The bible is the epitome of truth and will always be.
The bible is the one book in history that has withstood scrutiny and will continue to. Just because you don't think its ''truth'' does not mean its not.


Always a pleasure

Not to nitpick, but persecuting people who opposed it isn't the same as withstanding scrutiny, and it doesn't withstand any kind of reasonable scrutiny these days.

And how many of us who are Americans had ancestors who did terrible things to the Native Americans? I am sure many were there who did not participate and while powerless did not agree. I am also sure many of us would have done the same as those unnamed who remain blameless. Yet who wants to destroy the Constitution? Not me. A brilliant peace of work and it was not the reason why people did evil even if they used it as an excuse.

The Bible does remain one of the most endearing books if not the most throughout all of human history and evil men who used it as an excuse only reflect themselves and not the Word. I do not blame Atheism for the hatred a few demonstrate and take notice not all do since most of them just want to live and let live life as we do. Of course this takes a bit appreciation and understanding rather than pure emotional stereotyping. That is to differentiate the good from the bad apples and not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Yeah, and overall, I agree with THAT. I pretty much feel the same way. I don't concern myself with eschatology, yet, I don't consider my own opinion to be necessarily infallible. While I think its highly unlikely, God is God. So, Jesus COULD come back, those things COULD happen, which would be okay with me. Que sera, sera, you know?

I am a true beliver of GOD and his son JESUS. Yes we all know that all things will come to a end but when...? In the Bible it does state many things that will and have happened BUT how much was kept out of the Bible that we dont know about. Guess we got to go ask the pope.

One thing i love of the Christian escatologist, mainly aong the one in the USA and some ex-brittish colonies like Australiam and Canada, is the characterization of the European UNion like "The Beast", or the origin of all evil...could it be more a nationalistic feeling that something based in religious fables? Who knows....:roll:

To Zanpukto.

Not only is is the event you describe on its way, but it has already happened. The catch is this; as it was in the days of Jesus, so it was when the Son of God returned. He arrived, and there were but a few who noticed. In Jesus' day, the expectations were indeed high, and so God answered the heart cry of the people. The Messiah was sent, but the people had imagined to receive a Messiah that was not promised. Jesus did not meet their expectations They had read a few lines from a holy book, compared those lines to Jesus, and said "this man is a fake". They could not accept that God gets to choose how history plays out, and he chooses who his anointed messengers are.

History has repeated itself. The expectations again are very high, just as you have acknowledged. The Messiah has returned, as was promised. But just as in the days of old, the people have imagined a vain thing, and will not accept the Man of God's own choosing. They have taken a few lines out of a holy book, misinterpreted them, and said that the one who claims to be the the Christ is an impostor. History will prove otherwise.

-------------------------------------------------------

Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, "higher education" destroys knowledge, governments destroy freedom, corporate media destroys information, atheist destroy free thinking, and religions destroy the voice of God.

withstood scrutiny ? lol

just because you think it's the truth doesn't mean it is ! lol

In the world I live in, my own It is and will remain to be truth. You don't seem to have a problem with the bible when you use it to try and make your point. How many times have you yourself quoted the bible in your post? I can attest to the fact that you do quite often, so if it is not truth to you why continue to you it as reference in your posts? You quote the scripture Isaiah 45:7 alot.


Always a pleasure

ah now you state the world you live in , meaning your opinion. The thing is Sandee you usually don't come off as a truth for you and you alone , but as a truth for everyone and that is where your wrong.

yes I use the bible alot. because there are so many that think they understand it and because people don't agree with you they must not. I'm putting up your own verse and scripture to counterbalance what you think you know to be the truth and totally avoid what you don't agree with in the book . what doesn't fit your image.

the bible is no more truth than the koran or the book of the dead. at least to God. unless of course your view of God is small and petty . now why do people keep the view of a small and petty God ?

Thats only your view,

This is one of the things I find disturbing about Christianity. The idea that the Bible is exempt from being used as an argument against itself. Just as it is self-validating to you, so is it self-condemning to others. The statements within Scripture suggesting that the earth is the center of the solar system is but one example. There are obviously countless others and without exegesis, the most devout of Christians would be at task to defend it.

sandee has displayed more knowledge of biblical knowledge than your view ever has so far from what I have read. Your views demonstrates a clear lack of understanding.

Thank you , I don't by any means know everything there is to know but I can and do study and also I learn from members like you here on UM. When one reads the bible some scriptures may have different meanings to different people, context is one thing in my opinion that is important when reading the bible.


Always a pleasure

lmao - I am misunderstanding ?


like your in thinking God doesn't create evil - of course God does. your interpretation is wrong.


For the Jewish faith, Satan's purpose in seducing man away from God poses no problem because Satan is only an agent of God. As a servant of the Almighty, Satan faithfully carries out the divine will of his Creator as he does in all his tasks.
How can Christians maintain that God did not create evil when the Jewish scriptures clearly state otherwise?

Understandably, the NIV translators saw fit to alter the prophet's words by rendering the offensive Hebrew word rah as "disaster" instead of correctly translating it as "bad" or "evil." The NIV Bible therefore mistranslates Isaiah 45:7 to read,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

The word "disaster" inserted by the NIV is so ambiguous that the uninformed reader would easily come to the conclusion that it refers to such things as earthquakes and hurricanes. This skewed understanding created by the NIV mistranslation effectively conceals Isaiah's original message. As mentioned above, the KJV (King James Version) does correctly translate this verse and render the Hebrew word rah as "evil."

outreach judaism


you were wrong. God does create evil. and that's what miffs you. is that you could be wrong. try reading from the link.

And to the informed reader it would imply that the passage is dealing with the opposites of life, God created the darkness and the light, and he also created prosperity and calamity (or disaster/distress/disorder/misery, or any number of adjectives that get the basic message). The undertones of this Hebrew word support this view, plain and simple.

As I said in a previous post, I agree with the general sentiment that God did indeed create evil. On this point, I am not in disagreement with the Jewish view. But I do not think Isaiah 45:7 is an appropriate verse to justify this belief, and I think the Jewish view has misunderstood the more subtle dichotomies of this particular verse - light/dark and propsperity/evil prosperity/misery

Your assessment of what is expressed in Isaiah 45:7 is quite apparent when making the comparisons. How any view could use it to claim it has anything to do with wickedness is kind of squirrelly.



I am not miffed just made an honest opinion that sandee demonstrates more biblical knowledge than you. It is only natural someone who is accepts it and the Spirit described within will have more knowledge and revelation but that is what it says and not me...I just agree. BTW why is it that almost every thread, or at least a great number of them, no matter the topic, no matter the issue, you must change the subject to God created evil or there is no free will? There is no wickedness in God (Psalms 5:4) and anyone who has wickedness does not have God in them (John 3:20) as far as the Bible is concerned. Even if evil is a byproduct of free will God did not create evil but He created the conditions that would allow it. Also anyone relying just on the Old Testament does not have the full revelation of the Word. The New Testament has revealed Satan is more than just doing the work of God but is one of the fallen angels (Revelation 12:7-9). It takes both Testaments to come to a full understanding of the Word and neither is better than the other they are a completed work.

I would think the Jewish view would hold more credence over the christian. hey , they wrote it and they know what they meant.




this is just it. it is your interpretation . her interpretation. your opinions. the bible is so chocked full of contradiction it's squirrley to think you have more knowledge.

as for the spirit ? you assume I don't have any. you assume my spirit is different than yours , it isn't.

I agree. That's why I always just go back to Christ's teachings, for Christian questions. Christ never said that people need the books in the old testament, nor Paul's writings. He never said we have to be Christian, or even Jewish. He never said we need to be a part of a church, or believe in anything. Nor that we need to give money to Pastors or priests. Almost every single thing Jesus taught, was about how we should treat others, to show Love, Compassion, forgiveness, and Charity. For that I give Jesus props.

The "second comming" is another one of those man-made religious doctrines that really has nothing to do with what Jesus actually taught.

I assume nothing about strangers but do know that scripture tell us if one denies the sacred writings they might have the appearance of godliness but they will never have the knowledge of truth (which is what the Word is).



Clearly by the view expressed by the Bible someone who denies the scripture does not have this God spoken of.

I am somewhat of a monolatrist. So I do recognize other people can have other gods and they have every right to follow their own path. But the complete Word describes to us a certain God and one who does not follow the Word does not have His Spirit at all and without it they are none of His. It also takes the revelation of the Spirit to understand the Word.

Sure many can understand vestiges of the Bible through academia, scholarship, casual reading, even from listening to a preacher but without the Spirit implied in it they will miss out on the important things and misunderstand others.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/06/sect.leader.arrest/




If I may, I suggest you pick up a bible.

Anyone who makes a prediction about a certain date is not being biblical about it at all since 'concerning that day and hour no one knows' just God. (Matthew 24:36)

And if anyone says it already happened but no one noticed they too are not being biblical for it says 'every eye will see him...and all the tribes of the earth will...' (Revelation 1:7)

And another point, thank you.

Matthew 24:36 The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

And I would like to suggest that you engage your God given powers of reason and the Spirit of the Berean (investigation); for Travesser made no so such prediction. The media had intentionally presented to the world that Michael made a false prediction, in order to make him into a false Christ. Anyone can find out the truth of this matter by spending 5 minutes listening to the actual audio recordings of interviews, in which the film crew asked our people, over and over again, what was going to happen on Oct 31. After being told a dozen times or more that we had no idea about what would take place, they chose to promote a lie about us. Test me and see if I am telling the truth.

When one realizes that it is the antichrist who claims Travesser predicted the "end of the world", a person with an open mind and one led of God, would also have to ask himself how many other lies are being promoted by the adversary (media, unbelievers).

so what will happen to all the cute satanic chicks(me ) in the world lol

do we just all go to hell? lamo im sorry ill stop

i think if there is a jesus he wouldnt come agin not at least in physical form

lol well if one is to go by the Bible would you not be on the side of the beast? Its number is supposedly 666 or maybe 616.

hahaha the origanal # of the beast is 999 so i think im good

You know what continues to baffle me about you Lt Ripley, If I were to make that statement you would immediately say hey thats just your opinion and not fact. So here I will throw your own words back at you.
You assume because its YOUR belief that it is fact and we should just accept your opinion as fact. Just yesterday I made a statement and you said just your opinion and not fact so I came back to say In my world its fact. You then said AH! well you need to say in your opinion and not state... as fact.
I will tell you the same exact thing, what makes YOU so sure your right and we are wrong? What makes your view fact and ours wrong? Your opinion is just that your opinion.


Always a pleasure

Why would this be, exactly? By this reasoning, Christians wrote the New Testament and I could argue that the Christian veiw has more credence over your (non-Christian) view. Hey, they wrote it, and they know what it meant (note the past tense, "they", just as the Jews).

Do yourself a favour, Lt R, and grab yourself a Hebrew/Greek dictionary. You can find one online easy enough. Then you can begin to read words such as that in Isaiah 45 and better understand the underlying connotations of the words (remember, translating from one language to another often leaves out many of the subtleties and connotations of the original word).

Just a thought to consider,

I have no need to listen nor does Jesus need to come back as man again. All sins have been forgiven through Him.

The next we see of Jesus, He will take divine form and everyone will know who He is even those who betrayed Him. Like Clovis said, all eyes will see and know for sure. This means no doubts, none, nada. And frankly I feel for you if you believe this man to be anything more than that. I will pray for you.

I went to a few dictionaries - then I went to the horses mouth on Isaiah - a Jewish view. and that does hold more credence than a christians view of it.

that's the key !! you think I don't have the same spirit as you , the same God , yet believe differently and it be just as valid as your belief !! and that is where you come off as arrogant ! Seeming to know what God thinks based on a Book written by men .

Yes, you would rather do as the pharisees of old did; you would rather remain in your sins and in darkness, instead of walking in the light.

And what did your dictionaries say about the connotations of the word? I have yet to read one that did not include "disaster", "calamity", "distress", misery", "chaos" , or some other such adjective. If you have information from a Hebrew dictionary that I have not seen, by all means, I would be happy to review it. The Hebrew dictionaries I have read all give credence to the view that "disaster" is a better translation. I'm more than happy to read the actual dictionary you saw that dealt with this, so please cite the dictionaries you looked at which showed no overtones of calamity/distress/disaster/etc.

While I appreciate the quotes from Outreach Judaism, I saw no primary sources or comments on the Hebrew words themselves, except to say "the NIV is wrong, the KJV is right" - which quite frankly, is not a valid argument, unless it is backed up with sources of information.

As I have said, I am not opposed to the Jewish view that God created evil - I believe that he did. I just don't think Isaiah 45 is a valid passage to base this on.

Very well said PA.

The problem is that the Jewish view does not view Satan was wicked but just as the prosecutor doing the work set out for him by God. One cannot use the Jewish view and claim God created wickedness for that is not what it states in the least for they do not view Satan as the epitome of wickedness. Anyone attempting to say otherwise is misrepresenting the Jewish view to merely attack the Christian view and doing so is ignorance at best or intentional disingenuousness at worst. I do not think Lt Ripley though is intentionally misleading others with falsehoods and truly believes her view but it is not accurate in the least and the truth will reveal itself on whether she gains a better appreciation for the Jewish view or continues to misconstrue both the Jewish and Christian views by attempting to combine them both merely to claim that God created wickedness.

There is also the fact that not all Jewish views are identical. Rashi reads into Isaiah 45:7 as it applying only to God creating darkness for Babylon in this specific verse. Maybe he had a broader view in mind but in his commentary it is applicable only to Babylon since chapter 45 of Isaiah begins with a narrative of how God raises up Cyrus for a specific reasons. One would have to read the overall commentary on the chapter to grasp this but it is not a lengthy commentary at all. The consistent theme Rashi draws through his commentary is one specific to Cyrus and even though I view it as having broader implications and many undertones it is good to understand all views.



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/.../Chapter-45.htm

The Second Coming means when Jesus comes back again (although I think it's technically his Third Coming, because he appeared to Mary after he died)....

When will Jesus come back? When he is invited back. As a Raelian, we believe that our ET creators will return with all of the prophets at an embassy we're trying to build for them (known as the Third Temple in prophecy). They've said that Jesus will not return unless there is peace on earth and the embassy has been built.

They have talked about the rapture, saying that if it looks like the world will self destruct (through nuclear war) then the Raelians and other people who have fought for peace/advancing humanity will be taken away from the world to live on their planet (known as heaven).

Once the Earth has settled down, they will reimplant us to start a new humanity full of peaceful people.

-Josh

here's a decent read =

There is even division among Old Testament scholars as to whether evil should be associated with Satan at all. Some say that Satan was originally not considered evil but gradually became identified with his unpleasant functions. According to this approach, Satan is still God's servant. There is much in the Book of Job that tends to support this view. Satan appears only in the first two chapters and then disappears. Some believe the first two chapters were added much later, for in the last chapter we read: ". . . they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (42:11).

It appears that the Hebrews did not have a devil-like power opposed to God. Satan, or the Satan as he is often called, is an angel in the court of God with the function of an accuser (see Job 1:6). There are also indications that along with all that is "good," all that is "evil" comes from God, not Satan. In Isaiah 45:7 God says: "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things." Valentine's Jewish Encyclopedia confirms the idea that there is a radical difference between how Satan is conceived in the Old Testament and how he is conceived in the New Testament, and that his new role did not develop from his original role: there are no references "to rebellious angels in any pre-Christian book. . . . The figure of Satan in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament respectively emphasizes the difference in conception. There is no development, but basic difference. . . . It is only in Christian literature that the Persian idea of two opposing empires, with Satan as God's enemy, has persisted" (Valentine's Jewish Encyclopedia, A. M. Hyamson & A. M. Silberman eds., Shapiro, Valentine & Co, London, 1938, p. 36).

There is actually very little in the Old Testament to support the idea of Satan as a rebellious angel and the power opposing God. He is generally depicted as a heavenly attorney general (accuser) functioning under God, and this only strengthens the argument for not reading Satan into the passage about Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12. Isaiah is one of the older books in the Bible and is definitely pre-exile.

If there is no sound biblical basis for associating Lucifer with Satan, where then does the story come from that he is a rebellious angel and fell because of pride? The Christian Church made the interpretation that Isaiah 14:12 is connected with Luke 10:18: "He said to them, I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning." This unfounded, non-biblical connection of Lucifer with Satan has led to the popular misunderstanding that Lucifer is another name for the Devil (cf. "Lucifer," Harper's Bible Dictionary, Paul Achtemeier, gen. ed., Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1985).


http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/...st/xt-ibel2.htm





Most Jews I know don't view Satan as evil. Just as a servant of God. Since God didn't give the ability of free will for any angel , non could resist. So no angel could say no to God nor turn their back on God - that is something Christianity made up. I'm not misrepresenting anything. God created evil and it serves Gods purpose. always. so yes God did create wickedness. ( and that's coming from someone raised 25 years in christanity who happens to be a quarter jewish)

I don't think your interpetation is accurate. maybe you need a better appreciation.

As for this whole idea that Satan is the one who does evil ... this simply is not the case. It is God who created, and does, evil -- admittedly so. Read the OT. Show me where Satan is ever blamed when disaster et al befell the Hebrews. You won't find it. The Jews recognized Yahweh as the one responsible for disasters and dishing out punishment. They had sinned--offended God in some way--and payed the price. We see this played out numerous times in the Hebrew Scriptures--particularly in Job.

Job states, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away" (Job 1:21). Notice he didn't say 'The Lord gave and Satan took away'. And what does he tell his poor wife: "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not (also) receive evil?" (Job 2:10). At the end of the Book of Job, even his friends acknowledge that God does evil: "all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (Job 42:11 cp. 19:21; 8:4).

~GOD CREATES EVIL~

*Lamentations 3:38: Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL and good?

*Jeremiam 26:3: If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the EVIL, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

*Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the EVIL which I intend to do to them, so that every one may turn from his evil way, and that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

*Jeremiah 32:42 For thus says Yahweh: Just as I have brought all this great EVIL upon this people, so I will bring upon them all the good that I promise them.

*Amos 3:6 Does EVIL befall a city, unless Yahweh has done it?

*Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore, thus says Yahweh, Behold, I am bringing EVIL upon them which they cannot escape; though they cry to me, I will not listen to them.

*Jeremiah 14:16 And the people to whom they are prophesying, Are cast into out-places of Jerusalem, Because of the famine, and of the sword, And they have none burying them, Them, their wives, and their sons, and their daughters, And I have poured out upon them this EVIL. (YLT)

*Jeremiah 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says Yahweh, Behold, I am shaping EVIL against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

*Jeremiah 19:3 You shall say, 'Hear the word of Yahweh, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such EVIL upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.

*Jeremiah 19:15 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon this city and upon all its towns all the EVIL that I have pronounced against it, because they have stiffened their neck, refusing to hear my words.

*Jeremiah 23:12 Therefore their way shall be to them like slippery paths in the darkness, into which they shall be driven and fall; for I will bring EVIL upon them in the year of their punishment, says Yahweh.

*Jeremiah 26:13 Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of Yahweh your Elohim, and Yahweh will repent of the EVIL which he has pronounced against you.

*Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore, thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of hosts, the Elohim of Israel: Behold, I am bringing on Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the EVIL that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them and they have not listened, I have called to them and they have not answered.

*Jeremiah 36:31 And I will punish him and his offspring and his servants for their iniquity; I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the EVIL that I have pronounced against them, but they would not hear.

*Jeremiah 40:2 The captain of the guard took Jeremiah and said to him, "Yahweh your Elohim pronounced this EVIL against this place;

*Jeremiah 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I repent of the EVIL which I did to you.

*Jeremiah 42:17 All the men who set their faces to go to Egypt to live there shall die by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence; they shall have no remnant or survivor from the EVIL which I will bring upon them.

*Jeremiah 44:2 Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the Elohim of Israel: You have seen all the EVIL that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them,

*Jeremiah 45:5 And do you seek great things for yourself? Seek them not; for, behold, I am bringing EVIL upon all flesh, says Yahweh; but I will give you your life as a prize of war in all places to which you may go.

*Jeremiah 49:37 I will terrify Elam before their enemies, and before those who seek their life; I will bring EVIL upon them, my fierce anger, says Yahweh. I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them;

*Jeremiah 51:64 and say, 'Thus shall Babylon sink, to rise no more, because of the EVIL that I am bringing upon her.'" Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

*Ezekiel 6:10 And they shall know that I am Yahweh; I have not said in vain that I would do this EVIL to them.

*Micah 2:3 Therefore thus says Yahweh: Behold, against this family I am devising EVIL, from which you cannot remove your necks; and you shall not walk haughtily, for it will be an evil time.

*1 Kings 21:29 Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the EVIL in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the EVIL upon his house.

*2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus says Yahweh, Behold, I will bring EVIL upon this place and upon its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which was read before the king of Judah.

*2 Chronicles 34:28 Behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the EVIL which I will bring upon this place and its inhabitants.'" And they brought back word to the king.

*1 Samuel 16:23 And whenever the EVIL spirit from [the] Elohim was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the EVIL spirit departed from him.

*1 Samuel 18:10 And on the morrow an EVIL spirit from [the] Elohim rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand;

*1 Samuel 19:9 Then an EVIL spirit from Yahweh came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing the lyre.

*1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an EVIL spirit from [the] Elohim is tormenting you.

*1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of Yahweh departed from Saul, and an EVIL spirit from Yahweh tormented him.

*Micah 1:12 For the inhabitants of Maroth wait anxiously for good, because EVIL has come down from Yahweh to the gate of Jerusalem.

*2 Samuel 12:11-12 Thus says Yahweh, 'Behold, I will raise up EVIL against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.'

*Judges 9:23 And [the] Elohim sent an EVIL spirit between Abim'elech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abim'elech;

*1 Kings 14:10 therefore behold, I will bring EVIL upon the house of Jerobo'am, and will cut off from Jerobo'am every male, both bond and free in Israel, and will utterly consume the house of Jerobo'am, as a man burns up dung until it is all gone.

*2 Kings 21:12 therefore thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, Behold, I am bringing upon Jerusalem and Judah such EVIL that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle.

*Isaiah 31:2 And He also [is] wise, and can bring disaster ...

As for Lucifer ... Lucifer is in reference to an egotistical and arrogant Babylonian king--not Satan!

Henry Neufeld (a Christian apologist who comments on Biblical sticky issues):

"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king... How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."

AND:

... Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".--A Pilgrim's Path, Robinson, John, J., pp. 47-48

Satan is not the evil character that later Christianity made him out to be--did not rebel against God. Again, he is an angel that resides on God's heavenly court. He is an agent/obstacle of God's will, going before God when he wished to do evil against someone, a town, city, or land.

Lucifer is not an angel.

No rebellion and no angel.

Both professor Elaine Pagels (Princeton) and Gregory Riley (Claremont School of Theology) discuss these topics in their in respected works "The Origin of Satan" and "The River of God." Both books highly recommended.

I have the good fortune of having next-door neighbors who are devoutly Jewish. So I asked them their opinion regarding said issue.

From: sean**********
Subject: SATAN!
Date: December 19, 2007 10:06:37 AM EST
To: DAVID ********

Good morning David. Get your attention? Ha-ha-ha! I have a question regarding your faith. If I'm treading on personal ground here, please do not hesitate to tell me to take a long walk--er, roll--off a short pier! Of course, the question is in regards to the figure of "Satan" found in the Tanakh. Why? I am constantly debating Evangelicals regarding said figure. Their view is well known--an evil fallen angel (completely misidentified with "Lucifer") in spiritual combat with Yahweh so forth and so on. His role in the Tanakh (an agent/obstacle/adversary who answers to Yahweh) is something completely different then what later Christianity made him out to be. Historically, the evolution of Satan is easily charted--having his birth in Persian dualism (Zoroastrianism et al) in and around the 7th century BCE. To make a long story short, it wasn't until the the Middle Ages--in 563 CE and the Council of Braga (there were several councils), the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) et al--that this figure was clearly defined by Christianity. Dante aided in the definition of Satan, demons and hell as well. His influence was quite profound as you well know.

Elaine Pagels (Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University and a favorite of mine) has written one of the seminal works on this issue entitled "The Origin of Satan." Here is a brief synopsis:

Pagels charts the evolution of the Jewish and Christian concept of evil from Old Testament times to the present day (although the majority of the book deals with the New Testament era). She explains how 'Satan' didn't always refer to an evil being but was initially used to represent an obstacle. After that meaning, it evolved into a meaning which was used to unify your group against your enemies/adversaries or 'satan'. The Jews still don't, nor did they ever, believe in or create the Satan/Devil being/creature/character of Christian lore. It wasn't until New Testament times and later that the concept of an evil being who is actually called 'Satan' or the 'Devil' or 'Lucifer' evolved. It is interesting to see how these concepts have continued to persist throughout religious and political history with groups stigmatizing others not in their group (whether it be religious, political, racial, etc.) as being 'of the devil'. Dictatorships and other authoritarian organizations always need an external enemy to bind their followers together.



The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics by Elaine Pagels
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Christi...4481&sr=1-1

May I ask, as a person of the Jewish faith, what your view is of Satan, David? Would you agree with Pagels?

Most respectfully,

Sean

Here was David's response ...

Sean
On Dec 19, 2007, at 7:01 PM, H David ******** wrote:

Dear Sean,

There is not much too disagree with Pagels. Demonization of an outsider has always been necessary to form group cohesiveness. (the Nazis, the Klan, the Party and so forth. We will not get into the Muslims. ) See attachment. This quote is from "A People Apart" the history of European Jews from the Enlightenment to the Start of WWII by David Vital.

I can not speak for all or some of my fellow Jews. I am not sure I hold the view that I will present is shared by a few, some , many or most Reform Jews. I have never heard of a Rabbi speaking of the devil in any sermon I ever heard. I hear about individual responsibility to follow God's commandments.

I find no character in the Old Testament that in any way resembles the devil. Jews believe in free will. If you believe in God then you follow his 617 or so laws. If you disobey God's law, then you either don't believe in God or you decided for a multitude of reasons to disobey God's law. There is no outside force. Angels did not speak for God or act for God. For the most part in the Pentateuch God spoke directly to someone. Later on God spoke through prophets who stated "this is what the Lord wants me to say". The prophet Samuel passed God's word to both Saul and David. When Saul disobeyed God, he died. Nathan told David to cut it out when David misbehaved. David, got hot pants for Bathsheba, a human trait. No excuses that someone made them do it. He regretted it, he prayed for forgiveness, but he did it and God disliked disobedience to his laws.

Often in the Tom and Jerry Cartoons Tom is pictured with two cats on his shoulders telling him to do the opposite. One is an angel the other a devil. Zoroastrian in origin and a mostly Christian position. I doubt the Universalists hold that view. Jews don't think that way unless they are trying to convince a Christian jury to acquit.

The devil is a convenient and easy way to explain bad behavior and also makes it easy for someone to be saved. People who believe in the devil basically say they have no power to control their own life; their willingness to choose bad is not their doing but the doing of the devil. They are weak in character and will not admit it. So blame someone else.

Of course, if someone you oppose is painted as the devil, then all the better because it excuses inexcusable acts.

I hope this provides you with some insight.,

David

Most kindly,

Sean



I love this!

Of course God created evil God created everything according to most Christian views and therefore evil since evil is included in everything.


Ecclesiastes

3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

It is all part of 'god's' plan. A time to kill, hate and war? If all these things which can be considered evil part of God's plan then why is it so hard for some to believe that he created them for the fulfillment of his plan? And that He is using us all as pawns and in which ultimately It will grant us all enlightenment or salvation?

This was enough to convince me!

Me too!!!!!

Doesnt make God uncompassionate but simply illumines more to God's nature. God does very well have a 'good and evil' aspect but also that which transcends opposites which is the true good. Mystical union.

Lt Ripley you answered everyones post except mine?
No response?


Always a pleasure

I always thought Jesus' "coming again" ("second coming" isn't actual Biblical), was his spiritual coming, or 'arising' (aka "ressurection")

yes you are correct

No, I appreciate your view if it is the same one that coincides with the Jewish view. The Jewish view as I now understand it was not what was coming across before in your view. Either way thank you for showing me the Outreach page which led me to dig deeper and better understand and appreciate the Jewish view and for also clarifying your view since to me understanding each other is more ideal than disagreeing with each other. I hope you feel the same. The Christian view though is quite different as we all know since we believe the New Testament further reveals some facets that the Old Testament did not. It is not a case of one disagreeing with the other but simply having more detail when using both according to the Christian view, which I might add is not the only view, but it is the Christian view. Even in that effort some Christians will disagree as in the case of our most esteemed Paranoid Android. Perhaps that is because the view of Christians within the United States is different than that of those in Australia generally speaking.

In terms of which is right and wrong which was implied by sean's view when he said, 'As for this whole idea that Satan is the one who does evil ... this simply is not the case,' I would rather not use such language since to me understanding the differences between the Jewish and Christian views and why each subscribe to different ones is more important. So as far as looking at the Bible as including both Testaments the whole idea that Satan is the one who does evil is the Christian view and it is necessarily the case in that regard. This is not the only difference in the Jewish and Christian view, as I am sure we all know, and personally there is no profit for and of us in attempting to claim one is more right than the other, we simply subscribe to different views, for different reasons, and rightfully so.

Thanks for the info, Lt R. I think you misunderstood my question. I asked for information about the connotations of the word translated as "evil". Instead, you quoted this, which is information I was already aware of, and by all accounts, entirely supported what I already believed. I asked you for a dictionary/commentary on the word translated as "evil" in Isaiah 45:7, and you actually quote a site that agrees that it should not be translated "evil". Let me demonstrate, from the site you quoted:

It appears that the Hebrews did not have a devil-like power opposed to God. Satan, or the Satan as he is often called, is an angel in the court of God with the function of an accuser (see Job 1:6). There are also indications that along with all that is "good," all that is "evil" comes from God, not Satan. In Isaiah 45:7 God says: "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things."

*boldened relevant section* - even this site quotes a version that translates Isaiah 45 as "woe", not as "evil". As I have said, and I hope I make myself completely clear here - I agree with the Jewish view of God creating evil. I am even somewhat in agreement that there may not have been a "rebellion in heaven" (though there may have been). Satan is an "accusing angel", and your site supports that view. BUT, you kept quoting Isaiah 45 and demanding that it should be translated as "evil" quoting all sorts of commentaries as to why, but not ever addressing the word which is translated as "evil". And when I ask, you quote a site that uses a translation that uses "woe", not "evil". Not really a convicing argument that Isaiah 45 should be "evil", and not "disaster/calamity/misery/woe/etc"......

if one admits God created everything that would include evil . ! all to serve Gods purpose . all a function of God. You can't have an almighty God that's all knowing and all powerful that is somehow powerless against some foreign agent. Even in Job , evil aka Satan had to ask God for permission to torture the guy. without Gods permission 'evil' can do nothing.