Also Dowdy I couldn't help but notice your site opens with the line:

" Those Who Bless Her (Israel) Will Be Blessed, And Those Who Curse Her Will Be Cursed "

Yes, very neutral


P.S. Thanks Still, you know me so well

I liked this particular gem of impartiality:

Firstly, as I stated before, I DO NOT support the terrorist actions of the Palestinians; however, I DO condemn the actions of the Israeli Government and the tragic waste of life on both sites.

As for the Website that Dowdy encouraged us to visit and learn? Here is one choice morsel, enjoy:

The truth is much more complicated than any of you thinks.
First of all, you must remember that Israel is a Democracy. It stayed that way since it's birth, no matter how bad the situation was. Israel accpeted Jews from many countries, no matter what race they were (white, black, asian etc.). Israel also gave full citizenship to it's Arab population. Israel is the only place in the Middle-East where Arabs get to vote in free elections, where people are not vanishing from the streets. Israel's Arab population is composed of Palestinians that chose to stay in Israel and didn't listen to the Arab countries back in '48.
As for the refugee camps - they were built by the Arab countries in 1948 when they invaded Israel and captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Palestinians that went to Syria and Lebanon were put in the same camps as well. Israel actually offered money to the PA back in the '90 to dismantle the camps and relocate the refugees in the PA's territries. The PA used that money to arm itself instead of helping the population. They also used that money to spread more poision propaganda to the Palestinian people.
Israel offered 97% of the disputed territories to Arafat, and even agreed to split Jerusalem. Arafat refused, and started his Intifada.
As for Palestinian state - there was never such a state and the Palestinian identity is a late 20th century creation. The League of Nations promised the Jews all of Palestine, that is Israel and Jordan, back in the '20. Britain split that territory and gave more than 70% to Palestine's Arabic population, under the rule of the Hashmite dynasty. The Zionist Jews agreed. Then, from the begining of the '20, untill 1936, the Arabs rebelled against the British and murdered Jews. They expelled Jews from communities that they lived in for centuries (like Hebron, around Jenin, Tzfat, Jaffa, Gaza, Nabulus etc.). The British than published the "White Books", which restricted the Jews and gave the Arabs more freedom, in exchange for Arabs not murdering Jews. Then after the Great Arab rebelion of Palestine in 1936, the British agreed to split Palestine again - to a Jewish state and an Arab state. There were numerous plans through the '30 and '40, untill the famous UN plan came along. The Jews agreed to that plan. The Arabs didn't. They started murdering Jews again, while their leader, Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini called the Arabs to "Kill all the Jews!". In the same time the Arab states expelled all their Jewish populations, communities that were 2,500 years old were dismantled.
After the War of 1948, the Arabs again used terrorists called Fedayeen through the '50. The Palestinians didn't ask for any independance from their Arab occupators. The PLO was founded in 1964, three years before The Six Days War.
So you see - those lands where never Palestinian lands. They were Ottoman lands, than British lands. Only in 1948 the Palestinian Arabs were given the oppotunity to get lands and a state of their own. They didn't want such any of these. They refused to accept the possibility of a Jewish state in Palestine. Palestine itself is the name the Romans gave to Eretz Israel/Canaan.
As for genocide - I don't know how you can believe the lies of totalitarian countries that murder and oppress their own citizens, and think that a western Democracy, which it's own people experience genocide, could commit such an acts. Most of what the Palestinians are telling to the rest of the world turns out to be lies. Ofcourse, their situation isn't good. They are being used by the Arab states and their own leadership as a weapon against Israel. Their government uses donations money to train terrorists and buy weapons, and spreading hate through the population. Arafat's police acts like the Gestappo - people are disapearing from the streets, hanged upside down, and stoned.
But Israel is acting in the most gentle way it can, under the risk of terrorism.
As for the pictures of Palestinians throwing stones on Israeli Tanks - if you knew anything about Tanks, you would know that if Israel's real intentions was to massacre the Palestinians, that boy with stones would never come near that Tank. He would have been shot long before he could get that close. The truth is that Israeli Tanks are expose to stones, Molotov bottles, pee, beer bottles etc. They are given strict orders to not fire anyone untill they are fired at with firearms.
As for Palestinians only using stones - that is just nonsence. Palestinians have Kasaam rockets, RPG missiles, AK, M16, boats, explosives etc. All are bought by the PA from EU and UN money.

This is a tough one I agree and for you living in the middle of this madness it must be a nightmare.

I have often tried to imagine how frightening it must be to sit on a bus and wonder if the guy sitting a few rows down is wrapped in explosives and have to do this day in day out.

You probably think that all of the people who are posting on this topic hate Israel; I don't and I don't think that the others do either, but we have seen the horror that effects both sides; we have seen the cafes blown to pieces and the destroyed busses, but we have also seen the dead Palestinian kids and the bulldozed homes.

What is the solution? Do you think that the current policy of your Government will work? Wasn't one of your Prime Ministers killed for being "Soft" on the Pallestinians?

I am not taking sides, I am saying that this madness needs to be approched in a different way.

And just a note - the site that Dowdy gave link to does not represent what most of Israelis think. The site he gave represent a Cahanist ideology. Cahana's group is considered a terrorist organization here in Israel. They were behind Izhak Rabin's assasination. The Israeli intelligence agancies have a special section for dealing with those people. They are a small minority of some hundred people or so. Most of them are behind bars, but some still out there spreading their ideology.

Please note that Islam is not equal to Arabs. The Turks, North Africans, Persians, Indians, and South East Asians are not Arabs.

i gotta agree with Seraphina here. the logic of your argument is so lacking that you can't see the forest for the trees. when you defend the murder of a child with a line like, "the man was a terrorist who was sheltering behind his son" (paraphrasing) than maybe it is you who needs to stop listening to propaganda.

also, when you criticize the nazi comparisons, maybe you should look at the tactics involved before you claim they are unjustified:

a Nazi tactic in WWII was to kill a whole group of people for the acts of one resistance fighter. for example, this is from France:

Possibly the most moving sight of all is the martyred village of Oradour-sur-Glane, in central France. This town, 15 miles northwest of Limoges, was machine-gunned and burned in 1944 by Nazi SS troops. Seeking revenge for the killing of one of their officers, they left 642 townspeople dead in a blackened crust of a town under a silent blanket of ashes. The poignant ruins of Oradour-sur-Glane—scorched sewing machines, pots, pans, bikes, and cars—have been preserved as an eternal reminder of the reality of war. When you visit, you'll see the simple sign that greets every pilgrim who enters: Souviens-toi...remember.


sounds kind of like Jenin, eh? if you believe its total rubbish, where do all these pictures come from? where do all the unbiased reports of brutality come from? why do things like this happen? i would say that is a pretty unbiased report of what is actually going on. houses are being destroyed everyday, not just for the reasons you lay down as fact.

Here's my Map!

(This thread needed a little lightening up!)

hey! thats one of George W's maps

Ive kinda kept outta this thread apart from my earlier post but..

Nxt2hvn

Its a subject that can't be lightened up and there is no humour in it.

BTW to erkl whom accused talon of sitting far away in scotland and not knowing basicall what it was like.

In actual fact coming from the UK, we like that part of the world have had very very similar problems in Northern Ireland.

The irish republicans were just as determined and ruthless. We understand this type of terrorism as well as we have also had to grow up with it.

It has been shown here brute force just doesnt work dialogue however is far more effective. Make a martyr of one suicide bomber you create a hundred more even more determined bombers. Short of wiping out the palestininians WHICH WOULD BE GENOCIDE this type of action doesnt work.

Concessions have to be made on both sides and if Rabbin hadnt been assisinated maybe there would have been a lasting

JOC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You again have shown your uttert lack of knowledge on a subject like this. All terrorism doesnt stem from Bin Laden and 9/11.

How can I get this through to you?

The problems in palestine are detached from 9/11, have nothing to do with Bin LAden. Hamas before 9/11 were not allies and had no contact with Al quaeda.

Do you even understand the situation over there?

Why do you post on subjects you dont understand?

I know where your coming from but too many people in the west dont the take palestine issue serious especially in america, i mean israel have broken so many UN regulations it actually makes a mockery of our justifications for war in Iraq but im willin to bet 90% of people in the west didnt even know Israel are breaking UN regulations at all.

Yeah but the reasons they came out and cheered are what you need to look at.

They see america as just as guilty as israel for their opression.

9/11 for them was a victory against the U.S. thats why they cheered, they are fed a lot of propganda too you know.

They prbably dont understand the full evilness of laden.

Yes, propaganda, lies and more lies. You cannot really trust anybody these days.

I trust the UN to tell the truth when they tell us of the amount of regulations the israelis are breaking.

Apparently you're not following this topic close enough. It was a joke

Bizzaro:

Sorry, I'm afraid I'm going to have to abandon you to a victim of the propoganda fed to you by your government...everywhere I look in your arguement I hear "palistinian lies!" "palistinian lies!" "Palistinians killed this person, Palistinians kill that person!"

You really do hate them, don't you?

Erikl, you make everyone who disagrees with you into an anti-Semite - talk about a convienient little philosophy. i see it utilized on talk radio (which just so happens to be owned by corporations which are also owned by Jewish people, at least in the USA) to stiffle anyone who questions Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories. whenever a caller is sympathetic to the Palestinians, they are transformed into an ANTI-SEMITE by the host and kicked off the air. i have witnessed this on many occasions. in contrast, these right wing talk show hosts are often given free trips to Israel and report about the horrible conditions there under the threat of Palestinian terrorism. hmm.

just some food for thought:

America's Voices in Israel

now, you will notice that all of those persons listed are CONSERVATIVE talk show hosts who are 'guests' of the nation of Israel. you will also notice that the topics they discuss ON AMERICAN RADIO are nothing short of propaganda being funneled directly from the state of Israel. when Saudi Arabia tried to purchase ads on TV in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the media reported that 'common Americans were furious' and the then labeled them as propaganda, yet this sort of blatant propaganda goes unreported. double hmm.

i am not an anti-Semite. i am seeker of truth. when someone does not report something on the news, i wonder why. when someone does report something on the news, i try to find other sources to get a more well rounded picture of what really happened.

when i see that people who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause are being shut out of discussions in our media, it leads me to believe there exists definite evidence of manipulation. in a free media, surely we could have views that differ from what the state of Israel is feeding us, but all i see is people with differing views being labeled anti-Semites and stiffled on that account.

even locally, in Birmingham, Alabama- surely not a hotbed of Israeli/Palestinian issues- i see direct intervention by the state of Israel. we had a congressman by the name of Earl Hilliard who was sympathetic to Arab issues. he went to visit Libya once and it was widely reported on the national media like he was some kind of traitor or something. interestingly enough, Jewish contributions from sources far outside of Alabama were directly implicated in him losing the local election to a candidate who was 'more sympathetic to Jewish issues'. he was portrayed as an anti-Semite for supporting Arab issues. triple hmm.

read this

finally, i find it ironic that people of Israel would deny the nation of Palestinians their national destiny, especially considering that Israel itself was a displaced nation for centuries. a 'nation' of people is not necessarily a country. the Palestinians are a nation, albeit without a country to inhabit. that is exactly what Israelis were 60 years ago. ironic that Israelis are now in the position of denying a displaced nation the right to exist because they displaced them to create their own country.

share the land. its the right thing to do. you know that too, im certain of it.

As for the UN issue, look here.

As for Seraphina:

BTW - to all, I won't be able to respond as often as I did for the past two days, so in case you wonder - no, I didn't fly

First, the pre-modern history isn’t relevant to current events, it would be like me using WW2 as a defence to invade modern Germany.

i could send you to many 'conspiracy' type pages (which i do not ascribe to their beliefs but they are enlightening) but i will just let you look for yourself at how control of the mass media in the US rests in the hands of very few people. a large percentage of them happen to be Jewish, coincidentally. conspiracy? maybe, maybe not. if you want a conspiracy, you could find one, but im not into conspiracies. i only notice when a caller with a Palestinian sympathy reveals him or herself on the radio station i listen to often (owned by Clear Channel Communications) that their opinion is always stiffled by a wide variety of hosts. i also notice that the conservative talk show hosts of Clear Channel Communications owned stations are nationally syndicated and also all get free trips to Israel to spew biased propaganda here in my community. where is the Palestinian side of things being presented? its not. anyone expressing an opinion contrary to their propaganda gets booted off the air. that is why i notice. its simply a personal observation.

if you doubt that i am correct, i advise you to check that link i posted earlier about the American Voices in Israel BULL CRAP.

also, this is non biased and factual information. do you own nitpicking research like i do if you have time on your hands.

Who Owns What

In the words Joc;
**can opened, worms everywhere.**


Palestine belongs to Palestinians, Israel is infringing on their lands. As for 97% Arafat refused, all I can say, Well how benevolent of the Israeli government!**chalk full of sarcasm**, it’s very kind of Israel to offer them back 97% of the land was stolen from Palestinians in the first place. We should all applaud Israel for making for giving Palestinians citizenship of a country that they stole from them in the first place, and giving them a right to vote. Israel should be given awards for being as kind as to killing innocent children by blowing up theirs the homes while they are a sound asleep. Target practice on its Palestinian citizens from aircrafts, roll tanks over the homes, sizing their lands, segregating them by building a wall, and shooting at them at from towers and keeping them away their own capital, etc. Way to go, good job!

Blowing up oneself is a very horrible way to make a point; however, it appears that these people think, that is the way Israel will look at them. I do not condone suicide bombers, killing innocent people is wrong.

Hamas has found bunch unhappy people who wonder why they and children should be shot up on for the mistakes of someone else. How long do you think it is going to take before they start to sympathize with Hamas, How long do you think it is going to take when civilians start to letting their children be recruited into Hamas?

No one is innocent in this conflict; Arafat does a bad job, but so to does Israel.

Just because someone attacks israels policy on palestin doesnt mean they are attacking jews.

You are wearing rose coloured specs my friend we are all very open minded and looking at the sitiation fresh minded and evenly balanced.

You must admit that the israelis are far mor powerful than the palestinians?

then you would have to admit that if you believed your country was being oppressed you would do anything to free it?

If you had o conventional means would you resort to ultra orthodox methods to free your people from oppression?

these are quiestions you must consider because thats how they feel.

Wether they or you are wrong you have to address the problem and in my opinion both are wrong but ithe israelis have to shoulder more of the blame because they are the more powerful.

This is why like here in the UK there must be dialogue. Its the only way to end conflict like this and in turn suicide bombings and terrorism.

Builing a huge fence round them wont work or help either. They;ll just feel more isolated and youll make more martyrs.