LINK

When will this insanity end?

I can't believe that my own country is
at war with islamic terrorists and seek
nothing less than wiping them from the
face of Earth.

Meanwhile on the other hand we (the USA)
Are demanding that the Israelis sit at
the table and make peace with these same Islamic terrorists.

Who the hell are we to tell them how they
should or should not defend themselves?

Maybe Bush should live by his own rule
given to the Israelis and sit down for
peace discussions with Osama Bin Laden?

I say the Israelis should be free to
defend themselves anyway they choose,
if that means bulding a wall around
their tiny nation so be it!

REMOVED line, taken out of context,
meant to make a bold point and failed.

We cannot dictate to Israel when we are
doing exactly what they want to do to
defend their own nation.

Who the hell are we to think that our
cause in this "war on terror" is somehow
better or more just than theirs?

No wonder so much of the world is growing
to hate the USA, Hell I can't even
understand our international positions
anymore.

Gazz

I cant believe some people are dumb enough to believe their god would want them to blow themselves up and take out innocent people with them . Were does it say anything about this in the koran ?

Gazz, you might be right, but you shouldn't call them animals. They are humans as well

Xeno, jihad is written in the Koran. It is not holy war as those terrorists preach to the suicide bombers, but it means 'to strive'. In fact if you use 'holy war' as the translation for jihad, a lot of quran sentences will not make any sense.

Muslims may not start a war, it is unholy and it is written in the Koran.

Each time they kindle the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it. They rush about the earth corrupting it. Allah does not love corrupters.

War is justified, but only for self defence (so they are allowed to kill US soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan, but not in the US)

Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits.

And may be one of the misused verse:

Jihad against the disbelievers with your hands and tongues.

So if you put 'strive' as jihad, it sounds more like what Christian evangelists are doing right now.

exactly what I meant , I was referring to why would these people believe their god would want this . I already knew what the koran says ( but thanks anyway for posting it ) It doesnt say in the koran to go blow yourself up to obtain 72 virgins ... do al quaeda terrorists even read their own religious text ? WTF ?

I am sorry if I have offended anyone
with my post, I gave in to my own anger
and frustration, and it made me call
a whole culture of humanity animals.

That was wrong and totally unfair.

I am in some ways simpathetic to the
Palistinians, I just have a hard time
with our own US leadership dictating
to the Israelis how they should handle
their own threats of terrorism while
the USA is in an all out war with the
same radical Islamic elements.

I do not believe all Muslims are bad.
and if I gave that impression I am really
sorry.

I think the enemy is on both sides in
any conflict... and that enemy is always
pure evil lust to kill.

Gazz

Hey Gazz, don't kick yourself too hard. Every religion has a radical faction that will bastardize the teachings to suit thier purpose. The christians have done it, the Jewish faith has done it (not very often) and muslims have done it. The problem is when you get a leader like OBL, who can convince others that His interpatation of the Koran is the correct one, then you get suicide bombers that are willing to die for what they believe.

My question has always been "what if....?" What if they are all wrong and there is no God, no afterlife, no nothing except death. I'd be pretty pissed off to find I blew myself up for no reason.

PLEASE NOTE. I am not knocking anyones beliefs. I have my own. I just asked a What If question.

But it is a very sad state of affairs that people are willing to kill others to make a point.

So long as the Irsealis continue to commite their acts of genocide against the Palistinian people, murdering thousands including children to make living space (a concept Hitler made famous) for Isreali settlers, we cannot claim that it is outragous for the Palistinians to defend themselves. The Palistines use bombs, the Isleasis use death camps(a concept Hitler made famous),tanks and missles, both kill military and civilian targets, why should one be condemned a terrorist and not the other simply because his method of killing is less technolgically advanced.

The Iseali's are the ones occupying another country and massacaring its people, who have every right to defend themselves.

Do not compare the Palistinian fight to liberate their country from a vicious tyranical oppressor with Bin Laden who commits acts of terror against civilians in countries which have no quarrel with his nation because of some insane religious belief.

By supporting the "building a wall around their tiny nation" your supporting them retaining the land seized in their invasion of their neigbourss and by supporting the "bombing the Palistinians into oblivion" you are supporting the complete annihalation of a people who have done nothig to warrant the attack and occupation of their fascist neighbour. The acts you voice your support for are no different that had Hitler wiped out the entire populations of the nations who fought against his occupation of their nations in WW2.

One more thing, US is not fighting against muslim extreemist. Saddam Hussein is a secular leader, not a fundamentalist.

Gazz,

with your first post, i agree with 99% percent of everything you said there (1% because no one is perfect).


Jews have taken sh** for 2000 years and now they're defending themselves and everyone dissaproves of it. Remember when the peace treaty was on for a few months and guess who broke it, the Palistinians so who's the aggressor

I mean your arguement seems to be, kill all Palistines we sort out Isreals' problems.... hmmm didn't Hitler think killing all Jews would sort out Europe's economic problems too?

There does seem to be an amazing lack of education as to what's actually going on over there I remember this exact same debate started in other forums I've been to, and so many people thought it was a great idea to just nuke Palistine, and kill every man woman and child living there...

Doesn't anyone remember that it's their country? And the land was literally stolen from them to set up the Israili state in the first place

well killing all the palestinians or killing all the jews would actually sought things out:P but as that is unrealistic, i say pushing for peace is the only thing possible, the Palestinians are jut going to have to accept the Jews aren't going to move out, and the Jews are going to have to realise that they aren't helping the cause with their little plans which scream irony.

THe israelis have broken no fewer that 34 major regulations put in place by the UN to stop acts of genocide and cuelty against humanity.

Iraq broke fewer regulations and we invaded them.

The point is that there is such a lack of education on the palestine issue that people think the israelis are just protecting themselves from the big bad palestinians who incidently for the most part have nothing to combat the F-16 and tanks but rocks.

They were forced out of their country and made to live in what amounts to nothing more than concentration camps....remind you of anything?

Theyare repressed, are not alllowed a democratic right and ruled with an iron fist.

Now imagin someon did that to yourselves in your respective countries gazz and dowdy, then took away any means of defending yourself and family. You had to endure daily interrogation and the occasional tank rollin over your house.

Wouldnt you use whatever means you could to fight back?

Dont confuse the seperate issue that is palestine with september the 11th.

The palestinians have a plight that has been forced upon them by britain originally and then a U.S. backed israeli state.

Why do u think the palestinians hate america? its because the bombs that are dropped on them are from american backed fighters, the rockets fired on them are from american backed gunships and the tanks ruinin their everyday life are american backed.

This issue is not as black and white as you may think.

Just because you dont hear about isrlaeli attrocities doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

By the way im only describing this situation from a different viewpoint, i am not in any way condoning the actions of bombers and the fact that children seem a target so often disgusts me.

everything comes from lack of knowledge. Go out there and see what's actualy happening instead of watching CNN or MSNBC. I think all of us here are already familiar with the conspiracy topic

Much of the Anti-West and primarily Anti-US feelings in the Middle East stem from America's support of Israel and it's appalling behaviour over the Palestinians.

Imagine your home was bulldozed or your child shot for throwing stones at tanks?

Iamagine you were imprisoned by security fences and unable to work.

We roll our eyes at the horror of suicide bombings, but these people must have lost all hope to be turning to this option (yes, I know for some it is a religious act, but for many others it is because they have seen their people brought to their knees).

Over 3000 Palestinians have been killed during this current conflict, the vast majority have been civilans.

Israel carrys out assassinations by helicopter gunship and fighter plane, which unsuprisingly results in innocent bystanders losing their lives aswell.

I certainly do not support the suicide bombings, but believe that dialogue between the opposing sides is the only option to preventing the continued slaughter of the innocents (both Israeli and Palstinian).

Thank you Talon for these links, and you are right this is some strong stuff.

These links may not last long because of this fact, but if only we were forced to see these type of images more then we in the West might put more pressure on Israel to end this nightmare.

The image of the father trying (in vain ) to shelter his son is the one image that has always haunted me since the begining of this conflict.

The problem with the suicide bombings is that they target innocent civilians, which does the Palestinian cause no favours. But with little or no help from the West, these young men and women seem to have lost all hope and simply want vengence now.

As usual, it is the innocents on both sides who pay the highest price for their leader's follies.

These are indeed depressing times.

I saw a TV documentary about 'terror tourists'. basically it was about Americans (and I'm not slating ALL Americans, just these) who went on an 'educational' holiday to learn about terrorists first hand in Israel post 9-11.
After the obligatory firing loads of guns at targets, they were then lead through the 'enemy' area, armed to the teeth. This was a Palestinian settlement (Hebron) where there was a curfew, and no one was allowed on the streets. One of the 'terror tourists' went back to the coach because she 'felt too frightened'.
They then camped out in the desert, and had armed guards, in case they were attacked by 'terrorists'

The whole show was sickening, and not once did they introduce the Americans to any Palestinians, to get their perspective.

link

After reading all the post in this thread. I have come to the logical Conclusion that we need to get rid of all humans. It is the most logical solution. That way there won't be anyone left to say who was right and who was wrong. No wars over religion or race or power. The one thing that I have never understood was why we, the "superior" animal, kills our own kind for no other reason than to make a point.
So barring, aliens taking each faction of the worlds population to a planet that each belief system can rule over. (Should only take a couple hundred thousand planets.) If we just get rid of all the humans, we won't need to worry about innocent people getting killed. See problem solved.

That's a good idea !!!!

< checking eBay for nukes >

To Talon S.:
Edited out

First of all, Israel didn't put the palestinians into camps - Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon did.
They also told the Palestinians to leave Plestine back in 1948 so they could "Kill the Jews". The plan was that after the Arab countries will destroy young Israel, the palestinians will return.
Did you hear about the 800,000 Arab Jews that were expelled from Arab countries in 1948, communities that were 2,500 years old Just disapeered and all their properties were taken. Today the majority of Jews in Israel are descendants of those Arab Jews (the president of Israel is such a Jew). Ashkenazim are only 30-40% of the Jewish population.
Suicide bombings started in Palestine back in 1920 - when Jews were kicked out of Hebron, Tzfat, and other cities were they lived for hundreds of years.
Palestine was never an independant country - hack! there was no Palestinian identity until 40 years ago. Even back in the 20' they called themselves Southern-Syrians.
As for comparing Israelis to Nazis - ask any Palestinian what he thinks about Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini, who was to Palestinian-Arab nationalism what was Hertzl to Zionism. He was one of Hitler's best friends and he is responsible for the murdering of hundren of thousands of Jews in Europe.
Did you know that the most popular book in the PA territories is Mein Kampf?
Does the fact that all the Palestinian politicians are obssesed with creating a Judenrein Palestinian state doesn't bother anyone?
Did you know that Israel is the only western state that took Africans in, not as slaves but as equal citizens? Did you know that Israel built hospitals, schools, electricity and water supply for the Palestinians? Did you know that Israel is the best country in the middle-east to be an Arab in?
I would like to see how India, Russia, France, Britain, Spain and other "enlightened" counties act toward terrorists. I wonder if the british treated the Irish much better.
But ofcourse that doesn't matter to you, Talon, cuase you are such full of Jew-Hatred. edited out

Edit
Right, everybody calling anybody names from now on will receive an official warning

Oh come on guyz....

It is a war, just like any other wars, it is a fighting between evil and satan. The classical battle between good and evil exists only in storybooks and movies.

I wouldn't claim any knowledge about the matter before I go there and witness everything, even after I did that, I would not come here and post rants, for what I kno might be wrong. But I think Talon gave some good information.

Well, as a matter of fact I am a witness and I know what is going on here in Israel. And I can tell you that there is not even a single truth in what Talon said. It is pure Arab propaganda.

Look
here

and

Legacy of Palestinians (warning: the second link is graphic and shows dead people and body parts)

to see the truth in the Middle-East.

Uhm.. wait.. you posted a link from MFA and said that it contains the truth of middle east and not propaganda ???

So do you live in Israel? For us here, we have to go there to see what's going on, but if you live there, then you have to go out to get a better view.

Most people here believes that war in Iraq is a good thing, while Europeans don't. It is just a matter of point of view. And you need both sides to get the whole picture. Well, in fact you will never get the whole picture.

Thanks for the link but they don't work here.

Oh that is interesting... you find Talon's info to be good, although you can hear from his tone that he is very anti-israeli, and although he lives in Scotland, you accept his graphic propaganda to be reliable.
Are you sure the your being objective?
I need to get a better view? I think that it is Talon and people like him, who sit calmly in front of their computers in very far places like Scotland, Belgium, Holland, etc. who need to get a better view...

It is not that I'm being non-objective, it is just your link doesn't work. I cannot open and read them. How am I supposed to justify its contents??

I believe you know better than Talon, but the government may not be telling you the truth, therefore I cannot trust MFA website any more than Arab propaganda. In fact governments never tell the truth in times of war.

This thread is being followed with keen eyes.

The moderating team doesn't strive to close threads in which a healthy, even somehow agressive, discussion is going on.

Keep up the good discussion, but we would appreciate it if it would be kept from sliding downhill. In that case this thread will be closed without second thought.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

And one more thing:
"The image of the father trying (in vain ) to shelter his son is the one image that has always haunted me since the begining of this conflict." -Stamford

The father was a terrorist and he used his own son to shelter himself from the fire... but ofcourse you don't hear that in European TV Channels.
(There is a saying here in Israel that says: "The day Palestinian mothers will love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be true peace").
The kid was fired by a Palestinian terrorist (accidentaly, I'm sure) when he fired on IDF soldiers.
And what about the Rammalah Lynch? It is funny how that image doesn't haunt anyone in Europe...

Here, now the link should work. Again, this is a VERY graphic film.

OK that's pretty strong graphics too. I guess you know how it's like to live under constant terrorist threat, something that most of us not very familiar with. I can see the problem is not as simple as "bad Israelis firing missiles to civilians.", but it is also not about "bad Palestinians suicide bombers targetting civilians." It is actually nice to have you in this thread, but please keep down your emotion

Erikl - are you Israili? Because if so, that slants you veiw point just a little...

shouldnt this thread be in the current affairs/world events forum? just a thought.

in war, neither side is innocent. that being said, i am more sympathetic to the Palestinians in this situation than the Israelis. the reason i am sympathetic to the Palestinians is that the Israelis could end this situation by giving up those contested areas and stopping the domination of a nation by force. i do not agree with suicide bombings though and i can understand why the Israelis are so reluctant to just walk out of the occupied territories but that is the only solution that will bring peace.

this is hardly the result of 'propaganda' as almost all news in the US is very sympathetic to Israel and not the Palestinians. if a suicide bombing happens, we hear about it immediately as a top news story, but when Palestinian children are murdered in the streets everyday, all we see is the stock footage flashes of rock throwing teenagers and protestors carrying a coffin (maybe with a blurb about how many people died). in contrast, we pour over the Israeli casualties and view them as total innocents murdered by extremists. if we are to be so outraged by innocents dying, why don't we show it on both sides equally? there is a definite pro-Israeli slant to our media and it has always bothered me.

why don't the Israelis stop building settlements in the disputed territory? the issue with the Palestinians is not just terrorism but rather a civil uprising against an occupying force. an entire nation of people is being terrorized everyday and having their future destroyed. the Israeli's may be terrorized too, but they still have a viable economy and a future for the majority of their citizens. in contrast, consider the life of the average Palestinian: the Israeli army rambles through towns wrecking any chance these people have for a normal existance- destroying homes, businesses and families. there is no future for them and they are acting as people without a future act.

i am always sad to hear about another suicide bombing, but its a sadness for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. its a human tragedy and the world should intervene to stop it. sometimes that is the only solution. if we leave it to the warring parties, it could go on forever.


btw, Erikl... if the man was a terrorist and using a child to shelter himself, does that make it right to kill the child just to kill the terrorist?

I agree with Bizarro on this one. From my point of view, it seems that neither side is totally in the right. Both sides have valid arguments. As for the father and the son in the video, it looked like they were unarmed, even if the dad was a terrorist, it seemed like an easy way to arrest him would have been right then when he was unarmed.

I just dont know where it is going to end. I also don't know why the US needs to be involved in the matter to the degree that they are. The problems in the middle east seem to be flowing out to the rest of the world, and that is what bothers me.

I can't remember whether I posted this earlier or not...my ISP is really smegged up at the moment, and won't let me post more often than not (is on Tal's comp right now) but my theory on this...

The fact is that there is no Genocide. There is no brutall kilings of innocent Palestinians. The truth is also that the Palestinians won't settle for the West Bank and Gaza. They want all of Israel. You can see it in their school books, in their government's symbols and speeches. The truth is that Israel's economy is not that good for the last 3 years. The fact is that Israel offered Arafat 97% of all the disputed territories and addition of 3% from Israel's terriroty. Araft refused.
You must understand that what you consider pro-Israeli, we consider somewhat anti-Israeli. Sure, Suicide Bombings are given full coverage. But still, the notion of cruel, Nazi-like Israel is being showed all over the world.
The fact is that most of the Suicide Bombings are commited by middle-class Palestinians, not some poor an miserable ones. The poor ones are more occupied with taking care of their families. The suicide bombings started long before 1967. The first intifada was in 1920, than 1929, than 1936, than 1948, than 1987, and now 2000.
Most Israelis see this war as a war that will set the future of the country.
The Palestinians already have Kassam missiles, RPG, AK47, M16 etc.
We see most of Europe against us, the UN traditionally against us, and no one supports us accept the US. This is how the avarage Israeli see this conflict.
As for the settelments - why does 1.2 million Israeli Arabs aren't a problem, and 200k Jews in the disputed territories are?
The day Palestinians will be willing to accept the 200k Jews in the West Bank and Gaza, as Israel is willing to accept 1.2 million Israeli Arabs, I will be convinced that they truly want peace.

I'm hoping this doesn't get the thread closed, but here goes:

In many ways I am sorry I started this
thread.

I was trying to point out the double
standard the USA applies to the conflict
in Israel between palistinian islamic
terrorists, and it's own agenda or war
against terrorism.

I don't care what side you are on
terrorism is terrorism, killing people
riding on a bus, eating at a diner,
working in office buildigs is not an act
of war, no mater what your cause is
there is no way to give these kind of
attacks any justification.

The radical islamic terrorists see any
jew as a target, hell they have even
killed their own in the name of jihad.

They do not want peace with Israel they
wish for all israeli jews to be pushed
into the sea.

As I said before in any war or conflict
that results in the death of humans the
real enemy is on both sides.. and that
enemy is the pure lust to kill.

Gazz

conclusion : were all nuts .

Stillcrazy, I found some nukes from India and Pakistan, but it won't be enough to eliminate the human race. I'm thinking of taking over Russia as they have big stock of nukes, ready for launch. Can you find an attack squad for that plan?