I have to agree with Omnaka and Thisisnotmyname in that social stratification and the scales of justice being inequitable lead to many terrible things. We can close our eyes to that and pretend it does not affect us but when others not far from our own homes or maybe on the other side of town live in a hell it is all our responsibility in some small way. When a society, a government, or a people breed killers, sure they are at fault...but they are not the only ones. The hate that hate made. The lives we consider as throwaways will in turn consider other life as not precious and take it. No one in a community with drugs and guns actually have plants that produce drugs or guns. Someone is profiting and it is maybe them we should take a closer look at...

It truely amazes me the amount of Death row inmates that fine God. Even beg for forgiveness even after killing someone. I guess I would fine God if someone was about to stick a needle in my arm. I was going to visit the Devil. I wonder they truly fine God in there heart or is it just words. I would hate to be in God shoes.

If someone accepts Him there is no difference in what sin they committed before. Society might differentiate between sins if they even believe in them and assume murder is something worse than anything, I agree it is, but in God's eyes there is no difference between murder or hatred within one's heart, the fact that He can cleanse both for those who truly believe is also something I agree with. The true miracle is not going to heaven the true miracle is being on this earth cleansed of hatred and the want to do murder for those who have one or the other or both. People think of terms of oh they ask forgiveness now they get a one way ticket according to the system. No one thinks about how God can be applied to our lives in the here and now to transform us into better people. For those who can do that all on their own without God props to you some of us need Him to be better mkay.

Clovis, yours was a good arguement against capital punishment. I really respect that. I myself am sort of on the fence about it. On the one hand, I see that it is cruel and savage, yet aren't the ones who commit the crimes in the first place? The only thing, I feel, that justifies it is more as a deterrent than anything else. Most people naturally have a fear of death, and the fear of something like the electric chair might actually help reduce crime over all. Its a frightening thought, to be executed. If I felt like killing someone, I'd seriously think twice about it. But as you say, the Bible is more about turning the other cheek. Justice is divine, not in our hands. Their karma will catch up to them; its not my place to exact justice.

Now in regards to the recent debate in here, I think both really occur. Society is clearly an influence, especially in poor urban areas where crime is so prevalent. Its a draw, they think its a way out, a way to make money, etc. Still others, I believe have a natural tendency towards criminal behavior. How naturally? I think its karmic. If you were a serial killer, say, in a past life, that karma will still be there in this one. It doesn't just evaporate. One has to work past it, to make up for it somehow; and some, just fall right back into the same pattern again. Its just like drug addiction.

I understand your point and see where your coming from but let me ask you.....
A man takes a family hostage and ends up killing mom, dad, daughter, son. He had a terrible life but he does know right from wrong he knows he is wrong in taking these lives but pulls the trigger anyway. So who was there who pulled the trigger ending this families life? Society, No He pulled that trigger not us. In that moment he had a choice to do the right thing or take their lives and HE chose to take their lives.
Bigotry and racism or rampant everywhere but we as a society can not blame crime on it 100%, true the effects may have bearing on the crime but as I say in the end its only the guy with the gun or shovel etc. that commits the act.
Take a homeless person who wants to have food and shelter do they go out and take it? Most don't even though its our place as human beings not to allow people to go homeless and hungry. The homeless man is wronged by us allowing him to be on the street hungry but he doesn't feel the need to go out and rape and kill.
I do agree that we as a society need to do better when it comes to discrimination, no one person is any better than another.



The lives we consider as throw aways are the ones who have thrown their own lives away by committing horrible crimes. Now we say we do not rehab death row inmates well perhaps we should start looking into why the death row inmates are there to begin with. I see the majority here thinks that circumstances led them there and while that may be true the crime itself was committed not by us but the criminals. Every single one of us is wronged in some way during our lifetime, it is who we are as to how we handle such. Take the black child that has never been given anything in his life that succeeds and makes something of himself to say one can't do that is a misjustice to those who do. There are poverty neighborhoods everywhere and we should try and eliminate them but the ones who choose the easy way out and rob and kill are the ones who are bringing society down a notch. Why do you think these neighborhoods remain, because the ones who do take the easy way out make it harder on the ones trying to make better lives for themselves and others.



I think one has many chances to find God and when one chooses to pick the last day of their life to finally seek God they are short changing themselves. I am not sure how many are truly sincere but I would hope that a murderer in his/her last days found a better person in themselves.



The death penalty is no longer a deterrent it is used for political gain and revenge in a sense. If you were to ask any death row inmate if they thought of the death penalty before committing their crimes you would get a resounding no. Before a person murderers another they have a choice to stop, now do you really think one is going to consider the death penalty when they choose to murder that man or woman or child?


Always a pleasure


I also wanted to address Omnaka's post about prison treatment, yes it is a violation of human rights they way inmates are treated and it is very wrong. They are there to carry out there punishment not to be punished on top of their sentence. The people who work in corrections allow the horrible treatment and it should be stopped.

I am not in the fence. I totally believe in capital punishment. I believe an inmate has the right to fine religion on death row. I believe god can forgive him. An inmate gets out of prison a born again christian. 2 days later he kill and entire family. Then on death pray to god to forgive him. Glad I am not god.

True enough. The penalty for murder must be servere, whether it is capital punishment or not. I just don't feel life in prison is enough anymore. Yeah, I'm sure being in prison sucks, but is it really enough to fit the crime? The death penalty makes sense. You take a life, you surrender your own. Those people shouldn't be getting back on the streets. Life in prison in solitary confinement even would be better. Something stiffer....

Tell me about. I lost a brother, is wife. and there son. To a born again christion. I watch him beg for his life when they a needle in his arm. I love Texas. Justice Served.

I have read a lot about the death rows in the US and most if not all are in solitary confinement and only get out for showers or visits. They have no human contact sensory deprivation as it is called. The death penalty does make sense in you take a life you give your own. Think about it these murderers who did take someones life are locked away and have only their death to look forward to. They know when, where and how they will die. They are punished from the time they step on death row, as it should be because they took a life. It does not really matter if we as a society played a role or not because they and them alone committed the murder and they have to pay the consequence. I have also read about mistreatment on death row and I don't know what to believe as far as the stories go but if this dehumanizing treatment does occur I think it is wrong. These people have been sentenced to death they are paying for their crime so the beatings and food deprivation and deplorable living conditions are inhuman. Some say well they deserve such treatment for their crimes but this is America and I can't believe we would stand for anyone being treated in such a way. We are and should behave better than the criminals did in committing their crimes.


Always a pleasure

Wolfnight, I am so sorry for your loss.
You are directly involved in this issue as you did lose someone very important to you, so what do you think about the Canadian coalition trying to have the death penalty removed and they also have a web page dedicated to the death row inmates so that we as a society see their "human side". Does this anger you that these inmates have the rights your loved ones did not have.
I am sorry if this is bringing up issues you would rather not discuss and totally understand if you wish to bow out.


Always a pleasure

For the 1st time I disagree with you Sandee. These humans on death for murder are lower than any animal. A Human know the difference between right and wrong. They get what they deserve.

This is a good song about death row:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6RML0YHOm8

Has biblical implications in my view.

Sandee, your hypothetical example ignores the "big picture" in its entirety. There is far more to most murders than someone simply picking a random person off the street and deciding that they are going to die. As a matter of fact, most killers when studied extensively would show a very clear method or reason behind each killing. The ones who don't usually show another reason entirely: they are insane. In either case you have a person whose views of what is "right" or "wrong" have been heavily blurred. As you said in your last paragraph of the above, nobody on death row right now was thinking about the possibility of being given the death penalty when they committed their crime. So that should tell you right there - the last thing on their minds is a decision between what somebody else would consider "right" or "wrong."

Crime is a process, not a bunch of random acts. By the time the hypothetical killer in your hypothetical situation reaches the hypothetical place you are describing, the choice to kill that hypothetical family had been made long ago. It was long before he had entered their house that he carried with him the intent to kill them. And that decision would have been preceded by countless other experiences in that killer's life, some of which he would have had control over, but many of which he would have little or no control at all over. As I said before, a crime is not some bizarre improvised answer to the question "what would you like to do today?". It is far more likely to have been planned out for at least a week if not more.

The hypothetical situation is nice in a lot of discussions, but this is one of the discussions that hypotheticals are completely null and void, unless they are so thick and in-depth that you may as well be using a real person. People are complex. The murder of people is as complex as everyone involved.

You do not make an example of the value of life and the horror of taking away a life by killing.
If it is not self defense then it is revenge and nothing more.

In a situation where they cannot be contained or maintained without the possibility of them escaping or harming others in containment, that is the only time I could see any justification for it.

I just wanted to apologize to Wolfenight as I had no idea he and his family had personally gone through such a horrible experience.
When ones family and loved ones are taken from them they too suffer from the criminals actions and should be held in the highest regard.
We think about the death row inmate and the ones who were murdered but how often do we consider the loved ones left to deal with their loss and anger. The victims families are left with a lot of issues and pain and in my opinion forgotten about in the process of arguing whether the death penalty is good or bad for society. How many times are the victims families asked how are you coping and is there any thing we can do to lessen your pain. I for one have realized that there is a lot more to this issue than whether or not the death penalty should be used or not. All too often we get wrapped up in the issue itself and forget about the lives the crime has ruined. The victims of murder or not only the one murdered but their family and friends and loved ones too and I will always remember that from now on.
If you can imagine losing a loved one to a violent crime try and imagine the pain and anger that it brings. If I were in that position I would not really care if the inmate found God in the end or not and that is not the forgiving nature a christian should have but I am only human.
I again apologize to Wolfenight for any pain this topic may have brought him.


Always a pleasure

No problem Sandee. it was long ago.

That is even more frighting than one who takes a life in the moment, for one to sit an plan the murder out and then go out and commit it then they are FAR more dangerous and far more suitable for the electric chair. For one to methodicly plan the murder then go there and commit to it by doing it they are really truly evil in my opinion. Now the ones who go in to rob,rape etc. they usually commit the murder in that moment and really had no plans to do it but the situation escalated to that point. They are the murderers I have been thinking about in my post, but the ones who take the time to actually plan in their mind ahead of time has plenty of time to back out and do the right thing are just evil to the core and no amount of rehabilitation or intervention will change them. Now you say right and wrong can be clouded but honestly now who on this earth does not know it is WRONG to take another's life? NO ONE! We all have different morals and values but we all know to take another's life is definitely wrong! I get the point your trying to make that the circumstances play a part in the killers decision to murder but unless they are just insane they know it is wrong to kill and in my opinion have the power in themselves to choose not to kill.
I agree 100% ""The murder of people is complex as everyone involved""
Every situation is different and every one ends in someones death by another.


Killing for punishment of killing. I get the point here. It does not make much sense and I have said the only reason the death penalty is still around is revenge and politics. It no longer if ever served as a deterrent, it serves its purpose for the politicians to say we are tough on crime and will kill you if you choose to murder. I believe all murders have different circumstances yes but the end result is still a life that was taken by someone who could have chose not to do so.
I think life on death row is punishment far greater than death and most death row inmates will say they look forward to death to escape death row, so maybe the death penalty is too good for them. They should have to sit there on death row till they die of natural causes and live with what they have done to the victims and their families left behind to deal with their crimes. Not only the victims families but the inmates as well, they have to deal with what their son,daughter,spouse,brother etc. has done too and deal with their life being taken and life for them isn't ever the same either.


Always a pleasure

It is a known fact that a great many of the people sitting on death row are either mentally handicapped or mentally ill. According to a 1987 report by the Clearinghouse on Georgia Jails and Prisons, 20% of that state’s death row inmates were either severely mentally handicapped or of below normal intelligence.

This is a problem, because in America insane people aren’t supposed to be executed. According to the 1986 Supreme Court decision Ford v. Wainwright, a person has to be certified as “competent” before they could be executed — meaning that they had to understand that they were about to be killed and why.

This has lead to some interesting ways of establishing competency (when officials have bothered at all). One of the most ethically challenging was a case in Louisiana where officials forcibly medicated an insane death row inmate in order to kill him. zSB(3,3)
http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagea...imedia-basic_js

The medication, after all, made him “competent” enough to die. The fact that he apparently wasn’t “competent” when he committed the crimes didn’t seem to matter.


But why is it wrong to execute insane people? Such a prohibition makes sense under the premise of a Christian theological system. After all, if a person isn’t mentally competent, then they cannot repent of their sins before they die, meaning that they will go to hell without any prospect of heaven. If, however, they are kept alive, then there will remain at least the possibility of a change which will allow the person to repent. But if you don’t believe in souls, there is no moral difference between executing sane and insane people.


For atheists, however, such a consideration simply isn’t relevant — and it shouldn’t be relevant to a justice system which is secular rather than theocratic. As a matter of fact, it is questionable whether or not an atheist can legitimately support capital punishment at all.

For the average theist, imposing the penalty of death can be made to seem less horrible by the fact that it only terminates the body, not the soul. Damnation, not death, is the ultimate penalty — and that would be imposed by God, not the state. Indeed, having to face the death penalty may be the path which leads the condemned person to salvation.

This perspective is not something which I am simply making up. Instead, it constituted an important facet of the defense of capital punishment for a long time. But it is not a defense which can be used by secular courts of secular people. Perhaps the most famous explication of this position was made by Albert Camus:

When an atheist or skeptical or agnostic judge inflicts the death penalty on an unbelieving criminal, he is pronouncing a definitive judgment that cannot be reconsidered. He takes his place on the throne of God, without having the same powers and even without believing in God. He kills, in short, because his ancestors believed in eternal life.” A religious person who uses capital punishment does not thereby judge that the condemned person is irredeemable. The atheist who uses capital punishment, however, does make such a determination — eliminating someone’s presence on Earth is effectively the same as stating that rehabilitation and redemption are impossible or just undesirable. But what atheist is competent enough to make such a judgment?
http://atheism.about.com/od/capitalpunishm...th_insanity.htm



The reason of insanity or mental issues are comman in defense, does the beliefs of the judge or jury have a place in deciding a murderers fate on death row?

if a person is dangerous to society they should be eliminated, sane or insane... IMO

Yes, when they are a danger to society they need to be taken from society. Mental illness is real and I am not saying it isn't but when one claims they are mentally ill to escape the consequences of their actions that they were fully capable of doing it becomes an issue.
They are too many bleeding hearts trying to claim mental illness or life circumstances committed the horrible crimes committed instead of the individual that actually committed the crimes. Like the Canadians who formed a web site for the death row inmates so that we could see they are ''human beings''. No one is claiming they are not human beings but they do have to pay for their crimes.


Always a pleasure

It seems you have a take on this that is close to mine. We differ in that I consider the 'throw aways' not just those on death row but all who live in the most direst conditions, not just economically but socially (tis one thing to be poor but another to live in a community where you see many including your nation do not value you add onto that the emotional horror some are more likely to live in within those areas but the rich have their own trials too in this regard), and it is these people we consider (even if we do not label them our social system proves otherwise) throwaways.

Sure someone has a chance to make it but they are fighting an uphill battle. I consider it just being honest and seeing society does set them up for failure. I learned this in sociology class a good while back: the maxim is in America everyone has an equal chance. But every maxim has a reverse and equally true maxim and in America not everyone can make it...there just is not enough slots with the way our economy is.



You know wolfknight I do not begrudge you that. I will quickly touch on a few points. Some seek revenge and others seek justice. Not sure what camp you are in or if both. God tells us not to seek or want revenge done but that is something my God tells me so no one else has to follow that or be forced to. God tell us not to murder and since it is not self defense but after the fact I see the DP as murder. But you did not murder anyone the state did and in the way God said if you live by the sword you die by the sword well when a murder is cut down either by the state or another murderer out on the streets I agree that their time had come. So in that regard those who applaud the DP are not wrong but that does not mean I myself have to support the DP over this fact.

Taking God somewhat out of the equation now since the Bible does not tell us strictly if we should support it or not it then falls onto personal belief. Ethically I would feel bad supporting the deaths of so many, so many I do not even know and with the way the system is some who are innocent are sentenced to death. That is two problems right there. One it is a death machine I cannot support and the other it is not a system without error and an error and taking of an innocent life based on shoddy evidence, eager prosecutors, and someone just being born in the wrong side of town, doing the wrong things such as other crime, might be said well he must be a murderer too but in some cases we cannot truly prove it even and since the system has its faults some slip in and not many cry foul.

What if someone murdered anyone of my loved ones? Would I cry foul if I really felt they were guilty? Probably not. Would I ask or campaign the state not to murder them using the DP? Probably not. Does that make me an imperfect Christian because revenge was in my hear...most likely but find one perfect Christian, heck find one perfect person, and that person is no longer alive. There are no perfect people or Christians. Does it make me a hypocrite? Maybe in a narrow sense of the definition because overall I still do not or would not support the DP machine and the murder of others whom I do not know their cases just because I would want justice in my case. If anything the want for revenge might never quell within me, I would hope it does through prayer I could forgive someone who hurt my loved one in time, it would be hard, it might even be after they have passed, but if not I would rather seek revenge myself on them personally than have the state do it for me. Does that lead to an eye for an eye? Yes. Should I not want that? Yes, but I am not perfect and I know me, the me who is not perfect, the me that is being worked on little by little to become better.

So overall I have complex emotions and an outlook on the DP. It is so easy to say well shame on those who support it but I know that is just being sanctimonious. Do people have the right to support the death penalty? Sure and it could be for any number of reasons. For me and myself I do not support capital punishment especially not in Texas which executes more than any other state. Is the state of Texas great? You betcha!

For those wanting to explore this issue from my eyes Amnesty International has always been an organization I have morally and emotionally supported and they have some of the best arguments and statistics regarding the death penalty as well as a whole plethora of other social issues in regards to other travesties of justice and use of excessive force.

Also I heard a very good interview on NPR the other day by Carol Pickett who was for 13 years a chaplain that ministered to those on death row in Texas. He offers a very valid perspective and is also behind an up and coming documentary entitled At the Death House Door. I do not believe I heard him on Fresh Air but here is a link to a 39 minute interview on that program. I encourage anyone interested in this issue to listen to the man.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...ft=1&f=1003

Sorry, Said I was done with this thread but I guess I was wrong,...

Paying For ones crimes can ammount to living in Prison for life thinking anbout what one did, and maybe being freed because it was found out later that a person never did the crime to begin with.

That takes them off the streets and does not Take away their chance at having a change of heart while still alive, Or incarnate.

Father can send a spirit back to incarnate again, Man cannot.

That's why unless Father tells someone to kill, which he does not, it is a good Idea to learn forgiveness, which will help your spirit more than revenge ever would.

I posted a while back How I learned forgiveness while in Jail for the one who put me there, I will find it and Post it again here seems like a good place for it.

We have No hate in our Heaven, None at all, and after this life One has harbored Hate for His Brother, God's other son, He will not be with us, This is not done by God, it is done out of self accountability. So it behooves all to learn to forgive.

This is not a threat, Just a suggestion.

For the one with hate in his heart for another will not feel right joining with Fathers love light.

Forgiveness is Key.

I know it is hard, especially for those who think this is the only life there is.

This is just a short stop in the Eternal spirits education.


Love Omnaka

Umm...maybe it's because you're focusing only on the new-christians who come off of death row? Not all death row converts convert to xianity, many go to other religions.

or we could save the taxpayers a lot of money, and help these dangerous monsters onto the next step of their spiritual education...

This was a Letter I wrote to a Brother Diamond Geeser a couple years ago, Maybe it will help someone Else.

Dear Diamond, I guess, It is really a lot of things that can make one, or help one Forgive a great injustice.
My Favorite is That the energy expelled, in Hating someone is Negative Energy, and Not only did , What your brother do, Get you worked, But He is still working you after the fact.
This internal Beating your self up can cause even more damage than you know, It can cause diseases like cancer and the like. It creates a sickness of the soul/Spirit. Any time I have ever exacted revenge, on someone ,I have always felt very Bad after, It is never sweet like they say, because all people on this planet are really my br4other and I cringe at the thought of Really hurting My bro and Our Family, Through the lessons I have learned I have conquered all with Love. My signature says allot. Forgive The Body and Love The Soul Because The Spirit of the soul Belongs to God, And God loves all God’s Children, Also You can take heart, that you have not done revenge, Its what separates us, From Them, the ones that can do these bad things to their brother, And I know you don't want to be like that unparticular guy.
Also when you get tired of Hating Him and are able to Forgive him, Others around, that know your situation, That love you, see that you really do love the guy, enough to forgive, then, All the bros and sisters watching
get to see unconditional love at work and a positive thing makes a full circle, And all get to have learned a thing or two about a thing or two.
In essence you are saving, the same way, brother Jesus did, By teaching Love By example.
I’m sending something I wrote and posted along time ago.


This the short version of what happened.
I was sent to prison for something that I did not do. I lay awake at night in my bunk devising ways to kill the guy that put me there I hated him so much!

Every night for the first five mos, in there, I would dream of killing this guy a different way every time. I would take him out on a boat and gaff him, take him in to the woods and shoot him and every time I pulled the trigger or stuck the knife in I would wake up screaming, waking up the whole jail.



I was not getting any sleep and people in the chow line would say, had that same dream again huh bro? I would say yes, sorry that I woke every one up.

Then one night before going to sleep, I cried so hard in my cell, why God why? What is to become of me, why am I in jail for something I did not do? Even my own mother did not believe my innocence, when I asked her to bail me for $ 50,0000.It would have meant her signing over her house so I could fight it not wearing a prison orange jumpsuit and she said it was all she had to leave us kids when she died. I wanted my inheritance now! Besides I was innocent and was not going to run.



I was crying so hard I could not see straight. Then I heard it, a small voice, packed with a lot of amps said to me; it’s going to be alright don’t worry, forgive.

.It could have been only one word, “Love” and it would have had the same effect


on me.




I stopped crying, because I knew it was God that was talking to me. He had never talked to me in a voice before. When I was a young runaway at 11 I used to ask for signs and get them, to help me with direction, but never a voice.

My cellmate was sleeping on the top bunk snoring and I wanted to hit him so I could hear what else God had to say I was sure there was more but there wasn’t.
I stayed awake for a while longer and realized that there was a reason for this happening. I did not know what it was but it must be in Gods plan, and I always said, God thy will be done. So some how I figured I forgive him, and I mean I really did forgive him. This was way bigger than me being in jail for a crime I did not commit, if God is talking to me. So forgive I did from the bottom of my heart.



I slept fitfully for the first time in months, what a relief.

No more killing dreams. Yes I did it, part of “it” was the realization that my hatred was affecting me more than it was the guy that did this to me. It was like being jailed inside of a jail.

This is the biggest lesson that I have ever learned.



When I finally got out of Jail I saw my neighbor, the guy that did this to me, on the dirt road with a flat tire, while driving by one day.

So I pulled over to ask if he needed any help. And he turned white, when I got out of my truck and proceeded to change his tire.

While doing so I explained to him that I forgave him for what he did, and the big lesson that I had learned while in there, I think I even thanked him.



I could tell by his body language that he did not believe me, and was waiting for the knife in the back trick. Only it never came.

When this neighbor got his water cut off three weeks before Christmas, I helped him dig a huge puna’wai, (water reservoir) the size of a swimming pool, with a bucket and shovel, then he believed and we shared a beautiful Christmas together, me and his family.



This to me is one of the biggest miracles to ever happen to me. Thanks for listening.

And I hope and prayer, that none of you have to learn this the way that I did, but Gods will be done.



Love Omnaka

Ps- everyone on The mountan who knew what this bro did to me Got to see Unconditional love at work, True faith in action, It changed alot of People, and Hearts.-O

But any decision God makes will be the correct one.

Ya like how can an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent ever make a 'mistake'?

Clovis, what is the real difference between revenge and justice? They both end in the same result the meaning of the two is so close. The throw aways in our society are labeled as such because of their circumstances and in my opinion with hard work and perseverance they can overcome. The inmates that are labeled throw aways are labeled as such by their actions and though they may have had that throw away status before committing their crimes they still had a choice to fight and overcome their circumstances instead of choosing the life of crime. I know many here believe they had no other choices available to them but I don't see it that way, there are too many other options that are available today. I have listened to the link you posted and many more on the subject and I think we as individuals can decide on our own what we believe to be cruel and unusual punishment and of course that view would change if we were directly involved and had one of our loved ones taken by violent crime. You are not imperfect for thinking you would want justice if it were your loved ones that were taken just human. We all want justice for lives that were taken through violent crime but we don't want to be involved with the punishment unless were directly involved. I have read that some victims families have requested that the death row inmate be spared but it is a very few that request this. As Omnaka points out too there are innocent people in our jails and prisons but there are also guilty people out on the streets. Our justice system is not perfect we can only hope and pray that the legal system does their jobs and knows the difference. In researching death row inmates and their last statements I have read that quite a few were made to confess to crimes they did not commit by prosecutors. It is not a perfect system but we just have to trust they do honest work, what else can we do?


In reading over 500 last statements of the condemned on death row I came across a few that claim Allah as their savior other than that they all claimed God and Jesus Christ as their savior. I did not read even one that claimed any different. There were maybe 20 that did not claim a personal savior at all.




Omnaka, I must applaud you on being an exceptional person. I don't know that I could be so forgiving to one who has done such horrible things to me, you are a truly special person and I would imagine God is so very proud you.
I can see your point about the death row inmates and as you also point out how do we really know they are guilty before taking their life. I ask you what about the ones who are without a doubt guilty, the ones who are truly guilty of treating life as if it were not important. The inmates on death row who took defenseless innocent lives for their pleasure, they destroyed the victims life and their families left to pick up the pieces and try and go on. They deserve their punishment and not only the victims and their families but the inmates families as well are left destroyed by their actions don't they deserve what is coming to them?


Always a pleasure

Omnaka, what profoundly beautiful words, brother. Frankly, I am almost speechless. This post truly moved me; more than any I've ever read since I've been on this forum. This is precisely what it means to be a man of faith. I can only hope that eventually I too will be able to turn the other cheek in this way. I'm getting better, but I'm not there yet by a long shot lol. I flicked a guy off for cutting me off in traffic this morning, when I was running late to work. The stress got my temper flowing. Stupid. I knew it was stupid right after I did it. Regretted it. And then I read something inspirational like this, and it makes me think, dude, what are you doing?
Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Okay I'll be a bit of a b****** and post something that doesn't add anything.

Whenever I read the title of this thread "Christianity on death row, condemned seem to always find God" I always think: "Of course they find him, if you want to find god you should look for him in the one place he should be."

Thanks Brahman, I still lose it over trivial things too, I'm a carpenter, Builder. (Justification)
Sometimes thats what it takes to Know The differance , I can be verry passionate about innocents and brother s and sisters being taken advantage of their Kindnes, and or naivety.

Something like the above stopped me from getting out and Killing another Brother THANK GOD!

Thank you for your Good words.

Love Omnaka

I can't answer regarding death row inmates, but I've talked to enough professional criminologists over the years that I've learned that many imprisoned rapists learn to use the proper "magic words" in group therapy sessions and chapel that will earn them eventual release back into the community:

"I have now come to grips with my inner demons....I now realize why I did these terrible things to women, and it was of course entirely my own fault for acting like an animal....My newly-found religions/spiritual beliefs and psychological insights into my own motivations will keep me from ever again committing such outrages."

And all the time they are mouthing these "magic words" they are planning the rapes they will resume committing upon parole.

Rapists should be castrated. All of them. Pedophiles, even more so.

That's the only way to stop repeat offenses of those crimes.

I believe your correct and also think the same goes for the murderers/rapist on death row. In my opinion most of them are only sorry they got caught, if you were to let all of them out I think they would all end up right back where they are because they chose their actions yesterday that got them there so nothing will change today or tomorrow as that is who they are, who they choose to be. They picked the easy way by choosing crime and most of them there have been in and out of jail and prison their whole lives so no amount of rehabilitation is going to change who they are.


Correct me if I am wrong here, You will agree that the rapist and pedophiles should be castrated but the murderers should not be put to death? I apologize if I have mistook your position here. I believe we were discussing the environment of the DR inmates and the circumstances leading to their crimes but I am not sure I read your position correctly.
I also think they should be casterized because they are sick individuals who prey on others.


Always a pleasure

Not all rapists are male, though. So how would one punish a female rapist? Perhaps a murderer should have his/her hands cut off so they cannot kill? The analogy of castration:rapist::death:murderer isn't the same principle. A rapist has his weapon and method of causing harm removed, and death does not do these things for a murderer nor does it teach said murderer a lesson about how wrong it is to kill people. A rapists wouldn't be able to kill people and he would learn his lesson, but death is just an easy way out for murderers. Although, I have to say I highly agree with the castration of rapists.

You have a valid point there. I do agree with you on some level that the murderers are getting the easy way out. As I have said the death row inmates want death to escape the horrible death row so in some cases we are giving them what they want. I don't think a murderer will ever ''learn his/her lesson'' because think of how much it would really take you mentally and physically to murder a person. To stand in front of someone begging for their life and know your taking that person from their loved ones and still go through with it. That takes alot of effort and I don't see reforming someone of such an evil nature.
As far as castrating your correct in that women can't really be castrated but the majority of rapist are men and teaching them a lesson they will not ever forget is what they really need in my opinion.


Always a pleasure

Very true. I do think it would take a lot for someone to kill another human being for no reason other than malice, pleasure, or revenge. Although, there have been quite a few studies that suggest criminal behavior such as these acts can be brought about by mental imbalances and changes in the chemical and electrical signals in the brain. In effect, if someone's brain is damaged, changed, or harmed, they could possibly become "evil" because of this. Clinical lycanthropy is a perfect example. A sufferer of lycanthropy believes he or she is an animal, most commonly a dog, wolf, or pig (yes, strange, but true), and acts as such. Even King Nebuchadnezzar is thought to have suffered from this mental aliment, seeing as for 7 years he thought he was a wolf. People have gone as far as eating children, pregnant women, and fetuses because of their mental illness. They are often hypersexual, meaning they will have intercourse with whatever they wish, whenever they wish, which is incredibly frequently and violently in the case of lycanthropy. How could any sane person do such a thing without any remorse whatsoever? It doesn't seem likely that any sane person would do something as horrid as kill a pregnant woman and eat her unborn child, yet these people have done it, multiple times, in fact. Lycanthropy can be caused by damage to the frontal lobes of the brain, and often these patients have severe deformities of this section of their brains. So, if damage to the brain can cause humans to act so very cruelly, we cannot simply assume that these people are beyond help, I suppose. Also, schizophrenia may be the cause of murders and other crimes, seeing as the imagined voices are incredibly real to the sufferer and can even drive them insane. Demonic possession can be caused by schizophrenia, as well as the illusions of talking to "higher beings", typically "God", "angels", or "demons". Mothers have drowned their own children because voices have told them to. NO loving, caring, sane mother would do that to her child no matter who said this. It goes completely against maternal instinct. Would God really have a mother drown her own children? Absolutely not; at least not the persona of the Christian God that is so common today. Also, we must take into consideration the fact that some children are raised in areas where murder is common and just a part of life. People who grew up, or who live in, "the ghettos" (please, excuse me for the terminology here; I really detest the term "ghetto", but I feel the modern definition fits the situation I'm trying to portray) are usually exposed to concepts such as theft, rape, and murder in more severity and at an earlier age than people who live in "wealthier" areas (again, not a very good term to use, but I'm not trying to insult anyone, so please bear with me). Indeed, some of this is expected from people who have the misfortune of joining gangs and the like. If someone is raised from the womb in a place of violence, anger, poverty, and malice (not to say certain places are always like that; I'm just using this as a general hypothetical scenario) and this is all they know for their entire lives, how can we expect them to change the way they live when they are brought somewhere else where such concepts are frowned upon? Can you expect someone who was raised by a family so poor they had to steal most of their food and belongings in order to survive to not be a thief? Certainly not. Upbringing is just as much a factor in how people act as mental illness, I'd have to say.

Lycanthropy:
http://www.primitivism.com/lycanthropy.htm
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/4/12/91631/6905
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_lycanthropy

Schizophrenia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
http://www.schizophrenia.com/
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/schi...nia/index.shtml
http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-ps01.html

Simply put, we cannot say that all murderers murder simply because they are inhuman, cold-hearted beasts. There are medical reasons, as well as environmental reasons, as to why people kill and harm other people. So, we cannot say that the punishment for all rapists, murderers, thieves and the like will be the same. The circumstances will greatly affect why someone did what they did.

Is this line of thinking compatible with your faith?

Castration will be a punishment but definitely not the best way to do it. When we talk about a rapist or an abuser we will in many cases see that the reason behind the abusive behaviour is not a lust for woman or men but a thing that is rooted in the psyche. Castration won't remove the cancerous element in this troubled mind and hense it won't keep the person from having an urge to abuse again.

Every murder has different situations that led to the death of someones loved one, and I get that your saying mental illness and some diseases are involved in the decision to murder. But set that aside for a second and look at the ones who simply murder for their own purpose or gain, like Susan Smith who killed her children so she could be with her lover or the ones who kill for a wallet or someones life insurance. They are simply people who for one reason or another kill for their own gain. They have no remorse only sorrow that they got caught, there are all kinds of reasons people kill and those differ greatly to the ones who have brain damage to the ones who simply kill to get what they want. The end result is always the same though a loss of a life or lives.
What drives a person like Susan Smith to kill her kids, she wanted to be with her lover who did not want kids so she killed them. In order for us to comprehend such horrible actions we have to believe it was mental illness otherwise there are some really cruel evil people living among us. We set ourselves up to believe that such evil does not exist because we can't as humans comprehend that it does exist and lives among us. We can try and blame mental illness as a reason why some people do kill but the fact is some murderers are just that evil with no sorrow for their actions.
I am reminded of Andrea Yates who also killed her children but she thought she was saving them from being evil and thought God told her to kill her kids so they would not be evil. She had a mental disorder unlike Susan Smith who killed for her own benefit. So there are different circumstances but they all lead to children being killed and in my opinion someone has to pay for that, the ones who killed.
I have never heard of the illness or disorder you describe thanks for the links for lycanthropy.


Always a pleasure

No in fact its quite the opposite. I am not perfect and know as a christian I should be forgiving but when it comes to forgiving a person who willfully took the life of another person I am not so forgiving. When children are involved I get so angry because these are defenseless little kids who depend on their mom to keep them safe only to see her evil eyes when she is killing them. In some cases as I stated Andrea Yates, I believe she had a mental disorder (not like Susan Smith who killed her kids just to get them out of her way) but the end result is still dead children and I find no excuse for that.
I am not a very forgiving person and I will stand in front of God one day and have to explain that but here now I feel I am justified in being unforgiving of someone who chooses to take someone elses life.
I do get your point here about rapist and pedophiles they are sick, I mean they would have to be right, to commit such acts. The majority of them are abused and were abused as kids and true they do need some serious help and while the castration might stop the physical aspect your right the mental aspect will remain. I have no idea what the answer is except keep them from society, and that is not the right one but who is to say that counseling would cure them and how long it would keep them from doing it again.



Always a pleasure

Stop putting criminals first says mother of murdered Pc
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news?articleid=4096185

Cindy Eatonjava script: Published Date:
19 May 2008 By Kate O'Hara Crime Correspondent EXCLUSIVE:
The mother of a murdered police officer today launched a stinging attack on the Government for putting the rights of dangerous criminals before those of law-abiding citizens.

In a heartbreaking letter to the Yorkshire Post the mother of traffic officer Ian Broadhurst – who was executed by former US Marine David Bieber in Leeds – urges Ministers to act now to put a stop to murderers and rapists using the Human Rights Act to shield themselves from the law.

Cindy Eaton says she is breaking her silence because she fears the balance has finally tipped in favour of those who commit crime.

Addressing the Government, she says: "On behalf of the people in this country who work hard, pay our taxes (yes, even in retirement), live an honest and respectful life and bring our family up to do the same – we are weary of being disregarded in favour of those who seek to undermine the foundations of hard work, honesty and pride upon which this country was built.

"There is an imbalance in this country of ours and it is about time it was redressed."

Mrs Eaton wrote the letter in support of comments made by one of the country's top police chiefs in this newspaper last week.

In his last days as head of West Yorkshire Police's Homicide and Major Enquiry Team before moving to the private sector, Det Chief Supt Chris Gregg attacked the "callous, heartless and deeply offensive" misuse of the Act by murderers and rapists.

Lauded as one of the country's finest detectives by his chief constable, Mr Gregg was the senior investigating officer who tracked down Bieber after he went on the run.

He said: "As a police officer one of the most frustrating things is when killers who have shown not one ounce of compassion for their fellow human beings start trying to have the shield of human rights drawn around them."

Mr Gregg's comments came shortly after Bieber went to the Court of Appeal to argue his full life term infringed his human rights. Days before the interview it was revealed that convicted rapist Michael Clark was given a council house in Leeds, against the local authority's wishes, because not to do so would have breached his human rights. He went on to murder a 14-year-old, Zuzzana Zommer, whose family moved in two doors away.

And the day after Mr Gregg's concerns were reported it was revealed that Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe is making a legal bid for freedom by claiming his human rights have been breached.

But in her moving letter Mrs Eaton says it is time for the tide to turn.

"On Boxing Day 2003 Mr David Bieber murdered my son, Ian Broadhurst, and attempted to murder two other police officers.

"He didn't shoot Ian by mistake or in panic. He took careful aim before he fired and whilst Ian lay bleeding on the pavement he shot him again through the head.

"This then is the man who is pleading that his human rights have been breached. This then is the man who on that Boxing Day afternoon deliberately took away my son's human rights – the right to live his life to the full, making his own choices."