I would like to congratulate everyone on continuing to post , you have 14]proven my point by continuing to go round and round the political bush ( no referance to dubbawya intended ) You are all insane , Im insane , the world is insane and the media is insane .


InSaNe!!!


On a more serious note , none of you really know what the isrealites and palestines are going through ... only speculation based on whatever media gets to you first ... did I say the media is insane ?

I would have to say the Isrealites and palestines are basically equal at fault . The constant suicide bombings may be pushed , but still a psychotic act . The fact isrealites have ran kids over with tanks is messed up as well .

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but Jocs post made me curious.

Why did we attack a country if they were not an imminate threat and had no direct ties to 9/11.
Since that time the number of suicide bombing have increased worldwide.
Neither Joc, nor Bush nor Blair nor anyone else I can think of, has given a reasonable reason why we needed to attack Iraq.

Someone else posted that the jewish people owned/controlled a good deal of the media in the U.S. Since the person who posted this comment refused to state where he got his information I will supply you with a link that you can check yourself. Media ownership I ask that if your going to make statements like this please back them up with facts or information that can be researched. Thank you

The mods should really think of closing this thread, its degenerated from opinions on the conflict to 'your a racist' 'no I;m not' 'Yes you are' and 'Your wrong' 'no I'm not'

Basically we lost any form of coherant argument a long time ago and is simply the same stuff again and again which is simply causing some of the peeps here to get worked up

If we continue like this its just going to get nasty

Sorry, Talon. But the sad truth is Palestine never existed. Deny it if you want to but the truth is that Palestine was never a country and Israel is not occupying any Palestinian territory. Change history if you like just to support your view.

In fact, didn't Jordan once expelled a whole bunch of Palestinian out of its borders?


If Palestine did exist, then answer a few of these questions:

Who found Palestine?
When was Palestine found and who named it?
What was its currency?
What was its governmental body?
Prior to Yassir Afrafat, who was the leader of Palestine?


In the end, it is all anti-semitism. For some reason we are tolerating this biogtry and racism in the MIddle East that we will not tolerate elsewhere because we are lead to believe that these people are being "oppressed". How about stop blowing yourselves and innocent people up? Watch how much life would improve. It is easy when you try. At least the Israelis can be talked and reasoned with.

just an off topic thought here... why do people call for a thread to be closed? if you think the thread is no longer worth discussion, just move along yourself. threads should only be closed when they are doing more harm than good. i get irritated by closed threads because that means that one or two people have ruined what could've been a good discussion. this discussion is surprisingly civil for the issues involved and i enjoy reading everyone's different points of view.

i can guarantee you the mods are watching this thread and they also come in and edit out anything out of bounds. isnt that good enough? i say leave the moderating to the moderators and stop attempting to sabotage a debate because you decide its not worth discussing further.


KayEl:

i think the point you are missing is that a nation and a country are two different things. a nation of people is a group that has an identity and common shared values. a country may or may not be a nation. you could have a country that one nation considers their's and another nation considers their's too. the Israelis are a nation and they control most of the land that is the country of Israel. the Palestinians are a nation too, but they have no country to dwell in, rather they dwell in your country. some nations can peacefully coexist in one country together, some cannot. Israelis and Palestinians have such different values that they must have two separate countries to exist. Palestinians will never be integrated into your society because you have differing values and cannot share one identity. it doesn't matter if Palestine exists on a map or not, it exists nonetheless in the mind of its people. look at a map of Europe and ponder why their are so many small countries in such a small area... because they all had national destinies that had to be defined. that is why it is so difficult for the EU to come together; whereas in the USA, we had many states but one nation so it was more natural for us. if there is to be peace in Israel, there must be a Palestine made from its territory. you can try to subdue a nation but it usually fails unless there is constant brutality to keep the status quo. Iraq would be a good example of this as now it is fragmenting into its various nations with Saddam's brutal regime out of power. if the new Iraq cannot unite its people, it will turn into separate countries.

whether a Palestine will include only Israeli territory or also territory from other Arab nations is something that will be defined after it is created. if there are true Palestinians in Arab countries too, they will begin to exert pressure to join with the Palestine created out of part of Israel. it may even eventually cause a war if it cannot be accomplished peacefully. right now, the Arab world is united against Israel because it is repressing the Palestinians. if Israel gave up land to create a Palestine, you may see the day that they are allied with you against an Arab country that is repressing their people. wouldnt that be ironic?

Bizzaro..............








.............Dude!!....you rock

Wow, Bizarro.

Joc

Do u have the ability to forgive an auwful deed committed against your country?

Yeah bizarro you made an very good couple of points.

We just have to look at the break up of yugoslavia to see what happens when nations are repressed.

Yugoslavia is a perfect example. The only reason croatia an bosnia are independant is because that situation occured in europe had the palestinian issue occurred in europe were power especially millitary power is more evenly balanced throughout many nations the this would probably have been resolved long ago.

Interesting.

Once again, the argument of "repression".
Israel never strikes out until they were struck first.
Want to stop the "repression"? Well, start living like normal human beings and stop strapping bombs to yourself and blowing you and other people up.

Every time Israel was willing to negotiate and talk and guess what happens?
Another bombing. Let us stop pretending and realize the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel.

The Israelis do not mind having Palestinians living in their lands as long as they behave themselves. The Israeli were wiling to live with their Arabic neighors. But the Palestinian wouldn't want Jews living in "their" territories. In that case, the Palestinians are no better than Apartheid in South Africa. Except of course, they are not "white", so we have to tolerate their bigotry and their backward thinking and values. Imagine if a European nation said they cannot accept certain people from other countries because they have different values. Oh, will there will boycotts and demonstrations! Sorry, racism is racism. The Palestinians will have to realize that the Jews are here to stay and there are other people in the world with different beliefs and values than they do and they should respect them as well.

Israel is perfectly content to have Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel as long as they don't pose a threat to them and their fellow human beings. Can we say the same for the Palestinians and their Arab supporters?

I have to admit from my posts i have come accross as anti-israel.

Dont get me wrong kayel whilst i beleive your army are far too hard on the palestinians i do have sympathy for the israelis too.

I mean the israelis have created a striong and rich country there. I also believe there are more arab country's out there than i care to think about that hate everything my way of life stands for an would love nothing better than our destruction.

Thing is though we all live on this planet and we need to find a way forward. War and repression is not the way forward.

Joc is of the opinion that everyone in the middle east is past the point of no-return. Well joc thats what america thought of europe at the outbreak of ww2 NO LOOK AT US!!!.

You cant just right off a part of the planet. Thats why i still believe that behind closed doors your "nuke the middle east" philosophy is probably not only aired in jest.

q.Kayel if the israelis are so open to peace, then why was the most sucessful leader of your country assisinated by an israeli?(successful in the sense of the peace programme)

A. For having showing to many concessions towards the palestinians.

I think a lot more people in israel were happy at that than you would like to admit.

The problem is isaelis dont seem willing to admit they have any blame in this situation at all.

WTF does the book of revelation have to do with this anyway lol.

Joc check the snappy and irrelevant responses section.

Itll be like reading a trip down your unexplained mysteries memory lane lol

I hate to be the one to say this...but I think that the hatred runs so deep on both sides of the fence that no amount of talking is going to solve the issue.

From the links I have seen here, as well as the reading that I have done on my own I think it is going to come down to a full blown war(again) with each side trying to wipe out the other(final solution thinking).

I really don't see how anyone is going to get either side to give in. Everytime there is a Palastinian bombing, there is an Israeli attack. Everytime there is an Israeli attack, there is a Palastinian bombing...Lather, Rinse, repeat ad infinitum.

I don't think either side is going to be willing to come to the table and be willing to give an concession. It sounds like it is political suicide(as well as signing your own death warrant) if you are a leader of either side and are willing to give in, in order to have peace.

No matter who you are talking to, it is always the other guys fault, completely. That mentality would have to change to get anywhere, and I just don't see that happening. Ever.

With thinking like that from the common citizen to the top of the political ranks, there is no way we are going to get anywhere without war. And lots of it.

I just wish we could somehow isolate the parties involved and let them have at it. Unfortunately that would kill so many innocent people on both sides, it would be horrible...

Having seen a glimpse of war, I am always one to see it as a last resort. I can't see anything other than all out war happening here. I hate to say that, but nothing has changed in the past 50 years, and it only seems to be getting worse as we go on.

LOL just because i dont think you need to go back to the beginning of time doesnt mean i dont know the history of the are.

What has the name Israel got to with it the country was founded in the 40's .

They werent going to call it palestine were they?

The bible ist a historical chronicle.

You clearly have no idea how israel was founded ata lla do you?

You have no grasp on any historical event at all and you should keep out of it.

You dont understand the history of WW2, you obviously havnt a clue what i was saying about the break up of yugoslavia, you cannot grasp world politics and your answer to the solution in the middle east was "nuke em".

You in fact seem to post without actually knowing any facts about anything except biblical eventss and meaningless parables.

By the way the hatred between the Irish republicans was centuries old.

Thank god we didnt give up as easily as all u seem to want to.

That hatred was about religion, ideology, repression and pride. All of the same problems in palestine.

Is it gettin worse? NO its gettin better.

Wonder Why?

Communication is helping bring all that hatred to an end.

I'll be the bad guy:

I think this thread has officially had it. Now new points are being made and unfortunately the topic tends to bring out the worst in some people.

The one or two members that still have valid points to make are requested to use the PM function on this board or continue through email.

Thank you for your kind understanding.