I am a non-believer. I don't believe in God and I don't believe in the afterlife. Everything I say is from the perspective of a non-believer contemplating the implications and meanings of an afterlife. Everything I say is blatant speculation and derives from no religion nor any private beliefs.

Believers in God or any form of life after death always have one thing in common, and that is the belief of punishment and reward. The afterlife is such serious business and I just don't understand why. If things are finite, such as our existence here on Earth, then our existence is ultimately gloomy. I am always asked why I would wish to hold such a gloomy outlook on the world, but I return the question as to why do you? Eternal bliss for the good and eternal punishment for the bad? Even just some punishment, any punishment at all. Why? I think it is a very important moral question to ask whether someone believes a person like Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden deserves an eternal punishment or Hell. If you answer yes then I don't think you are a moral person. It's different here on Earth with our finite existence. People like Hitler and Bin Laden deserve severe punishment for the sake of our civilization and survival. But when we get to infinity, it changes in my eyes. No person, no matter what they have ever done and no matter what they believe deserves eternal punishment or Hell.

Now, for those of you who believe that our place here on Earth is some sort of sorting process for God, and that the bad must be punished and thrown away; you have a seriously disturbing and gloomy outlook on everything. If I am to grant the existence of the afterlife and/or God then I am must assume that the existence of these two concepts must certainly not be gloomy.

Finite = Ultimately gloomy.
Infinite = Ultimately happy (Hopefully).

For God not to be gloomy and/or mean then he must not judge anything. If he punishes anyone then he is not a nice God. If he puts us on Earth for any reason other than our own entertainment then he is not a nice God. So, the only way I can rationalize our meaning for existing here on Earth in light of the existence of God is that he must have made it for our entertainment; a sort of game. But the reasoning for a God to create this Universe, especially in the way it was made does not make sense to me. I think that it is much more likely that other souls created this Universe instead.

Now because contemplating God is an impossibility I will put him in the background from now on. It is also nearly an impossibility to contemplate how the afterlife would be and how souls would be, but it's certainly a degree easier than God. So now imagine that you are a soul up in the afterlife. You get to live forever in a supposed Utopian-like society/world. Let's say that some soul made a game kind of like an MMORPG, but on a whole other level. Imagine our existence here is that game. If you were a soul, wouldn't you play it?

Whether or not our existence here is anything comparable to what I just wrote does not seem to matter to me. For the sake of things being ultimately happy, this existence must be nothing but for our own entertainment; for fun. Of course if we knew that this was all just for our entertainment, it would ruin the whole thing. Whatever made this Universe wouldn't want us to know that it was made. Ultimately, everything we do here, whether good or bad means absolutely nothing. It's all trivial; an eternal afterlife awaits. Hitler should be laughing with the Jews and all the like. If the afterlife exists it should not be serious business.

If it's any other way then I wish it not to exist. Thoughts?

the idea that all beleivers all have one thing in common is to general for me. im only speaking for myself and i think there is alot more past what we have come to know. i think classifications and stereotypes arent very friendly. i dont beleive in punishment and reward. i beleive we are here to learn. here for the experience.

contemplating gods nature or what else is out there is something we dont have the capacity to understand or explain.

no offence but i think its your interpritation of beleivers that holds the flaw not the 'gloom'.

this isnt serious business its quiet the opposite.

i think you are right in saying that hitler will be laughing with the jews. i think when we all die we will go back to being completley peaceful and accepting.

peace

My understanding of the bible is this. If we follow god we have eternal life. If we choose not to do this, we die and our body and soul are destroyed. So no, a just god does not punish sinners in hell eternally.

"Nice! what sort of word is that?" my old english teacher used to yell at me 40 years ago.

I dont think god is nice. But he's not meant to be nice. He is loving, and he is just.

To be just, he must make judgements. Because he is love ,those judgements are tempered . He will punish, yet still love those he punishes (the bible talks about gods extreme reluctance to punish evil doers and the pain it causes him.)

But sometimes a loving parent /creator,must punish and sanction people/nations who are doing great harm, both to humanity in general and to his chosen people(in OT times)
A lot of what god allows can be seen as pure natural consequences for stupid /dangerous/or even downright evil behaviour. Today, we are so molly coddled, we dont even like the idea of our children suffering natural consequences for their behaviour, and try to protect them. Ultimately this often creates tragic costs to those we wanted to protect.

God is wiser than that. He teaches, warns and guides, but if willful, errant behaviour continues and threatens good, then he will intervene. He will protect where necessary and punish where needed.

As to happiness I have lived a life without gods physical presence, and with it. I was very happy without it, but that was the happinesss of ignorance. The happiness that comes through living with god in your daily presence is something so incomparably joyfull i find it hard to express to a non believer.

No worries, no cares, no hate, no fear. And a state of euphoria (so far sustained for at least a couple of decades) which most people only discover through drugs or extremely good sex:)
Just one example.

Our 4 whel drive developed an electrical fault the other day . Smoke came in through the vents and eventually i found the entire main wiring had been burned out. The electrician quoted $1000 dollars. That was money i did not have, but god has always looked after us so i asked him to fix it, in faith.

God told me it would be ok but i did not understand why/how. When I explained to the electrician however ,he said. "Mr walker you are an honest man, and known in the community as such, thank you for explaining your situation honestly."Ill do the work . You pay me what you can when its finished and then just pay me as you can afford it ".

So, not only was god correct, but in fact my relationship with god and his influence on my character and reputation actually was the cause of the problem being solved in practical terms. Something im sure god could see coming, all along.

I don't believe anyone is punished or rewarded . No hell since all goes according to Gods plan and 'heaven' isn't a reward it's for lack of another word - home. we all go home. That goes for Hitler , bin laden , bush , Mother Teresa , Jesus , Buddha , Me , you , and a dog named Boo, ect .................

who's to say we aren't already playing an Massively multiplayer online role-playing game ?

and who says we have to be serious in the 'after life '? I intend to see one kick azz comedy club ! All the greats ! why not laugh in 'heaven' ? Gods got a great sense of humor.

The answer is simple. There is no life after death. Once the mechanics of the human body ceases to function all cognitive functions are switched off.

The belief in a magical, non science related fantasy being (referred to as the soul) is simply a product produced by the fear of death. No one wants to die, so comfort is found in a belief of a non existent appendage.

Death is truly nothingness. Ironically, eternal existence in heaven only exists while the believer is still alive.

If I might play the Devil's Advocate here, there's no way to know if "nothingness" is an accurate assessment of death either. The reality is that no one really knows what takes place after death.

You are corect , Father (God) does not judge us, we judge our own progress as infinate spirits created by infinate spirit. Father loves us all unconditionally.

Only thing is it is not a game, it is an education of the highest kine (Coming down incarnate)

Those who have hurt their brother on Earth will get a serious case of acountability after this life, This acountability will make one feel unworthy to enter what many call Heaven , Or Join with Fathers love light.

Hitler is a dim spark in the dark right now, suffering what he did over and over, like a repentant child of God, or love.

At the end of this world, if he has not forgiven himself, and is able to move on To another world , he will be reabsorbed back in to the firmament, (Pure Love) from which all spirit is created.
No pain, as if one never was , with no recolection of past lives.

This is done out of Love for the sufferage of the spirit damning himself.

Forgiveness is key. If we can't forgive our self, or our neighbor, then we automatically think God our father and Mother cant forgive us and the vicious circle of No forgiveness goes round, untill one eventually believes he is forgiven, or he is reabsorbed Back in to the firmament at the end Of this world.

For those who continue on, there is an infinate No of worlds to choose from and be accepted to incarnate on, depending on what ones spirit needs to learn, each world Has it's own perspective heavens and states of Hell(Something you do to your self) for resting inbetween incarnations. This education continues till the end of that world then one judges itself and picks another world to experience.

The prise at some point in a spirits enlightenment is a chance to create a world of his own, with the help Of God and the universal love which creates all (Family)

Big Family.

Infinate Family.

Love Omnaka

Ps- Wonderfull post Mr Walker, and Lt Ripley. O-

And Lilly , I do know, It is understandable If you do not believe me, understand Or Know yourself.

Speaking in practical terms, what purpose would a disembodied soul (which would mainly consist of nothing more than memories of a once physical existence) serve?

To use a quirky analogy, wouldn't this be analogous to playing a CD of a recorded live performance of a band?

Also since this "soul" is no longer a part of the physical plane, then it would no longer have any contact with what we refer to as humanity. There's nothing human about it anymore.

My point is, if we do have a soul that can go to heaven, then it has nothing to do with who and what we are now.

in practical terms ? we don't know . A disembodied soul may serve alot of purposes.

the soul may no longer part of this physical plane , but there are many dimensions which may exist along side of our own that humans can't or only occasionally detect. think of it like the sense of smell or hearing === plenty dogs can detect that humans can't but they exist nonetheless.

well who we are now would be left behind . we only rent these suits and thinking.

And unfortunately, all we have is speculation.

However, my opinion will always be that of a realist.

To me the position of a realist is this, that trying to judge the existence of non-human spirits before determining the existence of human spirits is like trying to get into a physics class before learning basic math.

If you are going to study the phenomena (ghosts) than you have to actually go out an do it and not just sit and read about it because any realist knows that anyone can write anything for any reason especially if it is a frowned upon or controversial topic.

My dear, regarding ghosts I have personally debunked many alleged ghost sightings throughout the years, not by sitting on my ***, but by going out to the sites in person.

As for suggesting that I die just to find out if the soul really exists, all I can say is "You first."

Unless you consider death a freak phenomena if it occurs to you, I have not idea where you came up with this.

So, as I understand it, are you saying that the soul actually exists beyond death, even though you've never experienced this?

Point well taken. But, what if the reality is something more akin to the Buddhistic concept of karma? Karma is the only aspect of mortal beings which alone survives death according to Buddhism.



Exactly! However, all this is mere specualtion; any belief as such would still be faith based.

Yes, because I interacted with the soul of a dead person, talked to them, felt their touch, over a two hour period and had no idea they were dead until later as I had never met the person before. However, this is just so must type to anyone reading it so I do not expect to be believed, but you can believe that I do believe it all happened.

But does that really constitute what a soul is believed to be? Again with the analogies, but wouldn't that be nothing more than a memory downloaded into a completely new life? I buy a new PC, I take a disk of old saved programs and download them. My old PC which I created the programs is in the rubbish bin. The new PC can take the old programs and improve on them, but the original that created them is gone. If PCs were alive then it would be an entirely new being with the added bonus of old memories.

And once again, if souls are nothing more than memories, then what purpose do they serve? Is the afterlife meant to be a nothing more than loop of repeating memories?

If this is what you believe then who am I to argue?

I tend to agree with a more Theosophical view on this topic:
First I don't agree with anything being finite. It almost seems as if this is universal law, nothing ever ceases to be, it merely transforms into another kind of energy or matter. So, if that is indeed the case then, we too continue our path of existence after the physical body has perished.

Reward and punishment: as the soul tears itself from the physical body upon death in its return to the Soul world and also its embracing of the Spiritual World (where it wishes to be), the ease or difficulty of the soul in doing this relies on how materialistically anchored the person was during their lifetime on Earth. This in Theosophy is related to purgatory.

I don't think I was stereotyping anyone, or at least I wasn't trying to; and well if there is any kind of judgment after death, I think that's quite gloomy. You can try and twist it around all you like but in the end someone is judging or someone created the judgment system.

Whose to say there is a need for a god in the first place. If an infinitely complex and intelligent entity such as God can exist without the need to have evolved from simple beginnings or to have been created, why can't souls exist without the need of those either?

I also am a life after death person and no I don't believe in God! I simple trust in God and yes there is a huge difference.
And I total dig that wootloops you don't believe, believing is crap, beliefs are crap.

Why do say that? believing is a learning curve, the same can be said for the question of why, the question of why and learning seem to go hand and hand yet when you reach
chaos of quantum the question why becomes redundant, its a learning curve skill and peaks.

the same can be said for using the ego in our perspectives of reflection, quickest way to defeat the ego is simple change the rules, the ego is box thinking and has a per mater learning curve.
The ego does not evolve into a butterfly.

Again your only as intelligent as your observed surroundings, your study the accumulation of stored second hand information, and information changes constantly
most things in chaos of quantum require a different approach of thinking most of the information is induced. you basically have to hotwire your brain, overclock the brain in order to get to break the leaning cycle its use too. It has too become frustrated enough to understand, it has to mutate.

knowing is faster than thinking, something out there is inducing knowledge. My LAD was not the garden variety of near death experiences, I fall into the very rare experiences of chaos of quantum
basically I was suffocated in my sleep while having an all in one experience. dream/obe/lucid obe/lad. Something came into my dream and took me for a joy ride and suffocated me to death.
Dying in your sleep is not peaceful, its extreamly painful.

In essence I became part of infinity, and that was worth dying for!!!

people always make the mistake of confusing trust with believing and beliefs
its not my mistake its yours out there, just like everyone else.
I don't do believing in beliefs, I'm past that learning curve, I'm am past the box type thinking. I was an infant of infinity and infinity was my playground.
the experience is always there in my conscious that had too teach my brain how to rethink, frustration is key to jumping quantum gaps, paradigms are running in reverse engineering through life

The key to knowledge is trust. instant knowledge in the now, language of the first people.

WOW great post...the very way in which you chose to word it..only I differ a little...I believe in an energy that is responsible for all living things to evolve...we all had to have come from something...and if that energy is a god then so be it...part of me still wants to believe in god so much but then other things get in my way...like so many unanswered questions...

nothing judges. there is no judgment after death. fear often gets in the way of spiritual concepts.

to me the idea of being judged is fear based. it makes people want to be 'good' for when they get judged so their motivation is based in the fear of the judgment.

the ultimate goal is for everything to be based in love. this leaves no room for negative influences, motives or acts.

So I gather you don't believe in this judgement day thing?

i beleive in the apocalypse. i know the popular view of it couldnt be any further from the truth. so to reffer to it as 'judgment day' makes me say i dont beleive in it.

If there is no afterlife than whats the point to live? We might as well call it quits if that was the case. The truth is that are bodies are mere shells for our spirits, our spirits define who we are. We do matter'when the body dies the soul must go someplace, Christ defeated death and his gift of immortality is for all who follow him. If you aint going to heaven than theres only 1 other place for you, hell. Whats really sad is that most people will never know the truth untill its too late. If you search for the truth you will find it and the truth shall set you free.

Because it's fun .


What is Jesus supposed to be anyway? Is he God? Is he the son of God? I hear both but he can't be both. Which one is he? Maybe he was just one of the numerous other prophets walking the at the time he existed; just a man.

Just because you cant get your head around this concept dont mean it aint so.

Try accepting this duality of god and then applying logic reason and science to explain how it could be possible. You will soon see there are many ways in which god can physicallly be a trinity of 3 separate distinct elements and yet form a unified whole.

In fact, modern science is probably closer to explaining how god could physically exist in this way ,than it has ever been before. As yet these are only possibilities , but they fit current scientific theories on the nature of many other real but so far unexplained phenomena(as observed through quantum mechanics and string theory for example)

Im not really up with the science, but this discussion has been going on on other threads,

MW you quoted: "because you can't get your head around this concept don't mean it ain't so" its very fair and very valid to question hearsay and things that are taken on assumption.. As a matter of fact with the availabilty of so much primary and secondary data we can get a better understanding than even the earlier scholars (that had little access to the data we now have ) perhaps what we think we understand about god may be based on what we had available at the time of its conception....


it seem that a god that doesn't grow or evolve or change or can't be questioned can't be logically sound IMO....

what tends to happen the more educated we become the more we realize how little we know so saying thingss like "I know " is a rare phenomena indeed....

our canons tend to show the limitations of human thought and understnading (bascially the availbale data) and how narrow we become when we exclude all other disciplines IMO .....

Conceptually, there is only "Is it possible?" Sheri is correct in stating that if [G-d] and/or gods exist, then they must be in a constant state of change because everything we know of logically adheres to that principle. That being said, life after death would be possible. What life transforms to, transcends to, transfers to, et cetera, is another question--probably a much larger question.

Quick question..how come you dont type out the word GOD? is this a belief?

Sorry for taking this off topic but I would like to know

Well many mystical beliefs include the idea that if you dont name the god or spirit then it has no power over you . Perhaps thats why he/she does it.

MW I'll let Dr. Mklsgl take this one and i did get a giggle out of this...

It is a Jewish custom to write it that way out of belief that it is a sin to erase or deface the name of God. Though some believe this only applies to the name of God in Hebrew the custom has carried its way into English. Not sure if it has in other languages as well.

Indeed, -Me- you nailed it beyond that we really don't know ... or this larger question will only lead to more questions anyways .....

things i know for sure,

the more I learn the less i know, change is a fact and we are in kindergarten on what we understand as species ... ....

Geri, Clovis, Mr. Walker, et al, yes I use [G-d] because it's the way I was taught, mostly from my formative years in Hebrew School, and it is the preferred way in academia as well (the [understood] rule).

Nice post. I totally agree with EVERYTHING you've said here. Don't look at all religious concepts as punishment and reward. IMO it definetly is not so black and white. It all has to do with one's own individual karma. The soul is, as he said choosing to incarnate, because it is on a path of growth back to the Source. God is loving and just because, in the begining, we were one with the Creator, perfect spirit beings, matter was created to be but an expression of God and us, but rather than being independent of it, we became entrenched in it. The desire for individuality, the desire for self expression overcame the desire to be with God. Thus we were born into matter. Man has fallen, lost his spiritual way, and our incarnations here are part of a growth pattern to reclaim that identity. Collectively we are the Adam and Eve depicted in the Bible. There is no literal adam or eve, the fall was purely a spiritual one, this descent into matter. Rather than letting us doom ourselves God to entered flesh, becoming the perfect Adam. This is the Christ; who was created to show us the way. Christ represents the surrender of the ego on the cross of space and time, where we are bound in the material in this linear fashion. God gave us the way out. Now you are working towards that way out, whether you are a christian, a muslim, a jew, an atheist. It does not matter. ALL souls are returning to source.

I even agree with Omnaka's concept of hell, and other interplanetary sojourns. Souls DO incarnate on other worlds to learn. (Not as aliens though, mind you lol, they are purely spirit.) And hell does exist, but it is, as he said a TEMPORARY place. It is a place to go for the soul to purge itself of karma. A Hitler will spend time in hell to undo his past actions. Can he eventually be redeemed, yes, he can, though it will take many, many lives.....