Hey everyone. I thought this was an interesting piece of excerpt from the Journal of George Fox, one of the main founders of Quakerism or Religious society of friends. It raises quite an interesting debate. Fox was very knowledgeable of the Scriptures, It was said that were the Scriptures lost, they could be recovered from Fox’s memory of them. Anyways let me know what you think of this excerpt :

And when I came there (a steeplehouse), all the people looked like fallow ground, and the priest , like a great lump of earth, stood in his pulpit above. He took for text these words of Peter, 'We have also a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts.'

And he told the people that the Scriptures were the touchstone and judge by which they were to try all doctrines, religions, and opinions, and to end controversy. Now the Lord's power was so mighty upon me, and so strong in me, that I could not hold, but was made to cry out and say, 'Oh, no, it is not the Scriptures', and was commanded to tell them God did not dwell in temples made with hands. But I told them what it was, namely, the Holy Spirit, by which the holy men of God gave forth the Scriptures, whereby opinions, religions, and judgements were to be tried; for it led into all Truth, and so gave the knowledge of Truth.

For the Jews had the Scriptures, and yet resisted the Holy Ghost, rejected Christ the bright morning star, and they persecuted Christ and his apostles, and took upon them to try their doctrines by the Scriptures, but erred in judgement, and did not try them aright, because they tried without the Holy Ghost.

Now as I spoke thus amongst them, the offices came and took me away and put me into prison, a pitiful stinking place, where the wind brought all the stench of the house of office in the place, where the stench of the place was in my throat and head many days after.



-----Chapter three, pages 39-40 of George Fox's Journal, edited by John L. Nickalls

The event took place in 1649.

Kinda like saying that spiritual intuition is more important than writing on paper and that writing on paper is only so good in so far as it points to the value and existence of spiritual intuition.

Any thoughts? I'd like to see comments by Christians and non-christians alike. I think this is a very interesting topic and shows the erring of 'bible bashers'.

im the 1st to reply in here...and for some reason brave has all ready gave this top star ratings!!as it states only one person rated it! LMAO..WOW *****

Thank you so much for your opinion on the topic. Yes I did give it a five star rating because I think George Fox makes a very VERY awesome point.

well there have been many inspired books. Spiritual inspiration is very individual and in being such very unique to each person. The problem also being inspiration never makes it to the page or canvas or poetry or photograph without being distorted by our surroundings , culture , preconceived ideas , wants . desires , what we have been taught , edited , arranged , ect.......... aware or not.

So while I think the first spark of inspiration is the best - it is never and can never be related purely. we always change it somehow even if only with opinion or definition of it . and many times unaware of it.

I can be inspired by a sight , a dream , a thought , a person to paint each , but in every painting goes a piece of me. It's never 100% but how my mind filters it.

and who can really say if inspiration is spiritual ? The idea that comes from nowhere , and that happens to me all the time , could be our subconscious working overtime and that is how it shows itself.

saying inspiration , even of a spiritual nature in idea , is from God is akin to saying God exists. While I do believe in God I also know there is no proof of Gods existence. A feeling is not proof. nor is an inspirational moment. Science has inspirational moments all the time. Does that mean God is writing out our science ? Math ? then the Koran and the Tibetan Book of the Dead as well too.

Inspiration happens to all people . On all subjects. I don't think the page is anymore important that what is inspired . What I think is more important is to understand that there is always room to grow further in that inspiration . That no answer gained means that's it , it's over and there is no reason to go further or that it's an absolute truth. Especially in matters where God is concerned with our limited understanding of the subject matter. we need to keep being inspired and change as that takes us.

Make any sense ? I haven't had any coffee yet.

Awesome post! I agree with it all. I would however say that intuitive experiences can be proof for God's existence but only on a subjective level. Also I think it is incredibly likely that grace or Tao also inspires the beauty of mathes and science and art etc.

You are write though. The inspiring moment can never be complete at any form of second remove from the experience itself but can (as you would know) leave behind its beautiful mark in whatever form.

Your post made complete sense to me.

Thanks for the invite to the thread, brave. Its a little to early for me right now, so I'll probably have more detailed posts later on. Tough call here. An atheist can easily say there is no evidence of god, and that all scriptures from any religion are merely 'primitive' ways to try and explain the natural laws...birth, death, etc. and because they did not know better, they attributed natural phenomena like lightning, say, to something is spirit; it was all they knew; thus man created god, and in turn created scripture to formulate a belief system around same.

Obviously, though, this is not an opinion I share. I am inclined to agree with this approach to scripture(s). Scripture to any person of faith should only take it as a blueprint. Like when I see all these other threads on here with people bickering about what the scripture REALLY means, overall, I think its just absurd. Theological debates and controversy reminds me of two drunks arguing at a bar. It accomplishes nothing, save creating further divisions and leading people more astray from true spirituality. We need to APPLY what we learn, not debate over it.

Overall, I do think, however that scriptures are divinely inspired. God chooses to reveal himself differently to different cultures. All paths lead back to Source. What if our subconscious is working overtime? I think our subconscious is our closest link to our divine nature. The subconscious is the storehouse of all things spiritual; knowledge of god, of past incarnations, psychic ability and the third eye....its all there in the subconscious. It is the link to the Akashic Records, or the Book of Life, every word, every deed, every event, every thought, impressed upon the skein of time and space. All that has ever been or will be is a part of the Record.

So if the writing of scripture has anything at all to do with the subconscious, then it is more the product of our spiritual true self, and the akashic record.

I also believe in the Holy Spirit, that He also has influence to these matters, as told in the Bible.....but to other religions as well.

Regardless, ultimately, look at any scripture as a sign on the road, to show you the directions, but then YOU, YOU have to walk the path. Its not so much whats IN it. We dwell too much on that. Its what's taken FROM it. The LIVING word. The Logos.

Good post! Yes I agree about the subconscious/unconscious mind being an untapped pool of spiritual and mental powers, intuitions etc. I am reminded of a quote here:

God has no religion. --Mahatma Gandhi

Would you agree that that which gives forth the scriptures is more profound than the words on the scriptures?

Im not sure if it is exaxctly the same thing, but your op reminded me of the old question, "which is more important ,the law or the sprit"?"

In my opinion, the answer is that both are indispensable. Without the law or the scripture we would only have inner faith or inspiration as a knowledge base. This might be enough in certain peolple, but in general, for most people it is not. Many people cannot distinguish spiritual truths from their inner resources, either because they have never been taught how to do so, or because they have never been given the values to do so.

Thus the law/scripture lays out a pattern or a path for behaviour, which will ensure a good and righteous life (or whatever the goal of the path you are pursuing is)

The inspiration, the faith, the love, or what ever you call the motivating force behind your belief, is equally important of course. Without it, the words are meaningless; and simply fulfilling the law or scripture will not advance your spiritual goals. Inspiration, faith, love ,or spirit both provide meaning to the laws/scriptures, and also motivation which makes living by them a joy, and much easier to do.

I thought the idea of ratings was for those that read the thread and then rate it..not the thread starter lol

Actually, this is a good post Mr. Walker... You're right! It takes education, discipline and the willingness to be guilded by an inner-light. You're right, for most people that's very scary and very difficult. This is likely the reason there are so few Friends... but, that's ok.

And BNW, you know I can't disagree...

Anyone can add a rating to a thread, even the thread starter. BNW is quite within his rights to do so, though perhaps shows a tinge of arrogance to give his own thread the highest rating (though most people who rate their own thread are going to give it full marks). If you don't think the thread deserves 5 stars, make a rating you think better reflects the discussion. There's not much will be accomplished by dragging the thread off topic to point it out.

btw - inspiration , be it science , artistic or spiritual all feels the same when your captured by it. no difference in the feeling between them . all happen with that same spark. that spiritual inspiration feels exactly the same as the scientific or artistic.

and all add to it previous experience - the multitude of writers of the bible . the multitude of the 4 gospels alone added to it their own views , cultural views and beliefs of the time , political views as well as their own wants and desires for what they thought should be.

Science in it's inspiration then banks and uses older science - Art , no matter how new an idea , still utilizes older ideals as well.

No one works in a vacuum.

I gave it four stars from day one, luckily you can re-vote lol, because even if I disagreed with the conclusion I did agree with the quoted works. No one should take the Scriptures and stop there and claim they have Truth. It is the Holy Spirit which uttered the Scriptures and it is also the Holy Spirit that one must use to live by the Scriptures. Without the Spirit the Scriptures are invalid. Without the Spirit our spirit remains trapped behind our willful soul.

Absolutely! "Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words..." St. Francis

Yes, the Word is important, but it is only the starting point. One should be trying to achieve a mystical union with God.

I think you make a good point here. Scripture can help one get in touch with God or intuition or if not at the very least point that something as such exists. Spiritual insight as its partner has ethical behaviour which renders away with the ego and makes room so to speak for spirit (I must decrease so that He can increase). Scripture can often help with that hence both compliment each other. The problem is people often interpret scripture with irrational beliefs and sadly with most Christianity a belief in itself is seen as an end in itself and as ethical in itself and so often people feel justified to be done with any form of actual ethical behavior or selflessness because 'works are but dirty rags in the eyes of God'. Such people convince themselves that a mere belief and faith in that belief is supremely important (i.e Luther). Such people then go on to devalue or oppose or be indifferent to other amazing insights from various other religions or philosophies because they wernt founded on a literal historical Jesus, such people dont 'test all things;' but pre-judge them unjustly.


But in a chicken and egg what came first sense, I would definately have to say that mystic experience comes first and as most scriptures admit including christianity that the potential for such experiences is inherant in all people and has been since at least the dawning of mankind. Hence such mystical or deeply spiritual experiences can be had and often is had spontanously by many people without any reference to a form of theology. And it is in my view that such experiences are that which gives rise to scriptures to point out our true identity which is Spirit and help us as a means to have such experiences for ourselves because such experiences are the ultimate fulfillment and at the end of all psychological analysis all people seek fulfillment.

YOU INDOCTRINATED QUAKER!!!!

Well said Clovis. I am curious though. What if the Holy Ghsot or Spirit inspires that Christ isnt the only true man of God but that their have been others. How does one reconcile what scripture says to what the Holy Ghost says if the Holy Ghost leads one to experience something different other than what scriputres might say? Who has the end spiritual authority if you like?

alright, i'm gonna simplify this cuz its late and i'm tired The scriptures are naught but a path to God. But you can't reach your destination without a path, and your path leads nowhere without a destination. Both are vital to the journey.

lol I re-read the OP, and now I don't think my earlier post fully applies to the topic like I said, I'm tired, and if my post doesn't apply then disregard it hehe

I think scriptures are very necessary for many people i.e me because many people are really at a loss as to how to find fulfillment that is everlasting and real. However scriptures ultimately arnt essential in that the material for scriptures is within each and every one of us and this raw material isnt multible but One and our real nature and is whether we we know it or not (or whether we have scripture or not) guiding us into true oneness or awareness of it which is all truth.

I am a monalatrist and a modalist. To answer your question I only need to discuss monaltry. That is I only follow One God but accept the fact other gods exist and others can follow them as well. The God of the Bible I follow is the same as Jesus and the Holy Spirit and is manifest throughout the Word through the concept of Logos. So if there is another spirit that leads others to reject whole or any part of the Word it is not the Spirit I follow according to the Bible. Your view if my understanding is correct even claims the complete Word taken as One is erroneous so our views cannot be compatible based just on that. Reconciliation is not possible then for either way in the end we will see each other's views as mistaken when applied towards the Bible. Maybe you will see part of me is just blind to the fact that the same Spirit that I seek guidance from but it is definite in my view that the spirit that guides you is not the one described in the Word. For me all the Truth is contained in scripture.

The difference between you and me as far as the bible is concerned is that I interpret the bible in a more liberal universal way i.e 'All Scripture is breathed out by God' to me is interpreted as ll great scriptures whether Christian or not and not just Jewish/Christian, wheras you interpret it in a more exclusive way.

My question is this: What if the same Holy Ghost of the bible leads one to other scriptures or religions?

I myself can back myself up with scripture here:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. ---1 Thessalonians 5:21

What if the holy ghost that inspired the bible leads one to the Bhagavad Gita and then the Gita is proven to be good. Ought one not to hold fast to it??

I would say the Holy Spirit as described in the Bible would not mislead someone from not accepting all of the Word and that you are under the guidance of another spirit. Now I might be dead wrong but I am willing to take that risk because I trust in my learning, the full Word, and the guidance. So be aware I am giving your view room of possibly being correct but I have only faith in mine due to the Word and the Spirit. Our views will not and cannot agree in the end. You subscribe to 'religious pluralism' and I subscribe to monolatrism. Some of us, not all Christians, believe the beast of Revelation, the man of lawlessness from other books of the Bible, will attempt to forge a global religion claiming to be the Messiah for all of them, the fifth Buddha, the final Imam of Islam, the return of Jesus, etc...all things for all people. Some of us since we are monolatrist or monotheist will not follow this hypothetical beast and for it we will be persecuted. Now this is just a hypothetical view but if it happens I hope some of you remember us since we are not violent or wish violence on others and if there is anyway to help us do so. Just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to worship anybody else except we will also. The important factor in this is that beast or not beast, just because we refuse to worship other gods under religious pluralism, we do not claim others are wrong for doing so. So please do not cast us in a bad light for wanting to stick with what we feel is comfortable for us while at the same time we are not telling anyone else they are wrong for worshiping the way they wish to. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not tell others they were wrong and neither did the believers in Acts 19 blaspheme Artemis we are not doing such either. Also of note is I may not be speaking for all self identified Christians for many would disagree with me on one or all points. Now all of that should not be confused in me telling someone they are ignoring part of the Word and misapplying it versus their view is simply wrong and I am right. I have no issue doing the first but have problems with me or anyone else doing the latter.

I must say..that, clovis was an excellent post..well presented and it spoke to me..(funny enough lol)..but you know what I mean

I cant put my finger on it...but you have a great understanding of God more so than so many others...you know what speaks to you...you make sense of it..you follow it...indeed very spiritual

but forgive me..but I feel that someday..you will find more truth..it might not be in a scripture...something else will happen..I dunno what..I dont even know why all of a sudden this post made me read over and over and now respond....but I the odd time get a weird gut feeling, and I feel that some day soon, you will experience something good and it will speak truth to you..

please don't ask me what lol..I dont know....there is something about you though...something that speaks out ...and its nice

I pick up vibes from people from time to time...it is weird..good and bad...I love the good more

I hope so BM for I would not be closed to that. God can speak to all of us and true no one needs a Bible to call out to God and feel His Spirit. Even believers through the Word will be touched, inspired, guided by God that have nothing to do with the scripture. It is not like if I was trapped in a place without a Bible I would lose my sought out connection to God, or that when one has to do the right thing in any given situation that I would have to run and consult scripture, as you stated before we all know what is right and wrong and that I do believe is God.

There you go again, making good use of the ability God has gave you..........there is something strange (a good strange) about you...its good..but you have something that not many believers hold...if I could think of an appropriate word to explain it al I would.

Yes God does speak to a lot of people through so many different faiths..but its rare you meet someone that has something special within them......you are one of them...is it God telling me this about you?? could well be...after all (and please dont take this the wrong way)...I normally glance at your posts and skip over them..but for some reason..something made me STOP and I felt it

You sir will soon stumble on to something greater...bigger than any scripture...<--thats what is being told to me...thats the vibe I am picking up from you...IM SERIOUS!!!

EDIT..forgot to add..........Look at those that claim they were chosen, how they felt God called out to them..........you on the other hand are a different ball game...it now turns out that a stranger senses something special about you and feels you are chosen for something great....could I possibly be discovering a NEW prophet?? or similar??

If there is any spark within me, my mother has always thought so since I was a child preaching to a crowd at four years old from the Reina-Valera version (Spanish) of the Bible, I have strayed radically far from that in the past, but if there is any spark within me it is due to God and nothing special about me. I definitely do not consider myself a prophet or anything special at all. Though I wonder if my calling is just to have the gift of discernment which basically is seeing things in others and using that information to pray for them. Most of the time one with that gift would not even tell the other person what they saw in them since that can only lead to startling, hype, and a very bad way of helping another. I only say this because my path has led me to learning so much about spirits and one time in church when I was attending I saw something in someone and in an instant knew what I saw, I did not think about it for the rest of the service, within one minute I let the thought slip, but later that night after service when I thought about it again I instantly knew I was just meant to pray for that person and nothing else. To be honest it is something I have shied away from because it takes great spiritual strength to even be involved in spiritual warfare; even if it wholly consist of being a prayer warrior and no hype at all. That is my view anyways regarding that.

So your own mother saw it...SEE I knew I was right...I knew someone else has seen this...she is your mother and every mother knows their son/daughter better than anyone...she saw a gift ...your mother is right...

you preaching at 4 yrs of age is amazing...there was a documentary on one night...talking about children much like you once were..and to find these kids was rare....

Your mother is a lucky woman to have a gifted son



Could that (what you once did in the past)..be what is called - a stepping stone?? a journey?? meaning it was just the tip of the iceberg that in later years you will stumble onto to greater things?? spiritually of course??? ............yes its due to God..but like I told you, god has gave this to everyone, its up to you to make USE of your inner strength to realize it...thats what is speacial for not many do this


The vibe and feeling I pick up from you is nothing like a prophet...similar but not the exact same..........it could be that you will stumble on to something much greater than any scripture but..it could be something that WONT have you exposed to the rest of the world...meaning..you wont find yourself being questioned and others askking you for help...no...you may not find yourself getting noticed by others..but you will notice something else...

me for example...I made use of the ability God gave me.........I can sense things..more so from things and people who are close to me...meaning near me...even strangers and 10/10 I am always right...so much that at times it spooks me just how right I was

Sometimes when I predict things it turns out good..but when I get bad feelings about people I hate it..for I know that it will come true and it always does...

I once sank with depression over it..I didnt want to pick up those vibes and be correct..I wanted to see what it is like to get it wrong..but that has never happened..I am always right...sigh!! my grandmother was the same...

its hard to explain...but let me give you an example.....

A girl that I never really bothered with in work told us all that she had met this great guy and she couldnt wait to introduce him to us ....one day she came in and with her was the guy, he looked good...smiled and made the rest think he was grand...........then I sat near him an froze up...I felt something negative and for some reason I couldnt speak to him...I made an excuse to get away and so I did................my other friend came after me and asked what the problem was..........I told tash I picked up a bad vibe from him...even though he was all smiles and was friendly...I still picked up this vibe...she thought I was nuts..I then said without thinking - "Tash he is going to hurt her and fill her with fear"........she froze and thought I was loosing it...Ibegged her not to say anything........2 weeks later ....that guy was arrested for assult....he beat up the girl and threatened her if she told, she will get more .............Tash looked atm e with her face drained and said - You freak me out ..how did you know???...............I told her I didnt know...it just came to me.....I felt it....she then trusted me...I hated myself for it..but how was I able to stop it??
Its the same with Good vibes...I have told good vibes to others and was seen to be correct...but I just wish for once I could be wrong

I hope you don't mind if I give my opinion on this. I would point to the passage that Jesus gives about a Kingdom divided against itself. When the people saw Jesus driving out demons, they said, "Look, he is calling on the power of Satan", and he replies that a Kingdom divided against itself cannot hope to stand. If the "Holy Spirit" leads someone to other beliefs, I would argue that they are not being guided by the Holy Spirit at all. Many people say "inspiration of the Holy Spirit" when what they really mean is "what I believe/feel". The two are not compatible statements. The Holy Spirit cannot lead away from the God of the Bible because the Holy Spirit is God, and thus to lead away would be to divide the proverbial kingdom, and as Jesus stated, a kingdom divided against itself cannot hope to stand. The Bible states that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ, and if what you think/feel/believe says something different, then it is either just your own opinion, or perhaps the workings of a being other than God. But what it is NOT, is the work of the Holy Spirit.

My beliefs and opinions are not the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They are just that - my beliefs and opinions. I may at times be guided to speak by the Holy Spirit at times, but if what I say is contrary to the scriptures, then it is not the Holy Spirit. That is what I believe, and that is how I continue to live. The Bible is the sole authority on God, in my humble and obviously biased opinion.

That said, I will not begrudge anyone from believing what they wish. If someone else wants to follow a different path, then I wish them the best of luck. I can only tell people what I believe from my point of view. All the best,

it is arrogant to think God could not inspire one who does not believe in the bible or Jesus. what does that say about the Jews who didn't and don't believe in Jesus ? The Jews that were ' God inspired ' to write the OT ? God inspired Mohammed to write the Koran. God inspired the Tibetan Book of the Dead. God inspired Harry Potter too !

God inspires me everyday , but I don't belong to any one faith . I think that that limits our view of God.

God can and does inspire people who DON'T believe in him. yes God is that big !! Can you say God wouldn't or doesn't ?



yet that God or Gods that other religious follow is the same God your following - only viewed differently.

We can say Clovis is a fundamentilist christian. yet is that all you are ? You have no other views? surely the face you put on for church isn't the same face you have on when your watching a football game. yet your still Clovis. Your view of God needs a saviour. Many don't. It doesn't make them less valid or under some other God. you may think so , but that is only your religions/faiths opinion. Not Gods. Just as my view of God isn't close to Hindu or Christanity. But it's the same God.

God's big enough to hold them all. and does.

Wow what a unique belief system. However I think it is wrong to assume that those who believe (and using biblical scripture to back them up) that there is One God who expresses itself throughout various different belief systems are going to fall prey to some false messiah. The bible isnt the Word but the words of God. The Word is Christ, a force that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The Word gave forth the scriptures through men but isnt the scriptures themselves otherwise the scriptures would be Christ itself.

Believing in an Infinite Oneness that expresses itself through all the many arts, religions and sciences etc isnt the same as being spiritually deluded.

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom." ---Albert Einstein

Also according to scripture it says:

Christ is all, and is in all.

----Colossians 3:11

According to your interpretation of the words 'all' may not mean all, however this part of the scripture I take literally. Christ who is God is everything. Whether we have put on the new self and realized consciously enlightenment of all is one or not, Christ is all. In my view those who say they have faith in Christ still havnt put on the new man because putting on the new man is to be completely rid of the ego and be renewed with the vision of what Reality (capital r), which is that Christ or God or Tao or Allah or Spirit etc etc is all.

In this fire, I have seen a world in which every atom breathes with the spirit-breath of Jesus. That world appears non-existent but s the essence of existence. This world appears substantial ,but actually is impermanent.

--Jala-uddin Rumi, Sufi mystic and poet.

I agree that Just because All is God doesnt mean that everyone (including myself) is consciously aware of this. Most are just aware of it in theory and not in real experience. Just because someone isnt aware of the word and nature theoretically of gravity doesnt mean that gravity isnt part of reality. However the bible from what I have read and all genuine mystics points that all is God.

However what if one interprets that one can only get to God through Christ as the light of the true Light which lighted us as we came into this world? It wouldnt be a far-fetched interpretation (for who is to say what is the correct interpretation?) to say that Christ is one of many great spiritual gurus (Word made flesh) to help us reach God and because Christ was the only one (or one that made the biggest seeable impact) in some particular part of the middle-east at the time, the people their used his name as the symbol for that of God within each of us. Christ guides his people more by pointing them inwards within themselves to God and less to scripture (Kingdom of God is within) and therefore if the scriptures of christ (lower case c) helps point one to the Christ (capital C) within themselves, which in turn may lead someone to direct insight into the nature of God directly or to other Christ (capital C) inspired scriptures which may help illumine one more about God and their relationship to it. Does not St. Paul say: 'Prove all things;hold fast that which is good.'? What if Christ (capital C) within leads one to a copy of the Bhagavad Gita and one practices it to prove its validity and it proves good? Ought one to hold fast to it? Since many other scriptures and inspired writings arnt actually in conflict with each other when looked at more deeply (all as Aldous Huxley has researched have an aspect of the perennial philosophy at least within them) how could it be God dividing up his Kingdom if he leads a devotee or devout follower to other Christ or God(capital C) writings for further spiritual progress?







Hence I am curious. What is your answer to my original starter post in this thread?

Well that is good to hear because the thought of having others rely on me scares me immensely. I am quite irresponsible. It is me most likely that you would have felt bad vibes about even a year ago. Trying to make amends especially with myself. That some of the darkest periods in life, be it through circumstance or our own design, is a stepping stone then I agree that is right. But it sounds very much like you have a gift of discernment yourself BM and if you want to call it that or perhaps just being an 'empath' (a term with quite a bit of information on it) you are gifted and it is terrible you ever have felt depressed over it but I can certainly understand and empathize why.



No truer words spoken PA regarding the difference between our beliefs and the inspiration from Spirit. The Spirit can give us a clearer understanding of the Word but mostly its purpose is just to renew us, make us better people, allow us to conquer some of our own struggles, and illuminate some of the darker paths of our lives. I agree through and through on every point.



Such encouraging and passionate words and I know you mean them 100% from your heart Ripley. I wish you could see what I see, not that it is more right, it is more limiting than your view indeed, but more limiting does not make it more wrong, it just makes me concentrated on specific aspects of God, and hopefully through it I can come into the fullness of God in the afterlife, my simple beliefs. While I do agree with PA above of course it makes me suspect for an instance that the Qur'an or the Vatican is misleading but it does not make me blind to see that Muslims and Catholics are very devoted to God themselves and good people. The same goes for the Buddhist, while their views radically deviate from mine are they still good people? In other words even if the Word was all wrong, using it as an example as I was others, even if if it was all wrong, which I do not believe it is, but if the Word was wrong God is indeed greater to be able to shine past lies and still find Its way into my heart by simply seeking and believing in God. I also agree with you that even to those who do not seek a savior they can still seek God and God will find Its way towards them. Still with all that said I do see the fullness of most pure teaching of God within the Word and anything that deviates from that is in a way limiting God. That is just my belief and nothing wrong with it. So you can see at the same time I am willing to admit I may possibly be limiting God through the Word my faith allows me to see it is the only path for 'me' to not limit God.

Well it is a unique view and my bit about the beast of Revelation leading others into a false sense of belief is just my belief. It does not form the focal part or core of my belief in God and is not part of the main message of the plan of salvation the Bible offers. Of course you know me and you disagree adamantly because while I use the Word and only the Word as the only scripture, and if a spirit leads me away from it, then I do not believe it is the Spirit for the Spirit will only lead me deeper into the Word.

We totally disagree when you claim 'the Bible is not the Word but the words of God'. We disagree not because the Bible claims to be Logos. We also disagree that the Spirit of God as stated in the Bible is the same spirit all have. One comment I must make is that I trust in the God of the Bible and that I feel in His wisdom He saw to it that He would not have to spread His message in so many places, so that one such as yourself or myself would have to go searching worldwide to find his message in others, and then to further discard some things and only apply other things until my view is so unique it is radically different than everyone else's, no I think God was smart enough to allow One Word to contain His most valuable truths to the World and knew that this Word should only be presented during an era where it could eventually spread across the globe. As it is 98% of the worlds population has access to this Word. As I stated before that does not mean to me that even those who seek God in other places will not find Him but Christ is to me the fullness of the godhead bodily.

As far as God being in all in the way you describe it I also have to disagree. When the Word says 'in all' to me means in all believers of the Word.



The Word to me not just gives me warning to stay away from views like yours but tells me the Christ of the Bible, the Logos of John 1 which states the Word was God and became flesh, is in the Word and one does not have to go outside of that. I do not begrudge your view but it is not inline with the Word, which you reject a whole part of, and nothing wrong with that for as I said already God can be found in other places, but that is not a risk I am willing to take by venturing off to find him in other places, even if you do not consider it venturing we will simply have to agree to disagree. Cheers.

Hi Clovis. I agree with you on some of this and disagree on other parts.

I agree that even if I did not have a Bible at hand, I could still relate with the Creator (though somewhat also believe that my relationship with said creator would be nowhere near as strong without it). I agree that you don't need to "run and consult scripture" on every little thing, though there are some times when it is absolutely necessary to do so (though i would not jeopardise someone's well-being while I sat and thought, "hmm, now what does the Bible say).

Where we differ is that I do not believe humans know everything that is right and wrong. I think there are some things we consider to be "givens" about what is right and what is wrong. However, this is not always the case. There are some things that people consider right and others wrong. And I'm not talking about simple things like "I won't eat meat sacrificed to idols" (the New Testament speaks of this and says that there is nothing wrong with it, but if a Christian brother feels it is wrong, then for them it is wrong and it would be detrimental for another believer to condemn them for this). I'm speaking of things in which the scriptures clearly define as right and wrong, yet our society deems ok.

One example that strikes out to me specifically is the matter of sex before marriage. The Bible holds that it is wrong, plain and simple. I hold to the Bible and so considering i am not married, I am still a virgin. But if it weren't for the Bible, would I consider it wrong? No. Even before becoming a Christian, I felt that sex was a special matter between two people and so wouldn't just go around and sleep with everyone. But neither did I consider marriage to be important to sexuality. Now, as a Christian, what I felt has changed. I will not give up my virginity until marriage. This flies in the face of what society considers right. A friend of mine just recently said about a 24-year old friend of his (and I quote): "It's pathetic to be a virgin". I mentioned that I was a virgin (I'm 28), and suddenly, there were "umm's, and ahh's", before saying, "But that's ok, because you chose this, right". In fact, people have before told me that I hide behind my Faith - I have been told directly, "You are just hiding behind the Bible because you can't get laid".

Society clearly has specific views about sexuality, and doesn't see a problem with pre-marital sex. But the Bible does. So clearly in this instance, what we know to be right and wrong is different to what the Bible claims. So where do we go from here? As a Chrisitan, I will take the Bible's view and stay free from sex. If I were not a Christian, though I do believe a certain level of intimacy is needed before I would give myself to someone, I would probably not be a virgin. I would not hold to "no sex before marriage".

To sum up, because of our sinful natures, there are some things that we all agree on with the Bible and so agree that they are wrong. But there are other things that are not clear-cut and people don't see as wrong. And to say that we all inherently know waht is right and wrong can only be used in the broadest sense possible.

Sorry for the long post, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. All the best,

I feel I must respectfully disagree, Lt R. Unless you believe that Jesus came to die for your sins, you do not worship the same God I do. I certainly respect your view and wish you the best in your path, but just because you believe that God encompasses all worldviews is also just your opinion, not God's. Of course, as you have said, you could say the same about my belief. I'm just saying that I disagree with you and believe my God has a set path that is required, and since you do not follow taht path, it is not the same God.

All the best, Lt R

I see what you're saying, BNW. But to answer your question as directly as possible, any path that leads away from Jesus as saviour is, imo, an incorrect path. If someone is "inspired" to seek the Baghavad Gita (for example), I would put this down to either their own intuition/opinion/feeling or the work of a different spirit. I believe that Jesus was the Christ (capital C) and was not just an example to find a "Christ" within ourselves.

If someone were to follow their intuiton though and follow a different path, I of course respect their wishes and their beliefs, and wish them the best. But I totally disagree with it

It's a difficult one to answer. I say "both". The scriptures are vital, as is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But as I said, what is the difference between a person's feelings/beliefs, and the inspiration of the Spirit? Many will take them as the same thing. They will believe their ideas have been inspired, when it's really their own opinion. I'm sure it's happened to me also. While I do use the Bible as much as I can to backup my own beliefs, in my 8 years as a Christian, I can only give you one clear time when I am certain that it was not my words but the Holy Spirit who spoke through me ("inspired by the Spirit" as you would say in this thread). The rest of the time, while I feel it has been based on the Bible, I can think was largely me speaking (perhaps inspired, but perhaps not). Is what I am writing now inspired by the Spirit? Perhaps, perhaps not. I am giving my opinion.

But my opinion does not therefore equal inspiration from the Spirit. And just because someone feels that their beliefs are correct does not make them so (and yes, I know that argument goes for my beliefs as well).

Just a few thoughts to consider,

I wish you could see what I see. That God doesn't subscribe to one religion. it's just that simple. Man has made God so out of reach , well tries too. When God is closer to each than their own skin. God could care less about a book(s) in my opinion and that it's man with his' easy' to use instructions that ends up having left over parts. Granted there are many that need to be told how to believe .

I appreciate that you at least understand where I am coming from here. Where we part here is that I see Christ in other symbolic guises in other religions wheras you dont.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you; and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

---1 John 2:27



I know what you are saying. However let us suppose for the threads sake that someone via the Holy Ghost does or judges something in a way that is apparently or directly contradictory of what is written in ancient scripture? Which one then is the authority?

I know you in advance will probably reflex think that the Holy Ghost wont ever contradict what is written in the bible, but for theological/philosophical speculation and exploration, what would count as the final authority? Spirit or scripture?

"that we should serve in the newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" ---Romans 7:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. ---2 Corinthians 3:6

For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. ---1 Corinthians 4:20

Ya we interpret the bible differently.





I respect your view. But yes we must agree to disagree. Wheras you believe that it is more the belief system one holds which brings salvation, I believe salvation comes from following the inner light of Christ which is in every man.

For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. ---Romans 14:17

Ephesias 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

One Lord = One infinite consciousness that expresses itself through all creation manifested and non-manifested , and a variety of religions which help one become one and realize their spiritual union with the divine.

One faith = One ultimate faith which is faith in Love. For God is love. Just as Buddhists have faith in love and compassion.

One baptism = Baptism of the Spirit and love which is within all people of all cultures.

One God and Father of all = Same applies as One Lord.


This is my rough interpretation. A full one would be an essay long. But here is a quote that sums up my view:

Like the bee gathering honey from different flowers, the wise man accepts the essence of different Scriptures and see only the good in all religions.
--- For the Srimad Bhagavatam

Is such a view supported by the bible? In my interpretation yes:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

---- Philippians 4:8

It doesnt say things only from the bible. I think you would even agree that there is good report , honesty, purity and virtue in Buddhism or Hinduism? In my view it supports the usage of other spiritual writings.

Does not Paul himself see only the good in all religions and inspired writings?


For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. --Acts 17:28

Agreed that we hold different views. All the best with your path, BNW

That is my reflex answer. I am afraid I cannot answer your question as to which would be the final authority. To me, the Bible is the inspired word of God. To me, the Holy Spirit is God that inspires us. It is a contradiction to think that one could contradict the other. So even for the purpose of interesting discussion, I can't answer you as to which would be the final authority because they are both equal and complementary, both hold the same power and authority as the other.

All the best,

I believe I was led to the Baghavad Gita specifically, lol. Outside of the Bible itself it is the most beautiful spiritual book I have ever read, and has had the most influence on me. Haha I actually think Krishna and Jesus are one and the same, so we probably won't agree there. But hey, I do like what you said about the Holy Spirit. I think He does inspire people. Now we may not necessarily agree as to whom; for me I believe He may have even influenced someone like the Dali Lama or Gandhi just as much as Christians, whether they know it or not. See, when you kill the ego, the spirit can then dwell in you. But without question, He DOES act.

Amazing how a non-exclusive Christian like Gandhi sets the best Christian example the world has seen for a long time.

I wasn't aware Gandhi preached Christ crucified for salvation of mankind by Grace through Faith

I see what you're saying. Gandhi may have been an excellent role model. Perhaps he had a great lot of things to teach us about ourselves and the world around us. Perhaps in that sense, the actions attributed to him might make him a good human being and a role-model for us all, and perhaps his actions could be considered "Christ-like". He did set a very good example on how to live. But Gandhi did not preach Christ crucified, and therefore his example for mankind can be only a superficial one (at best).

My opinion, of course

I am well aware that Gandhi preaches faith, love for God, and seeking truth non-violent means.



Only a superficial one according to your interpretation. He sets a richly enlivened example of a Christ (he too like Christ was killed for his teachings). I dont know anyone (though there may be many the media hasnt found) who practiced Christs teachings so practically and profoundly. St. Paul's interpretation of Christ's teachings are only that, an interpretation. He makes many good points but he too has interpreted them according to his own spiritual condition.

“Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this earth.”

Albert Einstein

Agreed. Gandhi had surrendered his will to God. Its not in my view focusing on the teachings, but embodying them. Gandhi walked with God, imo there is no doubt. A life of good and selfless sacrifice.

yet I've read -

that when Gandhi's wife lay dying of
pneumonia and British doctors insisted that a shot of penicillin would save her,
Gandhi refused to have this alien medicine injected in her body and simply let
her die. (It must be noted that when Gandhi contracted malaria shortly afterward
he accepted for himself the alien medicine quinine, and that when he had
appendicitis he allowed British doctors to perform on him the alien outrage of
an appendectomy.)

among other things.

http://history.eserver.org/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt

I believe that God is evolving. I cannot accept the idea of the watchmaker God who simply built the watch and now sits back and watches it tick away. I think God is self-created, evolving and testing everything as it, too, evolves.

Because of that, I believe a book being used as the standard of God stagnates his existence and does little to assist humanity in its evolution. By the very content of the book we see a God who repents the creation of humanity and realizes that he has erred . . . . something that conservative Christians would never recognize . . . and we see the evolution of man as he survives his intended extinction. In saying that, I am faithful to the original rendition of the Epic of Gilgamesh, not the corrupted version that appears in Genesis.

I doubt the "divine inspiration" claimed to have created the Bible. The long chain of such inspiration extends far past any point of logic. I believe the concept of "divine inspiration" may have been inspired . . . but by men with specific goals in mind.

It also ought to be noted that in his autobiography 'experiments with the truth' he greatly regreted his decision not to allow her to have the shot. Also this what written about Richard Grenier:


Richard Grenier (1933-January 29, 2002) was a neoconservative cultural columnist for The Washington Times, and a film critic for Commentary and The New York Times. He was a graduate and lieutenant of the United States Naval Academy. He is particularly known for his review on the critically-acclaimed film, "Gandhi", involving scathing attacks on Gandhi and India. The review was itself criticized by Jason DeParle in a successive issue of The Washington Monthly. [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Grenier

Also he says this when a woman rightly says that Rama is indian for God:

Well, Rama was just Indian for God, she replied,
at which I felt compelled to explain that, alas, Rama, collectively with his
three half-brothers, represented the seventh reincarnation of Vishnu. The young
woman, who seemed to have been under the impression that Hinduism was
Christianity under another name, sensed somehow that she had fallen on an
uncongenial spirit, and the conversation ended.

Any Hindu theologian will tell you that Incarnations of Vishnu are God for Vishnu is itself not only God but eh ultimate ground of all being:

Vishnu (IAST viṣṇu, Devanagari विष्णु), (honorific: Sri Vishnu) also known as Narayana, is supreme being or Ultimate Reality for Vaishnavas and a manifestation of Brahman in the Advaita or Smarta traditions of Hinduism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu

Just some extra information

That still doesn't change my opinion, although, I do admit I had forgotten about that. But as BNW noted, Gandhi regretted this choice. He was just a man after all; we all have failings, we all err and sin. Even the greatest saints in Christianity have all screwed up at one time or another. But if you look at the whole scope of the man and what he did, he is the closest thing I have seen to a Jesus figure in decades.