In context -- as a child "I knew" about the tooth fairy, et al.

As adults, most people "know" childish fables about heaven and hell.

Now, that is a far cry from reality, is it not?
Karlis

Well you make your own choice and if you wish to believe in god being a carrot, so be it..

I dont need a book to tell me so..I already have God to tell me and I consider myself strong and smart enough to follow God my way

How did you arrive at knowing God, B's Mom?
And a question that automatically follows -- how come you know how to follow God in your own way?

Regards,
Karlis

God came to me...and like many it was personal experience....

I consider myself smart enough to listen to God...God gave me the knowledge and the strength to go my own way........it came naturally to me...god does speak to me

Keep asking questions Karlis...make up a questionnaire if you like lol ..I dont mind...but dont expect me to talk about personal experiences with you, for it is none of your business please understand

Now you are really confusing me, B's Mom:
You write that you do not mind if I ask you some questions, but in the same breath you seem to say that it is none of my business.

Fair enough -- I do not wish to "get personal", but may I ask what type of questions you would like to answer, and what type of questions are none of my business?

You do confuse me, really ...
So, may I or may I not ask you questions such as:
How God came to you?
How do you listen to God?
How did God give you knowledge and strength to go your own way?

So, where do you draw your "line in the sand", so to speak?
Karlis

Do humans have immortal souls?

http://purush.com/

I said personal experience of my own is not yours and come to think of it not anyone business..it is called personal experience for a reason Karlis

as for questions..I dont mind people asking me what faith I have...why I follow it...<--I can answer anyone but keep it short...I dont like to PREACH to anyone about faith of my own...its called a personal faith for that reason....do you still not understand me Karlis?

If I ever wish to share my personal experices..with someone..I will do but only with those I find trust worthy etc and people I am close to...



How can anyone (even yourself) know the 1st thing about how God works?? how???<--now when you think about that one karlis, then maybe you will understand as to WHY I cant explain to you how god works with me or anyone for that matter...God just makes it happen

If you believe God speaks to you..then you should have a fair idea on how God speaks to others?? so why ask??

I listen to God from within me..I can hear God...when I pray it gets stronger..I ask for gods help and guiedence...and I get it when it is needed.........God has never failed me...EVER

God told me to follow my heart...he gave us all the strength Karlis..its up to us to know how to use it....you can either IE - pick up a book written out to tell you how to live...OR use the good nature from within you, the strength you have and open yourself up to God...why judge who God is through the eyes of other people who are long gone?? why not judge gods character yourself...what is wrong with ASKING God questions??...........speak to God..and speak to God using your OWN words..your OWN ideas..and not something someone wrote donkeys years ago...it has to come directly from YOU <--------God told me this also....when I belonged to a religious faith..nothing worked out as well as it does when I follow God my way

Thats how I did it...and it works...I hold a right to state just how strong and full of self confidence on how smart I have come along..from I begun to make good use of my OWN free mind..

Dont get me wrong..some people like to use a book to guide them and follow a flock...but I see myself as different and stand out from the rest...and the more I stick to what I love best..the happier I am

Now Karlis..if that dont answer your questions..and you are STILL lost as you were before...do what I once did...perhaps ask God for more guidence thanks!...PS you dont have to ask God anything you dont wish to...its your life..you do what suits you

???
Would you care to be more explicit, please? That web page basically says nothing -- as far as I could see.
Karlis

Well being imortal doesn't mean anything unless there is something to be achieved. It's the same with being mortal. So one shouldn't see in terms of mortal and immortal and strive towards that thing to be achieved, Which is most likely to love and empathise.



He's right to a certain extent.

Mahavathar Babaji was born in the year 203 A.D. near the sanctuary of Chidambaram.
He is believed to be immortal and is only seen as a form of shining bright light
materialising into a youthful human form to bless his devotees. At times, he appears
in the form of dreams and on very rare occasions he appears in youthful physical form.
Babaji is also known as "the deathless master". Babaji is a "mahaavathar" the world does
not know much about. Please read Paramahansa Yogananda' "Autobiography of a Yogi" for a
better understanding of the role he plays in our universe.

Quotes from Paramahansa Yogananda's
"Autobiography of a Yogi"

http://purush.com/bab1.html

I understand your position. However, squeezing the life out with every drop is made quite pointless by death. Our existence is pointless if there is no eternal life. If the universe just winds down and dies, and we do not live forever, existence would be pointless. For those who are fine with living this life, good and fine. You have worked hard and earned the life you wanted. However, not everyone is dealt the same cards in life. Try telling that to a person who is born in a poverty and famine stricken area in Africa and won't live long. Try to tell them to enjoy life and don't worry about a better one. You'll find it quite hard to charm them over. This is reality. Our prosperity in America is hurting some other nation. That is cause. I believe that if there is no life after this one, then this one is pointless to live.

I can see where you're coming from, but I strongly disagree. The closest thing we will ever get to heaven is a heaven on Earth that we make ourselves.

what xians usually fail to understand is that there are several hebrew words in the Hebrew scriptures that are all trasnlated as "soul". I will give a very brief outline. Here is one good website:
http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/jane777/5soul.html

You may google and find out much more, or read a book:

The highest level is called the "Yechidah" or "oneness". The Yechidah is literally a part of God, and unites us with God. Hindus call this "atman".
Next is the "Chayah", which means life. The Chayah unites us with the entire human race. It is your humanity. Since the Chayah is in all of us, we should definitely "love your brother as yourself", as Jesus quoted from the holy scriptures in the n.t.

The Yechidah and Chayah return to God when you die.

Next is the "Ruach"- breath or spirit, also known as the Holy Guardian angel. The Ruach is with you from the moment of conception. It returns to heaven soon after death, but not always right away.

Then there is the Neshamah, the "immortal soul". It unites with the body on the thirtieth day of life, which is why Jews are not permitted to mourn the death of a newborn. After death it goes to She'ol, the waiting place. Then it either returns to God, or reincarnates, if it has more lessons to learn.

Lastly, there is the Nefesh, the animal soul, which dies with the body. If you look up the hebrew for every single reference to the "soul dying", it is the Nefesh. which joins to the "Guf", the body, at birth. Animals, to, have a Nefesh. We need to clear all this up. THe "soul" is based on Greek translations, when the n.t. was compiled in the fourth century. The only "soul" that is not immortal is the Nefesh!

As a Child, I always knew My dad put the quarter under my pillow when I lost a tooth, I was born a Jew, so I knew about Santa and the bunny also.

as a Man, I searched and experienced much, to give me a true idea of reality, I have been to spirit world and Heaven, I also have put myself, or my consciousness in a state Of hell.

These things I have experienced, and "KNOW" with out a doubt to be true. Because I know this to be true for myself, I have no need to convince you. But I do share my experiences with you. and wether you believe in my experiences or not, can not make what I know false.

So as I said sometimes Just Knowing is enough, for me anyway.

Love Omnaka

Well said sister!
From The father I know, None of the religions I've checked out over this life have Come close to the love and guidance I have recieved, by speaking directly with Father in my own words and feelings, always getting results and answers.

So many think there is only one way to pray, or must say certain words , ir have an intermediary to talk to God, I think those who believe this way have been taught this way, and have not tried Just speaking To God like the loving Parent, or friend that God is, or am (Depending on where one is from)

What you wrote is very Good.

Love Omnaka

I guess you guys didn't care for a scholarly explanation.

Thats a nice philosophy but of course just how we live our lives on earth is often influenced by, and sometimes dependent on, our value systems and beliefs. People whose world view encompasses an afterlife and an idea of judgement incorporate that into HOW they live their life. and the how is at least as important as the living itself.

I accept that plenty of non spiritual people create or use precreated human ethical and moral systems to live their lives by, and this works quite well, as long as those systems are relatively universal. However in the last century has grown a concept that any individual can create and live by their own unique and personalised ethical value system.

This is simply unworkable in a complex society, without the breakown in that society, which we have seen /experienced in the last 40-50 years. Eventually such a society will do one of two things; self destruct and be taken over/subsumed by a more vigorous and structured society, or reassert its own universal ethical principles.

So you cant simply live your life. If you dont want to take into an acount an after life, you do need to spend some time thinking about ethics and morality, and their place in your life on earth. (This you is not directed at matttshark or any other individual , but generically at all people.)

Thank you.........

Hi Gideon -- After I read your post (yesterday) I waited to see if anyone would comment on it, but no one did. That is why you wrote a short while ago, the following: "I guess you guys didn't care for a scholarly explanation.”

You probably will disagree with my following thoughts, but here is my take on the information you posted:
First -- I do not think that the source you gave is actually "scientific" -- it is mainly based on Kabbalistic thoughts. As an example let us look at the first sentence of your post:
"The highest level is called the "Yechidah" or "oneness". The Yechidah is literally a part of God, and unites us with God."

Those are clearly Kabbalistic thoughts -- not "scientific" thoughts, in my opinion. To verify my point, here is an excerpt from the web site you gave:

"... Alicia's Web site is my personal interpretation as redacted, cited, compiled, and edited by myself. They are not to be misconstrued as representative of any particular religious organizations, denomination, doctrine, or dogma ... other than my own.

"I have cited various sources: Adin Steinsaltz book - The Thirteen Petalled Rose, The Zohar - translated by Harry Sperling and Maurice Simon, The Bahir translation and commentary by Aryeh Kaplan, B.S. Ashlag (1906-1991)also known as The Rabash, The Ari- Rabbi Isaac Luria; and Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi; The Master Plan - The Baal Shem Tov's Unique Conception of Divine Providence. ..."


Also -- a quick search on Google for "Yechidah" came up with the following:
"Yechidah (Hebrew YChDH, "only one") in Kabbalistic theory is the highest aspect of the human soul corresponding to the first Sephirah Kether, and is included in the neshamah. The yechidah closely corresponds to the Neoplatonist concept of the scintilla or synteresis, the spark of divine light at the center of the self. A.G.H."
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/y/yechidah.html


I would guess that there probably are a number of people on these boards who adhere to Kabbalistic teachings, so I can see your point, Gideon -- but going by my own personal beliefs in God, and considering Scriptural teachings, I have to say that I do not give credence to Kabbalistic theories.

But again -- we all hold our own personal beliefs,
Karlis

Hello Jak -- do you consider the information on those web pages shows that Man has an immortal soul?

Thank you for your thoughts, Omnaka -- as usual, you make a worthwhile point.
Karlis

that we make? I was under the impression that God made heaven.

Bf,

If you are attempting to provoke some malaise in those who don't believe in your "life eternal with God All-Mighty", then I'm afraid you have got the wrong record playing.

If there is no eternal life then what matters is the life you live, not worrying about whether you are going to set your mark on eternity. How many people have acheived a form of immortality through simply living, rather than striving to become eternal? Most of those we remember I would suspect.

You have been indoctrinated to believe life without your God would be pointless, and that's fine, you continue to believe that. Meanwhile those who live our lives without your God will continue to enjoy it to the fullest and actually strive to make it the best life we possibly can - rather than spend our time preparing for death.

well said Leo.

it sometimes seems that such 'believers' only do good in the hope that their efforts will be rewarded, with such self interested motivation can any deed truly be considered 'good'?
If a god exists id bet that he'd be more impressed by a non believer living a 'good' life with none of the motivation that goes with the promise of salvation.

Cheers, grem!

I agree with the 'self-serving' comments absolutely!

All good deeds are self serving. Be it the reward of an afterlife, soothing your own conscience, or just plain old patting yourself on the back.

That's probably one of the reasons religion has such a great pull for some people, all the normal human reactions of self serving back patting but with the added bonus of a reward/afterlife.

I dont think that 'all' good deeds are self serving....someone jumping into a lake to save a drowning person without reflection is probably more about helping someone else. just one example.

Because the thought of standing there and watching someone drown would be to much for me to take, or knowing i could have saved a life but didn't would be to much to live with. Nothing self serving in that then!

Edit - just to clarify, i'm not knocking good deeds or the self serving feeling they give - infact the opposite.

I think what you are implying, UD, is that all of our actions are reward-based which, in a very clinical sense, is true. Why then, in accepting this, should we 'create' another reward-system based around the wish-fulfillment of some form of immortality?

well, i did say 'without reflection'.....
many people would jump in without any thought at all for 'reward' or self interest, but for concern for others.
it really does exist, this altruistic thing....but as you have shown, not everybody thinks like this.

Well in all honesty I don't know the answer to that leo. I didn't understand the link as a child when religion was being taught to me and I don't understand it now either. I could sit here and trumpet a load of reasons ranging from a natural progression of massaging the ego to making a connection with God (and therefore an afterlife) through some sort of self analysis of empathy - and it's uniqueness to the individual. But at the end of the day - i really don't know. Ask me a question on sport?

Yes and concern for others comes from the empathy you feel for the situation they are in and the need to rectify that situation for the good of the person in danger, therefore changing the feelings you felt of desperation and panic of the person in danger, therefore self satisfying and rewarding - and rightfully so.

Empathy yes perhaps, but i disagree that it is necessarily 'therefore' self satisfying and rewarding to act. If you mean the 'empowerment' over the feeling of 'helplessness', then again i agree only so far....it appears circumstancial to me.

I dont believe that every 'good' act stems from a self-serving and reward based thought process.

this way leads to a semantics debate over the term 'self-satisfying'....and the connotations involved.

Leo is right in pointing out the 'created reward system' that was the issue to begin with.
why is it necessary/preferred?
my argument was that to a 'real God' it would not be.

Ok, we'll have to just disagree with the meaning of self-serving. I came into the thread at the point where good deeds was mentioned as a self serving act to immortality, I believe that is prevalant in all good deeds and therefore not restricted or necessarily of any relevance to beliefs or hopes of immortality. That's all.

Above and beyond that, i'll bow out..

Thanks for reading my post. I am not a pure "kabbalist", per se, nor was I raised in the Jewish religion. The point I was making was, that there is no "soul", as the xians like to believe, in the Hebrew scriptures. The kabbalistic view is actually pretty much the same as that held by the Jews, as that is THE EXACT POINT OF VIEW IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES. The xian "soul" is used in the n.t. for several different Hebrew words. To follow KJV "soul" is to ignore 3000 years + of Jewish/kabbalistic thought. As far as "soul" are concerned, there is little or no real disagreement between Jewish and Vedic thought. The website I indicated was just one I happened on with a search engine; I have read many books and studied with various teachers to gain my knowledge. I do not use a "belief system." I don't know what your beliefs are, but if they are based on the n.t., with no knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, and at least a modicum of the Hebrew language itself, you can not possibly dispute Kababalah. The Kabbalah is not a belief system, per se, just a "systems analysis", and a very valuable tool to decipher the multilayer reality around us. I have highlghted in red two words of your comment. Which scriptures? There are many, and all reflect the One, if you allow them.