It may not be a question of a “break in the action,” Radio, rather a keeping of tradition. The church claims a historic foundation to the claim that Peter went to Rome to become the first pope even though there is no historic or scriptural support to that claim. A scenario was often created to validate the things the church wanted the laity to believe. So it could easily be with the tale of Luke’s bones being preserved through the generations, dramatically rescued during the Crusades and finally finding its haven within the Vatican.

Considering that the Syrians were well dispersed throughout the Roman Empire, the fact that DNA testing proves the bones to be of a Syrian cannot be held as a conclusive evidence. The actual DNA results indicated that the bones were of a Syrian or Anatolian who died between 72 and 416 A.D. That's quite a span of time to try to associate the bones with a particular individual. There were a minimum of six other bodies of St. Luke. One in Patras, another in Constantinople, another in Antioch, still another in Benevento, one in Rome and the sixth in Venice. His head is in Rome and Prague.

You can find the official DNA report at http://web.unife.it/progetti/genetica/Guido/pdf/18.pdf

We must also remember that the church claims to have the bones of Peter, Jude and Simon, Philip and James and Bartholomew, Matthias and Andrew and Mark. That’s an astonishing accomplishment when one considers that the disciples scattered after the crucifixion and all proof of their fate was lost forever. For each one there is a tale . . . . whether that tale is tradition or truth is the real issue.

Howdy, Ex. We're cool. I'm not pitching a high probability. The sense in which this case might be described as relatively high quality is that it can be taken seriously at all, not that it carries the day against amply justified conservatism.

A problem with OTR's scholars' 95.5% (post #56) is, if that is what was said and it was intended seriously as a probability judgment, then it is an overall personal probability. It would not be just an assessment of the quality of the evidence, but would combine that with some personal prior judgment.

Maybe our exuberant friends went into this investigation with a high prior. A "lifelong atheist" need not have much at stake in there having been a real Luke. Even a weak case can transmute, say, 80% a priori to 95.5% a posteriori.

When OTR put these bones in play back in post #15, he said


I didn't initially agree. I've changed my mind about that; and now, yes, I think it might be. A tip of the hat to OTR for the pointer, and I've already acknowledged my debt to Nuke for grabbing my collar on this one.

There may be a certain irony to the Catholic record on very old bones. Traffic in enough of them, and you just might get a few sets right. Broken clock twice a day, and all that.

I would be interested to know what "further investigation" could be done?

Thank you, Ex -- I couldn't possibly have put it better myself.

--Jaylemurph

Just to add - thanks to eight bits for his exceedingly kind post - not wishing to form a mutual admiration society, but that meant a lot to me coming from one of the clearest thinkers I've had the pleasure to (virtually) meet.

I'm not sure the conversation about Luke's bones has very much more mileage in it; it seems nobody disagrees particularly on the facts of the matter, and so it seems to come down to matter of personal judgment between eight bits' nice summary, to which I of course (and I think OTR) subscribe, namely that there is a low probability that these bones are of Luke, but that there is still a reasonable case to be made and this fact takes it out of the next-to-zero realm of probability of the authenticity of most other claimed relics, and the position of jaylemurph, Expatriate and questionmark that there is really nothing putting this particular claimed relic on any kind of pedestal compared to its kin.

Short of an armwrestling competition (I'm in) I don't really see the issue being further resolved (although I'm as happy as anyone to beat a dead horse in case it gets up again).

This is largely a Roman Catholic belief but I've met very few mainline Protestants (excluding of course the Hate-Everything-Catholic ranters) who don't accept it.



You ignore the fact that the Prague head is an exact match for the Padua skeleton and was originally part of it.



Yet there were enough of those disciples who scattered to enough places, establishing the new Gospel wherever they went, and thus became at least regionally famous for doing so that one would expect that their own disciples would have preserved their remains, that at least a few would have survived down until our own day.

An "exact match" of the head to the skeleton is a far cry from a DNA comparison and one must ask why that wasn't done. In fact, the DNA did not really confirm that the bones were Syrian, only that they were "compatible" with a Syrian origin. The system for making that determination was somewhat faulty since it indicated that the results were "more like Syrian" than they were like Greek.

Concerning the idea that the disciples scattered to many places and continued to spread the gospels, we have only church tradition to believe that tale, nothing of historical data or evidences. Again, the church has long produced supportive tales for its icons and relics that have not always matched with historic evidences.

Greetings all!

Personally, the Biblical Artifact that I would wish to find first would be "the Spear of Destiny." And I will admit before Constantine my knowledge of this relic was more or less nonexistent. Regardless, I personally would love to be invincible. And I would travel the world learning new things and questing for various other "artifacts."

Three or four years ago I read (but, alas, I can't remember where) that the Spear of Longinus had finally been dated - the wooden handle to about 800 AD and the blade itself to around 400 AD.

My apologies. I'd erroneously assumed that the DNA analysis of the Prague skull had been carried out. Mea culpa and all of that.



I'm going to do a lot more research along this specific line. Since the general outlines of the dispersal seem to be accepted by Catholics and Protestants alike there should be considerable material available.

Which one? There are five or six of Spears of Longinus floating about. ;0)

--Jaylemurph

From what I have read, I must agree. There are a couple European countries that claim to possess a "Spear of Longinus." Of the previously mentioned "spears" there is one located at the Vatican, one in Armenia, one in Vienna, and another in Poland. All of which claim to pe the legendary "spear" but for the purposes of this thread, I would like to have the original spear if such an artifact actually existed.

I was referring to the one in Vienna which the young Adolf Hitler supposedly so lusted after. But a lot of unverifiable blather seems to have been written along that line, too.

Haha, i can imagine it now, Jesus returns after 2000 years to see we have a crucifix waiting for him. Somehow i think the Christians need a rethink

They home? It's a homing relic?

It's Basil the Rat meets Super-Jesus.

--Jaylemurph

Are you fraking serious? You know, this sounds a lot like the "Jenova Reunion" from Final Fantasy VII ... Does this mean that Jesus the "magic carpenter" is actually the "Calamity From the Sky?"

Also, this being the case, theoretically I could inject Jesus' "magick" DNA into a fetus to create the ultimate bio-weapon? Or will this be the origin of the Anti-Christ?

...this is almost as spooky as the message in my cheerios.

lmao

It's funny because it's like saying that the magician Chris Angel is the son of God because he's performed many of the same "miracles" as Jesus AND he's walked up and down a building...Then again Siddharta Buddah also performed a lot of the same miracles too--about 400 years before the "magic carpenter."

So in short I'd just like to say the following:

SUCK IT JESUS!

I believe the recent consensus about Guatama's life puts it at ~ 400 BCE.

--Jaylemurph

That one has got to be fairly obscure. I've been collecting these things like candy from childhood on and this is the very first mention I've ever heard of this particular belief.

Apologies for the error, thank you for your correction.

Let me recommend:

William Stueart McBirnie. WHAT BECAME OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES? 1963.

-----Same, greatly revised and expanded, as: THE SEARCH FOR THE TWELVE APOSTLES. 1973 and 1981.

Ive always been fascinated with the legend/rumor that The Nazi's had The Spear of Destiny ( the spear that pierced the side of Christ ). They had it apparently locked away somewhere in Berlin and it was rumored that Adolf Hitler kissed the blood stain on the spear tip. Then all of a sudden at the end of the war Woosh! it disappears.

Does anyone else know more of this legend?

all i know is the spear of destiny was the main artifact in the movie Constantine, which would be amazing to be recovered. and i also know something like, Achille's Spear too, which apparently was said to exist as well

oh and by the way Packers...

GO PACK GO!!!
i live about 30 minutes from Green Bay
and i was ticked off about pack not going to super bowl this year we all cried haha

Beautiful country you live in up there! I made my first "pilgrimage" up to Lambeau Field last year and was in just such amazement at the place. I live down in Indianapolis, and youd be surprised at how many Packer fans there are here too. Many of us were gathered at our local meeting spot called The Fox and The Hound for that final game, and yes, many of us left that night kinda teary eyed. But, Im gonna have to put my faith in Aaron Rodgers and give him the benefit. He is a good QB and he has an excellent team to back him up. So who knows... maybe, just maybe, we might make it there this year!! GO PACK GO!!

I would like to find Noahs Ark.

I am a devoted Christian but Noahs story is probally the hardest story for me to swallow within the bible.
Although, it is interesting that most religons and cultures have a record of a "Great flood".

There is no artifats for this but I would also like to find proof that "Lillith" existed.
For those who don't know, Lillith was possibly the first wife of Adam.

Is there a 3 day weekend coming up?!?! YEAH!

Like any good relic, there's at least 3 or 4 Spears of Longinus floating around -- and the Nazis never had one of them.

--Jaylemurph

Even if the Spear is genuine (which it apparently is not) I doubt that Adolf Hitler would have had much interest in kissing the blood of an executed Jew.