If it took 700 years for the prophecy of Jesus' coming to us to be born and transpire to actual...Why do many find that 2000 years is such a long length of time for him to return?

I have a similar post in Ancient Topics about this too...


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=125800

Revelations isn't an immediate concern to me, let it be real or not. Nuclear or Biological Warfare, Over or Under population, global warming or other environmental hazards, asteroids, plague like disease, food and water shortages, and of course the ever prevalent threat of zombies, aliens, and robots provide a much more immediate threat then an Apocalypse two thousand years in the making.

Whatever the end is I just hope we fight against it.

as far as revelations go - as most think and here's a good quote on it -

James Kelhoffer, an assistant professor of theological studies at Saint Louis University:

"Many people who have interpreted the rich symbolism and mythology of [Revelation] have read into it to reflect on a world cataclysm within their lifetime. It greatly misunderstands ancient Jewish and Christian prophets who always talk about apocalypses within their own time, not several centuries hence.

Allow me to also add this:

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Could you please find these in your bible and give me the book and verse. Tthey dont seem to appear in mine (the rkj) or any of the dozen other types of bilbes we possess.

In fact it says that satan, the fallen angels, and those souls who are not saved will be consumed by fire, utterly, body and soul. They will cease to exist. this is the second death. Until the end time all the dead sleep in their graves.

The bible doesnt say we will go to hell and suffer when we die. This myth is one of the single biggest reasons for people to turn on god and thus on christians. And yet it is a total misconception. Satan certainly is not going to be ruling anthing any time. This concept grew out of middle ages catholicism (or perhaps earlier) and was extended and popularised by dante and other writers in later times. I just wish people would get over it. Read the bible if you dont believe me. Its all there, clear and simple. Ive given most of the verses many times before and blowed if ill do it again.

The closest thing the bible comes to commenting on this issue is that; when satan, the beast, the fallen angels, and the damned are killed by the lake, or the rain of fire, which cleanses the earth of sin, each may suffer proportionally to their sins. However this is a strictly limited time. How do we know? Because they are burned in the fire which cleanses the earth. Shortly later the earth is created new again as a paradise like eden, and the saved humans are returned to it to resume the life designed for them which was so rudely interrupted in Eden. The fires will be well and truly gone by then.

When the bible says a fire is not extinguished it means that it is not deliberately put out, but in the end those fires die out like any fire, even though they are never extinguished (get my drift).

No lesser authority than jesus made it perfectly clear that when people die they go to the grave. The bible says quite clearly "the wages of sin is death" Not "the wages of sin is everlasting torment in hell ,being pushed around by satan". God would not allow Satan such dominion over any one again, not even the worst sinner. Apart from being a just god, he wishes to absolutely end satans existence and his experiment with humanity. The bible also says that once sin is removed from the earth it will cease to exist and never, ever appear again. This would not be true if satan and sinners were all cooking along nicely in hell, would it. Cos then sin would not have ceased to exist.

Be happy

By Jesus' own words there are certain things that must happen before the end. My post on the first page of this thread shows many of the scriptures within Matthew 24 that show many of those things have only not have happened in history but were not possible until now.



Revelation also has many scriptures that were not possible any time until history until now. The two witnesses that the beast shall have slain and leave on the street for all the world to see. When that was written one could not even see the dead in the next village. With satellite television and 24-7 cable news networks this is possible. The mark of the beast that no man can buy or sell without it. That is not something that was also never possible. It is an economic system that requires certain technology that has only began to come into vogue.

You, Ripley, do not even believe in the Bible, you say it is not true, so your views on prophecies, which you also likely do not believe in, are simply not valid. Some choose to say prophecy has already happened and are genuine in their opinion but for those who only do so as a way to disagree with Christians.

Reading through this thread I was reminded why I see certain religions as religions of death. I basically see people who can't wait to die... that is such a shame
All the energy and eargerness put into this longing for death put into making the world, and humanity, richer, would potentially end up with paradise on earth and we could go from there.

So you are saying hell is a temporary punishment? I don't quite agree with that.

Matthew 25:41
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 3:12
12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Daniel 12:2-3
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

Mark 9:47-49
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.' 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Revelation 14:10-11
10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:10
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:46
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Who here is longing to die? Make sure to include a quote too please. Or is it that you are just upset because you have no plans? I believe life should not be wasted as it is a precious gift from God. But He also tells us to watch for the end times.

Luke
34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Why should I quote anyone as I am not adressing someone specifically?
Well you are very right in that life should not be wasted but longing or watching for the end times is some of the biggest waste of life I can think of. Since you use your religion as an excample the watching for the end times is a rule to follow through your whole life. How much living or getting people of the streets and so on could you have done while doing this "watching" ? And by watching for the end times I personally include you into the people who long for death... or look forward to death, or maybe you are not looking forward to death? In front of me and god who reads this too would you say that you are not just a little anxious about what awaits you?

A rich life would be a life where you do not spend time or energy on what might happen after it. Take your time to live it and maybe if you can, make life even better for your kin and the people around you. If you long for some end times or death then there is no way you apply the care you could to those things.

You do not have to find it appealing. Your view though that it is a death cult and that those who subscribe to the view of the second coming are mentally ill is intolerant hate speech. You paint a group negatively and if everyone thought like you it would lead to persecution of that group.



That is not the actual definition of cult but I do agree that is the popular view.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology_of_religion



Your view is intolerant. Is also demonizes a group which can lead to horrible things if the rest of society thought as you.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonization





http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=79071

To give us a little basis for your claim perhaps?



I think you might need to get out a dictionary and look up the word watching. It means being observant of what is happening around you. Are the main points in your day eating and sleeping?



Honestly, I did read those words up there but I just.. sorry.



Really dragging this post out aren't you. Why do I feel I just wasted my time?

If you feel as insulted about what a wrote as this gives me the impression you did then I think I hit the nail right on the head with you.
Nothing usefull in this answer though so I think I will just leave it up to chance to figure out if you got the point or not. Its pretty clear.

No, I'm thinking everyone could hear a big sigh when reading it. I hope you do leave it up to chance as these posts are clearly not fruitful to this thread. I am going to do my part starting now.

Here is one thing that "everyone", myself included at one time, has failed to keep in mind. "He will come like a thief in the night". With all of the scripture notations being quoted as a roadmap to when the end, as we know it, will come a lot of people think they have a guide without taking into account the "thief in the night" passage - BIG MISTAKE! My belief is that "Big A" is already here and is about to be seated to power by the beginning of next year. I fear the 3rd SEAL is upon us.

I agree with you about the thief in the night definitely. He can come 10 minutes or 10 years from now. No one knows the hour that is for sure.

I believe Prince William is a good contender for the Antichrist. Some claim he has the bloodline of Jesus. Others claim he has the more sinister bloodline of the Quinotaur through his mother. I do believe that their marriage was arranged, since Prince Charles had the title, but a weak bloodline, and Lady Di had the actual bloodline, their son has both title and bloodline. He will be 30 in 2012. In the mid term of the seven years, three and a half later, he will be 33. This is when the Antichrist might die as Revelation says he will be mortally wounded and the false prophet will restore his life. Considering Jesus was 30 when He began His ministry and was introduced on the world stage and was then 33 when He was Crucified and Resurrected... well we all know Satan loves to mimic Truth. Part of that would have his 'messiah' come to power at 30 and die to be born again at 33. Just a theory though I am not casting any eggs in the basket.

I feel the end times are here. The rapture can happen anytime before or during tribulation. What are your views? Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Post-trib? I do not have one and think when it comes it will come.

Oh my favorite rapture songs:

Crystal Lewis - People Get Ready Jesus is Coming Soon The bass on this song is nice with a bass system ^__^

and the original version of I Wish We'd All Been Ready though DC Talks version is not so bad.

The lyrics are nice too.



http://www.lyricsdepot.com/dc-talk/i-wish-...been-ready.html

Personally! I somewhat believe in God. BUT, I will not worship/bow to a God who has double standards.
God says thou shalt not do this/that on several things. But, when it comes down to it, the people he supposedly
created that do not believe in God or follow God are in fact doomed to unimaginable suffering and pain.

What kind of SICK JOKE is that? Personally, I find it to be completely absurd.

That is a common view. The Bible says I cannot do this and this or I will go to hell so I think it is absurd. It is not a sick joke though because for you it is not real or true. So luckily you do not have to worry about any of that. As for my view The Bible says I can truly live and I see much of the things I like doing, you name it I've done it, harm me more than not. Luckily the one with just a small amount of true faith (that is believing in God and giving your life to Him) has enough faith to compare to someone who has already conquered most of the sin in their life. Also all the rules in the Bible are something to work towards to and they are an impossible goal without the Spirit. They just are not going to happen given our nature. The goal is not sinning intentionally instead of stopping all sin. It is about catching yourself with the Helper and then saying I do not have to do that, get mad, use stimulants, feel depressed, think about suicide, use sex not for love but as an addiction, well maybe not everyone is that messed up but for those of us who are we are the ones who need God more than anyone. That is just another view. And for all those living perfect lives without God I am so glad for you. I need Him though for myself because I am weak and I have found and will continue to find perfection when I turn to Him for my life. So forget being worried about some fiery place called hell when I die. I want out of the hell I find myself in at times in the here and now.

The second coming is just a side perk if and when it happens. My mind is focused on the here and now and bettering myself. Learning how to love cause as I found out after so many years, being romantic and wooing girls is not love, it is just using others for your own selfish needs. I am sure many will disagree with me on every point but luckily they do not validate my beliefs and neither do those who would agree with me. I have to validate my own beliefs for me.

The fact is I wasn't speaking about all christians just those who seem to think that the world is coming to an end at any given moment, usually soon, and not all christians believe so. The few that do believe in the an end of the world scenario, seem bent on this fascination with it, that it becomes a focus to their entire existance. As for my previous post, do you believe people like David Koresh or Jim Jones were sane? Usually if someone is living their life waiting for their life to end thats not a sign of a healthy mind. You can honestly say that someone focused on their death and the death of the entire world is healthy? I have no issue with people believing what they want, but the effect that it has on the world hasn't been great. Some Christians believing they will recieve a new earth means they can trash this one any way they want. When it comes to a belief system I don't have to paint certain christians negatively, they do it to themselves just fine. I find it sad that anyone can believe that waiting for the world to end is something that is a good and positive thing.

Allow me to show you the way out of hell:

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

There it is.

There is also an interesting story in the bible.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Here we have the words from someone in hell. He doesn't think its absurd and unfair or a sick joke he is there. If he did, wouldn't this be the first thing he says and scream it at the top of his lungs. It's as though he finds hell an acceptable, fair punishment. Just something to ponder.

Personally, I do not care for those stories; I have heard them more than once.

In the end, God is still favoring a double standard. God says thou shalt not do this/that, worship me and you
will rejoice eternally in heaven. While at the same time in religious texts it shows God not being so friendly
countless times. (An old saying comes to mind when I read these things. Do as I say, and NOT as I do).
I myself do not find that to be a very good way for God to be teaching it's children.

Interesting conjecture, zanpukto -- but which Scriptures do you feel say that *this will be in OUR generation*?

Again interesting conjecture (in my opinion), but, on what evidence do you base this statement?
Not that You are wrong in what you write, but what proof can you put forward to substantiate this?

Just pondering...
Karlis

Yes -- and here is just one major prophecy; that there will be great peace (world-wide ???) and only THEN will the big crunch "big bad bang" event occur. As I see it -- we are a very long way from that scenario, agreed?

QUOTE (WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT @ May 17 2008, 08:59 PM)
If it took 700 years for the prophecy of Jesus' coming to us to be born and transpire to actual...Why do many find that 2000 years is such a long length of time for him to return?






Yes Bleach...

Ive often wondered...(one of this things I ponder upon) He is patient with us, more so than we are with each other in this lifetime.....It would seem so appropriate, and in desperate need, given the the quote above, that perhaps some signs to the people, from the Lord, would bring the world around to opening their eyes and finding this Love and patience within each other....

Think about the mass repentance that would ignite....To finally have with out doubt by anyone...
But, then again... why not spark that just from the understanding and acceptance we should all have in our hearts already for our fellow man.

But as you stated above....
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Its gonna take the BIG GUY!


Just what are we waiting for?

Blessings to you honey...

G'day Cradle of Fish -- AHA!
Now I see why you do not accept the NT writings.
* All the apostles including Paul, and John the author of the book of Revelation, were sure that the second coming would be in their lifetime.

However, if God wished to keep that time from being revealed to the world, methinks God did a really fine job of it.

What think you?
Karlis

Everyone thought that the anti-christ would be in there time. Hitler, Emperor Nero, people even thought Ronald Wilson Reagan because each of his names had six letters forming 666.

The truth is we dont know when....and quite frankly, I dont care...

I dont think we ((( "Cult" Christians, I forget who said that...(lol) ))) "dwell" on when its coming...but as with other things in life...Im interested in when it does...

Are there those who obsess like the Karesh peeps...Absolutly....Was "he" and his followers "crazy"....Absolutly.... But, It is totally unfair to label or say "all" are as crazy as he was because they belong to a religion or "cult" as it was called....

If my feeble old mind has taken it out of context, then my appologies here and now...

I dont lose sleep,worry, dwell, anxiety over it...If its in these next 50 yrs...well, OK, and if Im dead and gone and it happens 200 yrs from now, well thats OK too.....

The bags under my eyes are from my 44 years, not from exahaustion in fear of this event....I dont know why some waste time trying to push this opinion..but, hey, they can if they want to....

But most importantly, when it does, if its in my life time...Im ready. Are you?

Warrior that you don't dwell on it means to me that you don't fall into a cult mentality. That being said I still don't understand from what I know of the bible why so much focus is given on revelations. I still think expecting the world to end is morbid but to each his own I guess. I have christian friends who at one time or another believed the world was going to end within the year and when it didn't happen they just sort of shrugged and went on about their lives, still expecting at any moment they'd be taken up to heaven. One even has a bumper sticker that says "in case of Rapture this vehicle will be unmanned". I just do not understand people who live in expectation of the events in revelation to come to pass. Why not wake up with the expectation that world is moving to something better and be part of it?

Thats just it...something better is expected...and they want to be apart of it, me included.

I cant find morbidity in that. Perhaps its a sense of hope or betterment for mankind....

Bumper sticker is cute! But not everyone thinks the same...thats what makes us human....

But I think alot of emphisis is placed on the Rapture because its equated to seeing someone you live your life in admiration and strive to be like...
Who rocks your world? If you ve ever had a child and love that person more than anyone else...it would equate to a love even higher than that.... They want to see him...

Who would turn away from a promise of life and never ending love and peace?

I will walk the higher path, even if it is the harder way to live and takes the most effort to live by.

Whats the worst that can happen to me,if my choice is wrong, or, the result of an empty promise?
I helped people along my path? I gave away something that I "wanted" to someone that "needed"?
I was a nice person? I made life for someone else easier and mine a little harder?

You get it.... Ive lost nothing....

This is exactly why your view is dangerous because it is based on from 'not understanding' but then casting a wide net of suspicion. This is the mindset that led to all persecution in the past and if only the persecutors were more educated many tragedy's could have been avoided. This is the same mindset that allows some ignorant Christians to believe Pagans all engage in baby sacrifice and are evil. Yet a few of those Pagans turn around and do the same thing. Luckily many of us are not going to engage in those debates while the highly uneducated of both camps will continue to point fingers at each other. What good people should always do though is attempt to squash intolerant mindsets wherever they spring up.



The majority believe in Christian eschatology but the same majority do not focus solely on the end but rather they focus on the living in the here and now.



Your demonization of a broad group is an intolerant view that needs to be quenched as all intolerant views. Only education can combat that and calling it a spade for when it creeps up. If your view was to take hold in an organized group the Anti-Defamation League would quickly label that group as an extremist hate group. Your views are unorganized but stop for a moment and do a self inventory and assess them because they are extremist hate messages, the seeds of it, which need to be stamped out before they can take root.



Your stereotypes do it for you fine. Your view seems vastly ignorant and out of touch with the majority of the Christian mindset. Your attempt to claim anyone who espouses Christian eschatology is part of a death cult ignores the fact that many do so in a much larger world view that encompasses many things but is more focused on the day to day affairs of our lives. Your criticism is unfounded but can be compared to all classic cases of when one group demonizes another. They always take the worse examples like Hitler blaming socialist for burning down the Reichstag and claiming the socialist mindset would lead to more similar acts. This is evident in your view of attempting to equate the majority of Christians to Jim Jones.



http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MUHome/c...ganda/pol4.html

This is what is dangerous about your view is that in this classic formula replayed time and time again throughout history leads to the very things many recognize as the worse things that can happen. If the majority were to take your view then in the end it will lead to persecution on some level. We must act to stop such views especially when we know the mistakes of why the Holocaust happened we cannot repeat those mistakes or allow others to begin to remake them.





http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/dehumanization/

no im saying that hell as modern peple see it does not exist at all in the bible as writeen, either in the old testament or the new one. It is a concept added later. Im writing from work and dont have my notes or references with me but basically originally the punish ment for sin was death pure and simple. even jesus said so. the church added the concept eternal punish ment in helll much later. There are better experts than me on language and culture of the bible and its times, but basically people ar applying one modern concept of a word to what is written That was not the meaning or context of the time and not what the original writters meant. This is a fairly clearly established historical fact and can easily seen by applying consistent interprewation of words across the bible.

Eon came from a greek word meaning a long or indeterminate time but not for ever. Hades is a greek word with greek cultural context added later. Jesus spoke of ghenna where the bodies were burned and talked of the bodies being burned and rotted by the worms.

eternal and everlasting do not mean what they appear to because they cannot. Your qoute about unquenchable fire below illustrates this clearly. The fire is unquenchable. it cannot be put out. but ventually, when all is consumed it burns out. It remains unquenched but it is ended


When, i think it was samuel, was placed into the priesthood the bible said this was for ever/eternity. What it meant was for his life time And the word is used in the same context talking about many of the things you quote below

The one about the fire from the burning rising for ever and ever is an interesting one. Again it cant mean a time period because those fires will be quenhed to restablish the new earth. Even a quick mlook shows the correct context because it is something we could easily say today. When i was caught in a major bushfire, the smoke did indeed seem to rise for ever and ever into the sky The end of it could not be seen. thus this speaks in a visual context rather than a temporal one. it is important to have both an historical knowledge of the language and historical context of the bbile and a complete knowledge of it all, to correctly and logically interpret what it says
For example you have used a quote which helps prove my point



The only form of everlasting destruction is death. You are assuming that it is talking about a punishment that is everlasting, But even given our disagreement on what everlasting means this says that they will be destroyed and that destruction will be permanent. . It goes with gods words that sin and evil will be utterly destroyed and never arise again. If the devil and the damned exist in hell neither are they destroyed nor is sin or evil finnished with.



Im prey sure that this quote particularly was originally written in the greek with a word that was either eon or a root word for it. At the time this denoted a fixed and indeterminate period of time and that could be a considerable period of time but not for ever.It goes with the quotes which indicate satan and the beast will suffer the longest and other will suffer a period commensurate with their sins, but it clearly also shows that satan is under the power and authority of god>he is not going to be in charge of anything, particularly lost souls.

finally the whole bile shows that god is aloving and just entity who sees hiscreations as his children such an entity might punish hischildren but not in the way the concept of hell indicates. god only destroys the wicked because he has to.To leave them alive would allow the potential reinfection of earth and humanity with sin. With the absolute destruction of all those who choose to continue sinning sin itself is ended forever.

i appreciate you probably won''\t believe, or even accept, this. The modern concept has been ingrained in humanity's psyche for at least a thousand years thanks to the teaching of catholicism. However those who actually study the bible usually find that it simply is not a biblical concept. All i ask is that you do not accept any one elses doctrine(including mine()but read through the bible and make an "äcademic"study of it.

Clovis you have replied now to my posts but it seems like you think that I am discussing all christians when I talk about my views. I have stated again and again, SOME or a FEW but you seem to think I'm talking about every single christian on earth. Why is that?
I also had to edit this because in your last post you made it seem like I was talking about Nazi's and that was another poster that you did not identify.

edited to add last sentence...

I by no means have the whole bible commited to memory, but this passage does not gel with me. May be i just dont recognise it, because of its use of modern language, but it sounds more like a bible story, rather than a story from the bible. I dont think you gave the full book and verse on this. I would honestly appreciate it if you could do so. Knowing its precise source will allow me to read it myself, look at its biblical context, and do some research around it.

Mr Walker


Book of Luke 16:20

Because the majority of Christians subscribe to Christians eschatology. Something you are not aware of it seems and are now implying it is a minority to allow you to maintain your intolerant beliefs that are on the verge of hate speech that demonize a vast group within this country if you are American.





http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020701/story.html

While I take some issue with the Bible predicting 911 the fact remains there are many people in America that believe in prophecy and the Bible. We and you are neighbors and have to find a way to live in accord and understanding. I myself see your views are like Hitlers and just as deadly so made that connection as mostly anyone else would who knows the seeds of mistrust and suspicion begin with views like yours and then eventually lead to hatred and persecution. Your view also fails to realize the simple fact that end time belief is not emphasized.




http://www.beliefnet.com/story/196/story_19630_1.html

So now it seems you are the one lumping all christians into one group. I know many christians who do not believe in the end of the world, either in revelations form or any other. I think that you are the one generalizing saying that all christians believe in the rapture. I would also say that just because the majority of the country is christian doesn't mean that is the majority thought on the subject, and that doesn't by definition make it right either. What I said was is that people who expect the world to end tomorrow or in the next month are the minority, and while you may think my opinion is hate speech I think you are over reacting. You never answered the question as to whether you thought people like Koresh or Jim Jones were sane or not.

I still myself do not believe in the bible, nor do I believe the world will come to an end anytime soon. I am sure when our sun becomes a red giant life on earth will cease, but that doesn't mean I think that its some kind of judgement on anything. Just the life cycle of our sun. Do I believe that humans may wipe themselves off the earth, of course, we have the capability, but the earth would eventually recover without us. I don't spend anytime preparing for a scenario in a two thousand year old book. I don't know why you insist on calling my views like Hitler. I have never once said that anyone should be hurt for their views. I think you are taking what I say and blowing it hugely out of proportion. I'd say I feel insulted but your use of Hitler to compare to my opinions is so ludicrous that it doesn't deserve to be addressed really other than what I've said....

Thank you. I will have a closer look at, and study on this, when i get home. I do recall that this story sits within a number of stories clearly defined as parables in that section of luke .(Thats why its story line seemed like a story rather than biblical to me, i guess) Im not saying that it was just a parable, because even if it was, it uses imagery at odds with many other statements by jesus, but i will investigate. Some would also argue that he was using an image to comment on his own death and ressurection and the fact that many would not be convinced by this miracle either. On face value it seems to establish a prima facie case for hades (the word used in my bible)RSV

Because it actually contradicts so much of what jesus said, and most of the rest of the bible, i suspect he was using it as an illustrative story rather than a literal account. Certainly the listeners at the time would have understood the cultural context and it is probably still possible to discover this from modern scholars. i will check it out.

Thanks again.

The majority of Christians do believe in Christian eschatology. I am not lumping them all together since there are some who do not. What I was doing is showing how your view is intolerant of all the majority who do actually believe in end times by claiming they might have mental illness or they support what happened at Jim Jones. Both are vile thoughts.



It is not an overreaction it is vigilance against hate speech and being one who advocates that it should not be allowed to take root within society.



Maybe you missed it?



[quote]darkmoonlady wrote: I have never once said that anyone should be hurt for their views. I think you are taking what I say and blowing it hugely out of proportion. I'd say I feel insulted but your use of Hitler to compare to my opinions is so ludicrous that it doesn't deserve to be addressed really other than what I've said....[quote]

I never claimed you wanted to hurt others for their views but your view will lend itself to that if allowed to grow. History has taught us this repeatedly. Please though do not feel insulted because I am speaking about your view and its possible ramifications...nothing more or less. As for you I do not believe you yourself harbor any hatred of the violent type and you most likely are saying what you do in a caring fashion. But even the Germans thought they were caring about something to and in doing so did one of the vilest things in history and it all began with the thought that are similar to 'the other group might have mental illness or support incidents like the Jim Jones massacre. I will bow out of this conversation with you since my case has been made and you can fail to see how your view can lend to something terrible later on down the line but the possibility will remain there. I can only encourage you to revise your views in the interests of tolerance and being responsible knowing such views can have ill effects in the future.

WHAT makes you think it will be in your lifetime?

It is indeed a parable, one of a long series of parables starting all the way back in Luke 14. See the way in which many of those parables are started. All the parables start along the lines of, "suppose one of you lost a sheep", or "suppose a woman has ten coins". They are all anonymous, vaguely referencing an anonymous person. Of particular note, though, are the following:

Jesus replied: "A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests....... (14:16)
Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons....... (15:11)
Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions........ (16:1)

And now for this one: "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day..... (16:19).

The same vague reference to an unnamed man exists in this story as in the other parables - it is clearly beginning according to the style of conventional parable. So the question then becomes - a parable for what? The answer to which, I think, is rooted in the crucifixion and resurrection. According to the parable, the rich man went to this place of burning and pleaded with Abraham to send him back and warn his family. Abraham said they had the Law and the Prophets. The next section is very telling:

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The point of this parable is a herald to the future when Jesus did die and was resurrected (rose from the dead), and showed that when this happens, not everyone will listen or believe. And since parables are conventionally written to convey ONLY ONE spiritual truth, we cannot take the details of this place of suffering as an accurate description of the afterlife - it would be inconsistent with the structure/form of prables to do so

Sorry to take this one from you, Mr Walker

Yes, I believe it is a parable also. What I was trying to say is that hell might just be like that. Fair and deserved to those sent there. I will not claim to know for sure though or say the parable is proof and I don't think or hope I will ever find out.

There is no way to calculate when Jesus will come again. It is up to him.

Christ/God wont be coming back because Christ has never left us.

Good answer. Couldn't agree more. We're working towards a SPIRITUAL return to God, not a material or literal one, in my view.

many people have mentioned that Jesus will come without warning, and nobody will know when.
That is true. Read this quote from Jesus too though.
"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; "men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the power of the heavens will be shaken. They will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great Glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift your heads, because your redemption draws near." Luke 21: 25-28

Does anyone know of someone that has died of a heart attack because of the fear of what is going to happen to the earth? I don't.
Does anyone notice any changes in the sun and moon or stars? I don't.
Does anyone see the waves roaring? I don't.
The distress of nations? Nope, only a few countries are suffering with perplexity out of all the countries there is! which is so many I don't even know how many. So we haven't seen any of these things happen.

Jesus isn't going to come yet apparently. So keep waiting because it will be a while and probably wont be as soon as 2012 just to let you know.

Very interesting perspective Meik. It just might not be 2012 or near it at all. The blessed return of Christ though when all will see Him in the clouds will happen. Something no one has touched on is the difference between the Rapture and and when He returns to destroy the beast and His followers. Which one exactly is the Second Coming? If so is then there a Third Coming? Boy He keeps coming doesn't He lol. But every time is all good.

According to the (now deceased) Australian theologian, D.B. Knox, there are actually 5 comings of Christ - and the one mentioned in Matthew 24 (the "coming in the clouds") was the third, and has already happened. I think the reference in Thessalonians to believers going up into the clouds is again drawing on the same imagery of Daniel in describing God, and therefore do not think the Rapture is a biblical concept - ie, I do not believe there will be a time when believers will simply vanish (be taken up into the clouds). 1 Thessalonians is the only passage that supports a "rapture" and I do not think that is the original intent of the text.

See HERE for some history of the Rapture - no such concept existed until the 18th Century. It is an entirely new teaching (historically speaking, that is - the last 3 centuries only) and I do not think reflects the Bible's stance.

But then again, I'm an A-millenialist when it comes to Eschatological beliefs (End Times).

Just because I don't believe in jesus or the bible ( or any text ) does not make my views invalid. They very well could be more true than your opinions ! Just because I don't believe the bible is from God doesn't mean I don't understand it. to assume so is just ignorant. Do I know all of it ? of course not and dare I say no one here knows it all . well , maybe Mako. lol. Like donuts , is there nothing he can't do ?

I posted a scholars quote - (not my own) that you find fault with. Yet I think his opinion would carry more weight than yours. You may want the bible to mean otherwise , but if you don't understand the people of the time your opinion isn't based on anything other than wishful thinking.

James Kelhoffer, an assistant professor of theological studies at Saint Louis University:

"Many people who have interpreted the rich symbolism and mythology of [Revelation] have read into it to reflect on a world cataclysm within their lifetime. It greatly misunderstands ancient Jewish and Christian prophets who always talk about apocalypses within their own time, not several centuries hence.


oh ps - speaking of Mako - this was on his sig that I saved.

Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common, Children no longer obey their parents. Every man wants to write a book, and the end of the world evidently is approaching.
Assyrian tablet circa 2800 BCE

seems like everyone has been waitng ....... and waiting ....... I figure the end of the earth will happen when the sun goes into red giant. That's my prediction or when we get hit by a astroid or do ourselves in. I'm pretty sure it's one of those 3.

That is what I have read too about the Rapture being a more or less new concept since there are no literay sources prior than the 18th century. It does not change my mind about believing it is still to come for the Word seems clear to me but it is interesting how many believe differently around the world and even in America regarding it. Culturally speaking belief in the Rapture seems to be mostly an American thought (not all Americans but evangelical Christians in America) though through missionary work it has spread around the world. Still it is an American thought product through and through from what I have learned about it.

5 comings of Christ is pretty deep into the study of the Word. I wish I had more time to actually study the tribulation and the comings of Christ because even though I have read all the passaged concerning it and for me it is plain they are talking about future events that have not happened when accounting for all the scriptures I still am not sure when the Rapture will take place, pre- mid- or post-tribulation. Maybe as it says no one knows the time or hour but others have seemed to make pretty sure conclusions within one or the other. The preterist view though is easily dismissed seeing that many of the formulas needed to occur for the tribulation to occur are simply ignored by that view. It is becoming pretty popular at least you would think it by the few who are adamantly vocal about pushing it within all sectors of tribulation thought.

In the words of Christopher Hitchens:

"We are created sick and commanded to be well."