A lot of religious people claim their beliefs are being bashed

When you take a closer look at it all and not just look at one side but lok at both sides for a change..you might find this...

Religious person – tells a non religious person that they are evil and will go to hell for not following their beliefs....WHY? because their holy book tells them this (so to speak)I do understand that the bible states much of this, but a lot of religious people will claim that some of the laws etc were only meant for man back in those ancient times...N/A to us in present day...if this is so, why pick and choose when it comes to throwing out judgement? Can you see how you would feel if the same was done to you?

A NON Religious person then speaks out with his/her beliefs..and explains that they believe that is wrong and insulting, and gets at them for suggesting it...telling them to back off
So then what? Well SOME wont like being told to take a hike and therefore will chant how their beliefs are being bashed!
Here is what others fail to notice....if you call sharing your belief a form of bashing, whether you are for or against it..bashing..then you could say the religious person is bashing the non religious person by condemning them with their beliefs

Point here is this...both religious and non religious are stating what they believe is right and wrong..so why do some people only see the one side being bashed?Why is it called bashing?....well condemning others is insulting regardless if it comes from a bible or not..in general regardless the topic...f and when you condemn someone and call them evil..and you get a rap on the mouth..you got the rap on the mouth for your insulting manor , for not taking the time to understand how it would be if the same condemning was aimed at yourself
IMO bashing a faith is – going out of your way to insult them..blast them and hurt them...but when you say you feel their beliefs are insulting, IMO that’s not bashing..thats simply stating how you feel and what you believe is right or wrong...boils right down to your OWN BELIEFS

NO ONE LIKES TO BE JUDGED...don't matter who you are or what faith you follow....so do you really treat others how you like to be treated?

So if you wish to call stating what you believe is right or wrong..then BOTH sides are bashing eachother

So true. Both sides do it though. Bunch of hypocrites. I personally have no problem with getting bashed, mocked, and insulted, because I do a lot of all three.

I have to agree BM, but it works both ways too.

Everyone is entitled to express their belief free of let or hinderance. Everyone is entitled to not listen, or to disagree. Well every sane adult anyway.
I have never really found any problems in this area, except for people who try to tell me that what i have experienced is physically impossible and thus i must be mistaken.

I think the real problem arises because peoples' beliefs influence how they want to act. In a large complex society it is necessary to establish rules which define how much freedom of action any human being has (this is usually related to the degree of harm those actions tend to do to others)

. No one likes to have their actions, based on what they think are correct beliefs, circumscribed. But in reality, the only other answers are; to become a hermit, live in a society of like minded individual,s or revert the law of the jungle to establish what is allowable.ie might is right.

Partly I think it is because religion is so important to somebody’s sense of self/esteem/worth/place in the world. There is naturally a deep emotionally attachment to seeing oneself as made in the image of the creator of existence. It is a large step down from being a spiritual being with a soul made of the creators essence to a part of the animal kingdom. Even if it is a wonderful part of a wonderful, complex interesting world - it just seems like an insult to some.

When it is a given that I am evil it just doesn't rock my world in quite the same way. It is irritating and crude, but what it is based on is so far from reality that it just normally seems silly.

But I agree everyone bashes and gets bashed, in fact we need more bashings not less

I agree with you. I am of a "if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen mentality". Of course, I do believe that one should do those things with an amount of maturity. To just yell and cuss at people...that is not debating....

I agree with you. People should give points for reasoning. Not to shout and scream.

everyone is entitled to their beliefs/opinions. no doubt . but when I'm or others are being treated as less than , not worthy of God as we are without someone else's idea of belief , or headed to some opinion of punishment for lack of believing as they do or in what they do -------- then they are going to hear it.

I don't believe in hell , satan , sin , jesus , the bible , the koran , or any other version of God that compartmentalized , but I don't tell anyone they are going to be punished , are less than , are not worthy of , will be kept out of or away from God because of how or what they believe.

now while I will call holy scripts man made , foolish , corrupt , fairy tales , contradictions , myopic , limited , outdated , wrong ( that's my opinion ) as well as cherry picked , ment and written for a culture/agenda long gone and not one bit of proof concerning God .( that is fact ) ................. I in no way think that will keep them from God. I just don't think it brings them any closer to God than anyone else.

If we were all neat and tidy and careful in our debates we wouldn't get the whole truth. too many say nicely they agree all paths lead to God , then you can find them different posts later when miffed saying the exact opposite for example.

it's like biting your tongue at Christmas dinner with a disfunctional family. it's a lie.

As Mandalore said it works both ways. Some people will cling to their right to attack others. I will cling to my right to tell them no one needs to be attacked in this modern era. Most of the attacking though is rarely about religion but about other social and cultural differences.

Anyone posting in this section should expect to be challenged about it .After all it is the Spirituality & Sceptism section not the Spirituality,religion and beliefs section ,the religious posters are out of their comfort zone here and it is those who usually complain but not always


fullywired

OMG

First time I noticed Beckys Mum has close to 20,000 posts

dont mean to bash how da ya do it?

I couldnt agree more. If someone doesnt share the same beliefs are someone else, why waste your time going out of your way to force feed your religious beliefs & judge others? People are very strange when it comes to defending or standing strong about their religion.

Great topic, Geri--I mean B.M.

Who among us can deny that they don't spend the majority of their time not just judging others and/or other's beliefs but judging everything? IMHO, in the sublime nature of human nature is the need to evaluate/assess (Judge!) everything, all (almost all) of the time. Isn't it in the 'way' we judge that is at the core of this thread?

-Michael

Absolutely...so why cry about it, it's obvious others wont all think along the same lines as you..but what people like to forget is..BOTH sides are expressing their beliefs

If a person wishes to believe in what a book tells them..fair enough...but why cry bash when someone else doesn't agree..after all the one who is not agreeing, is also expressing their own beliefs

both entitled...both bash...so what!

BM or Geri..it dont matter lol..Although so many call me becky..but thats my daughters name..lol

I agree with you...when you judge anyone and tell them something negative..and chant..well its my beliefs (as if that makes it ok)..dont take the time to stop and think - how would I act if the same was done on to myself?

I thought this was about real life and not the internet maybe I was wrong? Either way it works both way. There are those who bash others even if no one tells them they are going to hell they just have this incessant need to distribute negative energy and tear down others. But people telling others they are going to hell is never appreciated either. Both camps are haters IMHO and the world would just be better off ignoring them...in the real world not the forums.

It happens in real life but not as much as it would in line......in real life I have rarely heard anyone bash someone for being christian or vice versa

Because most people are sensible in real life. On the net people say things they would dare not in real life but this is something I would say IRL: Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics no matter who wins they are still r******ed.

Call me callous for saying such but it does take a bit of word play to differentiate between mental r******ation as defined by the DSM-IV and 'r******ed' as meant by popular culture. No offense to the former or the games but the picture is strikingly clear.

I'm gonna throw a monkey wrench.

I think there is a difference between a believer saying, "You deny god! You will go to hell!" and a non-believer saying, "Your beliefs are ludicrous fairy tales."

The first one means nothing to a non-believer. How can it possibly be construed as negative by the non-believer if hell and god are non-entities? Of course, its obnoxious when someone says that, but hardly damaging.

The second one is a negative statement about a part of another person's life which DOES mean something to them. How can it possibly be construed as a NON-attack since it is saying "something about you is flawed or stupid."

Yeah... they are both personal opinions, but one has a very negative affect on something someone holds dear to them. Why is it so important to harm another to try to make your point?

I think they are both pointed Purplos and neither needs to be said. Telling someone they are going to hell is clearly offensive even if the speaker is not intending such. True, intention, counts for much but they need to be educated on their use of tact. It is never wise to tell another they 'are going to hell'. On most occasions though it is the Christian who has to hear out in public others making derogatory comments towards their faith and believers. I have not seen many Christians condemning others to hell in the public sphere within the last two decades but I have seen plenty of people in public make offensive remarks towards Christianity and Christians. Toss in the internet and the media and this intolerance is amplified to even much greater levels.

This is why I don't pay attention to religion. I myself don't believe in most peoples god, I believe in a god and goddess. I'm wiccan and say so proudly. I don't care for religion because most of it in my opinion is wrong (as in they believe in the bible, but yet no proof and don't even obey so by it 100% like they say they do...).

Well Wiccan is a religion, maybe not organized, and most of it founded by Gardener's writings so it was invented and derived from books.





source

Yep.

Religion is often used as a catalyst but in the end I think it's the social and cultural differences that are really bothering people. For example, when a seriously religious person is going off about how society and people are heading away from God, I suspect that it isn't simply peoples Godless lives that this person is angry about. He must feel that his way of life is under attack and that if this goes on, his cultural and social standards will disappear; the standards that this person was brought up to view as good, moral, and best. I think it's harder for a non-believer to attack this way without feeling discriminative because they don't have God to invoke; but of course it certainly happens.

So the non-believer doesnt really have a leg to stand on..because it must be something they hold dear to them?? is that it?? ...........IMO what they hold dear to them is their own self- respect and they do know what is right and what is wrong...so when someone tells them - look here you are evil and going to hell because you regect my God....<---they may not believe in the hell, but everyone knows how hell is described, therefore it will come accross as not just arrogance but rude to many.....Its like being told the only place you as a person (regardless how loving and law abiding you are)...are only fit for a rotten horrible place <---thats rude...they dont care if it is rude, for they believe it doesnt apply to them..so that places them above others

Just because someone has a religious belif..doesn't give them a right to push negative comments to those who made different life choices....so many say - I have a personal relationship with Jesus / God...... I say then KEEP it that way...if you keep it that way, then you wont be in any trouble what so ever....

A christian would not like it done to them by other religious faiths..and they all believe that others faiths are ludicrous fairy tales...bunch of myths..nothing more...for if they didnt think that, then it is pointless just sticking to hte ONE faith..so its obvious they will be against the rest...........so why rant about non believers?? they have rights too...and if they find a belief that seems insulting and harsh..they have a right to say something in their own defence!!!!!!!!! and its not just non believers that say arrogant things...

hmmm i just can't get that worked up over it, why would one need me to beleive as them or else,then if i dont' break out the sticks and stones act.... ????? it really tells more about the believers concerns and fears and probably how they converted in the first place at least this is what i think.......i'd be extremely cautious and go on red flag status if one is judging me perosnally for not being as them..... oy vey...contrary to popular christian beleif we are not all worried about salvation and our souls or death .....the problem I see is that when you limit yourelf to "one line of thouhgt expression ' it may not be the most effective plan... it tends to make it a bit touchy for other pov's..........shrugs.

you have a great point regardless of whether ones religion has them prostelizing as part of the faith package one still may want to be respectful of others freedom of choice even though I understand they feel its good news all the fairy tale stuff santa coming down the chimney or heavenly cribs, what rocks ones world nessacarily doesn't rock anothers world..... ... Its seems to me anything other then agreement and conversion is very hard for a beleiver ...

Sheri you used to get worked up over it....and you didnt like it neither, and you backed up anyone that defended themselves

I'd dare say nearly everyone KNOWS what the faith is all about...but they do not need negative comments pushed in their faces...for when you do that and hide behind a book...then when you get bashed, you only have yourself to blame

If you sheri like to all of a sudden look at it from another way...fine..but at least look at it both ways...not just swing from branch to branch when the mood takes you...

How many have said - my relationship with God is so personal?? <---if it is..then the word personal does hold a meaning...why dont they just keep it like that?

And my comments I asure you are not baised..for I am both skeptic and believer...i call it having the ability of BOTH WORLDS


We all know they like to view it as good news for them...but they fail to see its a life choice..and it doesnt float everyones boat

Just in the same way other faith do not float their boat......which is why they stick to ONE faith...make sense?
Everyone knows what they believe right??...knowing it is one thing..as you can easily push it to the back of your mind..but whne someone pushes it in your face...then it does get ugly at times...

I agree Geri, don't get me wrong ....its a great point..a great argument and you make great points.....


I actaully wonder how many are really just seeking to convert and guising it in pretending to be open minded????? I think most .....

occassionaly we have a person who truly is looking to challenge themslelves but not many ....

Sheri..if you ever feel the need to challenge yourself..thats good, nothing wrong with it..but IMO when you do this, it makes sense to weigh up the pro's and cons...dont jump right in..think before you act!!

Example...I was raised in a christian enviorment...but i weighed up all the pros and cons...I saw what didnt make sense (even though it was taught to me and preached so often)....and saw so many flaws and thought...this cant be real

I as a person do not like to throw negative judgement on to others...I like to call my faith in God personal too (just like some christians do)...but I like to keep it that way to myself....I don't feel it is right to put others down all because they dont follow it my way..nor do I feel it is right to tell anyone they are doomed...how can I do this when no one has come back from the dead to confirm it?....is it my place to cast judgement like this??? NOPE.....which is why I chose not to be a part of a religion or a religious faith linked in any shape or form to a holy book..for when I do that, I am not making use of my own free mind, im letting others do it all for me...

What is the biggest put off in any faith??...Negative judgement ...imo thats it...

Here is what you should ask yourself....just how smart/strong am I? do I need a book to guide me, especially when it was written by just men and doesnt hold any evidence of anything from within it? or can I do this on my own? <-------------------you figure it out...I did LOL

You make good points until you began through implication casting negative judgment yourself on those who follow the Book.

HALT! Let me get this straight. You can express your view that you directly interact with god, but you have a problem with someone expressing their view that it is physically impossible and you are therefore mistaken?

Actually I said it works both ways, mandalore simply agreed with me.

very well said and as I have known you for a few years now and observed your behavior you have only been kind and gracious to others no matter what they beleived......


we can't really get away from judgments its part of reasoning it leads to conclusions but to intentionally telling another they are horrible or lacking goes beyond that and seeks to covert through harm...

its terrorism I know that is a harsh word but I couldn't think of anything else...

clovis,, Geri was saying she can't base her concluisons on a book that are written by men .. she has her own relationship with god she makes no bones aobut this ..........nor should she base anyhting on a book its a very valid move.. one would never just take the word of anything without serious critcal analysis including you based on posts I have read of yours.....

Nothing needs to be said. However, if people wish to say such things, it is their choice, not yours. People can also get offended if they wish, the problem with becoming offended, it often leads to retaliation, and then it is no longer merely their choice.

I would assume Mandalore disagreed with you for while you seemed to cling in to your right to bash others it appears nothing of the like was present in his statement. Of course it would take them to clarify the matter but looking at his statement and yours I agreed with theirs and not yours even if there is some similarity present among both.

Sorry clovis but I use the word BOOK because I dont mean one kind of book..I am talking about ALL of the holy books peopole use...I dont see the point in narrowing it all down to one book...if I truly felt that following a book that was written by someone you have never met, or heard much about, then IMO that is pointless...like I said IMO...

Do you really need a book to give you guidence?? if you feel you do, thats your OWN personal view....but frankly I like to live a good life with out a book of any kind..where is the harm in that?? I do have self confidence Clovis...I believe I can have a great life with my OWN efforts...keeping myself on the right side of the law..and doing what is best for me...I dont need a book to tell me this..im smart and strong..so I already know..and if I make mistakes..GOOD..then I am wise enough to see that I can learn from those mistakes..I never regret anything..

.so can you do me a fav and tell me why I need a book if I am already content and happy with how I live my life and make use of the mind God gave me?

In my own view for me - Following God MY WAY is the only way...and its MY ONLY WAY lol..I dont wish for anyone to copy...if you want to find inner peace ..do it yourself...as my mom always used to say - if you are big enough and ugly enough, then get up off your backside and do thing for yourself...

You do not need a book if you do not want one but to imply that those who follow books for religious or spiritual purposes somehow cannot:



...then you are sadly mistaken. You keep attempting to claim those who use books are somehow inferior for it and that is a very inflammatory view. Even if your point is not that but to merely say no one needs books well that is a more acceptable view as long as you do not attempt to black label those who do use books. Even if you claim you are following your own way you are still influenced by others be it through books, spoken words, or exchange of ideas. There really is no difference in the end. Even atheist who disbelieve in God are still using other people's beliefs positively or negatively to come to that conclusion. Positively in that their beliefs are introduced and reinforced by others and negatively because their belief is only in contrast to social and cultural awareness that there are those who do believe in God. In a society that did not believe in deities no one would be any kind of theist including atheist.

clovis, time out she is expressing her pov not bashing yours if you feel a book inspires you who is anyone to say otherwise where you are concerned.........for her she doesn't use the bible , she has cultivated her own personal relationship with god and they as a team deal with her life.....

you ccan just say hey for me the bible moves me but i can see how a sunset would for another... we are trying to get along on here embrace each others pov... not bash..okay....

I understand SS and even though she is not doing it intentionally I can see a thin veil of implication in her view that those who follow any books are somehow inferior. My other point is that everyone succumbs to an exchange of ideas in formulating their own views and in this sense regardless if someone comes to their own conclusions from science books, religious books, through point of views expressed through speech, or even a forum, or a combination of all the above those who use books for formulating a world view are really no different than others. I will not sit back without attempting to clarify those two points though but I will take a time out SS because obviously my intentions and my presentation are not being taken as one and the same.

just because you use a book to guide you. and you made a choice to do this clovis..that is not my problem..and so what if I feel more confident and strong enough to hold a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God on my OWN and NOT how others say I should.....<-----if you did this..tell me..would you feel as confident as I ..especially when you can see how happy you are with it all?

Answer me that

Now back to the judging..Clovis..when I speak about it on here, I am always talking about the negative rotten judgement...

.............SO..in no way have I told you. that you are DOOMED and OMG you are so going to suffer for following a book....I dont do this because I dont feel I can...I dont have proof..so why do it?

Just because I mentioned that I feel im smart enough and good enough to hold a persoanl relationship and be happy leading a good life WITHOUT A BOOK ANY BOOK...you are all of a sudden insulted <--------------clovis I hold a right to feel good and stress the reasons WHY I am the way I am...I havent really insulted you...and I wish you would quit trying to make it look as though I have

Why couldnt you just say..well BM following a book inspires me and I have a strong mind..and I do what feels right by me<<<<----------------------why couldnt you just say that??? instead of complaining and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

You and SS are right so I do apologize for my lack of tact...

...well BM following a book inspires me and I am confident I have a strong mind especially in that I can recognize many of my weaknesses though unfortunately not all..and I do what feels right by me.

i think that is a good call , perhaps its been overwhenling today on UM...


i want you to get along ...her and i have a resepct for each other and i am getting to know you and you are a really nice guy, intellegent and open, you try to be.. so I am simply trying to let you know Geri isn't inferring superiority at all.....

really she wants to get along and her biggest beef is anyone who thinks they are better which is the funny part( it seems its yours also) ...

The main thing here is YOU...how happy and content you are with your choices...right? I think so lol

you do what feels right by you...and if you are indeed happy..so be it...so why care what anyone else says about a book?...we all make choices...if we were all the same, this would be one boring world lol

You aint weak..nor are you dumb.......especially when you make the effort to understand others..thats called common sense...you show a lot of it...good for you

Who knows what the future holds, for all you know you might find something else that inspires you..hey it happens to the best of us


PS I am sorry for how my words came accross to you..it was hard to find the right way to word it all..especially using text on a screen...not easy....

AHEM...*clears throat ever so loudly*

LMAO @ her biggest beef LOL it is human nature to set the record straight when you feel you are being insulted....right? then I am no different than anyone else

and yes we do try and get along...its not easy..but hey at least we try

im going to wait on the rest that will come on much later and rant like hell - going all --> BM who do you think you are blah blah..and then I will sit back an laugh...one glance and WHAM..lets go on a weekly hunt BM spree LMAO

If they do, i'll just point at the other BM and say --> it was him, that's the BM you want...c-yaa!!

Why thank you..

you are 100% correct

No you dont have it quite straight. Ill try to clarify.

I do not mind people who tell me im lying (im not, but i can well understand that belief.)

I don't mind people who say. "Nothing like this has ever happened to me, and thus on the basis of my experience i think you are mistaken."
Thats a perfectly rational, logical position ,and one I held myself for over 20 years of my life.


What i cannot accept, and will not allow to go unchallenged, because it directly attacks my intelligence, perception, and in old fashioned terms, my sanity, are people who say. "What you have experienced is physically impossible (not "i believe it is physically imposible") just "it is impossible. "

From that statement they build a lot of other suppositions. However, the suppositins are only as strong as the "fact" they are basing them on.

...No one really knows what is, and what is not, physicallly possible in this universe'.
This makes their viewpoint a belief and a value judgement, at best, only equal to mine, yet they state it as indisputable fact.

When i state what happened to me, it is based on factual occurences. not hallucinations, not delusions , but real physical manifestations and psychic/paranormal episodes which are witnessed and can be verified by others.

I can not be absolutely sure of the causes, although over 35 years of these experiences, a lot of study and analysis has led me to one answer. It is possible that i am wrong in this, but it is simply not possible that many of these experiences are not real, objective occurences occuring in, and affecting, the solid materiality of the real world.

8 bits(if i understood him rightly) has posited another possibilty . ie that i have god like powers and without supernatural help can manifest material beings ,find lost objects, accurately read the future , read minds and travel to other places, accurately recording the conversations and landscape of what i see there. The nature of my personal experiences leads me not to accept this explanation.

Hope i have explained my pov. It is a complex one and not easy to appreciate unless you ever find yourself in the same position.

See what you did there?

Personally I see people who claim to have conversations and such with god to not be scitzofrenic or deluded, or it would be unlikely that I would present them like that in a debate, but I would not be able to justify for myself to take their claims serious neither. So I look at you guys as romantic people, its usually in your "hearts" you have these interactions with god and with my limited knowledge of anatomy I am 99% sure the heart doesn't have means of transmitting or recieving information the way I saw it described

Context matters. In the other thread, we are discussing where god stories came from.

The term god like, then, means what somebody might estimate to be outside the scope of natural human abilities, whether it really is or not. You do believe that about your own powers, and so I am comfortable with using the term in that thread, and did just that.

But you and I have had many discussions in many threads. As you know, I do not share your view that what you have experienced is outside the natural scope of human cognition.

For example, you seem to hold that to "foretell the future" must involve some sort of preternatural excursion through time. In contrast, I believe that people routinely manage to foresee things, e.g. the collapse of the American dollar, based on their understanding of general and reliable regularities in the course of events, e.g. that artificially low interest rates will reduce the attractiveness of any currency.

The point here and now is not which of us is right, but how much of the quoted block above recounts my views, and how much yours. It is a mix of the two. Your hedge is noted and appreciated, of course.

lmao -- you have done the same to others that don't believe in your book , including me , in soooooooo many posts it's not funny , yet your reading that into her post ? a post in which you cherry picked right after reading it to make it seem as though she was talking about you when she was talking about herself ( you picked it up the word great .......... and plastered this to mean she was directing that at you when she was clearly speaking for herself . the world does not revolve around you Clovis. neither does God any less that God revolves around anyone else and vice versa.)

"Do you really need a book to give you guidence?? if you feel you do, thats your OWN personal view....but frankly I like to live a good life with out a book of any kind..where is the harm in that?? I do have self confidence Clovis...I believe I can have a great life with my OWN efforts...keeping myself on the right side of the law..and doing what is best for me...I dont need a book to tell me this..im smart and strong..so I already know..and if I make mistakes..GOOD..then I am wise enough to see that I can learn from those mistakes..I never regret anything.."

- yes we all come to our conclusions , conscience or not , via a multitude of sources ( including inspiration) . Just as the bible or any holy text itself was written not in a vacuum but influenced by cultural , political and other religious attitudes and beliefs. no different than any other book or opinion.

This is an excellent point and it does seem dubious some claim we are using bias while they turn around and do the same thing to state what is fact and not.



While you offered some mundane examples to support this in and of itself it is a strong idea and one that is respectful and inclusive of others but not for the mere sake of being inclusive but because you have recognized something else is at work which others are quick to say does not exist as if it were fact. The mind is powerful that much is certain and it alone could account for many things.