Skeptics & believers

How different are we?

I believe we are ALL sceptical about something, even if we hold a faith in a god or gods, it doesn’it mean we are sceptical about other faiths, if we believed other faiths were right, then it would be pointless in following the one faith...right?

Skeptics hold beliefs of their own, those are – they believe they are right when they say – there is no god, only because they believe that is right, it feels right, it makes sense...otherwise t too is pointless in saying so

What about other things we tend to be sceptical of? IE – aliens ghosts, demons and the rest
Do we hold a right to say so? I say yes we do

If you feel we all do hold that right, then why do some of us feel fear in doing so?
I say some because I don't feel all are fearful in saying how they feel

So IE - If you feel you don’t think there is a god, you may feel fear in saying so, what gives you that fear?

IMO – I feared telling my folks...WHY? Because of the responses I would get, I fear getting blasted and hurt over it, as I saw how my dad reacted once when I told him I don’t believe in the bible.

Should I feel fear? Can’I just be like the rest of you and state what I feel is right for me?
What about the rest of you? How does it affect you?

What about believers in god........do you guys fear saying how you feel?

Do you guys feel that if you do, people will get at you and hurt you?

IF so, does this feel right? Is it fair on you?


Back to the main point of this thread..........do you believe that we are all sceptics and believers, the only thing that sets us apart is the holy faith end of it all
Believers in god...when you travel to other parts of UM and read stories from people that claim vampires are real just like on tv, do you find it silly? Are you sceptical?

I believe it is normal for ALL of us to feel sceptical and believe in anything...not just a faith

The way I look at it now, I know that in history, when some people said they don't believe in a god, they were punished, but those days are gone, people move on don't they?
So then I shouldn't feel fear...and some day wont any more

And if you think its just faith in god that can make people fear saying they don't believe , then you are mistaken...its anything...from a football team (saying you don’t believe they are that good can get you hurt in some cases lol) to myths of creatures that don’t make sense

So I ask you...just how differnt are we?

It's been said that Christians and other religious believers are atheists like us traditional atheists, it's just that the traditional atheist goes the whole hog, one God further, and eliminates them all from being probable.

For example Christians do not believe in the thousands of Gods that have been worshipped throughout the ages but like I say, we go one further and ditch that final God too.

Christians and Muslims know what it's like to disbelieve in Gods just as atheists do disbelieve.

Of course they know what it is like to be skeptical towards other gods and faiths...but it dont stop some of them from getting annoyed at anyone who is skeptical of their faith...

in general...meaning over all....

How many will be big enough to place themselves into the other side of the fence?? <---in order to do this you need to be smart and kick your ego to the one side.....if you cant do this, then you arent what you think you are

I don't feel fear in saying I don't believe in god. I see it like this; since their is no concrete evidence of a god then why believe? Funny how there is so many religions all claiming 'their way' is the one and only right way.

Socially, I think the difference is not as prominent nor as pertinent as it was in the past. As most of us know, years ago many/most cultures castigated those who fell under the 'Other' umbrella.

Now, I think most use careful discretion when speaking of [G-d] and religion, only discussing the topic when they feel they are in comfortable company because the difference between Bs and NBs is a "deal-breaker": it's a trust issue and an intellectual marker. The question which arises in NBs is "How can I reconcile this person's belief in an Imaginary Friend?"

Adding to this problematic are the numerous violent religious conflicts being waged as you read this. "How can this situation be resolved through diplomacy if we are fundamentally different?"

I think believers are annoyed with skeptics and skeptics annoyed with believers. if neither one's beliefs affected the other this board wouldn't exist.

Believers and non-believers are not so different, there are things we both believe in, and there are some things we don't. The only difference is that we disagree on the specifics. Belief, in this case, faith, is a means to make sense of our place in the greater scheme of things, and some people need more answers than others. Does that make faith a bad thing? No, I don't think so, but it can become a problem when that faith brings pressure on others to change their views. We are all entitled to believe what we want, regardless of the divine consequences that say differently. Belief in a higher power can be a good thing, it helps people stay strong in times of trouble, it helps them get through. Belief in one's self can also be a good thing, you gain courage, and are independent. I don't think those beliefs are mutually exclusive though.

Those are actually sound points. I have no fear admitting my belief in not just a God, but belief in a PERSONAL God. You shouldn't be afraid of posting your unbelief either. I mean, as you say, when you put all of that aside skeptics and believers aren't totally poles apart. One can believe in something, one can believe in nothing (as far as God is concerned). So they are both beliefs, different camps, yes, but beliefs none the less. As far as what I believe, I think that we are all one. I think the atheist is as much on a spiritual path (even though they don't know it) as a Christian, or a Muslim or whatever. I don't place one religion over another; therefore I will talk to anyone about what I believe. If someone says to me they are an atheist, I'm not one of those zealots who flip out and feel the need to save you and get you baptized or something. You are on your own journey. It is not my place to interfere.

Fundamentalists (not on here, though) have repeatedly attacked my beliefs. How can I profess to believe in Jesus, yet believe in reincarnation? How can I love the Bible, but love the Upinishads just as much? How can I not believe in Hell (at least the way the fundamentalists do?) I have even known fundamentalists who wouldn't pray with me because they thought I was under 'demonic influence'. But you know what? I don't care. I realize my beliefs are not the norm; I'm like a Hindu Christian Buddhist if that makes any sense. But yet I won't hesitate to tell people what I believe because my faith in God is strong. And as I said, I won't judge anyone based on their beliefs or lack there of. We're all on different paths, and while sure, it can be fun to debate each other, in reality we should just respect what others think and mind our own business. It bothers me the way I see fanatics treat atheists, homosexuals and so on. Its disturbing. You profess a religion of love, yet you love no one? How is that possible?

There shouldn't be these battle lines between atheists and believers. Its arrogance on the part of same atheists for mocking believer's faiths, as well as intolerance for Christians and others to mock the unbelief of atheists. We all want to be arrogant and we all want to be right. Its our base nature of the ego. But such attitudes are purely ridiculous from both camps.

Quite right


I may not hold the same faith I used to...in fact if anyone had of told me - BM soon you will loose faith....<--I wouldnt have believed them I would have gotten annoyed over it and thought..who do they think they are??

But faith in a god can be great..it seems to help people ...just in the same way lack of faith helps others to see how things are...they dont need a faith to be a good person, I believe ALL dont need a faith to be a good person I believe those that have a faith are naturally good...but their faith makes them happy..so thats what really matters doesn't it?


YUP true..it would be borring..but need we all be annoyed all the time?? people can disagree without being annoyed, this goes for me too..but see saying it is one thing, doing it is another

NOT aimed at anyone...meaning in general..I find that even in real life...when someone finds themselves stuck for a reply and get annoyed because the other one has placed them in that position...they run from it and later complain that they are victims....does this help them any? nope...it just makes it remain the way it is and in many cases can make it harder

facing problems isnt easy but when you do it...its a step in the right direction...I try and not run from problems...pushing them to one side and complining because I can't answer is only making me worse off...I should know I am guilty of it and learnt from it...so has my partner, although he still likes to sweep problems under the rug, thinking they will just go away
Since when has dirt from under a rug went away without clearing it up <---HA I just made that up just now...hmmm LOL (note to self use this next time you and gary get in a one to one lol)

One thing I must admit that helped keep me away from the christian faith was from some those that showed arrogance towards my personal beleif in god....when I saw this, I often thought, is this what their faith teaches them? to be arrogant and try and hurt people that arent like them...and so I felt put off...I didnt want to belong to that, and one of the most important people in my life did it too...my mother...it hurts and it sure helped put me off it all
I felt it was wrong <---was past feelings

NOW..well now that I told some people I was mad at god only because I so loved and trusted in god...I felt let down..its natural to feel this way when any loved one lets you down, it's obvious you will feel hurt....but heres the thing...the strangest thing is...I found myself not feeling the same way with the christian faith as I once did...for some reason I found myself listening more and more

please dont ask me why LOL I dont know why

I like this pov...this always makes me think of the Santa story you might like this for futurie reference how we can use these stories to teach things lol anyways to continue,.Mattys BF just recently at 10 let go of his belief in Santa, even though his friend was told by everyone including his parents there was no Santa, for him there still was a Santa..after many tried to get him to 'see' there was no santa, mattys friend stuck to the idea there was, he had so much evidence he felt so he just ' knew' (sound familiar lol) .....what we see is the limits of how we construct the world by whats in our heads, our sensory systems take in only about a fraction of the energy that envelops us transforming them into perceptions that create meaning an how attached to ideas we becomne especailly present bringing fuzzy bear beliefs or beleifs that are accredited for creating some huge positive change or some great reward is attached to a beleif or it allevaites some fear generally (the death one...).

(of course I saw this as a amazing opp. to introduce this to my son in a frame way he could relate and learn abit about his thinking apparatus.... )( and your post reminded me to ask his firend why he hung on to the belief I love asking kids this, they have simple cut and dry responses generally)

I liked that story you just shared Sheri...it reminded me of when I found out there was no santa...I found out the hard way..at 5 would you beleive...LOL I caught my dad playing santa when I had sneaked down to take a peep on christmas eve and for some reason even when my dad tried to convince me the usual - ehhhh im just santas helper!! ,-- I didnt fall for it I think I just KNEW there was no santa lol

matty was 5 also , he just said to me one day on the ride to kinder.... 'are you and dad Santa,? I said "yes( I am sure his brother dropped alot of hints lol) are you okay with that.." he said, 'yes it makes things easier i can just ask you for what i want now...."

i also was about 5 and was devastated when I found out and then the if that isn't true what else isn't true' became my main lifes quest....it was then a hop skip and a jump to skeptic.....lol

I think most people are a mix of the two of course, I am pretty sure most of us have unproven flights of fancy occasionally. You can't always be assessing your own beliefs, sometimes they just sneak in and stay there for a while and you don't even know they are unfounded or aren't really built on anything firm.

This section of the board dichotomises us, but I don't think it is really that cut and dried.

Agreed

I'm still trying to figure out what I believe exactly, through life's trials, the ups and downs, through experiences shared and personal. Thats the good (and bad) thing about belief, it can change.

I agree. we grow , we experience , we change back and forth. some more than others. but I don't know of anyone personally who hasn't wrestled with faith in some kind of manner eventually.

Not at all. Skeptic and Believer are just two labels. Everyone is a skeptic (of something) and everyone is a Believer (in something). Thus, the two are the same. There are no skeptics, and there are no believers. There are only people.

Kaizen-on this website, believer=xian, skeptic=atheist. Jews like yourself, and new-agers like me are ignored. Try not to intellectualize and it will make sense. Most of the folks on this site don't know what a Jew is, or anything about Jews other than what their minister shoves down their waiting throats like cough syrup to a sick baby.

Whether that minister be a Ted Haggard or a Richard Dawkins...

As brutally blunt as that this, I would have to agree.

Hey GID...Copernicus called, he said - you arent the centre of the universe...and to add neither is religion LOL


But I will add this...going on your words and how you worded it...I am not going to tell you what and how to feel..but just wanted to add - I believe christians are not at fault for this lack of Jewish faith understanding....the majority of christians in todays world were taught the bible and its not as if most had a choice...it was fed to them and yea a lot grew to love it
But does that make them wrong?? does it make them ignorant when it comes to learning about Jewish faith?? My answer is NO...I dont think they are to blame

You say most folks on this site don't know what a jew is...........I dunno if I could agree...I think everyone knows what a jew is..just because we all dont know the ins and outs of their faith, doesnt mean we don't have a notion on what a jew is

If you were never ever exposed to the jewish faith EVER (like I was)...then are you to blame for lack of understanding??

I don't think the christians are to blame, nor the ministers or preists..after all ministers and preists have had it put on to them, its all they knew....

Is it my fault that I have grown up ina country that it is rare to even spot a jewish person?? no im not, but I do know that christianity came from the jewish faith..

ohh and just last thing GID....


Believer on this board = ANYONE that follows any faith...Skeptics are those who dont

but I made a point in saying we are all pretty much a like

In a way it is true. Conflict of belief in America stems mostly from the Theist/Atheist debate. Those of us that hold different views are pushed into the category called "other" on the polls, and not really given much attention. All the same, as from what I can tell Deists don't exactly make up a large chunk of the population.

Lol, My life's goal is to "intellectualize" as many people as draconicly possible.

Really? I always think the skeptic side in these debates is usually composed of people who usually aren't professed atheists. Lots of pagans, agnostics, personal god people, deists, theists (one day I will learn the difference). I thought it rarely came down to Christian vs atheist.

I always hope these deist/theists/personal god folk will start a thread so we can get them too!!! Come on, tell us WHY?!?

just jokes, I like all of you

I don't like being an "other"...

Lets hope that some fine day you might get one person to actually join you in that spiritial journey

I actually have a team of people, we're just too spread out to have a major effect for what we wish to accomplish. But we do little things in our communities.

Size doesn't matter Kaizen. A small group can accomplish wonderful things. Small things in the community can have a major affect, even if in just a few people's lives =]



Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out.
-Robert Collier

So there is a team of COI's? what boy scout team did you pinch them from? sorry im really just playing...

Seriously if you have well good wish you the best of luck....

Of course, I wanted to jump into this thread and say "I'm a believer and a skeptic."

When I really thought about it (sometimes that happens) I realized that what I am is.... Critical.

When I was an atheist, I was critical of the belief, now that I could be considered a "believer" I'm STILL critical of what I believe. I'm not unsure of what I believe, but I am critical of what I believe and keeping that certain level of criticsm at hand ensures that I never step in an unwanted direction.

Does that make sense?

you guys knew exactly what I meant.

That MW makes perfect sense and you arent alone and never will be

EVER!

I don't believe that there is a single believer that has not ever questioned their faith and felt off in some point......I know look at me now...need I say more?

Pity you have a chip on your shoulder...maybe some day you might let go

Did I say I was angry?

I didn't claim you said you was angry...I only made a point from the style of your post...the whole they dont know what a jew is and how you described spreading faith as like throwing cough medicine down a babys throat <--sounded like you have a chip on your shoulder

But thats just what I picked up...you can disagree thats ok...im not going to get at you LOL

makes sense to me !

I'll have to go with the general concensus and sugggest that there is no such thing as a total believer or total non-believer. We all have things we take to believe or not believe. There is a possible exception - Nihilism. Nihilists reject all things. Reality is an illusion in many ways. But then, one could argue that a complete belief in absolutely nothing is a belief in itself. *though to be fair, in practice, I do not think you will find many total Nihilists (probably too negative to be attenable), though perhaps to certain degrees you will find some like this.

Just thought I'd share

why are many so ready to label themselves?? beleifs are tools at best IMo....you can live a life beyond beleifs and derive value from things or not, you can question and not have to be labled a skeptic questioning is natural .......many treat beleifs as loved ones as if you have to buy the car to drive it .. they are marketed like objects, IMO this is the error............ ..

Oh, I don't think it's a matter of questioning the faith... I don't really do that, but I do evaluate it, ask myself whether what I'm hearing is true, in the best interest of myself and others. I don't think faith is a set "thing" I believe it to be ever evolving and changing. We have to evolved and change with it in the most responsible way.

It's a very very subtle distinction and difference... most people don't see it the way I do though.

I hear ya

One who even has faith often feels let down and wrestles with doubt. It sort of goes with the territory. As far as those Christians go, there is just such a difference between religious people and spiritual ones. I'm not putting on a pedestal, but religious people, those who are all about church typically are the ones who shove their beliefs down your throat. I've met a lot of christians who are not that way too.

except I'd add/ that its after 'the questions' we make the judgments decide if something is 'faith ' worthy ' if you will ..

i am aware that many relgious writers have insisted that scripture, encounters are so transparent, so obvious and apparent that one would automatically be faitful as the only option.. yet faith is basically an agreement to the idea and by default it renders the counter obsolete..

I think that there can be moments we just know but they are very rare because they are recognized based on experince or expertise..and most of these faithful moments start when we meet diety ironically eg thru church the bible childhood exposure etc ) a member said you eventually come to except this is the case.. culture plays a huge part in this as well as conditioning....so is anyone truly faithful i'd argue probably not... (.i'd want to know how they are defining faithful)

Just my 2 cents mw not at you personally, your post provided a frame for my comments ..............

I believe that many of these christians don't see it that way..allow me to try and explain...

When it comes to being all hooked on church going and making points in saying how that is what makes a christians be a christian....<---maybe they believe this because others have convinced them that's just how it is, therefore they don't think their words can upset others who are christian...I have seen it happen on here a few times before...ye know the whole - look im a christian, I KNOW god, I talk to god, and I am a real christian because I attend church ... <--placing themselves up on that big pedestal above other christians...trouble is, they don't see it....ohh yeaa you will hear the odd one or two claim its not all about going to a church...but going to a church is still part of the 'true christian' criteria lol

Or when it does look as though they are shoving their faith down a persons throat....a lot of these christians don't see it as shoving...they believe they are doing what they are meant to do, and they like to call it - sharring faith and some call it - just advising <---advising someone is still trying to get them to go your way...not allowing them to think for themselves what they think is right

Look at it this way...you wouldn't pas on advice if you didn't wish for the person to take it on board and use it...now would ya?? LOL but they don't like to see it that way...or maybe I should re-word it to - they don't see it like that at all <--take your pick, but you will get the drift

lol yeaa and do you know what OTHER christians think of these kind of christians that don't do it?? they look at them as though they aren't true christians at all...LMAO....

MW if you are asking yourself whether or not what you are hearing is true <--that itself is not much different from questioning the faith itself....it's called taking a second look at what you hear and wondering about it...so to wonder, you may question it and wonder - is this really true?? to me that's the same kind of thing

sorry but at least thats how I see it....

I'm in. I've been trying to do this for several decades now--without much success.

Gideon: 2 Fingers on this pulse, once again and as always!

I know that's how you see it. You're quite black and white on this topic, and you're not alone. There's a refreshing quality in that.

Oddly, I'm black and white about a lot of things... faith is not one of them. I see it as extremely fluid, gray, and it ebbs and flows -- and it requires a lot of critical thought.

I know that there are a few things that are universal truths in the world. I can use those universal truths to guage whether or not what I'm hearing fits within what I know to be universally true already. If it doesn't fit, it's probably not true OR needs to be reevaluated in new light.

I know, it's gray, it's fluid, it's NOT black and white. It's a VERY difficult concept for some types of people to deal with. Which, would probably explain why there aren't a whole lot of people lining up to join in with my faith. LOL

excellent move Geri, great question...... but i'd add what is 'true' and how do we know..,


In religion, IMO there is no standard for which truth is derived from or one that i find applicable ( they almost all but exclude scientific methods of critical analysis( I am specifiying the fundementalist posit in particular, not the critcal approach to the bible.....) in favor of faith, i get this is religion I do not find this practical perssonally.... )IMO this is one of the ways (faith) its really easy for many one to follow bad ideas and not even realize what a bad idea is....

(note by fundementalsit I mean when the bible is the authority and the word of god and taken as literal faith being the operative word here....).

I would venture to say that those who are least religious are the ones who will try to "shove their religion down your throat". These are the people who disrespectfully and ignorantly yell their beliefs at you while at the same time not listening. They are insecure, they lack the confidence that should come with a religious faith. They feel they have to push it on you to so that they are not led to leave their beliefs.

A friend of mine once said, "I will not logically consider any other beliefs than those I was raised with because I know that if I do that I will not believe what I was raised to believe."


I have learned over time that people don't think (logically about philosophical/religious matters). Thinking is uncomfortable. People like to be comfortable, thus, people normally don't put to much questioning into that which makes them comfortable. I like to make people uncomfortable because I like to make people think. That of course has gotten me to be labeled as one who "shoves my beliefs" or as one who is an "obnoxious" person. However, I think its sad that someone will tell me what I should believe when they don't know anything about what it is they believe.

The intellectual religious believer (the one who knows what he/she believes and is confident) will not give you the impression of shoving their religion down your throat. Yes, they are doing the same thing as the ignorant believer. They are proselytizing you. However, the intellectual religious believer does it in such as a way so as not to convey an over-bearing foolish attitude. The intellectual believer delivers his/her opinion with tact and doesn't offend many people at all (except for those with no values).

In any case, to say that the "shovers" are overly religious is just ridiculous because I would bet that 100% of all the people who shove their beliefs do not know more than what someone else has told them, they don't know the book they believe in, and they most certainly don't know the God who's name they profess. These people are merely ignorant, impotent, foolishly, illogical people who do not deserve to be listened to and instead should be directed to someone who does actually know what they're talking about.

excellent point !

I was once stopped in the streets of the city I live in by a believer of God. She wanted to explain to me about the faith and I replied in Danish.

"I am a friend of religion, and a friend of your God, but Truth is my greater friend."

My point is that I find it to be nonesense to use as a defence to shovel your belief down other peoples throat if all you have to justify it is that I don't know what it is you believe in. That is what I would call to underestimate the common person, they most likely disbelieve because they know enough.