I don't think they deliberately fake anything. They have built their reputation on DEBUNKING hauntings primarily, and have almost singlehandedly caused a paradigm shift in paranormal research. All the orb chasers look like a bunch of idiots now because of them. I think the evps they catch are the most convincing of the phenomena they capture. I always perk up when they say they got something on audio. If anything, they probably misinterpret a few things, which is natural....not purposefully fake things. They probably film all their investigations, and for ratings sake, typically choose to air the ones that have some kind of evidence, along with a few that don't to mix it up.

Actually, I wasn't calling you out, and my comments were not directed at or explicitly in reference to you or your posts.
Please refrain from baiting or flaming in the future. I don't think it's necessary. IF I was replying directly to you, it would go like this:



I did read all the posts, and I am calm, thanks.



I wasn't referring to you talking about plumbing scenes. I never claimed you said anything about Brian. I didn't make it look like anything, I just didn't cut and paste specific replies to specific people. That's why I never used names or misquoted anyone. It was a reply to the thread in general. Hence, the absence of quotes.



I agree, I think he should clear it up too. I would hate to see GH wind up pure trash TV too, like the other shows you mentioned.



Again, I wasn't calling you or your team out. I just see two members of your team (that I know of) kind of drumming up some negativity.
I really didn't feel all that passionate.Maybe you saw exclamation marks where there were none.
You see Jason, this is a forum. I was exchanging ideas (and opinions) that are clearly my own. That's why I said:



Is all this a little more accurate?


Back atcha!

If you weren't calling me or my team out, why did you use words and phrases something like "groups here are being negative" and "Black Swamp guys" ?? What other conclusion could reasonably drawn from that? That's baiting, friend. I was just responding to you, remember.

And if you say you agree that TAPS and Sci Fi should clear it all up too, then what negativity are you complaining about? This is the exact argument I was making. How am I drumming up negativity when you agree with the very things I keep saying? Makes no sense...

And honestly, I don't think exclamation points = passion. I'm being passionate right now and throughout this thread. I don't need anything other than my words alone to express myself, usually. Heck, you have a quote from MLK on your profile here. Wouldn't you agree he was a pretty passionate orator? I don't believe he needed exclamation points in his speeches, or needed to scream to get his point across, do you? Passion isn't a bad thing, but it can certainly be expressed in ways outside of punctuation.

Anyway, I've said my piece. You've said yours, I guess. So yes, I accept your apology/explanation...I just don't think it completely makes sense or is entirely forthright. There is no ill will towards you. Peace be with you, brother.

Oh, and I dont want to litter the board with any more of this stuff if possible. If you, Eqgumby, or anyone else wants a personal reply or to discuss something more directly, please feel free to PM me. You'll find me quite friendly and open to that form of communication as well.

Thank you, friends!

This stuff is making my eyes bleed lol...I typed something out but it is no longer relevant

Haha yeah, but I kinda enjoy it at the same time. I wanted to make a thread that would get people talking and get an exchange of ideas going.

Because it seemed to me that you and another of your team members were being negative. That's why. Below are all quotes from you guys, not even all of them, but a sampling of two people from the same organization bashing another organization. Calling them liars, out-right frauds and fakes, questioning their integrity and motivations.

And when I question your motivations, you start on ME about my quote, and claim I make no sense.

Sorry, I saw you and your partners attack on the TAPS guys as negativity. And while agree that they and the show they are in are not perfect, I think it takes a lot of gall to claim they are frauds and lying about evidence outright.

What motivates YOU to call them out?

yes it is all staged , along with a script mixed with some ad lib
not to mention some really bad acting

Well, like I've said over and over and over throughout this thread...something weird is going on. I haven't flat out accused TAPS of being anything other than less analytical than is desirable for a team with over 15 years experience. I have the right to say that not as a person who investigates the paranormal, but as a fan of their show. I don't want to see it become like Paranormal State or Most Haunted because I respect TAPS way more than that. You yourself have said you also would like to see them respond to the inconsistencies. If you feel I'm rude by writing something on a message board which is based in fact, then I'm sorry.

I don't believe I have personally said TAPS themselves have faked anything. You keep making that accusation. You found a lot of quotes out of context, but I'm not seeing the one where I said TAPS fakes their evidence. I've said certain pieces of evidence were suspicious. More than likely, Pilgrim Films and Sci Fi would be responsible if evidence was indeed being faked. Which, again, I have not stated it is. But read over those quotes you found, you'll see I have not stated it is TAPS themselves, but likely the network or a contracted production company. That should be the end of your accusation that I am saying TAPS are fakers.

I know you keep saying you have read all my posts. I honestly just don't know if you understood them all. I can go ahead and take the blame for that, if you'd like. Maybe I wasn't clear enough or something, though I honestly felt I've been very clear. But you keep acting like I attacked you out of nowhere. Remember a few posts ago when you tried to tell me you never called me or my team out? That your post had nothing to do with me or my team? Now you basically admit to doing just that. Remember, I responded to YOU originally when YOU called me out.. It's not the other way around as much as you keep trying to make it sound like it is.

I'll say one other thing again...hopefully for the last time: I really and truly don't want to litter this thread anymore with back and forth stuff between you and I. That's why earlier today I posted on here that if you or anyone else wanted to discuss things personally and more directly, to simply PM me. I am very open to talking with you or anyone else through PM. Feel free to send me a message anytime. I'd be happy to hear from you. Other than you and I, this thread is slowly fading away. If interest in the topic isn't there anymore, I don't want to keep it around artificially by just responding to you or vice versa.

But anyway, you asked me what motivates me to call them out. I said it earlier: I'm a fan. I don't want the show, or TAPS' good name, to be degraded anymore. But for that to happen, they have to respond to the growing number of people who are beginning to question either them or the network. If they do not sometime soon, suspicion will remain. And that will be a true shame. Because a lot of people, myself included, still believe in them.

Again, thanks for your time and consideration. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.

So what you are trying to say is that if a friend and I see something wrong with the show and agree upon it, we can't say something about it? First of all this has nothing to do with our group, and to be perfectly fair there have been a couple posts way more rude than mine or Jason’s that I don’t even know, but you don’t feel the need to call them out by name. I don’t think I have been negative at all, I believe I have stated legitimate claims upon another ghost hunting group. Is that not allowed, what is it like Blasphemy to call out something I see wrong? Yet for the record once again for the 100th time I never said TAPS is faking anything I have said I believe it is the network, how much more clear can I get.

Wait, why are you guys arguing?

I think most people agree some of the evidence on Ghost Hunters is dubious.

And about 90% of people seem to think it's not directly TAPS' fault, rather the production company and Sci Fi.

What you are arguing now seems a bit more personal, and it's probably best kept private.

Less of the bickering.

you are right, so from now on if you want to continue to argue this point PM me.

Here is the problem with TAPS and Ghost Hunters.

They say they are scientifically doing science. They aren't.

J and Grant are not trained as scientists. I don't see any trained scientists on camera. So it's no surprise that TAPS's methods, procedures, and reasoning do not resemble those used in science.

If they were laypersons who were actually doing science, then they could say, "this is science." Their utter lack of credentials would open them to criticism, and their lack of training would make them error-prone. But at least they would be doing science.

They aren't. They are just ghost-hunting. Which is fine. Just don't tell people it's science.

The problem with an absence of scientific protocols is that it opens the way for all kinds of deception. It can take the form of observer bias, halo effect, sampling error, outright fraud, and more.

J and Grant might be the most honest guys on the planet, and they can and will still fool themselves. That is why scientific protocols exist.

And even if they are honest guys, how are we supposed to know that? Are we supposed to just believe them?

So their unscientific approach opens them to all kinds of criticism. Even impeccably-credentialed scientists who abide by exacting protocols have to deal with such criticism. But because of TAPS's methods, TAPS has no defense.

If they want to say, here are the adventures we have while hunting ghosts, then that's fine. But they call it science, and it isn't. They've doomed themselves.

I want to take them aside and say, look, you want plumbing done, you hire a plumber. You want science done, you hire a scientist. So hire a scientist and let him do the science. Otherwise, what we have here is an epic fail.

Best post on this thread, IMO. Agreed 100%.

Sorry guys, but what has been implied is that TAPS are liars and in it for the buck. Do I really need to dig again for quotes?
Sorry I dared to question a budding paranormal groups motivation in attacking the most famous group out there.
I won't defend myself, as I have done NOTHING other than ask a few questions of the ATTACKER. YOU called out TAPS essentially, and I asked why.


THIS quote clearly shows what you were HOPING to get.


THIS clearly shows you think at least some of their evidence is fraudulent.


THIS clearly shows you believe they are complicit and aware of the fraud.

When I ask why you believe this all I get is, "Come on...it's obvious" type responses. Stop attacking ME for questioning your opinion and motivations.

I don't think they've ever claimed to be scientists or to be doing science. What they do say is that they try and be scientific about their investigations. They try and be rational.

Why shouldn't the credibility of TAPS and shows like it be questioned? We (here on UM and anywhere in the field) often perform "peer review" of other groups within the study. Keeps us honest and we hold discussions to learn.

Check this out. Thwarting the Study by Withholding the Evidence...http://seminars.torontoghosts.org/blog/index.php?cat=19

Any group who decides to go into the spotlight is subject to peer review. Just the way it is. I applaud Jason and BSP for having the guts to attempt this, at the risk of offending those who perhaps revere TAPS. It is well known that the media loves to sex this type of stuff up. Why would TAPS be any different?

Why would anyone take it personally that Jason and BSP call into question TAPS (actually Ghost Hunters) and also the production company.

thank you.... thats what i am saying... i know this thread is long but some of these sentences are being taken out of context also. there was a lot of serious disscusion about this....we like taps. were just not comfortable with the evidence recently! it seems like ratings go up so does evidence.. we were saying it to be sci-fi letting it through or forcing it through for ratings..... lets like flip this and yall tell me what evidence that taps has found that without a question is beleived to be fact... i mean there was some interesting evidence. but without being able to look at the evidence it is not fact to me. then i think its still interpretation!

TAPS tries their very harest to go into their investigation with a skeptic mind and disprove the things they find. So to think they fake their evidence is just a silly thought. There's absolutely no reason for them to fake there evidence. besides I have seen times when they have found where people have messed with their evidence and TAPS caught it. If they were faking their evidence y would they bother to show that someone faked it if they were gonna fake it anyways.

Its not a silly thought. The pressure is on for these guys to supply evidence (this is a good reason!). If not faking, embellishing. Maybe more of you would be more comfortable with that word. Anyway, my point is, if these guys don't produce, their job is on the line. isn't that reason?

You said that people have messed with their evidence. WOW. What kind of a team do they have that people have done this. Furthermore, how do we know this wasn't planted to ensure that Grant and Jason look good? Honestly, if you believe everything you watch on TV...

So many people say it's not science. Yes, you cannot measure the things that they are investigating, yet anecdotal notes and records is scientific ... so can it be science??

I am sitting on one of the largest gravesites (at least in this small area) and one of the oldest pratically in the world. This whole area is basically "bewitched" and "paranormal" I really wish TAPS would come down here and debunk these things ... People here would laugh them off of the planet.

I mean look people who think they are so honest, they fabricate the stupid plumbing story. I don’t care to hear “that’s just a little white lie,” if they lie about that why couldn’t they lie, exaggerate or fabricate evidence? People seem to forget that this is television, it is not reality.

I agree BWP..Another thing I question. My son worked for Roto Rooter for 2 years, as a plumbers apprentice NOT a plumber, even though he had years of training.The only areas he had to have a licensed plumber along is if had to do with gas issues. Other than that he was on his own. They dont get paid weekly, they get paid by the job. Basically they can repair fixtures, snake out a line, repair broken pipes located anywhere,also hot water heaters etc. Rotor Rooter does not install new bathrooms or kitchen,or mess with gas. Last I knew, they would hire plumbers, but the payments are depending on the job. I wonder if they ARE licensed plumbers, because they dont make that much money. I would think if they were licensed, they would either start their own company, or work for a credible Commercial and residential Plumbing and Heating company. JN

I feel like replying to all this stuff publicly again, because I would once again dismantle your arguments. But I'm not going to. I've already responded several times to these same accusations. Ive asked you to help me in not littering the board with bickering by PM'ing me. You are obviously not going to do that since you've ignored that request twice now. I'm going to PM you instead.

Sorry everybody for the continuous back and forth stuff. I hope you'll still participate and enjoy the thread without all the nonsense.

Re-creating the plumbing sequences and creating or faking evidence are not even in the same league with eachother. I think pretty much everyone knows that they aren't plumbers anymore. Those scenes are pretty obviously being acted out (and quite poorly, I might add). They just use those scenes to carry the show along. They aren't trying to fool anyone. Using that as an excuse to say they are faking their evidence is just plain stupid. Come on, now. Just because it's on TV doesn not automatically make it 100% fake. I have no doubt that Sci-Fi may stretch out the reality of certain things they come across, but I have no reason to believe that TAPS would ever purposely decieve their audience or their clients.

I think the overall point of that post is just to say that "Reality TV" is not necessarily always reality. I don't believe he was saying that by faking the plumbing scenes they are faking evidence. I know he has stated before that if any evidence is tampered with, it would be the network doing it, not TAPS. There is no reason for name-calling here, Shakezulah. I am trying to keep this thread devoid of personal attacks or petty bickering as much as possible. Please be respectful.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

If you could directly quote me where I made any sort of disrespectful remark or personal attack in that post, that'd be great.

There.

Sorry, but I don't see how that relates to name calling or any sort of personal attack. Saying that because they fake the plumbing scenes gives them more of a possibility to fake their evidence is not a solid basis for coming to that conclusion...which makes it kind of stupid. I'm not calling anyone anything.

Okay, fine. But using that as an excuse for saying stupid is not being disrespectful is just plain stupid.

I would love to see what people think Jason Hawse meant by his statement "You see what Sci Fi wants you to see."

Whatever dude....it's not my fault if someone makes a weak argument. Someone's gotta call them out on it.



I think that pretty much sums up what most of this thread has been about. Could mean they are not showing everything TAPS finds, could mean that they are showing more or presenting things differently than how they were originally done. Probably both. I definately believe that TAPS has found a lot more than what Sci-Fi has showed us.

Huh. Stateing the truth is now negativity.

Or it could mean they show stuff that isn't paranormal and pass it off as paranormal.

I know, I felt your argument was weak, too. That's why I called you out on it. He was saying that just because something is "reality tv" doesn't make it all reality. That's all. Look up a few posts, I explained it.

Or things they THOUGHT were paranormal but later discovered weren't. If they re-analyze evidence and come to the conclusion that it's not paranormal before the final version of the episode is finished and aired, I highly doubt they would include it. TAPS would not straight up lie to their clients faces, especially since they are there to help people more than anything.

But wouldnt this still be decieving to clients and fans?

And even if they went back to the clients, it’s still deceitful to fans of the show, and if the network doesn’t want to address that, than like I have said all along IT’S THE NETWORK, NOT TAPS.

I can agree with this in principle. My argument would be that yes, we are all humans and make mistakes. Can't fault them for a simple mistake. However, with over 15 years experience, they have to cut down on the BIG mistakes, ya know? They should be even more analytical after all these years and not fall so easily for things like thermal reflections or what I feel have been marginal EVPs at times. Just my opinion, though.

How would it still be decieving if they discovered something AFTER the original airing of the show? They might not completely re-edit the episode, but they will say somewhere what the situation was. They have their own radio show, they do a lot of interviews, etc. And don't you think that they would contact their client again and tell them about it? They probably keep in touch with more of their clients than most people think, and re-investigate places a lot. Just because it doesn't show up on an episode or it is publicly announced by Sci-Fi or otherwise doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If I had my own show, here's what I would do:

If I passed off a piece of evidence in an earlier episode that I later found out to be explainable, on the next episode I would issue some kind of statement or otherwise take responsibility on the episode itself. Kind of like a newspaper printing a retraction. They don't announce they messed up on the radio, or on some blog somewhere. They have to do it in a following issue.

Bottom line, if I screw up its up to me to tell the viewers directly and in the same format as that which the mistake was made in. Especially with something like the paranormal. Heck, they should not only announce it on an episode, they should shout it from the rooftops. Misinformation in this field, especially from a group as respected as TAPS, has to be dealt with thoroughly and without apprehension.

Ok what I am saying is it is deceitful to the fans who believe they saw something paranormal when in fact it may not be. I’m talking about what we see on the show not what possibly could have happened after the really figured out what was going on. TAPS now has a responsibility to there fans as well as clients, if not why have a television show?

I was watching the last few newer episodes with my wife. She really isnt into the paranormal, but indulges me and watches the show with me...She has seen quite a few episodes and enjoys the show just as long as Brian isnt on...that is a different thread though...anyway... As we watched the last several episodes of this season she made the comment to me that she thought that it was odd how "lucky" they were to catch all of the evidence they did, one show after another, when for seasons it would be hit or miss on what they would find.

She doesnt follow these guys outside of the show itself, doesnt read any forums, no books, anything like that, but it just struck her as a bit too convenient that all of a sudden they come up with some of their best experiences time and time one show right after another.

I have never met the guys, from what I see, they seem honest enough so I doubt it is a case where they knowingly do something to mislead people, but it is hard to say. It would be tough to have a paranormal television show riding on your shoulders and millions of advertising dollars at stake, money can make people do things they would normally not do...and I find it doubtful that if they were to be fudging things a bit they would admit it to anyone else under any circumstances...buddies or not, no one is going to admit something of this caliber to someone else.

Like I said, I doubt they do...they seem honest enough, they have been able to find some interesting stuff lately and they have a television show and ratings to consider so they dont dig as deep as they would otherwise when it comes to debunking because that isnt where the ratings are. If they debunked 100% of their cases, they would be off the air pretty quickly...they need the evp's and photos and clips that make peoples hair stand up in order to stay on the air...

I would definitely agree...it is certainly a very fine line they have to walk.

Thing is, their entire seasons are edited and prepped for airing long before they even begin. Having a statement like it inserted into an already-finished episode would require for something to be taken out. You also seem to be ruling out the possibility that maybe they just don't find anything different about their evidence when they go over it again, thus still believing it may be paranormal. In fact, they question a lot of the evidence they find on the show. You know how much Jason and Grant don't like saying that a place is definately haunted. They usually still leave most things they find open for debate.



I don't know why you would consider that to be deceitful. If they find something they consider evidence, and then realize it's not during the actual investigation or the original analysis, and THEN still air it, then it would be deceitful, but this is not the case. There have been many times they have brought up evidence that I thought was pretty questionable. But just because they believe it may be paranormal doesn't mean I'm going to, as well. I always form my own opinions on what they find. They've found EVP's where they claim that there is breathing or a voice, yet I don't hear a damn thing no matter how many times I listen to it. I don't think of something like that as deception, but rather them maybe just hearing something I'm not.

I have to agree with your wife. All the sudden activity results in evidence. I also noticed that Jay does NOT say to clients anymore " We heard about your experiences and came here in order to disprove your claims." To me, that was very condescending and might have made it seem as tho he was saying the client was lying. I also agree with your wife when it comes to Brian. That guy irritates me so bad, I cannot begin to make a list. Also the drama in which he is involved with the rest of the team, is a waste of air time. Brian ALWAYS sees a shadow but they have yet to confirm it, and complains like a little girl. The one episode in the prison I think it was, they spent at least 5-8 minutes dodging bats, then sending others in there to experience the same, and scare them half to death. Then they wonder why they didnt get any evidence? They need to go to some REAL haunted places for a time, because they would be more likely to get valid evidence, as opposed to spending 5 hours in a family's home..JMO......JN

Why though? Either they start putting their heart and soul into this, and "maybe" spend more time at a location, and learn a new approach to get spirits to surface or they wont be on the air next year. I think, and have said all along, why not bring a psychic or medium in, simply to walk around and sense the high activity areas, and set up equipment, its worth a try. Spirits dont show up cause a bunch of people show up and use EMF detectors, or ask "did you die here?" They must realize too, that not all spirits know they are dead, so that blows that theory. Its easier to simply ask their name, tell them they need not be fearful, they just came to visit and do they have a message? But provoking and threatening i.e Brian, just makes a spirit hide and want nothing to do with them..Just my opinion..JN

The show shrinks on my schedule like water on a hot sidewalk. I agree with JN (regarding the provoking, and trying something new). The show is stale already. What happened to the fear element that gripped us when it premiered? I can almost see the scripted dialogue passing in their minds before they speak. And the dialogue itself is predictable. For petes sake...give me fright...give me night terrors...give me Hooters Girls or SOMETHING!

Nice to see you all. I'm in the middle of storm season. BBS. ~Jackal

Here's a solution: Maybe instead of the typical van ride while they talk over the case at the end of the episode...ya know, the one where Jay says, "On to the next..", they could instead insert a 30 sec. statement from Jay or Grant? Explaining that they were able to find an alternate explanation for something they deemed paranormal on the show. That would be easy, actually. And like I said, it would be like a newspaper printing a retraction. It's the responsible thing to do, quite frankly.

They spend more time at a location than they show on GH. They re-visit locations. As I mentioned before, just because it doesn't show up on the show doesn't mean it didn't happen. And they also use the methods that they know have worked for them in the past. Why should they have the prove themselves by forcefully doing something new when they already have an established fanbase because of their methods?



Because their approach to and investigation is scientific, not spiritual. And also maybe because most mediums are full of sh*t?



I don't get why you say this like you know exactly how all spirits think. I'm not saying you're wrong, because it obviously doesn't work in a lot of cases, but they have said themselves that it has proven to be an effective method, especially when dealing with what could possibly be a more malicious spirit. It's also mainly used as a last-resort sort of deal. I don't think they've ever done that immediately after starting the investigation.