (World), but that the (World) through Him/Jesus might be saved.

That does not sound like (Perfect World) to Me. (Only The Spiritually Blind Can Miss What Is So Obvious).............Joey.

Clovis,
I think it is the "Devine truth" of "His word" that is the light.... So Jesus is the light also because he is the word...and it is truth.

So in essence, to "see the light" is when the truth is revealed and there is revelation...and that would be of the truth f the word....and again , that is Jesus. I just take it a step furthur.

Where did bro Jesus get his light?

Father, Who is the Light? Father.

Bro Came to shine Father's light, Bro said to pray to Father, as did bro.

It's understandable though,Why many think Bro, or a son Is God of this world and Father will say the same.

Love Omnaka

We are all apart Of father's light, The more we shine the brighter Father's light is.

Love Omnaka

.............<<>> That is an awesome presentation. Now that is the way I love to see people use the (Sword of God). Now that is the way to preach the true (Word of God). That is the way to use the (True Word of God) to get your point across. Just keeping using (All The Word of God). And people will always treat you with respect. The main thing is always back up everything you write with Scripture. And live what you preach. And no one can come against you. Because if God is for you then who can be against you. And remember no weapon formed against you shall prosper. And may God be with you.........Joey.

I'm sorry, but I have to offer a friendly disagreement here. Since God is Perfect, His Light is always the same. Only our finite human perceptions of that infinitely tremendous Light can possibly wax or wane.

lol joey I have to disagree. The people hated the early Christians and they hate us now. Respect fails at the window of hatred. We are not of this world.

If God existed, I really don't think he cares about what you do. Even if you were to kill someone, I don't think you would go to Hell. I don't even think Hitler is in Hell. Every action we take on this Earth is so inconceivably minuscule compared to what is proposed to lie beyond. Hitler is probably partying with the Jews in Heaven, all along laughing about their little skirmish back on Earth. Don't worry about Hell. If God exists, he created you with the tendency and ability to do everything you are capable of doing, so unless he is a bully, I really doubt he cares.

Life on Earth may be compared to playing an MMORPG. It's just for fun, and that's probably why we chose to come down here in the first place.

lol a fence fell on me once and took away like 300 hit points from me at least that is the way i explained it to a friend

I really don't think the idea of life being like an MMORPG to be that far fetched if you are to ponder whether or not there is an afterlife and if so, what our purpose here would on Earth would then be.

Think about it, you're all a bunch of immortal souls hanging out in Heaven (Or whatever you'd like to call it) for all of time. Then someone comes up with the idea of making a 'game' where you got to be mortal, and got to experience what that inconceivable notion meant as well as face all the other types of mystery, adventure, and confusion that come with not knowing everything about your world and existence. I would play it. Sure you'd feel a whole bunch of pain and suffering along the way, but hey, that's probably what much of the appeal of it would be.

The afterlife doesn't always need to be such serious business of earthly judgment and heavenly reward.

Christ didnt say that in Romans. St Paul did. Also doesnt the gospel say:

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

---John 1:9

Every man or woman who comes into the world recieves the light of Christ. The bible says so. The bible also says:

Do you not not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destory him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

---1 Corinthians 3:16 -17 (my emphasis)

Does this not blatantly imply that We are all temples of God's spirit? Does Paul say here that only people with certain belief systems are temples of God with His spirit? No. It is a generalization of all people in my view.





I disagree here. I agree that the body is a vehicle for the soul/spirit but dont think that soul/spirit are two disntict things but two words for the same thing that are poetically interchangeable.






This still doesnt actually say anywhere that only believers have the light of Christ in them. God has made all men (and women) in His image. He has lighted them all with at least a spark of the true Light:

That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. ---John 1:9 (my emphasis)

Every man has the light of the true Light (Christ/God) in them. Therefore God is in all.





Because John (like everyone else) though being lighted by the true Light (Christ) wasnt that which did the lighting. Christ 'the word made flesh' was the physical incarnation of the true Light which always existed in the beginning with God as the Word or Logos.




I disagree here. Scripture here says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

---John 1-5 (my emphasis)

Christ has been lighting men since Adam and Eve in the Beginning with God. In Christ/God was life, and the life was the light of men. The same 'light' which Christ lighteth all men who come into the world. The bible clearly implies that life in the beginning is also the light of Christ. John was just here to witness it incarnated 'in the flesh'.




The light of Jesus (as the bible states John 1:9) is already in everyone. It is just that not everyone chooses to act on it and obey it.



P.S I missed out the word 'not' when quoting the bible. Hence the edit.

That's certainly an interesting interpretation. The MMORPG thing strangely, is probably not too far off the mark. However, I rather doubt that Hitler is partying with the Jews in Heaven. I don't think we come here for 'fun', I think we come here as a growth experience. And the reason why I don't think Hitler is chillin in Heaven is because of karma, the law of cause in effect. Every negative action on the material plane, not only creates a physical consequnce, but a spiritual one. His hideous actions would have created so much bad karma that it would probably take hundreds of lives to clear his karmic debt. Now could he be redeemed? Yes. I do believe that. But for someone like that, the road will be absolutely difficult. And I do believe in hell. Hitler, in coming back to the material plane, will be so warped by his karma, right from the start, that he will have the same psychotic and violent tendencies he had before. Now sure, he could start to rise above it, turn away from it; or he could fall right back into the same place. He kills again and again. Let's say for the sake of arguement that he goes that route for a course of lifetimes. His soul will continue to become more corrupted and more unrecognizable to God, until finally his soul ends up in hell, the ultimate seperation from God. Looking at it like this, God didn't condemn Hitler. Hitler condemned Hitler. Who knows? He may already be in hell. Maybe he started off in numerous incarnations as a murderer, a criminal, or whatever..... a progression of evil, further and further apart from Source, and his incarnation as Hitler was his final one, the culmination and ultimate manifestation of a truly evil soul. As Nostradamus said, an Anti Christ. I for one think that this is very likely the case. Hitler will never be in heaven now.

And how would God be a bully? We are the second cause. We were created out of His desire, for self expression, for companionship. We were the first vibration, the first spirit outside of God. And we were perfect, truly created in the image of God, and we were one with God. We were co-creators with Him. And it was OUR desire for self expression that we became encased in the material plane, in the material existence. We seperated ourselves from God. You're right that he doesn't condemn us; no, we do it to ourselves. We chose seperation from Him, and now, in the flesh, people like Hitler choose to seperate themselves even further. God certainly cares what we do. He wants us to be at one with Him, as He always has. He had to become involved in our foolish affairs to try and offer a way to counter what we have done, to give us a road back. That way is Jesus Christ.

Nice post. But the same paradox crops up over and over with all spirituality. If all is God and perfect then we are perfect and God. Therefore why do we have to spiritually strive?

I ask this question philosophically because I myself still believe myself to be way less than perfect and strive humbly to understand my inner self. However as the mystics say 'All is One'.

............Remember My friend; There is hope for everyone. Jesus died for all of us. Even those who hate us. I thank God that people did not give up on Me. If people would have given up on Me I would have been lost forever. Also remember We can't see what God is doing in the Spiritual realm in people lives. Only God can bring change in peoples lives not us. Before I gave My life to Jesus Christ I hated Christians just as much as Paul did. But that change when I step into the (Light) and gave My life to Jesus. When I look at people all I see is soul to be won for the Kingdom God. And if someone is still alive there is hope for them. I only give up hope if someone dies. Then I move on to the next one that God gives to Me to work with. I will fight to win soul for the Kingdom of God until the day I die. I am sorry if I upset but I try to see people us Jesus does. We as Christian must try to bring people out of the (Darkness) in to the (Light of Jesus Christ)................Joey.

Aye well I agree with most of your points but do not have the same evangelistic zeal. People can choose or not it is not my job to convince them. If they never see nothing special in me and want to investigate what it is then I have failed. Words are best saved for when someone asks and if they want to hear no more then it is time to dust my shoes even if I remain friends with that person.

I refuse to try and convince someone of the Truth as we see it through the flesh. The Spirit will either work through me to those who I come into daily contact with or I have failed. The Spirit is the witness not my words or convincing arguments or encouragement. Words are important to me when they are used to show love and not used to condemn. That is as far as I give stock to words in the missionary department. Once someone wants to hear though I have many words about God who is Jesus who is the Spirit who is God.

I will not pain for a world who rejects God of the Israelites. They are not my concern.

Some do care and I take no issue with them. But there is a fine line between what they do and operating in the flesh which can lead to bringing someone to Christ but they mightl find and empty experience lacking in Spirit and then we have truly lost them. Operate in the Spirit as much as you allow the Spirit and as much as the Spirit decides to work though you. Our only choice in the matter is to be open to the Spirit and it will decide who to touch...not me.

Because God gave us Free Will. Where's the paradox?

Right on. These are OUR choices, not HIS. The two must not be confused.

If you consider God as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then I think a problem arises from this choice thing. You can have free will, and still live happily in Heaven with God without having to undergo some sort of trial like Earth. He can do anything, which means the souls that are living in misery without God's presence do not need to be living that way. The only way you can rationalize this is that God has created this trial, and us, for his entertainment; and the problem with that is that apparently it amuses God to see people in misery, separated from him. Something is suspicious about that if you ask me.

If I wanted to desperately keep my faith, the way I would reconcile it is to say that God is probably not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Maybe he's really strong, but not that strong.

However, the way I actually DO reconcile it, and the way that I think it shows itself to be pretty obviously, is to say that it is a man-made concept and a man-made God.

Because we are all a part Of this light (Spirit) it (God's Love) can Grow to Infinate Proportions. You are corect One does not have to be apart of this love, For God's love to continue in to infinity, There are of us In the family who are apartOf, That Good and Love will Grow for ever, no matter what anyoe chooses. Only Love creates.

Love Omnaka

if you must know what is right and what is wrong well here is a thought that you can take to heart or not, useally when one sin's it is not what one put's into thier mouth but what comes out of thier mouth,don't lye ,or be a theif . the bottum line is when the holy spirit comes and judges you for you and what you are, well thats a personal exp- and sorrey for your luck...... and don't forget that he is slow to anger.....

Don't worry about hell. Yes, you will sometime have to face consequences for your actions (either good or bad ones) and you should just man up and take responsibility for them. Are you forced to follow God's laws for living? Not at all. But is your life not better and more complete when you do? It most certainly is, it's like an unending fountain of life springing up before you.

If God is all then how can there be individuals to have free will?

"This is the verdict"



16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

Therefore if you believe in the light but do evil deeds then you wont be saved. But if you do good deeds and unto others as they have done unto you but dont believe that God sent his Son then you are saved because God is love and whoever knows love knows God. One doesnt have to believe in an exclusive messiah to know love which is God.

Having faith in Christ alone is accounted for rightiousness. We are not saved by works, or being good. According to the bible there is no one who is "good". But from reading this scripture alone, I can see why you would think that. But even in this scripture the light is meant to expose your evil deeds, and you become reconciled through repentance and faith.

and what of the evil done by man that God caused people to do = where do they go ?

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


In this vrs, we can see that even those who are saved, are corrupted, its just that there deeds have been exposed through the light, and by faith alone we are saved.

I dont think that God cause them to do anything that wasnt in there hearts to begin with. You notice in all those times where God "cause men to sin", it was cause of there disobediance tward him to begin with. I think its more that he removed his laws from there hearts, knowing they were going to do whatever they wanted anyway.

Wrong.

example -

God manipulates man's free will, by hardening Pharaoh's heart , making him 'evil' to serve Gods purpose.


(Rom 9:14-24 NIV) What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! {15} For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." {16} It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. {17} For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." {18} Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. {19} One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" {20} But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" {21} Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

This is the way I see it to. The Bible offers a plan of Salvation. One can reject it or not. But that does not mean those who reject the plan are lost for as long as they are good and have love for others they have done well as long as they do not have a guilty conscience because anyone who breaks the law which is written on the heart will. Romans 2:12-16 make that clear. On the other hand one can accept the plan of Salvation and fall short of it. They are then lost. The plan of Salvation is not a formula which works without the Spirit though and no one can conquer sin without the Spirit. The plan of Salvation is the indwelling of the Spirit and those who have it are His and that is the way, the Truth, and the light and no one can go to the Father except through Jesus. But those outside of that plan are not His but as I said before they can still go to heaven. In the end for me it is all about if you know better do better no matter what belief system or belief set you might have. At least that is my view. You might disagree but I think more or less we are on the same page in many areas.

God has blessed you with wisdom brother. I am the same way. I make sure that those around me on a day to day bases know of my love for Christ. But if im rejected in anyway, I back right off. Then I just do my best to be a example through my life. I offten find the same people who reject the truth are the ones who come to me for truth in times of trouble. I try to do my best to let the spirit work through me, but on his terms. You cant force feed the truth to people, cause it will only bring them further from the truth then they were before hand. Personaly the spirit hasnt brought many to the truth through me, so the few that have I rejoice in abundance when they do.

You believe than man can have salvation without the saving grace of Christ, through good works? How can you reconcile that through scripture? Does not the scripture say that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and the only way to make peace with the law is through the blood of Christ?

So I can act like Hitler and do things as bad as Stalin and still be saved eternally in paradise because I believe in Christ? Wow that is a just God. What about the Dalai Lama? Does he get punished for being a good person that doesnt hold on to the 'Idea' or 'Belief' that Christ died for his sins?

You know Luther who believed in justification by faith notoriously promoted prejudice toward Jews and hated them with a passion?



Yes expose evil deeds so we can change our ways and be Good. As the Bible says:

7:But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8:If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9:If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

---1 John 1:7-9 (my emphasis)

If we do good acts because we walk by the light of Christ within us and are therefore cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness then we are good in my view.

However I myself dont believe that I am good. I still have a long way to go. But those who dont believe in Christ but do unto others as they have them do unto themselves are more good than someone who believes in Christ but is quite willing to do the opposite of loving their neighbour.

Maybe it is not 'salvation' it is definitely not the 'plan of salvation' but Romans 2 clearly says for those who do not believe the law is written on their heart and their own conscience will accuse or excuse them. There are babies who die who are born into sin but their conscience will be clean. There are millions of people who lived throughout history who never heard of the Word. Millions who lived outside of Israel when the knowledge of the One True God was only known to Israel and a few others. What about them? They cannot be instantly damned and not just because I want it to be like that but because Romans 2 tells me it is like that. It is something I learned in church that really change my thinking. It allowed me to stop judging people because thinking 'hey they do not follow the Bible they are going to hell' is judging people. I am sure others might not agree but I see it clearly in the Word and that makes it hard for me to deny.



Either way thank you for your comments and it is great we are of the same mind when it comes to witnessing to others. The Spirit is that which gives the ultimate testimony. A man can go before a crowd and not say one word and if he is deeply moved by the Spirit will have touched more hearts than one reciting even the best of biblical knowledge.

Wrong info deleted.

I agree with this. However getting to the Father through Jesus isnt going through some 'belief formula' or 'creed' but by the light which Christ lighteth every man who comes into the world. If they walk by this light then they will intuitively be shown the way to salvation. They dont even have to read the bible or know of Christ's outward life. It all depends on how you interpret scripture. Some interpret scripture to mean that it is through the belief system that Christ died for our sins that we get through to the Father. I and others interpret it to mean that they only through finding Christ within that one reaches God or enlightenment. The light of Christ within doesnt even have to be called the light of Christ within. It could be called atman, conscience, etc

It is still the same light of Christ.




We do agree with many things. Personally I believe God expresses itself through various inspired writings like the Bible, Bhagavad Gita, Tao Te Ching, Pali scriptures etc etc

They all have the same message but just clothed under different symbols and words.

And that faith doesnt have to be in Christ as an exclusive messiah. That faith can be the faith in the inner light of Christ or in Brahman.


P.S That faith could be faith in your works.

Actually I believe I was wrong there BNW. I looked at the Word and it did not back up what I thought. Guess I learn better everyday ^__^



It says we are not saved by faith alone. One who has faith will have works. If someone can show me where it says we are not saved by works alone please show me.