Hey everyone. It strikes me as odd that in the gospel of Matthew in the sermon on the mount, Christ never indicates once that salvation comes by accepting the belief that he is the one and only savior . Yet preaches that those who put his teachings into practice is liken 'to a wise man who built his house on the rock: And the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.' In another part of his sermon he says that if you practice what he preaches (with all due respect to Jesus he practiced what he preached and hence my serious consideration of his teachings) you will even be 'perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect'.

It seems rather obvious to me that those who are founded on the rock or perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect are metaphors for salvation.

So are the evangelicals and more or less the vast majority of Christian denominations (and in a sense St. Paul unless like me you interpret him a little differently) wrong in saying that good works dont bring salvation? If I practice what Christ preaches this practice can be considered 'good works' and if I go on practicing them then according to Christ I will be 'perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect'.

Who do I believe? Luther? Calvin? The evangelicals? St. Paul or Christ himself?

If I put Christs teachings into practice but dont believe he is the one and only savior then does my house still fall?

No, the love That Bro jesus taught was the love of father, Whome even bro said to pray to. You are also a son Of Father (God) Practicing love can only net love and respect , on earth as in Heaven.

Please don't ever stop practicing Good works of love, No matter what scripture says, Not all need a book or words to know Father, and no one needs Brother Jesus to speak directly with Father.

Go with what your heart tells you , And I know you hear very well Brave New World.

Father is pleased with your love, This I know.

Love Omnaka

Awww thanks buddy! I do agree whole heartedly when you say:

Not all need a book or words to know Father, and no one needs Brother Jesus to speak directly with Father.

Too bad there is not a single Xian religion that actually follows the teachings. Strangely enough, most orthodox Jews are better Xians than Xians.

I was hoping i would get some more christians answering to this thread...

I would consider it in a few ways, BNW.

1 - What did Jesus teach? In the Sermon from Matthew 5-7, Jesus outlines many teachings. Jesus then states that all who hears and puts them into practice builds a solid foundation. But the big question arises, can we follow these laws?

2 - Can we all follow these laws? Is it possible not to ever get angry with other people (and so refrain from committing murder in our hearts)? I don't think so. And this is just one example. What about the laws on adultery (even looking lustfully at a woman - can us guys ever claim to have not done that). What about love your enemies. Can we all claim to have done that? And if so, can we all claim to always have built our foundation totally solid? Granted, they are a good step, and this links with my point no.4 which I'll deal with shortly.

3 - What else does Jesus teach outside of the Matthew 5-7? Jesus tells that the two most important commandments in the Bible are first to Love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and mind, and the second to Love our neighbours as ourselves. Jesus then goes on elsewhere to teach that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father, except through me". And the author of John gives the commentary that Jesus died to save us (John 3:16 being the most popularly quoted of these).

4 - Is Faith without Deeds possible? Faith is synonymous with Trust (not belief). It is true that we are saved by Faith alone (biblically speaking) but is that Faith/Trust sitting on a stable platform if it is not accompanied by the teachings of the one we put that Faith in? Following Jesus' teachings has many benefits, I believe. Not judging, loving others. But doing these things do not in and of themselves save us. They are good indicators and may show that we are building our life on a "solid foundation", but the only way through to salvation is not through our own making but only through Faith in God.

Just a thought or two to consider,

I have always considered that those who follow Jesus' teachings to thier best ability, in faith, by Grace, will show the symptoms through what they do.

I believe in salvation by grace and faith, not works, however, if you mature in God, you'll tend to have your life (actions) increasingly show it, you know?

If it doesn't, then there's a problem. He said you'll know a tree by it's fruits. You'll know His followers by their love.

Granted, I don't see that much in the world, or the Church, really, nor even in my life as I should be able to, but I try and I have faith. I leave it to Him to sort it out, where I can't.

That is about it.

NS

If we cant follow the laws then why would Christ preach them? Buddhists would say we can practice such teachings and so would Hindus. Hindus like Christians would admit that grace is needed to practice them on a higher level and reach their fullest potential. However Hindus (and some christians) unlike many Christians would admit that a faith in a certain belief system doesnt bring about grace but the practicing of such teachings does which in turn enable a person to further themselves even deeper with their practice.







On the note of John 3:16, the bible shows that belief itself doesnt lead one to the light. This sight here better explains it:

This is the most popularly quoted verse in the Bible, BUT it is quoted out of context without the companion verses that qualify its meaning to be totally the opposite of how people interpret it, when looked at alone. Many call this verse "an entire Bible in itself." Unfortunately they are wrong.

Let's look at all the verses after this famous verse, which totally change the traditional, but erroneous interpretation:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Everything fits with the common interpretation, out of context, until verses 20 and 21 are included:

Verse 20: For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Whoever still sins hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest (for fear that) his deeds be reproved, (judged).
Because his deeds were evil, he is afraid to come into the light for them to be judged.

http://www.hallvworthington.com/believe.html


Loving God with all one's heart and neighbour as oneself doesnt require that you accept as a belief that Christ died for your sins. One is able to practice such teachings more selflessly and perfectly just by practicing them. In this respect I would ask 'how does faith in a mere belief that Christ died for our sins enable one to practice such things' over someone who doesnt. For an example Gandhi and Sri Ramana Maharshi (and countless other saints and sages) never had exclusive faith in Christ and yet were able to achieve the experiences of God or Primordial Buddha-womb one gets from detachment from desires, sexual or otherwise. Most Christians I know who claim to have faith are far from such things.


I onced asked the Bishop of Geneva (Francois de Sales) what one must do to attain perfection. "You must love God with all your heart," he answered, "and your neighbour as yourself."

"I did not ask wherein perfection lies," I rejoined, "but how to attain it." "Charity," he said again, "that is both the means and the end, the only way by which we can reach that perfection which is, after all, but Charity itself. . . Just as the soul is the life of the body, so charity is the life of the soul."
"I know all that," I said. "But I want to know how one is to love God with all one's heart and one's neighbour as onself."

But again he answered, "We must love God with all our hearts, and our neighbour as ourselves."
"I am no further than I was," I replied. "Tell me how to acquire such love."

"The best way, the shortest and easiest way of loving God with all one's heart is to love him wholly and heartily!"
He would give no other answer. At last, however,the Bishop said. "There are many besides you who want me to tell them of methods and systems and secret ways of becoming perfect, and I can only tell them that the sole secret is a hearty love of God, and the only way of attaining that love is by loving.

You learn to speak by speaking, to study by studying, to run by running, to work by working; and just so you learn to love God and man by loving. All those who think to learn in any other way deceive themselves. If you want to love God, go on loving Him more and more. Begin as a mere apprentice, and the very power of love will lead you on to become a master in the art. Those who have made most progress will continually press on, never believing themselves to have reached their end; for charity should go on increasing until we draw our last breath."

---Jean Peirre Camus

The fitting disposition for union with God is not that the soul should understand , feel, taste or imagine anything on the subject of nature of God, or any other thing whatever, but should remain in that pureness and love which is perfect resignation and complete detachment from all things for God alone.

---St. John of the Cross



Faith can be synonymous with belief. http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/belief

Also bibically speaking both our points of view are supported. Because it isnt taking the bible out of context in my view to put Christ's teachings into practice as he preached on the mount and expect if one truly does their best to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. Also the bible says :

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. --2:24

One can follow Christ's teachings and have faith that they will work, bring one salvation. But one can do this without accepting Christ as the one and only Messiah.

Perhaps to show us we can't do it, and hence highlight that on our own we're basically screwed (thus validating the reaso for Jesus' death in our place)??????

Agreed, but as I said, Jesus also says elsewhere that he is the only way to God (John 14:6) - and yes, I know you take this much less literally than I do.

As I said, I know you treat verses such as John 14:6 much less literally, but if you take the conservative approach that Jesus is the only way, then a person's actions do not save them. They can act godly, but there is always sin.

However, just because someone proclaims Faith in Jesus does not therefore mean they are saved either. Is their Faith/Trust true? Or is it hypocritical lip-service? Only God can tell.

According to this definition. But the Bible's definition of "Faith" is different. The people spoken of in the Bible who spoke to God are said to have great Faith. How can this "Faith" be a "belief" if they met God and spoke to him? It can't. Biblically speaking, "Faith" has a different connotation than the modern view encompasses - and that definition is one of Trust. You either Trust what Jesus said to be accurate, or you do not. Nowhere in the whole Bible is "Faith" applied to a person's "belief in God" - it is always referring to actions.

That is one opinion. I would say he preached suched things to show they can be done and that his way of living is a model by which such teachings can be fulfilled.



Yes I would say that when Christ says only through him can God be reached he means through his teachings and the light God has lighted us with that intuitively from within guides us to perfect such teachings.



John says: Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Christ also says: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I would say Christ is implying that we too like him be perfect.



It wouldnt be faith either. It would be knowing. According to the bible faith is belief as well

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ---Hebrews 11:1

Belief likewise:

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.



Therefore works do save. Having faith in the word 'Jesus' isnt going to save but doing actual works of love will.

Jesus did not have a monopoly on those teachings. All of his truthful teachings came from pre-existing ideas. He didn't add anything whatsoever, even if he was the Messiah. So does your house still fall? Well, your still built on a Rock right?

Acts 4:10-12

4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

vs. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

vs. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
------
Ephesians 2:8,9

vs. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs. 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast


Mandalore

quite opposite. Matthew was written for the Jewish Christian crowd, who were being pressured by Orthodox Jews to uphold the Torah and not the teachings of Jesus. Jesus, in the book of Matthew, is portrayed as being the Messiah, who claimed to be the fulfillment of the Law [Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.] The direction was to not trust on one's own work's, but the works of the Messiah. So those who trust in Jesus completely are saved, not by their works and teachings, but by those of Jesus Christ.

Amen to that brother, Nothing chanced nothing gained. Or one can simply rely on Grace which is there also.

I would rather die trying, and accept grace after failure, but not because I did not try.

I try not to ask Father to do anything I would not attempt myself.

Love Omnaka

The rock is Love , another word For God.

Love Omnaka

Did you ever read the rest of Hebrews 11???? I would suggest you take the time to study it. Immediately following this verse, the writer goes on to expand on matters of "believing in things unseen" -

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did.
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt
By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born
By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.
By faith the walls of Jericho fell
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient

Like the writer, I neither have time to list the times when people's Faith led to actions. And if you'll note in this entire chapter of Hebrews - not once is one commended for believing in God. Indeed, many of them spoke to God, conversed with him, yet they are told they acted on Faith. Their Faith was referring to their action in trusting God, not in believing in God who was unseen (for they had seen him) but in believing in God's promises which had not yet been seen. To simply use Hebrews 11:1 ignores all matters of context (oh dear, that "C" word again).

Let us suffice to say taht I cannot ever agree with this view. Works do not save. Only Grace through Faith (not belief, Faith - Trust). Works, however, is the way in which we as Christians should express our Faith, so without works our Faith means nothing.

This be quite easily interpreted to mean the light of the True light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The name is merely symbolic for an actual thing.



Let me quote myself from the beginning of this thread:

Hey everyone. It strikes me as odd that in the gospel of Matthew in the sermon on the mount, Christ never indicates once that salvation comes by accepting the belief that he is the one and only savior . Yet preaches that those who put his teachings into practice is liken 'to a wise man who built his house on the rock: And the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.' In another part of his sermon he says that if you practice what he preaches (with all due respect to Jesus he practiced what he preached and hence my serious consideration of his teachings) you will even be 'perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect'.

Jesus here would disagree with Paul it seems (depending how you interpret Paul). Christ blatantly indicates here that through practicing his teachings one comes to be 'perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect'.

I dont think it does ignore other matters of context. I think it is a self contained definition. But besides all the things you have listed. All these people had actions with their faith or faith led them to actions. I am not actually disputing that. My debate here is that one doesnt have to have a particular kind of faith in the belief that Christ is an exclusive messiah that died for our sins to achieve such actions or experiences of God. Christ himself in the sermon on the mount never says anything about accepting a belief system and having faith in it to be 'perfect as your father in heaven is pefect'. He preaches certain spiritual insights and a moral code of conduct by which if one practices one will recieve such insights and be 'perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect'.

Mahatma Gandhi for an example never accepted Christ as an exlcusive Messiah yet practiced many (if not all) of Christs teachings and was led and inspired to do actions which were proven (in my view) to be more spiritually grounded and God fearing than any Christian I have met and I have met many many christians. Gandhi too had faith. Without his faith he himself would have been doomed. But he didnt have faith that only one man in all of our history was ever truly spiritual. Likewise he believed there have been many in the past throughout the various cultures east and west.

Faith alone doesnt justify as the bible itself states. And pure religion according to James is more or less good works:

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James---1:27






No one does anything without faith whether conscious or unconscious. Therefore all works more or less have some kind of faith/belief behind them for they in a large measure at least affect our actions (works). However faith that one can get closer to reality as it is ,and spiritual excercises and acts of pure charity based on such a faith, I believe can 'save' whatever that means because for thousands or hundreds of years various buddhists and hindu yogis have achieved spiritual liberation. The evidence is in the great similarity between the teachings of Christ and our eastern spiritual cousins. Even after Christ and up to the present day there have been many. It would seem irrational to say that all these teachers and fathers of humanity are either wolf in sheeps clothing, false prophets (though there are always gonna be many quacks) or lost sheep.

Yet someone can be 'reborn' as a Christian and declare faith that the word Christ is the only one who saves and go on to do atrocities as Hitler did or on a lower level of atrocious manifestation join the army and pray to Christ to help him destory the very enemies he is meant to love or at least do unto them as he would have them do to him. The list goes on.
And what is worse, such people look at those who do good works and acts of charity and tell them that they mean nothing until such works are charged with the belief that Christ is their only savior. That unless they have this belief they are not worthy in the eyes of God. This to me seems like an insane theology. Luther himself captures it the best in his own letters:

Esto peccator, et pecca fortiter; sed fortius crede et gaude in Christo, qui victor est peccati, mortis et mundi.Peccandum est quam diu sic sumus; vita haec non est habitation justitiae. ("Be a sinner and sin strongly; but yet more strongly believe and rejoice in Christ, who is the conqueror of sin, death and the world. So long as we are as we are, there must be sinning; this life is not the dwelling place of righteousness.")

And then this:

"This is the acme of faith," says Luther in his De Servo Arbitrio, "to believe that God who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just who, at his own pleasure, has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that He seems to delight in the torture of the wretched and to be more deserving of hate than of love. If by any effort of reason I could conceive how God, who shows so much anger and harshness, could be merciful and just, there would ne no need of faith."

It is like generations of protestants who claim to have the 'right' interpretation of the bible actually got their interpretation from unstable religious fanatics. Calvin was an absolute religious tyrant. Luther speaks for himself. According to him it doesnt matter if you sin and be immoral,as long as you 'believe' that Christ died for your sins then you are justified because good works dont save anyway.

Hahaha, I don't know what it is with you, man, but I always seem to agree with you. You know, in the Baghavad Gita, Krishna talks about how he has come into the world several times to enlighten others, and continues to do so. If you look at his teachings, they are similar to those of Jesus. Well, I believe they are the same person. Jesus has been here many, many times. IMO your house will certainly stand up. Everything to do with Jesus in the NT is SYMBOLIC (although I do believe it happened). To me, the Sermon on the Mount is the summary of the entire Bible, and the most important thing in it. It reminds me of the tarot card and the fool; how he sets out on his journey, well, the sermon on the mount is that starting point, that leads to gradual enlightenment, and hopefully the death of your own ego on the cross, and the surrender of your will to God.

"Mahatma Gandhi for an example never accepted Christ as an exlcusive Messiah yet practiced many (if not all) of Christs teachings and was led and inspired to do actions which were proven (in my view) to be more spiritually grounded and God fearing than any Christian I have met and I have met many many christians. Gandhi too had faith. Without his faith he himself would have been doomed. But he didnt have faith that only one man in all of our history was ever truly spiritual. Likewise he believed there have been many in the past throughout the various cultures east and west. "

That is so right on! I don't view Christ as this diety you must follow exclusively, OR ELSE! Why do you think He was hanging out with the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the beggars......and other people that society frowned upon? To drive home a point!! We are all one, regardless of belief or position! He accepted everyone, and that's what we should be doing too. I think what He really wanted was for us to follow Him as the MODEL to salvation, not necessarily to express Him as same. I mean, do these fundamentalists think Gandhi is in hell? To me that's just insane. He followed the Christ like path, so I am sure that He became one with the Christ Consciousness.

People can follow any belief system, or none at all, yet still walk the path of Jesus and eventually become one with Him.

I see 'you get it'. Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad and countless more are all Boddhitsatvas (spelling) or God incarnate out there to show that everyone is God incarnate. Tis a shame there is so much exclusive messiah syndrome in beliefs, especially in the west.

You quoted Hebrews 11:1 to try and show me that the Bible defines "Faith" as synonymous with "belief". I completely and wholeheartedly disagree. Not once in this entire list (or anywhere else in the Bible, for that matter) is a single person ever commended simply for believing God exists. Therefore, Hebrews 11:1 is not a "self-contained definition", but a comment that should be understood with everything that comes after that about how people acted by Faith to do things -- even those who had met God - I still have not heard a response as to how a person can have a Faith (a belief) in God if they already had literally met God and spoken with him. Their Faith must have been in something else for it to be a "belief", or else the definition of "Faith" is closer to Trust.

I know what you're debate is. I just disagree with it, and I think this disagreement is irreconcilable. You are looking at this solely from Matthew 5-7, which are awesome teachings, don't get me wrong, but are not the whole picture of what Jesus taught. These are three chapters in a 22-chapter book, not to mention the other gospel accounts.

He may have been a good role model, perhaps even taught/lived many of Jesus' teachings. But he was not a follower of Christ.

No disagreements. I have never argued "Faith alone". Well, I have. But to ignore the rest of what I said about how works do play a role would be to grossly misrepresent my position on the subject. As for James 1:27, good passage. You are correct, this is how "religion" should be practiced. It is one of my favourite definitions. It's one of the key problems when speaking with skeptics and they say "religion is evil" when they mean earthly organisations and I mean James 1:27.

Ahh, so now our Eastern systems also preached that Jesus was the only way to God Sorry, BNW. I do see what you are trying to say. But by looking at the physical things that Jesus taught, you may have a point, but I think it completely overlooks the spiritual aspect to his life. Jesus followed Yahweh through to the very end, and endorsed us to do the same. Our "eastern spiritual cousins" have also missed that somewhere along the lines.

though as an aside, while Christianity in the West is declining in many areas, in the East, it is on the increase, by leaps and bounds. One day in the not-too-distant future, I predict that Christianity might also be considered an "Eastern religion" based on the proponents of those who follow it.

Just a thought,

I do so hope that this is not in reference to anything I have said. You cannot declare faith in Chrst and then commit atrocities. What does the light have in common with darkness, asks Paul in Romans 6? That is where works come in. Our Faith alone is what saves us. But it is through our works that this Faith is expressed. If we submit to Christ as ruler and saviour and say "Yes Lord, I trust you and will follow you", but then ignore him and do whatever you want anywhere, where's the Trust? Where's the Love that Jesus taught? It's not there. It's hypocritical lip-service.

that said, and to someone play Devil's Advocate to my own response, by the same token, just because a man or woman does something wrong and still claims Christ as Lord does not by necessity mean that they are not saved. Only God can know the heart and see if they truly were trying to follow him.

It's not so much that these good works mean nothing, but more the point that the bad works we do will always be with us, no matter what. And the only way they can be removed is through Jesus dying in our place.

Luther was one of the key people in the Reformation, and as such will always hold a special place in the history of my belief. But by the same token, his actual writings show he did not believe in the need for Works, and indeed taught some things that can only be described as "despicable (incidentally, it was he who originally campaigned to remove the book of James from the Canon, on the basis that Works cannot save). Suffice it to say I am glad I do not put my Faith in a man (such as Luther) but solely in the saving Grace of God.

All the best, BNW

And here I was thinking that Jesus dined with tax collectors and sinners to drive the point home that it is "not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick" - that was the answer Jesus gave. He came to preach to the tax-collectors, the "sinners", to bring the message to them. What purpose would it serve if Jesus taught forgiveness of sin but never went to the sinners.

This in term logically it seems to me would imply that salvation can come by without Christ because not everyone needs the Dr. Christ and his medicine?

Or more correctly it was they who needed it most. What made a tax collector any better or worse than other person? It was a societal stigma. tax collectors were hated (heh, not much changed in 2000 years), though probably more corrupt then than now (generally speaking). Remember that Jesus also had harsh words to say about the Pharisees with their legalistic righteousness, and by all manner of "law keeping", they were above reproach, pillars-of-the-community type folk.

You keep on looking at the story of Jesus as a series of isolated incidents that do not really relate in any meaningful way. This story about "tax collectors and sinners" was just one example among many of Jesus' expressions. His harshness with the Pharisees, overturning the money-tables, his preaching to the Samaritan woman at the well, they all are intertwined to give us a picture of who Jesus is. You can't (or I won't) take one incident like the "tax collectors and sinners" and then say that it meant no one apart from those people at that party needed Dr J.C. in da house.

As i said, we are from completely irreconcilable opposites on the field of understanding here.

Faith is trust in something you cannot prove.

Belief is the same.

A person who has literally met God in whatever form have neither belief or faith. They have knowing. They dont have faith because they know. Faith or belief implies uncertainty (at least theoretically).

Hence why fanatics proclaim their faith ever so loudly and unbearably because they are compensating for a void of doubt.

I am willing to admit that the bible proclaims an intuitive faith which doesn't counter reason (yet transcends it) and gives spiritual guidance for action.

However todays Christians what I have witnessed don't proclaim such a thing. They preach and interpret the scriptures to mean that faith alone justifies and that one doesnt have to do anything other than hold such a faith/belief because this belief unlike all others magically or spiritually lifts one out of eternal sin into temporary sin and then into eternal sin-free paradise. And not only that a belief that Christ died for our sins also magically or spiritually causes us to do works of love and good. This goes great in theory but practice shows that there are many believers who arn't saints but believers who want to convert others into mere believers.

Or if you are a real follower of the nut-case Luther then you can actually get away with sin and do it however one wishes as long as you believe strongly even more that Christ died for our sins.

Practice also shows that for every Gandhi who isn't a 'believer' yet as selfless as a saint there are at least a million believers who are far from selfless yet more justified because theu happen to have a belief which apparently is meant to cause one to be Christ like in their actions. Why arnt there a million Dalai Lamas or Gandhis?




I am not ignoring what you say. My answer here has more or less been explained aforementioned. James says faith alone doesnt justify and that pure religion is more or less good works. Yet Paul says otherwise (depending how you interpret him).

It is very obvious that a belief that Christ is the one who saves doesnt necessarily inspire actions of love and charity. According to much supposed Christian logic one can have faith and do no good works and be saved. One can have faith and do good works and be saved. One can do good works and have no faith and not be saved or worthy in the eyes of God, or one can have faith in something other than that Christ is an exclusive messiah and be more charitable than someone who does and not be saved.

This in my eyes is an insane logic and theology.




Wholehearted love for God and one's neighbour is considered spiritual in the east. Non-violence in speech, thought and action is considered spiritual in the east. Loving that which is permanent instead or that which is transient or rusts is considered spiritual in the east. Loving God over mammon (wealth) or any other possessions is considered spiritual in the east. Prayer in solitude or with others communally is considered spiritual in the east. Leaving one's ego and taking up the cross or spiritual life is considered spiritual in the east. Finding the Kingdom of God or God within is considered spiritual in the east. Humbling oneself instead exulting oneself is considered spiritual in the east.

The list goes on. These are ones I havnt listed. I have just these off the top of my head. How is putting Christ's teachings into practice and realizing the insights that one gains from putting these into practice physical and overlooking Christ's spiritual aspects?

One thing that isnt spiritual in the east and that is expecting a belief in itself to be more than a means to higher spiritual realization.





Why is it that the only thing that ever truly gets emphasized about Christ and the bible is John 3:16? That he whoever believes in Christ will have eternal life? Such a Lutheran interpretation by-passes any true spirituality because the mere act of belief or faith in such a belief 'saves'.







Accepting a belief that Christ died for our sins isnt the same as being gone of the ego and being completely as guided by the holy spirit. I have seen many people convert to Christianity and still be as egotistical as ever if not more so because of the self-righteousness that they have found the true light and know the only way to salvation. I have seen many people who were not born again Christians but Buddhists, Hindus (I've been to India) or Muslim and found them to be much more God-fearing or compassionate than supposed followers of Christ. Likewise I have met Christians who were more opened minded than Buddhists etc.

My point is that getting rid of ignorance or sin and having a spiritual rebirth is universal amongst many of the higher and lower forms of religion and that the act and experience of it itself counts and not the name or label you attach to it.






Through the Catholics and Reformers alike it shows that the bible like anything else is very subject to 'peer review opinion' based on what oftentimes unstable religious zealots believe to be more spiritual.

In my view you devalue and remain fairly indifferent to many of Christs teachings and expressions to fit a view that they all lead to a mere faith in Him that saves and justifies.

I dont take a few isolated incidents I simply have a more metaphysical and symbolical approach. I personally believe Jesus hung out with tax collectors and sinners because like any truly spiritual person he was aware that they too had the light of the true Light that lighteth every man who cometh into the world. Everyone has a spiritual potential and to look down on anybody is to show lack of humility and humility is the pinnacle of true spirituality.

Would you become a pilgrim on the road of Love?
The first condition is that you make yourself humble as dust and ashes.

---Ansari of Herat

I disagree, to an extent at least. There is always an element of doubt when you simply "take someones word for it". But when I get married (assuming I do), I will take it on Faith (Trust) that when my wife says her vows she means them and will keep them. Of course, I may find out that this Faith was misplaced. But that faith (trusting her words) at the time is based on experience, not on "hope" or something I can't see.

I suppose it depends on where you live. Faith alone saves. But Faith without works is dead. Both statements are true.

"Depends on how you interpret him"???? Paul does emphasise the importance of Faith (eg, Ephesians 2:8-10 - my favourite Bible verse, btw), but even that verse focuses on being prepared for good works. Try Romans 6 for starters:

Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?...... In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Romans 6:1-2, 11.

These are just three verses from that chapter, but I would highly recommend reading it. It leaves us in no doubt that Paul preached that Faith alone saved, but our works showed our Faith.

Only to an extent this is true. Faith requires repentance, and repentance requires one to turn around and follow God. If one has not done this, therefore not showing good works, then what value is their Faith? If I said to you "the building is on fire, we've got to get out", and you said, "Yes, PA, I trust you", but then didn't do anything, was that Trust/Faith in my comment really accurate, or was it just "lip service"?

It's a popular verse. I hardly ever use it myself. I prefer ephesians 2:8-10. As a Christian for 8 years now (or thereabouts) I have not seen any particular passage "emphasised" more than any other.

The Bible can be read to mean anything, interpreted many different ways. But it's also true that some interpretations are better than others. While I respect Luther in that he was willing to speak out against the RCC, I do not think he is a good role model as a Christian.

All the best,

He certainly wasn't


Luther was a man full of contradictions; a man who supposedly made a clean break with Catholicism, but ferociously hung onto some of the most blatant Roman Catholic heretical practices; a man that called the pope the Antichrist, but still offered to submit himself and his churches to the pope nearly 30 years after he nailed his theses to church door in Wittenberg; a man that liked to talk about the love of Christ, but yet produced such hateful writings that they became of tools in the hands of the Nazis to justify the murder of millions of Jews and physically & mentally handicapped in Hitler's holocaust; the first man to translate a complete Bible into his own language from the Greek manuscripts, but a man that used his last breaths chanting verses in Latin from the corrupt Roman Catholic Vulgate Bible; a man who called for those in his churches to stop worshipping Mary, but who wrote a book praising her with almost Catholic fervor; a man that became the symbolic head of Protestantism, yet a man that was buried, at his request, with a Catholic rosary clutched in his hands.
http://www.apostolicchristianchurch.org/Pa...tin%20Luther.ht

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For Yours is the kingdom
and the power
and the glory forever.
Amen.

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


.....I am drawn again to the Sermon On the Mount; and have only posted fragments of it on here. Like I said, I view Christianity as an INNER transformative experience, not necessarily calling on the name of Jesus. I mean this reads like an action plan, not get down on your knees, worship me or you burn in hell. Sure, I view Christ as the Son Of God, but I believe you can get to him by the example in the life that you lead. If you follow these teachings WITHOUT expressing Christ, I think all will be well with your soul. This to me is a blueprint for breaking the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. You're walking with God by embracing these teachings, regardless of the concept of God you believe in. People who say Jesus is the only way are putting what is vast and infinite into a little box. The Dali Lama is a better Christian than a lot of your churchgoers.

I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
The Way=following the PATH of Christ; His walk through the streets with the Cross on His back is symbolic of our spiritual journey. The Cross represents space and time, which we are all crucified upon. This is our spiritual burden, to carry this cross on our back through life for the soul to gain in:
Truth=that the light of God is in ALL of us, despite creed or belief. We are spiritual beings, one with the creator, in a fallen state. We are here so that the soul can develop and learn again what it has lost.
The Life=which ends with everlasting life, the cycle of birth and rebirth broken. When the ego is beaten, we return to the state of gnosis, where we were with God from the beginning.

And it amazes me that people still cling to his interpretation of scripture as though they were the way God wanted them to be interpreted. You think Luther was bad, so was Calvin and all the other non-mystic reformers.

Very well put! I agree with it all. Might I add though that when you wrote:

The Life=which ends with everlasting life, the cycle of birth and rebirth broken. When the ego is beaten, we return to the state of gnosis, where we were with God from the beginning.

This also means that quite possibly one becomes a manifest Christ in their own right to do what Christ himself did all those years ago, that is help others realize that they too are potential God incarnates.

As per PA's earlier comment:

John 14

1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.
5 Thomas said to him, Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?
6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me.

That's pretty definitive, wouldn't you say?

But you still cant see that she wont dump you. Hence there is uncertainty. Knowing is knowing.



I am not saying there isnt faith, what I am saying is faith in a particular belief system that Christ died for our sins isnt necessary, because until we are enlightened we are always gonna be in some measure of doubt (on whatever one's theology is). I am saying that faith alone in itself doesnt justify. Hence I, like Paul believe that only when one becomes spiritually minded that one truly has life and if not is in death. Faith in a particular belief system doesnt do this but hard spiritual labour does. Anyone can embrace a belief system not everyone can practice it. Hence why I said 'depends on how you interpret him' because many interpret him to mean that doing good things from the heart counts for nothing if it isnt energized by an absolute faith in christ as our one and only savior. I dont interpret him this way.

For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. ---Ephesians 2:8-9

I interpret this as God through his grace saves us and not our own egos (Not of works, lest any man should boast) and that one ought to rely on God and God alone (which cannot be done by a mere belief in itself but by prayer, charity, humility) saves or illumines us. It isnt the belief in a historical Christ as our savior that saves (in my view) but the humility that something infinite and worthy of worship regardless whether it be called Krishna or Christ is that which brings salvation or enlightenment. Such a force of love is first looked upon by us through our faith that it is there or through a spontaneous direct experience of it without a previous faith, and, from there on do spiritual practices and offer all our acts to God which in turn brings us closer to the force of love or God. I personally think this is a more better interpretation and fits nicely with James:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. --- James 2:24






What if someone was loving and completely selfless to all people and animals in a way which exceeds the rightiousness of the pharisees but believes that Allah loves them and that Allah is their God?

Would this reflect a God worthy faith?





As much as I like you and think you are a great bloke and also a fair moderator, you are right that you and me will never agree.

No. I and other Christians interpret that to mean that only through Christ means only through practicing his teachings (which more or less correspond exactly with various mystic traditions throughout the world) and also through the guidence of the light, which is of the true Light (atman in my view) that lighteth every man that cometh into the world, one finds oneness with the Godhead.

It must be noted that with metaphysical or religious writings many of them speak on many levels which can be interpreted in many ways.

Oh yeah, absolutely, my friend. I've read in past life hypnosis studies about how we too can eventually become spirit guides ourselves, and that sometimes, we will choose to incarnate on the material plane to help others SPECIFICALLY. That's essentially how the Tibetans view the Dali Lama. He has already reached nirvana, has no need to incarnate himself, he has broken the cycle, but does so to assist others in breaking the cycle.

You know how they test for the Lamas......showing children items and asking them "Which of these items belongs to you?" (which oddly enough happened to John Locke on a recent episode of Lost, I really liked that scene because its exactly what they do); the lama knows which items belonged to him because his soul has truly evolved to the point of nirvana, he is actually aware of his past lives, while we are not. The Dali Lama is the most profound example I can think of that validates your point. And a good point it is. He comes back to enlighten others, and that's it.

And John 5?

22 Moreover, the Father judges no-one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him.

I understand the point you're trying to make, that being good gets you into Heaven. As far as I can see, there's no scriptural support for that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. How, for example, do people that don't believe in Jesus get their sins forgiven? Who do they ask?

Since we're noting things, it should also be noted that your definition of a Christian as being someone that doesn't necessarily believe in Christ, but follows his teachings, clashes with the Nicene Creed - the earliest definition of core Christian beliefs.

""If I put Christs teachings into practice but dont believe he is the one and only savior then does my house still fall?""

Yes you fall. Then it is like empty words.... or your doing without feeling it within......

We will never be perfect as the Father in heaven. But it makes us a solid person with a solid foundation by his followings...

We must walk the walk...AND talk the talk....

The good works dont bring the salvation. Its the works of the heart that do...even better when they are also the works of the Lord.

Doing without beleiving is like not doing at all. Its the heart that counts...it has to come from there, and for Him. To please Him.
Dont do to please us, but Him.