Today, I welcomed a new family member. A two year old female Papillon.

She's really everything I could want in a companion pet. She's smart, gorgeous, playful, obedient, and also able to be the lapdog she was bred to be, she's also fully housebroken--which is difficult to do with Papillons. I got her straight from a well respected breeder with lots of recommendations from other Papillon breeders; the breeder just decided she could not have 9 dogs.

Today I took Miss Andi (her name), out with me for lunch at a little outdoor, dog friendly restaurant, and she greeted another dog with a playful tail wag and a horse little huffy sounding, breathy bark. You see, Andi was debarked as a puppy. Or as her breeder explained "bark softened". The owner of the other dog was OUTRAGED, in fact, she was almost blind with rage that that my little Andi has obviously been debarked. I'm not easily take aback by people... but I honestly wasn't quite sure what exactly to say to her.

This little pup is SO good and well manned out in public with me, and I'm sure she's going to joyfully "huff" at people in the future. How would you handle this situation?

Just for reference, this particular breeder, and other Papillon breeders, bark soften their dogs, if only because Papillons can be yappy. Andi doesn't really seem to be a yapper though, she really only huffs if someone is at the door, or she's greeting another dog. As I undestand it, a debarked dog doesn't actually know they're debarked.

Here's a picture, I've fallen in love with her

She's really cute. It's no ones business really, my neighbour also got a dog from a breeder who was de-barked. Just tell the people the breeder had her done and then leave it at that.

I wouldn't debark a dog...because how else am I to scare away Jehova's Witnesses?

I would generally be the outraged party in this situation (just clarifying - it would be inward outrage - not directed at people in the street lol)

The only thing that softens my stance is that it may help cut down the numbers of these dogs destroyed because owners have had to give them up due to the barking. Neighbours understandably get annoyed.

So I would just explain that you got her that way, and if they really were going on - just say that it is preferential for yappy breeds otherwise they have a higher chance of ending up at the pound.

She is absolutely gorgeous!

I agree, it really is none of their business, and I tried to explain to her that the breeder had done the procedure not me. Her response was that the breeder must actually be running a puppy mill, and de-barking is how puppy mills keep their animals silent as not to alert the police. Now, I know this breeder isn't running a puppy mill; I talked to plenty of people who confirmed she is highly respected and doesn't raise dogs for money or the pet trade, but really only for showing.

I know that de-barking is an extremely sensitive subject... it just never really occurred to me that people would get SO mad about it!!

To me debarking a dog is like demaining a lion. Its not really a health hazard or anything but its kind of the animals key feature.

How are dogs debarked?

Aww! Miss Andi is darling. You're so lucky. I'd love to have a papillon.

Debarking obviously didn't harm the dog. I don't see a problem with it. I don't think I'd have it done to one of my dogs unless it was absolutely necessary. My three toy poodles only bark when people come in the house, or when they're playing.
A dog who lives behind me needs debarked, or permanently silenced. The owners leave it outside and it barks 24/7. I frankly wish it'd "accidentally" get out of its yard and in front of a truck.

Ditto? Never heard of this before!

There are a few ways dogs can be de-barked. It's actually illegal to do in some states in the USA, and I believe it's totally illegal in the UK.

A vet puts the dog under general anesthesia, and can either sever/remove the vocal cords all together, remove tissue in the vocal cords, or punch holes in them. I believe Andi has had the third procedure. She still has a little bark and a tiny bit of sound does come out. I've heard a standard collie that had their vocal cords completely severed, that procedure sounds awful; like the dog is gagging. It doesn't hurt the dog at all, it just sounds bad. Andi doesn't really sound bad, just quiet, but it's pretty clear she should be louder.

De-barking doesn't keep the dog from barking, they will always barks as much as they always did, they just sound funny and quieter. Since I've only heard Andi bark four times now, I can only assume she doesn't have a barking problem and likely never did, it's just something her breeder does to all her dogs.

I can see maybe de-barking a dog like Asphodels neighbors dog, or even my neighbors little mini schnauzer (who also barks 24/7, and is in fact, barking his fool head off right now) if it's making the neighbors batty, or is making the dog impossible to live with and every other training option has been exhausted. I lived with blue and gold macaws at one time, I'm impervious to loud animal noises, nothing could rival the ear splitting cacaphony of a B&G macaw.

I'm still nervous about taking Andi out, having her greet someone or another dog and getting SLAMMED again by some crazed dog lover. I'd likely never choose to de-bark a dog, except in the most dire circumstances, Andi probably didn't need the procedure, but it makes me a little skittish about taking this pretty princess out with me again. I likely will anyway and just deal with the jerks who should mind their own business, but man, I had no idea people could flipout so badly over this!!

Sounds an horrible procedure! But in your case, it wasn't your doing or fault. Don't feel ashamed to take your own dog for a walk! If it makes you feel better, and they hear it bark, just tell them it was born with faulty vocal cords! Sometimes a lie is easier than the truth!

One of my thoughts was just to tell people she's been trained to "whisper" ... I actually trained a cocker spaniel I had to "whisper" when she barked. That's really what Andi sounds like. Like she's whispering. But I'm not sure people will believe it. LOL. Hopefully, I've just run into the extreme when I was confronted by this woman yesterday, and it won't happen again.

This little Papillon might be the smartest, best behaved dog I've ever had. She's truly amazing. I'm surprised this breed isn't more popular. They have no known hereditary health problems (with the exception patellar luxation--bad knees, but it's a rare problem) they don't have to be professionally groomed and only shed twice a year. They're ranked the 8th most intelligent of all dog breeds. I guess the only drawbacks are that they're notoriously yappy when people come to the house (but not 24/7 yappers), and also difficult to house break; but most toy dogs are I guess. This is the first toy breed I've had. She is on the bigger side for a Pap though. 9.5 inches tall and 9lbs. She might be little, but she thinks she's a Rotty. LOL. Mostly, she just wants to play catch, go for a walk, and snooze on my lap. LOL. She's even litter box trained in the event I have to go out for more than 6 hours. How cool is that?

She's a cutie,Miss.

I personally don't care to have my cousins "de-barked"...although I know of a few Beagles and Poodles that would be good candidates for the procedure.

If anyone gets huffy with you,just tell'em that you "rescued" the pooch and that she was already that way.Let them pour their anger out at some fake "previous" owner (instead of yourself).If they still want to yell at you,just tell'em that they're good candidates for the procedure themselves.

This is a new breed of dog to me, we don't have them where I am, but she is cute as a button. It's amazing how some people say something and yet say nothing. Would this woman have felt better if you told her the dog was abused and you saved her. Yappy dogs can be a total nusance, but you did mention the debarking (which I never heard of till now),is common with the Papillion. But I do have a question. Does she or can she still whine. This is really all new to me...

Oh, you have Papillons where you are, you just may have not noticed. In fact, I hear a lot of folks mistake them for long haired chihuahua's if they're on the small side. They can be as little as 4lbs. They're believed to be the oldest non-working toy breed of dog. But, admittedly, there aren't a lot of folks that breed them today (only 5 reputable breeders in my state) and they're not a breed you see every day. They make for poor family dogs for people that have young children... they're extremely delicate boned and can be injured easily. Historically, it's believed that this is the breed of dog Marie Antoinette loved and took to the gillotine with her when she was beheaded. They're actually bred from a long extinct line of spaniels, so they have a lot of spaniel characteristics, speed, endurance, and a strong flushing and retrieving instinct. She reminds me of my beloved cockers, but she's 100 times smarter. LOL.

Andi is actually a "talker" she can still whine, and also makes this adorable little squeeking sound, she also makes this funny little ya-yaz sound like she's having a conversation with you. It's hilarious.

The most commonly de-barked dogs are toy schnauzers, shelties and standard collies. Papillons are sometimes be-barked, but not as often as the other three breeds mentioned.

Recently, and part of the reason it's banned in some states and the UK, is that bad people have been debarking pit bulls, german shepards, and rotties. Apparently this is so they can be trained to guard a drug stash, and sneak up and attack either police, or people who are a potential threat to the stash. A silent deadly dog is very dangerous. Most reputable vets will refuse to debark any of those breeds. They're guard dogs, they're trained to bark at intruders, then attack. Not just attack silently.





Personally, I think I like Wolf McCanines idea... if someone persists in bothering me about her de-barking, I'll suggest that they look into the procedure for themselves! LOL.

I totally agree with Mac here...

Mels some people are just ignorant and rude. I'm sorry you had that experience at the restaurant.

You purchased your beautiful, new Miss Andi as she is... WTH is it anyone else's business really??

I am very active in animal rescue so please just let any "maniacal" people's comments roll off your back. It is NOT okay for them to attack you like that.

YOU did not perform the surgery and some people just lack tact and social grace's.

Sorry again you had to experience that.

Miss Andi looks so adorable and sweet. She is very special to get a nice Mommy like you

Take care♥ Jody

as a dog owner and animal lover (but not fanatical) i find the thought of debarking a dog horrible,ive never heard of this,that just seems cruel...i own a french bulldog and a rottweiler and trust me i know about people being rude about dogs,people all ways look cross at me and boogieman(rottweiler) because of the bad reputation they have gotten from careless owners,,,,,,and i know how people can cross the line or act like know it alls...but debarking a dog is just a needless surgery.
there are a 100 diffrent collars that teach a dog not to bark from shock,to mist,to scent sprayers that are activated only when the dog barks,,,you dont even have to be there for the correction to take place you can train your dog and not do anything,how much easier can that be..and cheaper...most dogs bark and chew excesslivly because they are bored and arnt being showed enough attention or getting enough stimulation....you do come across some dogs that bark at everything usualy those are poorly socialized and are curiose about everything they wernt shown as a pup or scared,,,even if you are a lazy dog owner and dont really work with your dog and they are barkers speciality collars for under 200 bucks can teach your dog for you in a weeks time....

Debarking is wrong and cruel. Would you like to detalked? It wasn't you that got the procedure so it wasn't your fault. Dogs bark, cats meow and humans talk. How would any human like to be detalked? I'm assuming many would not like it. A dog should bark as it is natural. I wouldn't consider putting a collar on a dog that stopped barking either. That says I love you but I don't want you to speak. Frankly the person that did do the procedure is an ******* as you would have to be to do that. It wasn't you that did it though.

i can understand a dog that wont stop barking,,if extra attention and stimulation fails to curb their behavior i see nothing wrong with a collar that will squirt a little water,or funny smelling liquid when excess barking dosnt stop.its a training aid not a end all surgery,a dog needs to learn how to act and when certain things are allowed,,people have the missconception that they should be left for free run of the house,,not the case a dog need a alpha to tell them how to behave or they become the alpha...dogs need training not surgery,,,and some dogs need a shock collar to get the point across..

Like I said, I'd likely never de-bark a dog, I have industrial ears and a gift for blocking out loud animal noises, and I'm also pretty good with training animals in general.

From what I've read, a de-barked dog doesn't know they've been de-barked, they sense nothing wrong. If that's really the case, is it really all that cruel or is it just our perception? I mean, if we're de-talked, we can't communicate and we know it. Andi thinks she's communicating business as usual.

I made my decision to take Andi based on the assumption that she doesn't have a damaged psyche due to being de-barked. And she certainly doesn't.

I did take her out to Starbucks with me today and we shared a vanilla scone--she had a water, I had an americano LOL; A few people came to talk to her. She didn't bark at any of them. She was raised in the country until now, so she hasn't had a lot of contact with strangers, except briefly the few times she was shown at AKC shows. I'm trying to socialize her a little better with strangers, she's a tiny bit on shrinking violet side right now when it comes to strangers.

Hopefully, I just ran into one of the few jerks yesterday, and I won't experience that kind of ire again.

One dog in my neighborhood can set of a chain reaction of dogs....my 2 JTRs bark at anything....I wish I could get this done to mine, especially the younger one. His bark makes my teeth rattle....

this is just another sign of human cruelty.. and breeders not knowing a thing about they animals they have. except to make money off them.
im so glad that docking of tails has been outlawed here.. (they have never docked ears) and no vets will do a de-barking surgery.. or even declaw a cat.
i remember when i first worked as a vet nurse and we had a client come in with her pups to get the tails docked.. we made her stay in the room while it was done.. she was horrified and stopped after the first one
i guess its each to their own.. i just feel for the dog as it cant vocalise in the manner in which it should.. the voice of the dog acts as a warning device. letting us know how the dog is feeling in a situation.. (as does the tail). but im glad that you have your little bub mels.. i know its landed on a good wicket with you

Really? Tail docking is outlawed in Au? Wow! I've had three dogs with docked tails. 2 cocker spaniels, and a wire hair fox terrier. I'm not sure why they dock cockers tails, there seems to be no purpose to it except perhaps they get in the way of flushing birds maybe. Field trained cockers are always docked in the USA.

I DO know why they dock wire hair fox terriers... they're ratters and vermin hunters (and real good at it). They hunt burrowing rodents and can go into tight spaces, the handler grabs the tail to pull them out of a burrow or tight spot so they don't lose their grip on their prey. If the tail isn't docked, you could break it pulling them out of a hole.

Even through they aren't used as ratters really anymore, they do have a strong prey drive, and I'm fairly certain that my fox terriers life was saved when we pulled her out of a badger hole at my grandparents ranch. I don't think she could have taken on that badger. He was huge and MEAN.

Maybe you know this tigger.... Is ear docking the same as ear taping so their ears stand up prick style? My friend tapes her Great Danes ears when they're puppies so they stand up, but there's no surgery involved.

If only you could do this procedure to people... (there are ways, but I don't like getting my hands dirty with the paper work and court orders).

Anyways, don't let them get to you, you never decided on it, in fact, you should get praise for "rescuing" the dog.

YES! hahaha that made my day, thats the main reason I love my dog too!

ear docking is where a section of ear is cut off so it sticks up all perky like.. so in a sense yes it is like taping mels

there is no reason other than aesthetics to chop off a dogs tail.. we've had to remove dogs tails surgically that are older and have harmed them.. but we dont take the whole lot off.. just a few inches..

pretty horrible to hear that the handlers hang onto the dogs tail.. i mean the tail is essentially an extension of the spine.. im not too sure id like someone yanking on my spine.

Our poodles are a father, and two of his pups (7 this year). The pups were born in our home, but the father was received from a family "friend" who is a very irresponsible breeder. I can't stand the woman for so many reasons. I don't want to get too off topic, though. Anyway, Valentina, Louis, and the rest of the litter had their tails docked dewclaws removed soon after birth. They weren't docked too short. I don't really have a problem with it. It was quick and clean. I don't like ear cropping, though. It seems so painful, for so long. I could never have that done to a dog. I'd also never declaw a cat under any circumstances. It drives me nuts when people declaw cats. There are healthy, pain and mutilation free solutions now. It's just uncalled for.

Fox terriers who are ratters were bred to have people hang on to their tails... it's been done for hundreds of years. It actually doesn't even bother them or harm them. There is a reason they're docked, it's not just for looks. it's part of what that breed was designed for. You can pull a wire hair fox terriers tail and he won't even flinch, turn to look at you or anything. They're blissfully unaware of their backsides naturally.

I've watched puppies tails being docked, it never bothered me. Just a little snip, a band-aid, a quick look at you that suggests "hey man! that sucked!" and a couple of days later they're healed. Tail docking a puppy doesn't even require anesthesia. It looks WAY less painful than circumcising a human boy in my opinion. And less traumatic than piercing a baby girls ears.

Now, docking an adult or adolecent dogs tail might be more problematic. At that point, their bones are more set and fused. I could see that being a mess and traumatizing.

I don't think I agree with clipping a dogs ears to make them stand up since prick ears can be acheived without making any cuts on the dog at all. Just religious taping when they're puppies will do the job. My friend has an adult rescue Dane right now with "ear confusion" her ears point to the left all the time. It's absolutely charming. My friend won't tape an adult dogs ears, so she'll stay comical looking. LOL.

Miss Andi has HUGE prick ears (like satelite dishes! LOL) but that's natural for her breed, they're born that way. There's another kind of Papillon that has flop ears, but they're called Phalene's. In the USA, Papillon's and Phalene's are considered the same breed. In AU and Europe they're considered two different breeds.

Ours got a quick snip, and then the tips were cauterized.
I agree that with an adult dog it would be very traumatizing and likely risky. I'm sure an adult would need the anesthesia, and the mature bones would be difficult to manage. I can't imagine the pain.



I absolutely love papillon ears. I think they add to their already abundant personality.

I'm more of a big dog person, I own a rough collie and realllllly want an irish wolfhound (parents say no), and with the bigger dog comes a bigger bark, but I still couldn't debark him, seems a little stupid to me. Same with docking tails, I love coming home to see my dog's tail (and most of his back end for that matter) wagging back and forth, makes me feel loved. And of course he scares of trick or treaters, jehovas witnesses, other uninvited religious visitors and double glazing salesmen with his wonderful bark so debarking would also cost me money to get a gun to scare the aforementioned people away.

Don't worry about your dog loosing his bark, my dogs found it and he's barking for them both but i have a plan get mallet out of shed (anaesthetic) Swiss army knife out of draw (scalpel) i'll be about half hour.

If they're anything like my JRTs i'd have their teeth removed while your at it.

Well done for taking on an older dog - you're not to blame for the de-barking and you should tell people so if they make comments. She's very cute.

De-barking is horrific, the equivalent of taking away our ability to talk. If you don't want a barking dog in your house, then don't get a dog. Also, why out your animal through an unecessary medical procedure and all the risks that go along with it? Taping a dog's ears up is a non-surgical way of encouraging them to stand, cropping them to make them stand up can create problems with the ear which may cause problems for the dog later in life.

Bark softened! Bark B****y softened! - what a poetic way to describe animal mutilation carried out to suit the purpose of humans, sounds so much nicer than 'we had her vocal cords severed because she is too noisy!' doesn't it?

Hello! - she is a dog. Dogs bark. If you don't want a Dog to bark then have it trained professionally, no second thoughts have the owner trained to control the Dog properly thats the RIGHT thing to do, to show respect for the animal!

I wonder if the breeders would be prepared to undergo such an operation if its so innocuous and desirable

Sorry 'responsible dog owner for over forty years - type' rant over, I understand you bought her 'as is', my beef is with the breeders who sell this cruel idea to owners, not someone who gives a dog a loving home. I wish you both well and hope you and your cute new friend have a long and happy relationship together.

I don't like dogs, I know I'm a freak. Your dog looks cute though.

I'd never heard of this practice until this thread, it seems barbaric. I'd also never heard of the other surgeries dogs can have, what's going on, it's like plastic surgery for pets.

Well, I think if you explain to them that it was done before you got the dog, that should make things easier, We got a cat from the pound that had been declawed, which upsets some people to no end...I explain that she had been declawed before we got her; that we didnt do it. If they persist in being uptight I generally act remorseful and say "yeah, you are right...I should have just left the cat in the pound to be put to sleep, it must be such a horrible existence for her here. A lap 24 hours a day, free food, a warm loving home, the best medical care...I cant believe I was so insensitive as to think I should save her from a cramped 1 foot cube and an upcoming injection." and roll my eyes.

Some people get too uptight about things they dont know about when it comes to animals, as if they can throw on a cape and somehow save the day by chastising you for something they think you took part in.

I have to say buying from breeders who do this lines their pockets and perpetuates this.

I don't see a problem with it at all. It's just something done to make the dog more desirable for a given... I hate to say "use", but that's what it is. Some dogs are used for hunting, some are used for protection, this one is used for companionship, and debarking makes it more suitable for that. If this were a selectively bred trait, would people still have a problem with it? Maybe some would, I don't know. How about other breeds which are disposed to health problems because of the traits bred into them? I don't see debarking as any different than the modifications already done to the dog to make it much smaller and more docile than it should be. It's not any more harmful to the dog than any of those, perhaps less so.

I understand the "back to nature" mindset, but as far as dogs go it's a little late for that now. I don't think one can rationally be angry about this modification and none of the others.

First off your dog is VERY adorable ! debarking looks/sounds worse than it is. Just as declawing a cat.

Plenty of people have 'tried' to shame me once finding I had gotten my cat , now 8, frontal declawed at 6 months when I had her fixed. Yet plenty of those same people are upset the cats they have gotten since have shredded their furniture. Some cats can have a million scratching posts yet still go for your couch, walls , carpet. They say it hurts the cats , yet mine was pouncing after the dog the next day.

. Some dogs will bark no matter how much training. If debarking keeps you sane and your neighbors sane then a doggy sore throat for a few days isn't much to ask . Better than the dog being given up over and over again not making permant roots and there by harming it psycholocially.

I was lucky , my small dog isn't a yapper at all . unless you leave her alone !!

Well thanks all.. this is a mighty touchy subject! I can see that right now!

I have an Update.

Yesterday, my curiousity finally got the better of me and I e-mailed the breeder to find out specifically why she de-barks all her dogs. The answer was actually perfectly understandable and I agree that she had to do what she had to do.

Basically, any puppies she has that she's not going to keep do not have this surgery. They are never de-barked.

She de-barks the puppies who are going to stay with her... for a very good reason. She has a 4 year old grandson who is severely autistic and the sound of their shrill barks TERRIFIES him to the point where he can't visit her. It was either give up her dogs, or give up having her grandson out to visit her on her ranch. She made the in-between choice.

I'm glad I asked her, I feel SO much better now. I just KNEW she wasnt' a horrible person. A horrible breeder and person just could not have raised the well mannered loving dog that Andi is today.

And just for reference, since someone mentioned it... Her vocal cords were not severed or removed. They have small holes in them. She still makes some noise, but it's MUCH quieter than her normal bark would be. The breeder said that it's quite possible that as Andi gets older, her bark could come back in nearly full strength if the small holes close back up, something like the way pierced ears close. Because she's not a barker by her very nature, it's actually more likely that she will regain her bark at some point.

It doesn't matter to me if she barks .. in 4 days, I've heard her yap maybe 10 times, if that. She's not a barker.

And Belle, you're totally right. I think that's what has been bothering me most. I don't want to perpetuate a bad habit, making it somehow acceptible. It was freaking me out a bit, I admit it. I was afraid I'd done something to somehow say this was an ok thing to do.

Read above, I've finally found out why she did it... it had nothing to do with just wanting quiet dogs. My concerns have been addressed and I'm actually OK with her reason. She had three choices, she chose the option that I would likely have chosen given the circumstances.





And, the breeder, while she's not fond of de-barking except as a last resort or highly unusual circumstances like her own, says that Andi Spay surgery was WAY more difficult on her than the de-barking. The bark softening healed in just about 36 hours. It's been 13 days since her spay surgery and she's still somewhat sore.

Really, the little schnauzer across the street from me barks 24/7 and he's LOUD. He also riles up the bull terrier next door (Andi seems to be ignoring both of them--Good girl!! LOL). The neighbors are forever shouting out their windows "SHUT UP Baily!" at the schnauzer. He's truly obnoxious. It was so bad last summer, the neighborhood basically forced them to send Baily away to his grandma and grandpa's house. He came back about 5 days ago though. LOL. The neighborhood somehow collectively "wilted" LOL. He doesn't bother me, I can tune him out, but I know others are furious. I'd never suggest to them that they bark soften him, but I'm actually afraid someone is going to hurt him if it can't be brought under control. And I know his owners have really really tried.

I would NEVER debark a dog. I have had "yappers" to "take anything in the house ya want dude I aint sayin nothin" I find it very cruel its not right. Dogs bark. Good steady training will pay off it takes time like raising children you got to keep at them. She is a cutie. But really this is so wrong in PA you can not do this.

That's true ASOP, it is illegal in many states and some countries too.

After doing a whole bunch of research in the last several days, and reading both pro's and con's of the procedure, I've come to the conclusion, that the folks that believe in using the procedure for the very most extreme situtations after all other options have been exhausted, may have the right of it. Until now, I had no opinion on the procedure, and after doing the research, I have a better idea of what is ok and what isn't.

The reality is that people on both sides of the argument believe that the dog has no idea its been de-barked. If the dog doesn't know it's de-barked, and it doesn't stop it from communicating (they do make some sound), how is that cruel? I also read that part of the reason it's been banned in several states is because people were erroneously debarking guard dogs (German Shepards, Pit Bulls, Mastiff's etc...) so they could attack silently without alterting an intruder, and just attack. Guard dogs are bred to bark first, attack second. Another reason was because of botched de-bark jobs by vets unqualified to do the procedure. Doing a poor job on the procedure can lead to heavy scaring and worse.

I was also amazed how many dogs have been poisoned by neighbors just to stop the dog from barking. It's quite sad. It's mostly been breeds that bark for the joy of barking, like shelties (who are bred TO bark) and other herding dogs that bark a lot for both fun and work. I mean, what's worse, constantly yelling at a dog that barks a lot and training him to NOT do something he naturally does, OR do a relatively safe procedure that makes everyone happy. Many sheltie breeders say a debarked sheltie is actually MUCH happier than one that's been badgered and shocked half to death through aggressive traning. Some dogs bark for the joy of barking, if debarking doesn't remove that joy, and in fact, allows them to still bark, why wouldn't you do it?

I'm kinda just throwing the idea out there. I'd never have a sheltie (too furry. lol) or debark a dog. But I see what the owners of debarked dogs are saying. I see their point of view.

I have to say, my son is severely autistic and extremely sound sensitive, when she says it terrifies him, he would be scared out of his whits.

My son has a problem with all noise and has some ear protectors to help, but even that wouldn't help in this situation because the source of the noise would still be there, the dogs. My son is terrified by babies crying and screaming, it gets to the point where taking him out of the controlled environment of the house is nerve wracking, cause if he throws a fit, we're in trouble.

Her intentions were in the right place here and I'd bet she didn't do it lightly.

Hope you and Andi are very happy together

Yes in PA they banned it because drug dealers,gangs were doing this to their dogs so the police would not know there were attack dogs in homes that were being raided and for the fact thats its cruel and does cause problems in some dogs later down the line(infection). I understand that you did not do this and im glade your both happy. You dont have to explain to anyone what has been done if asked just say thats just her/his bark and leave it at that. The breeder should be reported I would think that a vet would have to do this procedure/surgery not a breeder. A dog has a bark for a reason just like humans have a voice they warn us of something and also people are alerted that .......Oh sh!* A dog "hears barking". Best of luck to you both animals are the BEST!

Right, unfortunately, the drug dealers and gangs don't/didn't take their animals to qualified vets to be debarked, they really never did. They do the procedure themselves, without anesthesia, and without vetinarian training. This IS barbaric and cruel. So, the PA law really only hurts people with a legitimate reason to have the procedure done doesn't it? I mean, in general, attack style dogs aren't known to be habitual fun and joy barkers, the overwhelming majority of vets would never debark a pit, rotty, german shepard etc... They'd risk losing their license if they made a habit of it right?

The PA law didn't solve the problem, those dogs weren't being taken to vets in the first place.

No there was a vet who did some of the surgery's and was paid alot of money to do this he had complaints in the past for other reasons but when all this hit the fan about the raids and the silent dogs and the nark who had informed them of the no bark dogs the police were told by one of the owners after arrests who had did the surgery. Yes he did loose his licence

Correct, and he lost his license...

Yup sure did in PA only if I remember right. Hope this creep is no were else doing this. How can a breeder do this procedure?

The breeder of my dog had a vet do it with a laser. It's legal in my state, although here in my state it would be pretty hard to find a vet that would do the operation without a VERY compelling reason and knowing the dogs history, temperment and homelife. You couldn't take a dog into a random vet and expect them to do it, they won't. Some vets simply won't do it because they don't want the headache of tracking the dogs training progress and homelife situation. The vet my breeder uses has been caring for her 8 dogs (and litters of puppies) for many years, he knows her very well and knew that she was going to have to give up her dogs in lieu of a grandson that visits a few times a month. She and the vet decided this was the only reasonable answer for her to keep the animals she loves, and the grandson she loves.