In the bible it tells that God created all, the bringer forth of all life. It tells how first he created all the heavens and angels, etc… Then the galaxies, and so on and so forth…

Satan then rebelled, and was thrown out of heaven when he went in opposition to God.

My point is; it is said God knows everything, everything that will happen and come to pass. So God knew that Satan would turn out the way he did, and do the things he has done. So in a sense that makes God responsible for the suffering that Satan has caused! If he knew one of his creation would become what he did, then why did he make him?

*aupplads* yay someone finally ses this

It does IF satan exists...then I'd say you have made an excellent point

But IMO there is no such thing as Satan..the religious people need satan..to use as a scare tatic...plain and simple!!!

About three-quarters of the users on this forum make this point daily...the rest state how Satan, as we were, were created with free will, and that wickedness, is just a byproduct of free will.

Because it's quite a good one.

People still remain confused. Even if they mention the Jewish belief that Satan was created by God to do what he does they fail to mention that the Jewish belief does not view Satan as some wicked being either. The problem arises when one is unable to truly appreciate the Jewish thought regarding this and mixes it up with the Christian notion that Satan is wickedness when the Jewish only believe he is a prosecutor and not the bandit chief of the rogue elements of vice. This the Jewish say is Zoroastrian Persian Dualism which is not something they subscribe to so at the same time they claim God created Satan to be as is and carry out his work they do not subscribe to Satan as being the epitome of evil as we do in the West.

So in conclusion those stating God created Satan and thus God is wicked are not following Jewish thought but misrepresenting it for their own agenda do bash the God of the Bible.

But your God is supposed to be omniscient....So...If he created Satan and had no idea that he would be drawn to wickedness...that wouldn't be very omniscient of him, would it???

That is a way if simplifying things but again one has to look into both Christian and Jewish definition of Satan. Clearly your view falls out of both sets if you are implying God created a wicked Satan and it a third view not accepted by either Christians or Jews.

actually, its because satan was banished to hell is why he caused all the suffering

I find it funny when I hear people say - Satan works for God LOL.........an evil spirit who hates God, is dead against God..yet will punish you if you deny God??????? only a mug would do this LMAO

It's interesting how so many people feel this way. When a farmer plants a field, he preps the ground. He plants the seed he wants to grow there. There is a parable that shows that this is how God sometimes views things. When the field was full grown the servants pointed out that there were weeds in the field. They asked the farmer where the weeds came from. He replied, "An enemy has done this." They asked, "Do you want us to go and rip up the weeds?" The farmer said no, in case the crop is damaged while you're doing it. Wait till the end then we'll separate them.

Superman has x-ray vision. Anytime he wants to, he can see through walls. Does he see through walls all the time? No. He has to activate his xray vision in order to use that power. Maybe God is like that. Just because he is capable of foresight doesn't mean that he constantly engages it. Think of it like this....everyone has free will. If God chose to, he could see every choice. Just because he could see the choices doesn't mean that he alters a persons right to choose. But what if he could? Would he cause observer error? Maybe he chooses to limit himself in this way so as not to effect the outcome.

If you were the omniscient omnipotent Almighty God, you would have the entire planet under your jurisdiction. Your God, according to your belief system, is supposed to be a loving one, who cares about all his people (except the ones who don't believe in him; those ones apparently nobody can agree about). He cares about all of his creations, but most of all the ones that he created in his own image. Correct me if I'm wrong about some of this; it's been quite a while (relative to the span of my life) since my belief system even remotely resembled something monotheistic.

So. You are this all-powerful, all-loving Creator Of All Things. Wouldn't you be looking out for those creations? It's not like there's any limit to your power or attention span or anything like that. If you loved all of your creations, you would want them all to live happy lives, and then be able to grant them access to the Supreme Happy Place In The Sky, which you also created, after they died, right? You wouldn't want to do anything that would cause even some of them to have to go to a Constantly-On-Fire Miserable Place Of Anguish (which you also created at some point), would you?

So if you were going to create something that would significantly affect your creations, especially the ones who worship you, and who you created in your own image, wouldn't you be sure to really examine that new creation? Wouldn't you want to make sure it wouldn't, say, declare war on you and create a following among your highest servants and also spread their influence to the beings you created in your image? You already decided long ago that if something like that were to happen, you would banish everyone and everything associated with that little rebellion to that Constantly-On-Fire Miserable Place Of Anguish. Oh, and for all eternity, even. So in being the "All-loving" creator that you are (and assuming that isn't already a contradiction), would you want to have to subject your favorite creations (those crazy little creatures you made in your own image) to that sort of painful (and ETERNAL) ordeal??? I know I wouldn't. I'd be looking out like crazy for them. And if I was Omnipotent and Omniscient, you better believe there's nothing I wouldn't do to make sure things went well for them.


The farmer analogy is ill-suited. The farmer has incredible limits to what he can do to his crops. But God has no limits on what he can do to his creations. He can destroy ALL of them except two of every type if he wants (like the biblical story of Noah I'm sure you are familiar with), he can pick a specific person who has an illness or physical dysfunction etc, and cure that person for the rest of his life, and he can do anything in between (or further in either direction).

The analogy to a superhero is just as ill-suited. Superman wouldn't want to see in "x-ray vision" at all times because he uses it when he needs it. This is obviously not at every moment. God would not use one specific "power" at EVERY moment either, and no one is really expecting him to. But every time he makes a decision, if he has such an incredible tool (such as the ones we are discussing) at his disposal, it would be in the best interests of EVERYTHING that he created, if he would use such a power. God obviously would know this - he is all-knowing, after all. Besides, it's not like he has limits to how much he can use a certain power or something like that. God is not a character in some video game who runs around casting spells. He doesn't run out of mana or anything like that - he's freaking all-powerful.

1. This Satan story is nowhere in the Bible.

2. You start this thread with a dualist presumption that Satan and God are on opposite sides.

I understand your points. Of course I'm not going to agree that the analogies are ill-suited. I think that there is much that we don't understand. I have questions too. Like, why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in a place where we could get to it if it were dangerous. And yes, every loving parent is going to watch out for their children to the best of their abilities. I look at it like this. If we as parents are capable of loving and caring for our children, then the supreme God is much more capable and loving than we. So, if there seems to be a contradiction to that, then it seems to me that it is because of our limited understanding. Sometimes I find good explanations for my issues quickly, and other times it takes a long time. There are still some things that I don't understand, but it doesn't take away from my faith in the Lord. There is a cause, a reason, and I just don't know it yet.

Here's one idea that I have kicked around that addresses that issue. People say that God is perfect and it is expected of him to be that way. What if in the beginning of all creation everything was perfect and in perfect balance as it should be. Then something happend, say the fall of lucifer (which is in the bible by the way) that screwed things up. It is said that 1/3 of heaven fell in this rebellion. So one third of the creation was now out of balance. Like a rapidly spinning wheel, or turbine, at high speeds, a slight imbalance will cause complete disintegration. What if the 1/3 of heaven that was decieved and corrupted has something to do with our very existence? What if we humans are the 1/3 replacement to perfect balance? What if we somehow ARE the one-third that fell and this life is our chance to return to our Creator?

Why would God create a world with only goodness in it? what then would be our motivation to work toward heaven if we already had it? We would never invent new things, or strive to reach the stars. It would be a dull and stagnant place with no hope (to hope is to believe in a better future, but life would already be as good as it can get) We need things like struggling and suffering to help us grow and become smarter or stronger. You need the good with the bad, you need balance. Therefore God created this for us, he wanted us to have a purpose, and working against evil is our job, albeit an ultimately moot one.

How would you know what Good was , unless you had seen or experienced Bad too, something to compare and Gives one a choice.
Hope that's not too simple, but it is true, Evil plays its part for God unbeknownst to Those who participate in it.

Love Omnaka

You should be more scared of the creations not mentioned in the bible, like asteroids, comets, supernovae, black holes and gamma ray bursts, than some old catholic boogeyman.

Satan then rebelled, and was thrown out of heaven when he went in opposition to God.

Revelation 12:9 (Whole Chapter)
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.




John 8:44 (Whole Chapter)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Ephesians 6:11 (Whole Chapter)
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.

1 Timothy 3:6 (Whole Chapter)
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

2 Corinthians 11:14 (Whole Chapter)
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

1 John 3:8 (Whole Chapter)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. (Sounds like God doesn't like him to me!)

Matthew 4:10 (Whole Chapter)
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' [ Deut. 6:13] "

Romans 16:20 (Whole Chapter)
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. (Not something you do to a friend?)

I spent many years researching the bible for one of my books... and this sounds like God is in opposition to Satan the Devil. May just be my take on it!

There is actually very little in the Old Testament to support the idea of Satan as a rebellious angel and the power opposing God. He is generally depicted as a heavenly attorney general (accuser) functioning under God, and this only strengthens the argument for not reading Satan into the passage about Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12. Isaiah is one of the older books in the Bible and is definitely pre-exile.

If there is no sound biblical basis for associating Lucifer with Satan, where then does the story come from that he is a rebellious angel and fell because of pride? The Christian Church made the interpretation that Isaiah 14:12 is connected with Luke 10:18: "He said to them, I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning." This unfounded, non-biblical connection of Lucifer with Satan has led to the popular misunderstanding that Lucifer is another name for the Devil (cf. "Lucifer," Harper's Bible Dictionary, Paul Achtemeier, gen. ed., Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1985).

As Lucifer is the morning star, daystar, or Venus, the absurdity of connecting him with the Devil is revealed in the three New Testament passages where morning star or daystar is mentioned:

So we have the prophetic message more fully confirmed. You will do well to be attentive to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. -- 2 Peter 1:19

. . . from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star. -- Revelation 2:28

It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star. -- Revelation 2 2:16

All three references to the morning star point to Jesus or things Jesus says or gives. In the Vulgate the word "morning star" in 2 Peter is even translated as lucifer. In the other two references it is stella matutina.

It is puzzling that "lightning" should be used in relation to Satan in Luke 10:18, especially when one considers two other references to lightning in the New Testament: Matthew 24:27 and Luke 17:24. These two references connect lightning with the Son of Man or Jesus and his second coming, which is understandable when one studies ancient religious symbolism: "In Judeo-Christian thought lightning is a symbol of God's immediate presence . . . or of the last Judgment" ("Lightning," Dictionary of Symbolism, Hans Biedermann, Penguin Books, New York, 1992). Even when we put aside the question of what God's "opponent" should be called, the fact remains that the story of a rebellious angel who fell because of pride is not in the Bible at all. Some claim that the fallen Satan is present from the very beginning, even though his name does not appear in Genesis. Paul suggested that the serpent was Satan, the implication being that Satan tempted Adam. Yet most of the early Church Fathers believed that Satan fell after Adam. It took the Church over 200 years to establish that Satan's sin was pride, that he fell before the creation of man, and that he was the serpent that tempted Adam and Eve.

To find the story of the fall of Satan, we must go to sources other than the Bible. There was a great deal of literature produced roughly between 200 BC and 150 AD, including the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha. Some of these are apocalyptic -- they prophesy cataclysmic events and the end of the world. In this literature one can see the development of the idea of an evil spirit, but even in the apocalyptic literature the Devil does not become entirely evil in his origin and essence. Many of the books from this period reflect the misery of the Jewish people under the oppression of Syria and Rome. Their writings deal with visions of the end of the world, the world being in the power of the Devil, and the Messiah conquering the Devil and bringing a new era of justice. The Book of Enoch is seen by many as one of the earliest and most important accounts of the mishaps of the Heavenly Court (of angels). It also describes the rebellion of the angel Satanail, and his being hurled from heaven (2 Enoch, ch. 29, long MSS only). Some scholars take this to mean that the amalgamation of Satan and Lucifer goes back to the first century. A redating of 2 Enoch, however, puts it later than the third century, perhaps even in the seventh. For this reason others suggest that Origen (Exhort. 18) was probably the inventor of the identification of Lucifer with Satan (Satan: The Early Christian Tradition, Jeffrey Burton Russell, Cornell University Press, Ithaca, 1991, p. 130 & fn). The Life of Adam and Eve (Vita), a Jewish scripture that scholars date between 200 BC and 200 AD, relates that Satan tells Adam and Eve that his fall from heaven is the result of his refusal to worship Adam, the image of God. A similar account is also found in the Koran (S 2:34). These legends reflect a theme close to the primordial "pride" that led to the so-called fall of Satan.

Since the Old Testament does not connect pride or the Fall with Satan, the Devil, or the Adversary, the only scriptural "support" for this notion is the misinterpretation of the fall of Lucifer (the king of Babylon), and certain passages in the New Testament. But the New Testament does not give any clear information on the fall of Satan through pride either. One place where Lucifer is connected with pride is in Milton's Paradise Lost. He "applied the name to the demon of sinful pride" ("Lucifer," A Dictionary of Angels, Gustav Davidson, The Free Press, New York, 1967).

It appears that the whole story of Lucifer as Satan, the fallen rebellious angel, is based entirely on non-canonical sources: the so-called Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. There are also many pre-Christian myths and allegories that include stories about Lucifer, which is the Latin name for the Greek Eosphoros. In his Theogony Hesiod speaks of two divine beings, the brothers Eosphoros (the morning star) and Hesperos (the evening star). They are the children of Astraios (the starry heaven) and Eos (the dawn). The morning star, like the Virgin of the Sea, is one of the titles given to Divine Mother goddesses such as the Roman Venus, the Phoenician Astarte, the Jewish Ashtoreth, and the later Christian Holy Virgin. In the oldest Zoroastrian allegories, Mithra is supposed to have conquered the planet Venus. In the Christian tradition, Michael defeats Lucifer.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/...st/xt-ibel2.htm

the reference in the bible to satan means nothing more than man. the ego. the lower vibrating flesh world. satan is a metaphor. just like god the father is, god isnt man or a being either. man lowered their vibration and 'fell' from heaven.

we live in this world to learn, if there isnt two sides to the story there is no such thing as choice and no basis to grow from or towards.

our interpritation holds the flaw nothing else.

yes and those are really scary !!

Sorry, I didn't know you were a Christian. In any case, the story is not mentioned in the OT and the detail with which it is known is not mentioned anywhere in the NT.

Sorry if I gave the impression of being a Christian, I'm not, far from it. I just found this question interesting. I know all scriptures are open to interpretations, and some sections are classed as fact, some stories, depending on who you ask. Just thought I would asked the question and see what everyone thinks. Personally I believe everyones right in their own interpretations.

I just thought that I would point out that this entire post is completely false. If you want to believe this, you should avoid Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 for starters.

From what I have read, both Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 don't actually have anything to do with Satan. They look more like prophecies against certain kings to me.
Here are some links to the verses:
Ezekiel 28
Isaiah 14
Both are New International Version translations, by the way.

Anyways, continuing on, Ezekiel 28 is clearly a prophecy against both the King of Tyre and Sidon:


The beginning of Ezekiel 28 is clearly addressed to the King of Tyre. However, I understand where you might think the Satan thing comes in. Here we have Ezekiel 28:13-17

However, Ezekiel 28:11-12 again reminds us that this is addressed to the King of Tyre.

This of course coming right before verses 13-17, which might sound like references to the fall of Lucifer, but they aren't. The entire chapter is a warning to first the King of Tyre and then to Sidon, neither of which, of course, are Satan. Last I checked anyways.

Anyways, continuing on to Isaiah 14, the most commonly referred to OT verse talking about Satan. This is, of course, Isaiah 14:12.

Sounds an awful lot like Satan, right? Unfortunately, this is again taken out of context. If you read Isaiah 14:3, you will see why.

See, Isaiah 14, just like Ezekiel 28, is not actually about the fall of Lucifer, but is rather about actual human Kings.

Lucifer as every spirit talked about in the bible has been down incarnate as a human, many more than once, reincarnation is true.

It is understandable if many don;t believe This or know this.

Love Omnaka

My ma used to always tell us when we were kids...its not the boogey man you should fear..nor should you fear ghosts....its the living you need to fear..they are the ones that can harm you....

I have had my home broken into...I still lay awake in the fear of someone breaking in and harming us. <--that scares me more so than any spirit...for that is not just personal experience, it is an experience that others can wittness in reality unlike religion

So you're saying that the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre were the human incarnations of Satan?
I see no reason to believe that.

Lucifer and Satan are not the same entity, Lucifer could very well have been the king of tyre.

I'll let you know when I find out.

Love Omnaka

I'm pretty sure, at least by the Judeo-Christian theology, that Satan and Lucifer are the same person. Not that I actually believe that either are real entities.

Yeah we NEED the good with the bad............we need mother's babies to be raped and ripped up , we need animals to be tortured, we need brain injuries so that peoples bodies turn into living coffins

So how does the raping of babies make us stronger and smarter ? I'm awaiting your answer.

A loving god/parent would never allow this.

I can understand that you can learn through bad experience, BUT god is just a little bit too generous with the free will/suffering/neglect candy.

Don't ya think ?

Because humans can not truly grasp the concept of love and pleasures of life without understanding of sin. God contains both concepts, but since he's infinitely intelligent, it's against his nature to do such evil.

For every baby that is raped or killed, a new one is born or adopted into a loving family.

For every animal killed or tortured one is saved through conservation efforts.

Medical science is helping to make better lives every day.

For all these evils, there have been people to work against it. And in an all "good" world, none of those things would exist for we would have never had need of them.

What exactly does intelligence have to do with evil? Joseph Stalin was a fairly intelligent individual, and we all know the horridly large numbers of people he killed.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin...78.E2.80.931899 )

"At the age of 10, Stalin began his education at the Gori Church School. His peers were mostly the sons of affluent priests, officials, and merchants. He and most of his classmates at Gori were Georgians and spoke mostly Georgian. However, at school they were forced to speak Russian (this was the policy of Tsar Alexander III). Their Russian teachers mocked the accents of their Georgian students, and regarded their language and culture as inferior. Nevertheless, he earned the respect and admiration of his teachers by being the best student in the class, earning top marks across the board. He developed a passion for learning that would stay with him for the rest of his life. He became a very good choir singer, and was often hired to sing at weddings. He also began to write poetry, something he would become very talented at in later years.[11]
Stalin's father Beso, who had always wanted the boy to be trained as a cobbler rather than be educated, was infuriated when he was accepted into the school. In his anger he smashed the windows of the local tavern, and later attacked the town police chief. Out of compassion for Stalin's mother, the police chief did not arrest Beso, but ordered him to leave town. Beso moved to Tbilisi where he found work in a shoe factory, leaving his family behind in Gori.[11]
...
He graduated first in his class and in 1894, at the age of 16, he enrolled at the Georgian Orthodox Seminary of Tiflis (Tbilisi, Georgia), to which he had been awarded a scholarship. The teachers at Tiflis Seminary were even more determined to impose Russian language and culture on the Georgian students.[11] Like many of his comrades, young Stalin reacted by being drawn to Georgian patriotism. During this time he gained fame as a poet; his poems were published in several local newspapers. However, his interest for poetry began to fade as he was drawn to rebellion and revolution.
During his time at the seminary, he along with numerous other students would read forbidden literature that included Victor Hugo novels and revolutionary (including Marxist) literature. He was caught and punished numerous times for this. One teacher in particular - Father Abashidze, whom Stalin nicknamed "the Black Spot" - intensely harassed the rebel students through student informers, nightly patrols and surprise dormitory raids. This personal experience of "surveillance, spying, invasion of inner life, violation of feelings", in Stalin's own words, influenced the design of his future terror state.[11] He became an atheist in his first year.[11] He insisted his peers call him "Koba", after the Robin Hood-like protagonist of the novel The Patricide by Alexander Kazbegi; he would continue to use this pseudonym as a revolutionary. In August 1898, he joined the Russian Social-Democratic Workers Party (from which the Bolsheviks would later form).
Shortly before the final exams, the Seminary abruptly raised school fees. Unable to pay, Stalin quit the seminary in 1899 and missed his exams, for which he was officially expelled.[11] Twenty of his fellow-classmates were expelled for revolutionary activities in 1899, and forty more would be expelled in 1901.[12] Shortly after leaving school, he discovered the writings of Vladimir Lenin and decided to become a revolutionary."

And what of the current US president, Bush? He's a Yale graduate, which is the 3rd ranked school in the nation, and he's demonstrated that he has incredibly poor decision making skills. When 9-11 happened most of the European countries advised us NOT to fight back against the Middle East and thought we were not ready for such a conflict, but did we listen? No. Proud America sought revenge and entered into the Iraq conflict (no, it's not technically a "war" even though we like to call it that) and now look where we are. Gas prices are through the roof, thousands of Americans have died overseas, and what have we accomplished? Not a lot. Okay, we caught Saddam and made Iraq into a democracy. Whoop dee do. Yes, the death of Saddam helped Iraq, but has creating a democratic government helped them? Not much. The US constantly is running about converting everyone into republic democracies. We need to just chill and let people do what they want. We're not the global babysitters and we really need to stop brown-nosing in everyone else's problems. All we're teaching them to do is depend on us when they're in trouble, which isn't a good position to be putting yourself in. All-in-all, Bush's decision to engage in conflict hasn't helped the US much at all and has just created more tension between the American people and their government, as well as the United States and the Middle East. Yes, some people from the Middle east will say that we have liberated them beyond measure, but we have to look beyond simple short-sighted goals of personal freedom to what would be best for the country, and perhaps the world, as a whole. Not to say that people shouldn't have freedoms, but we should not go about dismantling other country's governments simply because we feel that ours is "the best" form. Okay, enough of my "Bush-is-crazy" rant. Seriously though, the guy can't even speak proper English... Heck, I speak better than he does... Intelligence does not equate to "goodness" or "benevolence". Sure, God may know everything, but that doesn't mean by any chance that he's "obligated" to be nice.

(Sorry if I sound snippy here, but simply going by "God is God so he must be good" logic just doesn't float my boat. God created Satan, and Satan is evil, so therefore God creates evil and has a concept of evil, therefore, in order to be both good, God must be evil as well or else he wouldn't be anything at all.)

Ohhh so thats makes it OK then does it??

Will the parent of the child that was brutally raped and killed...feel better knowing that??

God must be that weak if he has humans making up ecuses and sugar coating all that he allows to go wrong

I am in NO WAY condoning such things. I hate evil just as much as anyone else. All i'm saying is that evil and good can only exist together, without one you don't have the other.
And as far as why God made things this way? I don't know, and I'm not going to waste my time with wishing for a different existence. We should only worry about how the world IS, and deal with it accordingly.

How do we deal with these issues if one cannot exist without the other? Isn't it pointless to try and stop evil if by its existence we have good?

I see evil as being destructive, so trying to stop it makes sense on many levels. As far as dealing with it, that is what faith and religion are for I suppose, there are many to choose from so take your pick

That is what it appears on the surface, but there is more to it. The scriptures refer to the principalities and powers behind those kings.

I've heard it said that Satan himself would love nothing more than for people not even believe he exists. He probably applauds this thread. He is not called the great deceiver for no reason. He knows people quite well and he knows how to pull the strings. Remember, one that is deceived thinks that they are correct when in fact they have been intentionally misled.

I agree with that. It's sad to fear fellow humans more than anything else in the world, but I believe humans can cause more destruction than anything else. ...I don't even fear meteorites or anything like that as much. Sure natural disasters are just as unpredictable, but it's not caused by rage or hate or anger, or simply desire, like human wrongdoings are. ...Unless of course you believe that a vengeful God creates natural disasters. ;P

As far as God creating Satan, etc., etc., I do believe that God created Satan. And He must have done so knowingly. But perhaps God created us with free will, although already knowing our ultimate fate... but will not interfere, because what then would be the point of testing us, or teaching us our lesson? It's like a teacher interfering with a student's homework and doing it for them. Maybe God is here to guide us... sort of... :\, but He's not allowed to step in and show us which direction to take. Just give us subtle hints here and there maybe. ...Meanwhile, Satan is the little bully, or class cheater, who's trying to push you down the wrong path. Or get you in trouble with the teacher/God. ;P

Well, ok then, thats your interpretation of those books and chapters.


The same could be said of you Yetihunter Who is being deceived and who is not?

GOD.... Satan is such a BADASS!!!

Because evil is said to be foolishness deceived by those who are evil and God who is infinitely intelligent would not ever go against that nature. Joseph Stalin probably wasn't intelligent enough in the right mind. He's nothing compared to God.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread

The story of moses ...God did a hell of a lot to HELP him and his people out...a lot died due to it just to help moses..............but an innocent child that NEEDS his help he turns his back??

Now when you say you dont know you dont know why <---I too was the same...but im sick of always wondering WHY WHY WHY...the only real answers you wll ever get is the ones you find yourself...

sorry double post

If you happen to worship the biblical god "Jehovah", then you will realize (according to the bible) that he is the cruelest of all.

How many people did Satan kill (according to the bible) again ?

Satan doesn't have to kill if he can get man to do it themselves.

Im pretty sure God gets his followers to kill too. Ex: when he commands the Levites to slay those who worship the Golden Calf.

yet god in the bible killed a lot...and got man to do it for him too...hmmmmm

satan did not kill or hurt anyone..satan IMO is a tool used to try and scare people into following god

There sure are some elaborate and creative ideas/excuses out there concerning Satan and the existence of evil.


God allows apparently pointless suffering for some reason that we can't comprehend.

When a fawn burns to death in a forest fire and no human being ever knows about it, this apparently "unnecessary evil" neither preserves human free will nor does it build the character of human beings.

If evil didn't exist in the first place then we wouldn't have to enjoy these "painful lessons"in the first place.

For instance let's say that you had ALL the power to stop an unsupervised child from drowning, but of course you will do nothing, because you want to teach that neglectful jerk of a parent with free will a good lesson.