The Bible teaches that humans have the opportunity to gain immortality.

Having said that, I think it fair to point out that pretty well most Christian denominations teach the un-biblical doctrine that Man has an immortal soul already, and upon death will go to either heaven or hell.

What are your views?
Karlis

I think most people will agree that we have immortal souls, however what happens after our earthly death? Wow. There are probably hundreds of theories, and I for one am looking forward to the debate

I think people do have immortal souls. Once we die, we get reincarnated. The reason i think this is simple, How the **** can hundreds, upon millions, upon billions, upon trillions of people that have died over the centuries from BC to AD to now, fit in either heaven or hell? I mean the body we have is just a body, our souls power the bodily functions we have. So when something wears out or our bodies get old, we die (ofcourse) then get reincarnated. However, there are people who have recently died who's souls are still roaming around somewhere. One thing to do though is to know the difference between souls and spirits.

I don't believe in any kind of immortality and I think people who dwell too much on what'll happen after they die are wasting their lives.

Why would you call a person's immortal soul an unbiblical doctrine? Jesus taught it, that would seem to make it pretty biblical to me.

Interesting point Karlis, very interesting, I hadn't heard of this aspect before

http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn23/immortalsoul.htm

We've seen in this brief look at the supposedly immortal soul that the Bible teaches no such concept. The idea filtered into Western thought through Greek philosophy. Its origins are older than Athens, in fact as old as man.


Apparently, Yeti you hold a pagan belief:

http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/abou...mortalsouls.asp

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

All those who teach the pagan doctrine of the ‘immortality of the soul’, claim that the teaching comes from the Bible. BUT , is this true? The following passages of Scripture prove otherwise.

GENESIS 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND; for out of it was thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

ECCLESIASTES 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth BEASTS: even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man HATH NO PRE-EMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST; for all is vanity. ALL GO UNTO ONE PLACE; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."

ECCLESIASTES 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die ; BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING……also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished…..Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

JOHN 11:11-14. "These things said he (Jesus): and after that he said unto them (the disciples), Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I might awaken him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. The said Jesus unto them plainly, LAZARUS IS DEAD."

JOB 3:17. "There (the grave) the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."

PSALM 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

All of these passages of Scripture show that death results in man going to the grave and NOT to heaven. Nor are there any references of any part of the person going to heaven except the breath of life ( Hebrew: ruwach—breath, air life), which is given to man at birth. It ‘goes back to God who gave it’ (Eccles. 12:7).

Which Scriptures did you have in mind, Yeti? I can't find such Scriptures.

Oh -- unless you are thinking of some parable, as opposed to a clear teaching?
Karlis

Yes, I agree that most people *assume* that we have immortal souls.
Question is -- just what is the basis for this belief?
Karlis

hmmm, the basis for a belief. I think most beliefs are taught to us when we are young, and as we grow older, through experience, observation and trial and error. As for immortality? I think most people feel the need for something more than the short time on earth that we have, and a religion that promises eternal afterlife makes living and dieing more comfortable to deal with. For how hopeless would life be if it all ends so soon anyway?

Yes, as we grow from childhood into adults, we can easily discern the truth about, say, the Easter Bunny and Santa.

Now, that's something different; we "assume" some idea ... or we "accept" some idea.

Reminds me of Harry Potter sitting in front of the mirror of Erised (spelling???), and Dumbledore's wise words.

As Cradle of Fish wrote, "...people who dwell too much on what'll happen after they die are wasting their lives."

Immortality in any form is a falasy, unless you can write yourself into a history book. Even then it can be a falasy and will be yiped out in time... There's no such thing. Immortality does not exist. Even for a GOD or the many god's that have existed and have yet died the age of time. Every god from now and till the end of foolish belife systems exsist end we will all suffer from well we should all knoe that out come.

lol i cant tell if you agree with me or are mocking me Karlis.

Eventually through human technology like cyber implants, modification of DNA and medicine, biological immortality will be achievable for human. This is quite likely, but to be honest I wouldn't even want to be immortal on this planet. Life on this earth is either completly useless and with no goal or it is a preparation for the afterlife. Either way, immortality in this life would be a curse. I hope there is an after life where we could live in peace for eternity. I don't buy into religions that say they're right about eternal happiness in their heaven, nor into sceptics that say it's not possible because of science and that crap. We can only find out by experiecing it ourselves first handed. All I can do is hope.

And just for the fun of it, I looked up some species that are actually immortal. Needless to say that it doesn't really matter for these creatures, but it's still interesting. It's from wikipedia, but I assume it's reliable enough:

Not that I was disagreeing with you, S2Fate -- simply taking it a logical step further.

Well ... I hope it is a logical step.
Karlis

I, as a Christian, actually do not believe in a soul separate from the body. I believe the body with the breath of life in it is the soul. Thus a LIVING creature is a soul.

What does this say about immortality? It says that God made us to live forever, and I believe He still intends for us to live forever. However, Paul points out that our bodies will not be corruptible and mortal like the ones we have now. how? I dunno.

Cause is unpreventable. Therefore, even if you had all the DNA modifications and medicine, we still die by cause. Causes such as: Car Accident, Meteor falling from the sky and destroying your house with you in it sleeping, a massive earthquake, a murderer in the night, freak accidents, ect.

I believe you are right in saying that all you can do is hope. Hope is essential to faith. Otherwise, the faith would lack the energy to endure doubt, temptation, and stress. Its like Paul said: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for; the conviction [evidence] of things not seen."

Thank you belle ,you just saved me the trouble of finding these verses or others like them.

When we die our body goes to the grave and our soul goes to sleep. However, the bible also teaches that all will be ressurected First the dead in christ( or the saved) These willl be taken to heaven and given new bodies much physically superior to our earthly ones (immortal and incoruptible)
For 1000 years, satan and the fallen angels will occupy the earth with out any human presence (it will be a void)
Then those who have not been saved will be resurrected 1000 years later on the day of judgement.

All these, and the devil, and the beast and the fallen angels, will be destroyed, consumed, utterly, body and soul in the same flames god uses to cleanse the earth of all sin (this is the second death)

Then god will restore the earth to an edenic like state, restore eden to earth, and the restored humans (new body and restored souls) will repopulate the earth, where there will be no death or corruption and the lamb will lay down with the lion.

That's what the bible actually teaches, anyway. So those humans who are saved do have an immortal soul which is unique to them both during life on earth and later. Those who are lost, forsake their immortal soul "for the wages of sin is death" They completely cease to exist.

Only those who look to the bible for salvation need to read and understand what the bible says on this matter, of course.

Yes -- that is *exactly* what the Bible teaches; every living being -- man or animal -- is a living soul. Once that physical creature dies, it then is a dead soul.

According to Bible Scriptures, those who are resurrected as immortal beings will have "bodies" that consist of Spirit, not flesh and blood (that is, if "body" is a suitable word in this context).

Like you, I also can not comprehend what kind of a "body" a *spirit being* would possess.

Aside from that, going by descriptions in Scriptures, we can reasonably say that those who are resurrected as immortal spirit beings will be able to materialise in physical, blood-and-bone form, at will.
Karlis

Depends on how far cybernetics can make possible the melding of human and machine. If consciousness can be reduced to data and stored on some chip-type interface then it's possible even the physical death of the body would not prevent the personality from being continued in another (cloned) body.

Interesting. I've thought about that [on a more spiritual basis]. But again, cause can interfere. What if, in the process of moving conscienceness on a data chip or whatever storage device, somebody spills their coffee on the chip, or gets in an accident and drives of the bridge and dies as well, or a cyclone strikes and destroys the storage device? There are so many possibilities. I've seen it to be the rule that people think much of themselves and little of everything around them. I never listen to someone when they say, "Don't worry, that will never happen." or "Trust me, we are not going to get caught." Pride can be blinding.

I think that the body will be a physical body, just an indestructable body. Paul goes into depth about it. And if you look at Daniel 10 and Revelation 1, angels are described with body parts resembling things of imperishable and glorious nature. Eyes of lighting, feet of furnished bronze, hair white as wool, voice of a multitude, ect. The new bodies, I believe, will be similar. How our memories and conscience is transferred over? I do not know.

We could to and fro about cause and prevention all day without resolving anything. I agree pride can be blinding, and this includes the pridefulness of those who believe there are limits to what we can acheive as human beings because of some 'external agency' perhaps preventing/restricting our ambition and progress. There are always two sides.

Man has An imortal, or eternal spirit, The soul is when the spirit incarnates with a body

Body and spirit= soul.

Semantics,

Love Omnaka

I have come to understand that the Soul is our Body's (Earthly plane) connection to our Spirit (Divine plane)

Indeed. But cause is an inevitability and inevitability is worth discussing since it has a profound impact on our lives. I find it important that none stay willfully unknowing of such things. Me typing on this computer is going to have either a positive or negative effect on someone else or something else in this universe. That is the way it is. And nobody told me to. No one is controling this but me. That is how the universe works, and we cannot say whether one thing will happen. And using the Big Bang theory, nothing escaped it. Nothing. That means, men in all their endeavors cannot stop the universe from dieing. This is cause. Therefore, no matter how long men escape death, it will find them. Though we could go to and fro all day about this, I think it worth the time addressing the issue of willful ignorance. I believe that many people refuse to consider these issues in their daily lives. The drunk driver will say, "Seize the Day!", and then destroy the life of another. The pilot may boast in his skills, but can be knocked out of the sky by enemy aircraft, or some natural phenomenon. The possiblities are endless. I don't challenge what humans are capable. I'm just saying it will eventually mean nothing.

Thats a interesting view on your behalf blue...I never thought of it like that

and at least you used honesty..you state you do not know...

PS nice to see you posting again

Thank you BM. I don't think I would find the motivation to post if it weren't for the regulars to warmly welcome me. Good to hear from you.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with a Christian saying, "I do not know." A Christian's duty is not to know everything, but to tell of his experiences of the living God in his life.

Do humans have immortal souls?

Yes.

The fragility and uncertainty of life is what makes it so exciting and wondrous. As you say, a person could have a fatal accident tomorrow, so enjoy life while you have it and don't spend your life preparing for some possible next one.

Immortality would be incredibly dull.

Its so good to see you again...

Anyhoo, yes you are correct..I myself would find it very hard to dispute with a christian that uses honesty and says - I don't know..its just something I believe <---how can anyone dispute that?? I respect the honesty and become more eager to listen to that christian more so than the pretentious ones, you know the kind..the know it all's LOL

If every christian said I dont know (only in some odd spots)..more would listen..less arguement...nuff said..

I'm afraid I can not agree with that. I think it mere wishful thinking. We have one life and we should live it and not spend so much time thinking about what happens afterwards.

Well of course it is wishful thinking Matt...I mean I would love nothing more than to think that one day after this life is gone that I will get to be with my loved ones again forever

all wishful thinking..

As I understand it the human Soul can most certainly perish, but is usually eternal
But the Spirit is immortal.
The Soul is a kind of connection from the Body (Earthly plane) to the Spirit (the Divine)
When the Body dies the Soul returns to the Soul World and will experience intense cravings for the physical lifetime it spent with the Body, this can be looked at as Purgatory, or as Theosophy calls it, the 'Place of Desires'.
It is know that a vampiric Soul is different than a human Soul, and that in fact the human Soul has been destroyed and this vampiric Soul created in its place.

mm, yes, how does something mortal become imortal?

It is an interesting paradox.

It is not a paradox. The Christians have it wrong . . . lol.

Mark Chapter 12 for starters.

24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

He is the God of the living....but the guys he spoke of were dead.

Romans 8:16

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Amen brother.

Love Omnaka

That is a very powerful statement, Bella-A.
Could you please give your reasons for saying that?

I am sure you will agree that a categorical statement without back-up argument is not exactly convincing.
Karlis

she just...............believes so??

SometimesKnowing is enough.

Love Omnaka

I am definitely on the fence with this one Karlis.

This is what my brain is doind when I'm thinking about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUwd2z9935Q

Exactly

I think that one has to take *context* into consideration, when reading such Scriptures, Yeti:

The key question here seems to be:
Was Paul writing to the whole population in the world, irrespective of their spiritual orientation?
Or -- was he writing to those who had received the Spirit of God?

As I see it, those who are resurrected in this particular instance are the ones who are "in the first resurrection" -- they had received the Spirit of Christ while they were mortal, and they will then be resurrected as immortal spirit beings.
What do you and others think about this?

That seems quite clear, Yeti:
Those who are dead, are dead as the proverbial door-nail; they have no consciousness.
God is NOT the God of inanimate dead flesh, agreed?

Exactly my point, Yeti.
Dead "souls" are inanimate fertiliser, pushing up daisies. they are not living, conscious sentient beings, agreed?

Again, we are in total agreement:

If the Spirit of Christ (meaning the Spirit of God) is within a person, *that person has been "conceived" a second time;* this time by the seed // sperm of the Holy Spirit, and is then a "new being", waiting to be born again -- this time as an immortal spirit being, at the resurrection of the saints, at Christ's next return -- according to Scriptures.
Or do you see that I am mistaken here?

Yes -- that is the future awaiting those who will be resurrected as spirit beings.
At present, we are mortal beings who will die.
As to whether the second death awaits us, or whether immortality awaits us, is the big question, as I see it.

What do you, Yeti -- and others on this board -- think?
Karlis

Hmmm ... what if one believes that the God of carrot juices is the path to heaven?

Karlis

Everyone who is alive has a spirit within them even though we are all mortal (including the regenerate) and will die in the flesh at some point. The fact that the scripture says God's spirit bears witness with our spirit proves that believers have a spirit but to say that non-believers don't have a spirit is inaccurate in my opinion. When God made man, he made him of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus told by Jesus confirms that even non-believers have a spirit.

So what? its no biggie..who is anyone including yourself to tell them, they are wrong?

Because it is scripture proves nothing

Earthly Being - Soul / Spirit - Divine Spirit exist with or without a Christian scripture, in everyone.

Again, I have no argument with what you write Yeti -- except for the idea that every human being has the Spirit of God/Christ within them (if that is what you mean?)

As I see it, everyone has "the spirit of man" (conscious self-awareness). That spirit is "our spirit of awareness, consciousness" -- not God's Spirit.

Non-believers have "the spirit of man" -- but they do not have the Spirit of Christ/God within them.

The "breath of life" is exactly that; air breathed by all creatures.

The parable about the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, and in my opinion should be understood in context.

In my opinion, this parable was NOT about immortality, but rather was about carnality.
If you think I am wrong on this, please explain your views further ... I am open to suggestions.

Karlis

The Scriptures tell me so.

The choice is yours, I guess.
Karlis

I disagree, since I see God as the conscience of our Universe, I have no problem seeing that we all not only have the conscience of our Earthly plane in us but we also have the Divine conscience of God also