Taniwha

When I was young, I would love going to Sylvia's house. Sylvia was an old woman, a family friend who was always ready to please the grandchildren with biscuits and fizzy drinks and she would on occasion, tell us of when she had been a very small child and had been drifting down the Manawatu river with her big brother on a little raft they made themselves. They sailed very far, far into the countryside, where overgrown fences of old farms stood on the side of the water and vthere were vast orange grasslands for as far as the eye could see. On this day, they had come to a part where the river was dangerously deep, and her concerned big brother decided that they should turn back or walk the rest of the way. Sylvia chose to head back home, so they turned around and paddled back. After a while of chatting, laughing and eating their sandwhiches her brother pointed out somthing on the edge of the river, half hidden behind the tall grass. Sylvia caught a glimpse of a "Lizard as big as a Rhinoceras" which then slunk into the water, vanishing into the murky darkness of the rivers depths. As the siblings continued along, they saw its head emerge from the water, with a large fish in its jaws. Its head was "like a Tyrannosaurus" and, after swallowing the fish, followed them for a short while down the river, the way a content cat might. When they arrived home they were told they had seen a Taniwha, a monster which had become so rare it could only be found in the places where humans had not stepped foot in for some time. She was telling the truth, that I know for sure.

In modern Maori legend the Taniwha were once numerous but now, due to the prescence of humans in New Zealand, are found only as ghosts, or, on some occasions, as secretive living beings, avoiding humans as much as possible.

At sea, taniwha often appear as a whale or a large shark; the Māori name for the Great white shark is Mangō-taniwha. In inland waters, they may still be of whale-like dimensions, but look more like a gecko or a tuatara, having a row of spines along the back. Other taniwha appear as a floating log, which behaves in a disconcerting way. Some can tunnel through the earth, uprooting trees in the process. Certain taniwha are credited with creating harbours by carving out a channel to the ocean. Wellington's harbour, Te Whanganui-a-Tara, was reputedly carved out by two taniwha; the petrified remains of one of them turned into a hill overlooking the city. Other taniwha are said to have caused landslides beside lakes or rivers

Most taniwha are associated with tribal groups; each have a taniwha of their own. The taniwha Ureia, depicted on this page, was associated as a guardian with the Māori people of the Hauraki district. Many well-known taniwha arrived from Hawaiki, often as guardians of a particular ancestral canoe. Once arrived in New Zealand, they took on a protective role over the descendants of the crew of the canoe they had accompanied. The origins of other taniwha are unknown. When taniwha were accorded the appropriate respect, they usually acted well towards their people. Taniwha acted as guardians by warning of the approach of enemies, communicating the information via a priest who was a medium; sometimes the taniwha saved people from drowning. Because they lived in dangerous or dark and gloomy places, the people were careful to placate the taniwha with appropriate offerings if they needed to be in the vicinity or to pass by its lair. These offerings were often of a green twig, accompanied by a fitting incantation. In harvest time, the first kūmara (sweet potato) or the first taro was often presented to the taniwha.

In their role as guardians, taniwha were vigilant to ensure that the people respected the restrictions imposed by tapu. They made certain that any violations of tapu were punished. Taniwha were especially dangerous to people from other tribes. There are many legends of battles with taniwha, both on land and at sea. Often these conflicts took place soon after the settlement of New Zealand, generally after a taniwha had attacked and eaten a person from a tribe that it had no connection with. Always, the humans manage to outwit and defeat the taniwha. When Hotu-puku, a taniwha of the Rotorua district, was finally killed, his stomach was cut open to reveal a number of bodies of men, women, and children, whole and still undigested, as well as various body parts. The taniwha had swallowed all that his victims had been carrying, for his stomach also contained weapons of various kinds, darts, greenstone ornaments, shark's teeth, flax clothing, and an assortment of fur and feather cloaks of the highest quality.
Belief in Taniwha has always been strong, by both Maori and Pakeha (Europeans).

Wanganui Herald

November 8, 1887

The Waikato Saurian Monster.

Some months ago the Auckland papers were full of accounts of a mysterious monster that cleared carcasses out of slaughter houses, chased children, left peculiar tracks in the mud, etc.; but for some time there had been no mention of it. It appears now[,] however[,] that the stranger has been caught, and shot. We take the following account of its capture from a letter of a Hamilton correspondent to the Auckland Star: — It appears that a native, whilst fishing in his canoe just off the South Spit of the Raglan Harbour on Friday [either October 28 or November 4], observed, on looking towards the shore, a large animal, apparently slumbering on the beach. He immediately gave the alarm, and the natives assembled in numbers on the beach with guns. The monster, on being approached, opened its mouth grunting, barking and snapping its ugly jaws. Rawiri fired at its head and hit him, the bullet taking no effect. Another native then fired and wounded him in the side. Upon [the witnesses’] approaching it, the animal put its arms, wings or flappers in front of its head as a mode of defence, but being severely wounded could offer no resistance: A rope was then fastened round its neck. About a dozen Maoris took it in tow to the Raglan Wharf on to which it was landed by means of a crane. After being killed it was found to be 11 feet in length, and six feet in circumference. It has two large arms or flappers. Its tail consisted of two large propellers opening out like the web-foot of a duck. It was covered with a fine fur, and had no ears, but openings in its skin. It had 16 teeth in each jaw, four of them being like tusks. The head has been preserved. It is supposed to be a sea elephant. The skin is also preserved. It weighs between 6 and 7 cwt.

The N.Z. Herald correspondent on Monday last wired as follows: — The Raglan mail carrier, who arrived to-day, describes the saurian monster shot on Friday as being much larger than any seal, with different teeth, and a mouth that could swallow a man. It roared like a bull when shot, and could be heard for a long distance. The native policeman, Rawiri, who shot it, asks ₤20 for the skin, head, and legs which are prepared for stuffing.

Even today, many strongly believe in their existence, at least as a spiritual creature.

In the early 2000s, two construction projects caused debate because they were planned for areas where taniwha were believed to live.

Karutahi
In 2002, the Ngāti Naho hapū in Waikato objected to construction of a highway in a particular area, because it would destroy the lair of one of their taniwha, known as Karutahi. Eventually, Transit New Zealand agreed to partially reroute the highway.

Takauere
The building of a prison in Ngāwhā, Northland, was also opposed because of belief in a taniwha. Takauere, a taniwha in the form of a log, was said to have been created by a Ngāpuhi ancestress, Kareariki. While he was mainly located at Lake Ōmāpere he was also believed to manifest himself at Ngāwhā Springs and other geothermal areas. Local hapū were concerned that the prison would impede his travel. Ultimately, against these objections the prison was built.

In both cases, raising taniwha as an objection led to controversy. Some people suggested that the objection was an attempt to get compensation, and that the taniwha could be paid to go away. Even among Māori there was disagreement as to whether the concerns about taniwha were genuine or not.

Taniwha and identity
Witi Ihimaera, author of The whale rider, says that he has a kaitiaki (guardian) which is a taniwha. Her name is Hine Te Ariki and she lives in the Waipāoa River.

When Tahu Pōtiki was chief executive officer of the administrative body of the Ngāi Tahu people, he expressed disbelief in taniwha. However, he noted that ‘the old Maori view of the world allowed for taniwha, as they explained descent lines from the gods.’

While debate continues, taniwha continue to play an important role in the cultural identity of many tribal groups.

Whether a beast of flesh and blood, or a spiritual monster of myth, the Taniwha is very mch alive today, and will undoubtedly continue to fascinate and excite the imagination of many for years to come.

Undead,your NZ legends never cease to fascinate

I think UndeadSpeptic IS a cryptid.

Wow! Undeadskeptic, thanks for that!!
I've never heard of it, and now I have something new to look up.
Very informative post! I liked Sylvia's story.

Thanks for the info, I'm off to google now.

Don't be silly, thats ridiculous... Why would you think that?... Now look into the light...



Thank you Jennie.
I love Sylvia's story, it was one of the first things that got me interested in Cryptozoology. I've spent ages trying to figure out wht it could have been.



One of the most interesting things to search is the 2002 Waikato River Taniwha debate, proves just how strong belief in Taniwha is over here in New Zealand.

Oh and another related creature is the Kumi, a possible Monitor Lizard living in the South Island, though it is treated as a real being, of flesh and blood.

maybe its giant croc ?

In New Zealand?

no croc in NZ ??

Well, there used to be, but they were probably extremely rare if not extinct when the Maori arrived, but maybe they could have survived, there are still sightings today after all

The basic physical description, acknowledgling a human-like intelligence, as well as the inter-relationships between these creatures and humans (and thier supposed gods), bears remarkable similarities with world-wide dragon beliefs, and apparently believed in even today .

Obviously, if even a portion of the accounts are true, this suggests an intelligent creature that defies scientific logic, as 'they' do all around the world. I wonder if 'white men' are more inclined to believe in stories of "huge, intelligent reptiles that demand tribute" if they were reported in an exotic locale like NZ, than their near-identical legends of such animals from Europe.

Of course, if the Maori actually did ever kill one, is remains would have been treasured trophies. But like the european tales, reports of a human actually killing one seem to be greatly exaggerated.

Thanks, Undead, for bringing up even more evidence of the universal human belief in giant, intelligent reptilian entitites that inter-related with humans in the past. Even Dr. Jones missed this one in his study.

I suppose it is just a coincidence, but the ancient Hebrew name for these creatures is quite similar - Taniym.

DC, a one trick pony.

Actually, he does point out some interesting similarities. That said, this diverse legend could have had many origins. Crocodiles could hav been part of it: they burrow, and can be quite dangerous if one strays into it's territory (a tribe would know where not to go-showing respect for the territory, strangers wouldn't, and would get eaten). Also, it is quite possible to outwit a croc (even though they are wily for reptiles) and eventually, drive them to extinction, as the Maori may have. The floating log part just screams "croc".

That said, there are animist traditions in India and East Indies where crocodiles are venerated, offered gold, and (in the past) virgin sacrifices, in return for blessings, good weather and being left alone. There are traditions where the local chief or kings are believed to be descended of crocodiles. So: there is some overlap with dragon and crocodile myth, though which inspired which is a guessing game.

The shark part is probably a combination with the Polynesian reverence and respect for sharks. The hairy monster part may be an influence from the myth of the Bunyip. All in all, I'm guessing we may have an amalgimation of different creature legends, but this is the first I've heard of this creature, so I don't have a lot to offer here.

Thanks for further enriching the Crypto thread UDS!

Taniwha do not have wings, cannot fly and cannot breathe fire. They also have no true form, they can appear as somewhat reptillian humans, sea monsters, sharks, orca, lizards, and evn seals. Whilst it is ture that they are often appear as sea monsters and giant lizards, the never fly or breathe fire, are often killed in legends (In fact many Maori tribes continue to this day to show strange teeth and parts of bones said to be Taniwha bones, even in musuems some are shown, said to be killed by ancient Maori tribes) and are not at all always intelligent, some taniwha, the one that haunted a cave in Stewart Island for instance, are stupid beasts, relying only on brute force to battle humans and sink Waka (Canoes).

Please discontinue to spew your ridiculous nosense into my thread.

Certainly. It has already served its usefulness. Taniwha may very well fly, but keep their wings folded tightly to their body to protect the fragile membranes when associating with projectile throwing/shooting humans. Intelligent creatures do not give all of their abilities away to a possible threat.

Please show us evidence of the 'strange' teeth and bones? And are you saying the natives are 'ridiculous' becasue they believe it is intelligent? I bet they all more 'experience' with wild animals than you could ever have.

Seeing as I am Maori I think I know quite a lot more than you on this subject (Especially considering you did not know it existed until I informed you of it).

I already stated Maori beliefs do NOT in any way sugest all Taniwha are intelligent, in fact it could easily be argued that the majority of taniwha are stupid brutes with 0 intelligence. The ones that are presented with smartness means virtually nothing anyway, for even many insects, fish, even special rocks and sometimes weather conditions are considered as highly intelligent in ancient Maori belief. The Tuatara is considered brainier than the taniwha, as is the seal, Pohotukawa trees and many different bird species. I was saying you, my dear sir, are ridiculous for twisting perfectly good legends that you know very little about for your own theories.

Your wing theory is a baseless hypothetical displaying a wrong form of logic; you have made somthing up to fit the theory, instead of analyzing the evidence first and then reaching a conclusion.

Te Papa, wellingtons museum, has a collection of supposed "Taniwha" bones, which don't match up with any known creature. As for the tribal collections you would have to ask the Wai Ora tribes, as they claim to have the only Taniwha skull known to man at this moment in time, the authenticity of which I personally doubt.

Can't you even remember what you posted yesterday?

"Most taniwha are associated with tribal groups; each have a taniwha of their own. The taniwha Ureia, depicted on this page, was associated as a guardian with the Māori people of the Hauraki district. Many well-known taniwha arrived from Hawaiki, often as guardians of a particular ancestral canoe. Once arrived in New Zealand, they took on a protective role over the descendants of the crew of the canoe they had accompanied. The origins of other taniwha are unknown. When taniwha were accorded the appropriate respect, they usually acted well towards their people. Taniwha acted as guardians by warning of the approach of enemies, communicating the information via a priest who was a medium; sometimes the taniwha saved people from drowning. Because they lived in dangerous or dark and gloomy places, the people were careful to placate the taniwha with appropriate offerings if they needed to be in the vicinity or to pass by its lair. These offerings were often of a green twig, accompanied by a fitting incantation. In harvest time, the first kūmara (sweet potato) or the first taro was often presented to the taniwha.

In their role as guardians, taniwha were vigilant to ensure that the people respected the restrictions imposed by tapu. They made certain that any violations of tapu were punished. Taniwha were especially dangerous to people from other tribes."

All of this clearly describes a creature with intelligence far beyond that of a normal animal, exactly like a dragon as Arch quickly realized, though you evidently couldn't. Even the transmitting of important information through a medium is strongly reminniscent of the 'drakons' assocationed with the ancient classical oracles.

Come on lets not turn this in to yet another dragon debate please.

Anxiously awaiting your blog, DC.

This is not and should not be turned into a dragon thread.I used to find dragons as cryptids a very interesting topic,but now,thanks to DC, I'm sick of it.Please,nobodu mention anything more about dragons.Please.

I am so sick of him I've decided to just ignore his posts. I recommend you do the same Yorgi.

Do you find Taniwha interesting as cryptids?

Agreed. But UDS provoked this by claiming nothing in his OP suggested this creature was 'intelligent' or had dragon-like characteristics. Anyone who can read can see this is not true, as Archosaur pointed out.

Nobody provoked you in to hijacking this thread, that was entirely your own doing.

Lets get this back on topic please.

Intriguing topic as usual. UDS, do you have any photos of the Te Papa bones?

I think its difficult to class as a cryptid due to its different forms i think its strickly a shamanistic totem, i am quite interested in how the mythology evolved

Yes pics of teh bones would be awesome.Especially the skull.Have any photos ever been taken of it?

The Skull belongs to a Wai Ora tribe *supposedly*, I have never seen it and actually doubt if it exists. I haven't seen the bones either but next time I head into Wellington city (Which is tommorow to see Indiana Jones 4!) I will ask to see, and photograph if allowed, said bones.

Maharaja; I totally agree, the mythology of Maori lore is very interesting.

Abra-cadaver, and hey presto I've necroposted the thread back to unlife

Bit of De-jevu for me reading this part of the thread... Kind of reminds me of a similar discusion about another antipodian (to our friends in the northen hemisphere) myth I had awhile ago on this board. Can't argue with someone who's more in tune with your ancestory than you

Still good topic. Pity the interest level wasn't too high (so were the kiddies more interested in werewolf or vampire spam last month?)

Growing up and being primary schooled in NZ, I did get a little exposure to the culture and mythology of the Maori (in the board of education sense) And from what I recall of the Taniwha stories, they didn't really have a place in day to day life (as opposed to rainbow serpent and dreamtime myths). They were just some primevial 'force' (for lack of a better word) in creature form...

I'll post to add more unlife into this thread, I guess...

I have heard of the Taniwha before, though I live nowhere near New Zealand, and I find this creature to be quite interesting. I've always been fascinated by other cultures and their myth and lore.

I'd ALWAYS like to hear more.

Evangium, where have you been? I've had to keep these threads running all by myself. Posting in them, replying to my own posts, replying my replies, having arguments with myself to keep them going! Well, maybe not that much but it's been pretty damn hard.

The only way to get hits is to post somthing about bigfoot, vampires werewolves or dragons. No one seems tocare about the little-known beasties anymore. I blame the weather. And the video games of course. Video games: Somthing Lazy people can blame for anything from their children being naughty, to high school shootings!

Anyway where was I? Yes siree, the Taniwha myths are very strong here in NZ. The force thing is true for many taniwha, particuraly on on Stewart Island, don't recall the name, but he was born of lava from a volcano so the legend goes, and was nothing but the rage of fire in the body of a beast. He was eventually killed by Rangi Kupa who used the heart of a shark to transform the taniwha into the form of a man. He crushed the mans head between his palms, and as the headless brute stumbled aimlessly around he turned back to fire, and was heard to scream "Curse you Rangi Kupa! Curse you forever!" as he died, drowned in flame.

He was one of the first Taniwha, so somtimes when reffering to any given Taniwha legends may use Stewart Island as its birthplace, no matter where it lives.

Wow. That's actually pretty neat. All I know of Taniwha and such really is what was posted in your first post. I might like them, but I haven't actually done much searching up to research them.

Any more?

Well sometimes Taniwha sort of 'possess' living things, even flowers, trees and people. A man whose soul is gone (Dead) must be buried quickly, as a wandering Taniwha spirit (That is a Taniwha soul without a physical form, but instead somthing like wind or sound) may become trapped in the empty body, and will then become insane with its new powers and strength, and will murder, rape and brutalise anything in its way. This is of course assuming the Taniwha is angry or violent, many were peaceful and would not take human life in most circumstances.

If this does occur, however, the Taniwha must be killed, as there is it is difficult and not neccesary to remove an evil Taniwha from a human body. The ideal way to do this would be to hold it still (No easy task) and break a hole in its skull. Though this would kill a human usually, with the strength of a Taniwha the brain must be set on fire, so embers are poured into the skull and lit, killing the Taniwha.

When Kupe (In Maori legend the man who discovered New Zealand) was first exploring his land, he became aware of the Taniwha (Which were at that time more abundant, forced to hiding after the arrival of humans) when his wife picked up ones trail, and decided to chase the mysterious creature far into the bush. There they saw a lake full of Poua (The now-extinct New Zealand swan) with several Moa (Though the word used to describe the birds Kupe saw was different, they were clearly Moa) being harrased by a bulky quadrepedal lizard the length of a man lying down and the height of a dog. After that, some of Kupe friends attempted to steal some of the carcasse of a Moa the Taniwha had killed, but were riped to shreds by the brute, leaving only a few limbs hanging from between it's teeth.

Kupe himself killed several Taniwha in his time, and befriended some, but by the end of his life told his people to preotect the Taniwha, as they were greater than man and showe be given nothing but respect. For a time this was followed faithfully, but after rebellious tribes broke off and began killing the beasts as they pleased, his words were forgotten.

sounds like a gator.

An Alligator?

In New Zealand?

A croc I can easily see happening, but how a gator?

Wow, sounds awfully gory, but absolutely fascinating, Undeadskeptic! Please, keep them coming. I have never heard of the Taniwha, but you have now given me something else to do a little research on. If you find anything more on the supposed bones or teeth, please make sure to let us know! (Or anything else interesting about the Taniwha, for that matter. By the way, is it pronounced just how it is spelt?)

And I can now officially blame you every time someone says that I spend too much time on the internet. (Happens every time I mention a cryptid) If you wern't here to post of these amazing and lesser-known crytpids, the UM would succumb to the swirling vortexes of vampire, dragon, and werewolf threads, in which case my internet time would be cut in half. In fact, I can even blame you for the apple cider I just spilt all over my pants, in result of my typing in reply to this thread!


So please, keep these coming! They are wonderful reads and deeply satisfying for any crytpid-lover.

Moved house, and as a result switched from cable to ADSL. Which is where the unexplained mystery begins. Spent the first few weeks arguing with people in Mumbai(?) (who claimed to be here in Oz), that the data they were seeing was not at all what I was experiencing (ie. there was nothing at the wall socket). 1 pc, 2 laptops and 2 modems were all telling me that there was no internet connection. Yet 'they' were dead certain that their system confirmed the prescence of an internet connection.
Then I was off to a reasonably remote area for work for a few weeks. Despite being in the bush and having a military area and a couple of small towns scattered around the area, no yowies, bigfeet, UFOs, ET's, werecreatures or vampires (well moracula showed up to suck our morale for a few days at the hump point of the trip, but that's fairly normal) were encountered...
Got back to find that i had a working connection and a credit of $29 for the incoonvience. Of course the mystery hasn't ended yet. Seems this connection holds the key to time travel, since this blisteringly fast dsl moves so quickly, it's working from 1995 and functions almost like the dial-up of that era. Painfully slow at times....
All that, and the arrival of the baby just before I went away. So haven't had that much time or opportunity to haunt these boards. Though from some of the topics and replies in various threads, I haven't missed out on too much


Ah good ol' Stewart Island. The one place I never even got close to seeing when I was living in the land of the long white cloud. Invercargill was as as far south as we got. Started off in Auckland and went down the eastern seaboard, before crossing the straight...

From Tourism NZ
Source

Rangi Kupa, isn't he one of Maui's relations? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Congrats Dad !!

You might be better of. Could be Telstra. That would probably still be a few months off.

We look forward to your return, but a new child! I see some 3:00 am postings LOL.

Once again, congratulations Dad. First one?

Let's just say that when this contract is up, of the words I'll be saying one of them wont be "Yes"...



Thanks. Technically no, she's not my first one, but since my ex did a runner shortly after my first was born (10 years ago), most of this is a new ball game, for me and the Mrs (bubs is her first).

Maori legend and myth is extremely violent, full of blood, lust, hate and death on an epic scale. I love it

I got a reply from Te Papa staff saying that the bones are likely from a seal or whale, and that the teeth are reptillian and may be of the now extinct New Zealand Croc. Due to cultural signifigance and respect however, they are not to be properly examined.

Maori words are very hard to get right, especcially if you havn't grown up 'round the language. Taniwha is pronounced:

Tar - Nay - Fa

Taniwha

I don't know too much 'bout the language but I know that there is no S in the language, so, for example a group, of Taniwha is not called a group of Taniwhas.



LMAO!

What can I say, I'm a rebel without a cause



Awwww, thanks Otterclaw Sure will.

Hehehe, I think if I can put up with dial-up for 3 years you can handle this (Dial-Up is HORRIBLE)

I'm glad to hear the baby's arrived, is it a he/she? Sorry if you've already told me, its just that my folks never got scans or anything so it was always a mystery till the birth and now Im in the habit of asking

Cute as a button?

Already got a U-M account?

Stewart Islands great, real pretty.

Rangi Kupa? No, he was not related to Maui, I think you are thinking of Rangi, the sky father?

Undead you freaking rule!!

Thanks bro! So do you!

It's a nostelgia trip, alright. All that's missing is 16 bit colour....


Of course


Not until she's old enough to swing a verbal baseball bat at the kooks


I imagine it would be with the tiny human population there. Lots of old forest...


Quite probably. Like I said, board of education version of indigenous culture c.25 or so years ago. Guess you could liken it to a unified version of native people everywhere, in that the most prevailant and p.c. beliefs are presented to the kiddies.

May as well not get an account, U-M is planet of the kooks!

Damned political correctness.

Damn it striaght to the fiery pits of Gal' Himth.

Gal' Himth being a creature I just made up.