.....I've really enjoyed being a part of this forum. Everyone seems really cool, and there are some wonderful, highly spirited debates. I've noticed, lately, in my own posts that I've been commenting quite a bit on various threads about the origins, and the fall of man. Each debate is different, some are evolution vs. creationism, others are heartfelt questions, such as, if there is a God why did He create us to suffer? And the ever raging debate of free will vs. predestination. If you search through some of my recent posts you'll see that I'm almost repeating myself in certain cases. That is precisely why I've decided to start my own cohesive thread, on what I believe, to be more or less, the story of our beginings. I invite anyone of any belief to share their opinions based on what I have shared, or your own opinions on our spiritual as well as physical origins.

This is an extract from the Edgar Cayce readings, and IMHO, offers very deep insight into who we really are and where we came from. Even if you don't agree with it, however, I think you can learn certain things from it......I realize its really long, but bear with me. Its a good read.

"People usually demand a beginning, so in the beginning there was a sea of spirit and it filled all of space. The spirit was static, content, and aware of itself. It was a giant resting on the bosom of its thought and contemplating what it is.

Then the spirit moved into action. It withdrew into itself until all of space was empty. In the center, the restless mind of the spirit shone. This was the beginning of the individuality of the spirit. This was what the spirit discovered itself to be when it awakened. This spirit was God.

God desired self-expression and desired companionship; therefore, God projected the cosmos and souls. The cosmos was built with music, arithmetic, geometry, harmony, system, and balance. The building blocks were all of the same material - the life essence.

Each design carried within it the plan for its evolution.

Everything assumed its design in various forms and their activity resulted in the law of attraction and repulsion. All forms would attract and repel each other in their evolutionary dance.

All things are a part of God and an expression of God's thought. The Mind of God was the force which propelled and perpetuated these thoughts. All minds, as thoughts of God, do everything God imagined. Everything that came into being is an aspect of the One Mind.

The souls of individuals were created for companionship with God (the Whole). The pattern that God used to create souls was the pattern of God's own Spirit. The spirit is life. From the spirit, the mind builds patterns. From the mind, the physical creation is the result. This is how the spirit, the mind, and individuality, became the pattern for souls. This is how cause, action, and effect became the pattern for everything. First there was the spirit (the first cause); then there was the action which withdrew spirit into itself; then there was the resulting individuality of God.

The spirit of the individual existed before their soul was created. The spirit keeps the knowledge of its identity with God. The soul has the ability to experience the activities of the mind in a manner separate from God.

Thus, new individuals issued from God and remained dependent upon God; but individuals were also aware of an existence apart from God. Individuals were given the power to choose and direct their own activity. Without free will, it would only remain a part of the individuality of God. The mind, issuing as a force from God, would naturally fulfill God's thoughts, unless directed otherwise. The power to do this - to direct the force of mind individually from God - is free will. And the record or memory of this freedom is the soul. The soul began with its first expression of free will through the force of mind. The first thought that the spirit generated of free will (i.e., the first diversion of the force of mind from its normal path of unity with God) was the beginning of the soul.

The nucleus of the soul was the balance of positive and negative forces that are equal in power. These forces produce harmonious activities: the positive initiating, impregnating, and thrusting forward; the negative receiving, nourishing, and ejecting. The steps of this evolutionary process are also the stages of the thought process: perception, reflection, and opinion.

Thus, the soul consists of two states of consciousness: (1) the spirit which bears a knowledge of its identity with God, and (2) the soul which bears a knowledge of everything it experienced.

The plan for the soul is a cycle of experience that is unlimited in scope and duration. Through this evolutionary cycle, the soul will come to know the creation in all its aspects at the discretion of the will. The cycle would be completed when the desire of the will was no longer different from the thought of God. The consciousness of the soul would then merge with its spiritual consciousness of its identity with God. Then the soul will return to its source as the companion it was intended to be.

As a companion, the soul would remain conscious of its separate individuality and would be aware of its own free will as it now acted as a part of God, but not diverting its mind because it was in agreement with God's influence on the mind of the soul. Until this state of at-one-ment was reached, the soul would not be a companion in the true sense of the word.

The idea that returning to God means a loss of individuality is paradoxical, since God is aware of everything that happens and must therefore be aware of the consciousness of each individual. The return of the soul is the return of the image to that which imagined it. The consciousness of the individual - its soul record - could not be destroyed without destroying a part of God. When a soul returns to God it becomes aware of itself not only as a part of God, but as a part of every other soul, and everything.

What is lost is the ego - the desire to do other than the desire of God. When the soul returns to God, the ego is voluntarily relinquished. This is the symbology behind the crucifixion of Christ.

The plan for the soul included experiencing of all creation, but it did not necessarily mean participating in all forms and substance. Nor did it mean that souls can interfere with the creation. Nor did it mean that souls are to spin their own little worlds, twisting and bending laws to make images of their dreams.

But these things could happen. The soul was the greatest thing that God made because it has free will. Once free will was given, God did nothing to curb it. However it acted, it had to act within God's reality. By whatever route, the soul will return to God.

The fact that the human body is a speck of dust on a small planet in a universe of galaxies can lead to the illusion that humans are a small creation. But the soul is the unlimited activity of the mind and the grandeur of imagination.

At first there was little difference between the consciousness of the new individual (i.e., soul) and its consciousness of identity with God (i.e., spirit). Souls merely watched the flow of the Mind, somewhat as people daydreaming, marveling at its power and versatility. Then souls began to act itself, imitating and paralleling what Mind was doing. Gradually souls acquired experience, becoming a complementary rather than an imitative force. It helped to extend, modify, and regulate creation.

Certain souls became aggressive with their own power and began to experiment with it. They mingled with the dust of the stars and the winds of the spheres - feeling them - and becoming part of them. One result of this was an unbalance between the positive and negative forces. To feel things demanded the negative force. To express through things (and directing and managing them) required the positive force. Another result of souls becoming aggressive with their own power was the gradual weakening of the link between the two states of consciousness (i.e., spirit and the soul). Some souls became more concerned with and aware of their own creations rather than God's. This resulted in the fall of certain souls to an even lower consciousness. The Bible allegorically refers to this event as the Fall in the Garden of Eden and the revolt of the angels in the Book of Revelation. This event is also the basis for the cosmology of Christian Gnosticism and Jewish mysticism.

To enter into another level of creation and become part of it, the soul had to assume a new, or third consciousness - a physical form. Assuming a physical form is a way of experiencing that level of creation by means of a conscious mind (i.e., the third consciousness). Through the conscious mind, an individual can experience physical consciousness: the physical body, the five senses, the glandular and nervous systems. This transformation of consciousness does not apply everywhere at this level of creation. In other worlds and solar systems, the transformation may differ. One can only imagine the number of these other worlds and the aspects of divine mind which they represent.

When a soul enters into another level of creation and its consciousness, it separated itself temporarily from the consciousness of its own soul, and became even further removed from the consciousness of its spirit. Thus, instead of helping to direct the flow of creation and contributing to it, the soul found itself in the stream and drifting along with it. The farther the soul traveled from the shore, the more it succumbed to the pull of the current and the more difficult was the task of getting back to land.

The earth is an expression of Divine Mind with its own laws, its own plan, and its own evolution. Souls, longing to feel the beauty of the seas, the winds, the forest, and the flowers, mixed with them and expressed themselves through them. They also mingled with the animals, and made thought forms in imitation of them. Souls played at creating and imitated God. But this interfered with the evolutionary plan of the earth. Thus, the stream of mind that was carrying out this plan for the earth gradually drew souls into its current. Souls had to evolve into the bodies they had themselves created.

This entanglement of souls into physical form was a probability from the beginning. But God did not know when it would happen until the souls, of their own free will, had caused it to happen.

All souls that exist were created by God in the very beginning. None has been made since. This means all souls on this planet, pre-existed before birth.

A way to liberate the souls that were entangled in matter was created. A physical form became available as a vehicle for the soul on earth. A way became available for souls to enter the earth and experience it as part of their evolutionary/reincarnation cycle. Of the physical forms already existing on earth, a species of anthropoid ape most nearly approached the necessary pattern. Souls descended on these apes - hovering above and about them rather than inhabiting them - and influenced them to move toward a different goal from the simple one they had been pursuing. They came down out of the trees, built fires, made tools, lived in communities, and began to communicate with each other. Eventually they lost their animal look, shed bodily hair, and took on refinements of manner and habit.

The evolution of the human body occurred partly through the soul's influence on the endocrine glands until the ape-man was a three-dimensional objectification of the soul that hovered above it. Then the soul fully descended into the body and earth had a new inhabitant: the homo sapien.

The problem for the soul entangled in flesh was to overcome the attractions of the earth to the extent that the soul would be as free in the body as out of it. Only when the body was no longer a hindrance to the free express of the soul would the cycle of earth be finished. This is the condition of having a perfect unity of the human with the divine.

In a smaller field, this was the evolutionary drama of free will and creation. In a still smaller field, each atom of the physical body is a world in itself where a drama of free will and creation is occurring. The soul brings life into each atom, and each atom is a physical reflection of the soul's pattern.

The plan for the earth cycle of souls was a limited series of incarnations with periods in between of dwelling in other heavenly dimensions of consciousness. Reincarnation would continue until a soul's every thought and action of the physical body was in accord with the plan originally laid out for the soul (i.e., a human-divine unity, Christ consciousness). When the body was no longer a hindrance to the free expression of the soul - when the conscious mind had merged with the subconscious, the earth cycle was finished and the soul liberated to move on to new adventures. This conquest of the physical body could not be attained until there was perfection in the other dimensions of consciousness that is a physical representation of our solar system. Astrologically, the goal for the soul is to attain a level of consciousness that represents the total expression of the sun and its planets. Whichever level of consciousness that the soul assumes, it becomes the focal point of activity. The other states of consciousness receded to the position of urges and influences.

The human race was fostered by a soul who had completed his experience of creation, attained Christhood, returned to God, and became a companion to God and a co-creator. This is the soul known as Jesus. The first evolutionary transformation of ape-men to homo sapiens is who the Bible refers to as "Adam". This was the beginning of the divine consciousness into flesh on the earth. The soul known as Jesus, was one of the first souls to enter into one of the Adamic races.

The soul of Jesus was interested in the plight of its fellow souls trapped in earth. After supervising the influx of souls into flesh, the Christ soul took form itself, from time to time, to act as a leader for the people.

At first, these souls just slightly inhabited the bodies of ape-men while remembering their true identities as spirit beings. But gradually, after many incarnations, these souls descended even further into physical consciousness and the result was a decrease in their spiritual mentality. They remembered their true selves only in dreams and in fables that were handed down from one generation to another. Religion came into being as a ritual of longing for lost spirit memories. The arts were born which included music and geometry. This knowledge was brought into the world from incoming souls who gradually forgot their heavenly source. This knowledge had to be written down, learned, and taught to each new generation.

Finally, humans were left with a conscious mind that was separated from their own individuality as souls. This individual identity as a soul became the subconscious mind. The individual identity or awareness of the physical world became the conscious mind. The subconscious mind (i.e., the soul) influenced the conscious mind and gave it its stature and quality. The subconscious mind dwelt in the "suit of clothes" that is the physical body and only in sleep is it disrobed.

Conscious minds, left to its own influence, will work out the plans and desires of God. Humans eventually developed theories for what they felt was true, but no longer knew to be true. The result was the creation of philosophy and theology. Humans searched and discovered higher knowledge which they carried within themselves but could no longer reach with the conscious mind. This resulted in the creation of science.

Humans evolved from having an awareness of higher spirit knowledge to having only mystical dreams, revealed religions, philosophy and theology. This evolution of consciousness ultimately reached a plateau and humans generally only believed what they could see and feel and prove in terms of their conscious minds. Then humanity began the struggle of regaining this higher knowledge.

Meanwhile, the Christ soul continued to teach and lead humanity by incarnating as the Biblical characters named Adam, Enoch, and Melchizedek. Enoch and Melchizedek experienced neither birth nor death. Then Christ soul realized after these incarnations that it was necessary to give humanity a pattern by which they could follow in order to return to God. The Christ soul achieved this goal by incarnating as the personality known as Jesus, who became victorious over the death of the physical body by laying aside the ego, accepting the crucifixion of the body in order to return to God. Jesus created a pattern for humans to follow. Through the acts of leading a perfect life and becoming unjustly killed, this reversed the negative karma (i.e., the law of God, an eye for an eye) which came from Jesus' first incarnation as Adam.

Every person's life is shaped to some extent by karma: their own, their associates, their loved ones, their nation, their race, and the entire world itself. But karma is not greater than free will. It is what a person does with these influences and urges, how they react to them, which makes the difference in their soul development. Because of karma, some things are more probable than others, but as long as there exists free will, anything is possible.

Thus free will and predestination coexist within human beings. Their past experiences limit them in probability and incline them in certain directions, but free will can always "draw the sword from the stone." The combination of free will and predestination means that humans freely choose their own predetermined destiny to return to God.

No soul incarnates without having a general plan for the life to be experienced. The personality that a person expresses in life is only one of the many personalities (i.e., facets of the soul) that a person could express. The mission of every soul is to work on one or several facets of the soul's karma (which can be thought of as the soul's memory of its prior actions)

Thus, as the soul is subjected to reincarnation, both the atheist and the religionist are correct. The atheist believes the personality does not survive after death. The religionist believes the soul is judged after death by its Creator. Substituting "personality" for "soul", both are expressing the truth. The personality is evaluated after death and then returns to the soul which created it, thereby giving up its own independent existence and becoming once again a facet of the soul. This process is different from the process where the soul merges with the spirit after it completes its cycles of reincarnation.

Fascinating!

If I make lots of "allowances" -- from a Biblical point of view -- I must admit that everything Cayce was given to dictate can be resolved with Scriptures, except (possibly???) the following statement:

" ... God did not know when it would happen until the souls, of their own free will, had caused it to happen. ..."


As I said ... fascinating,
Karlis

I very much agree with you and you are closer in my opinion to "what is correct" on a "spiritual aspect" of us then most are....

You couldnt be more right in the overall layout of the bridge.....
Although I have to agree with Karlis when she disagreed about God not knowing... He knows all.

But regardless of that...All else is right on...I have left in the parts of your quote that hit the mark right on the head....But as for Ape man, I never thought about that, and dont have a feeling one way or another, so I left it in for now... I just dont get a feeling on it....

The soul existing of 2 conciousness is the equivilant of the soul being a brain and the spirit the knowledge within the brain...

Also your right about their being different level of the spirit with heaven...I dont refer to it as a usual because ot confuses some...But for the level of knowledge the spirit has it is on a closer plane to the Light which is the Creator or Lord...because he has now returne to the Father so they are again one...This is why I feel they are seperate/but are also as one. So you may read a quote of mine at some point saying this....

I also agree we return to learn and each return gets us to a higher plane and closer to our goal...

It is also possible that Jesus' soul has been here before too to check on the progress of the peeps here on earth.... Quite a plausable thought ( agani I never thought about this)...

This certainly would explain my dreams etc....

And certainly that John the Baptist too was reincarnated too...
It is the free will that effects the Karma...Our free will in what we "choose" to do and how to act..this is why we must live "nicely"...

The personality is evaluated after death and then returns to the soul which created it, thereby giving up its own independent existence and becoming once again a facet of the soul. This is encorporated into the spirit which goes on...

You have certainly brought up some point for my to dwell on and get my gut in order...The dream aspect I feel is right on too...I constantly amaze myself about my dreams...Last night proved to be another awakening message to me as well.... long story but...not too interesting...just another understood message I recvd.


Kudos to you my dear...You are yet one step closer to fulfilling your purpose...and attaining your lifes lessons...

I'll PM you...got some thing for you to look into...We're pretty much on the same page.

Blessings....
Just remember the main goal..learn our lessons and get closer to the Light!

Yes, the thing about God 'not knowing' actually, I think is a bit of an error, as I noted, these are not the words of Cayce himself, but a summary of his readings. And nowhere in his readings does Cayce himself mention anything about God 'not knowing'. I almost deleted that for that reason....Cayce never indicated that. If anyone else is interested in this subject, I highly suggest picking up 'the complete readings' of Edgar Cayce. Go straight to the source. It goes into a lot more detail.....

Jesus, IMO has incarnated many times. He is the Krishna of the Baghavad Gita (my favorite spiritual work), He was Melchizidek, He was also Enoch, Joseph and Joshua. A theory of my own too, is that He may have even been other religious leaders....POSSIBLY. Mohammed? The Buddha? I'm not sure about that, but it does seem possible.

I know the traditional view is that God is all knowing, that he know's what we are going to do before we do it. But, for me, that makes us all automatons (i.e. some are destined for salvation, others destined for damnation) doomed to whatever fate is predetermined for us. I don't believe this to be true. I believe that one of the greatest gifts God has given to human beings is the gift of absolute free will, the ability to choose.

I reconcile this with an all knowing God this way: God has given us absolute free will. He does not know what choices we will make. He does, however, know every possible choice we might make and all of the possible consequences of those choices,far into the future, how they will affect everything else. God can certainly influence our choices, even force them if he wishes to do so, but ultimately, given our free will, the final choice in any circumstance will be ours.

As to why God gave us this free will, which has caused a lot of problems for us here on earth, that's another question.

Hi sam,
I agree, we do have the free will...I think that when we choose to come back, thats if we do ( some just decide to stay there)....at this point we pick our chart for the next life..and here we come...... That is where we are granted the free will to choose our "next life" or "our choices"... Once we choose and come, God lets us learn as we have choosen...and doesnt interfere unless it is for a purpose he feels needs to be added or changed, or directed ... And this is "his" choice.....
But your right,
Our choice and our free will.....when we decide to come. Just MHO.
Blessings to you

Hi brahman.

I do like Cayce and his documentations... You have to keep in mind that although he wasnt always on the money.. He was pretyy darn close...There is not one seer who is ever 100% right on...If they say they are, theyre lying.... Even Nostradamus was pretty good, although he had to write in such a manner as to avoid persecution....He also was not 100% all the time , but certainly note worthy...

Cayce was remarkable...he helped alot of people and did alot of good with his gift.... GIFT.
God blessed the man and he did well. We are lucky so much was written and recorded for documentation and havnig around today...

Every so often we get a "super nova" of a seer, although I beleive that each of us have the ability...Most dont take the time to appreciate or learn how to enhance their gift.... but Im getting a little off track here now...

OK,
Back to the ape man thing...I think at their early stages apeman was in a "survival mode"...although they had souls as a being.... but still an "instinctual being", as an animal......as we know animals have souls...and animals love and all that, But i dont think they could have a Loving lord connected spirit at that time...

Although all souls return to the Lord, they ascend on different levels and therefore "apeman" is with the animals... not the human spirits.... he was more instinctual than loving....

Had to feel on this a while....

Blessings

This largely reflects my own philosophical picture of god, based on research and personal experience. I do not believe there is a real difference between spirit and soul, rather that both these are products of of/ intertconnected with our physical shell. Thus when the shell dies, the soul goes into a state of unconsciousness, which is only revived/resurected when a new physical body is prepared for it.



On the other hand, i also believe that god can not know everything, because we have free will. Free will makes it impossible for god to know how any individual will act, until they do.

Thus i disagree with these two writers. What god does have, is a non linear overview of time. Thus he, in effect, sees a multiverse of possibilities for every individual and for the world in general.

This might represent a four dimensional carpet where our life forms one thread, branching out into many potentialities, from one end of our life span to the other. Each thread, while complex, forms only a minute part of the whole tapestry of existence, and interconnects with other lives and other portentialities for every nano second of its existence.

God can see the carpet laid out, from before we are born until after we die, and far out on each end of this. Thus he can identify critical nodes or interces in any life, and see that a number of different potential outcomes are possible in the tapestry of life.

He then may influence the surrounding carpet/environment, or our own individual thread, to guide or force the thread where it should go (to represent gods best interests or our own). So,, for example, if a speeding bus is going to run us down, god may alter our own actions, the actions of the bus driver, or the physical environment eg the brakes on the bus, to ensure that this does not happen.

Mostly, however, he allows us the consequences of our free will and choices, so that for us; as our linear time line evolves, one particular thread representing our actual life, metaphorically shines a bright golld

All the other potentialities still exist on the tapestry in gods eyes, but to us, only that one golden thread actually occured.

On the aspect of spirit, soul, and body my view is that their is a computer program (the spirit), it can run slow or boggle down if the memory, RAM, and processor speed are not up to par (the soul), and everything else from the mother board, video card, and even the PC housing are necessary while on earth (the body). Maybe an ill suited example but some will be able to connect directly to the God mainframe and run their program directly from there. We are in essence the program.

sorry I don't think that the so called sleeping prophet was a prophet. I can't put my finger on it right now but some of his prophecies didn't come true. The same with Nostradamus. Including the 1989 San Fransisco earth quake. He predicted it in July and 100,000 deaths and the city would be under water. Of course if it had hit in July there would have been close to 100,000 deaths. But it hit in Oct. and everyone went home early to watch a baseball game thus only 10 people died on the freeway. Thus he was not a true prophet either.

http://www.hiddenmeanings.com/body.html

Very true Jak ...it is within us, if they choose to look.... sstarts at our brain, to our hearts... and to our soul/spirit....

Thanks for sharing....They may be onto something there.

Very nice post. I would have to agree with this. This is an excellent way of how God may perceive us.

Adam and Eve were the 1st humans to have a soul and commune with God they could have lived forever if they did not disobey God.

Hi brahman1888, I hought I'd give you a heads up, Cayce was simply advertising something that has been around for a very long time, he was just doing it with clever new wrappings, It is called Gnosticism.

Aren't you just a bit too simlistic?
Adam and Eve maybe a prototype ( although there is 2 creation explanation in the Bible, which you should nt take as absolute truth ).Juat how long would it have taken to populate the Earth with Eve having children with Adam then her son Cain since C killed Abel..then wait till Cain's daughter grows up and have sex with her father or brother to have more children..then wait till they grow up etc...etc..

Since everyhting came out of, manisted out of the Creator, from his/her essence, everything has a soul essence in different degrees ( even stones ) They are made up of God's essence...
When we got free will it is FREE without the notion to obedience or punishment. It was given for freedom to experience, experiment and learn. What you call punishment is just the effect of natural laws, not God's punishment who gave us free will. If he did not want us to "sin" he would not have set up the trap of free will..etc..

physical bodies do not live forever ( although on some planets can live hundreds of years ) but our essence, who we are as individual souls do live forever, taking human non human , physical or non physical forms to experience all facets of LIFE, Existence, and to create. We are as our creator is ,creators..
God, Source experiences everything through us in us. We are always one with him/her/it

Yes lol that is certainly true. I never said he was the pioneer of this philosophy. I happen to agree with much of the gnostic teachings, actually......I guess if anything, I am a bit OF a gnostic.

Well I can only speak for myself when I state that I am extremely wary of this philosophy. Taking God the creator and making him out to be an evil being and then having us humans turn out to be seedling gods is certainly no way to look at the scriptures.

I would state even further that the teachings of gnosticism have alwys been antagonistic to christianity. What is sad is that many people actually believe it. New Age Teaching all the way from Madame Blavatsky to Maconic teachings seem to rely alot on this principle of gnosis, "knowing the inner godlike light".

.....But by the same token is it any better to say that WE are evil? While I am quite fond of the vast majority of Saint Augustine's theological doctrines, I feel his concept of 'original sin' has done as much, if not more harm than the misconceptions of gnosticism. His view essentially states that:

the whole essence of human nature was contained in Adam, the first man
when Adam disobeyed God, the whole of human nature disobeyed God
thus the whole of human nature became sinful
thus the whole human race was damaged for all time.

"Nothing remains but to conclude that in the first man all are understood to have sinned, because all were in him when he sinned; whereby sin is brought in with birth and not removed save by the new birth...it is manifest that in Adam all sinned, so to speak, en masse. By that sin we became a corrupt mass."
Augustine

I am the inheritor of what........guilt? sin debt? Through what? No fault of my own? But through one man....this Adam? Look at the result of this one major doctrine......here we have an entire religion founded on the concept of guilt. Religion and spirituality should not be about guilt, but liberation, connection to God.....not God saving 'a wretch like me'. Yeah, I'm a sinner, but in the fundamentalist viewpoint, I am this way because of the actions of someone else.

I respect your views, and honestly, I don't think you and I are poles apart here. Never would I insinuate that God has ever done anything evil, unless, you believe absoulte free will is evil? Nor am I saying I am some sort of God. Hey, I even agree with you regarding Blavatsky. I think she was an absolute fraud, and as such I discredit all of her views. I don't care what she taught lol.

Reread my OP, if you would.....what I am saying here is that I am Adam, YOU are Adam, we are all Adam......he was not a literal man, but all of us collectively, as soul beings, yes, with a 'god light'. We are not gods, but at one time we were one WITH Him, sort of like broadcasting out of the same radio tower, but at a lesser frequency. We chose to lower that frequency even further and descend into matter. THAT is the original sin. Not the action of one man, but all of us, collectively. Now we are trying to ascend back to our original frequency. Not become a god. At least IMO.

But why is it bad to say we have 'a god like light'? Is it better to instead, say, that we are all wretches save for calling on Jesus our Redeemer??? Liberation or guilt, you tell me!

Again, though, it is my opinion, however, that we are disagreeing over small things, in the end. I enjoy a good debate, but its all just opinions and we really aren't that different. I pray to the same God you do, I profess Jesus as Lord, just as you do.....we just don't see it all eye to eye.

I don't view Jesus as the PATH to salvation from sin, but rather, as the PATTERN of salvation from sin. But I certainly believe in His birth, His ministry, His crucifixion, and yes, the Resurrection.

I quite agree with you that "Original Sin" is a very bad mistake in christian theology, I rejected the concept years ago, because it is simply not biblical, I am of the mind that the Jewish concept is much closer to the intended view of the early church, where sin is personal and at times communal, in the case of a nation sinning as a whole, but that the idea of sin hanging over humanity due to Adam and Eves sin is not biblical. Just as the concept of death before the fall was also quite natural for the created universe. Animals and plants died, Suns and planets died, that is the natural and intended order of the physical universe.



Again we are in agreement. That is why any human child who has not reached the stage of knowledge between good and evil is automatically taken to the presence of God in the case of death. Such would not be the case if Original Sin were a biblical concept. The idea is that we make sin our own from the time we make the decision to do so. That is when we become sinners. That is also what the church is really supposed to be about, the redemption and liberation of sin and our sinful nature through christ.



I never said you insinuated such a thing, but it is a clear dogmatic principle of those who are gnostics. As for free will, it is neither evil or good, it a is a tool God gave us as part of our natures, it is what we do with it that really matters.



Here I cannot agree with you, simply because I believe that Adam and Eve were very real beings who are the ancestors of all of humanity. As for us having the "god light", I believe that to be true up to a point but in a very differnt way than what you expect. I believe that this light is given to us when we accept Jesus as our saviour, when we are in effect born again to God. God gives us this "god light" in the form of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It is this rebirth to God that allows us to become Adam-like in our relationship with God.



Because that light is not a part of us, it is given to us upon rebirth to God. Think of Jesus and the Baptism scene where a dove settles on him. It is a metaphor for what I am trying to say.



I supose I could quote a few passages that go against the 1st part of your statement (I'm sure you know them), but I also believe that when the time is right, God will speak to you in a way you never thought possible and anything I say can't compare to that.

oops, posted same post twice

Listen, seriously, i dont wanna hurt your feelings, but the post you posted, is so full of holes, that i decided not to break it down and show it in its true light. Its not a reflection of a true god, re-incarnation is not even a possibility and as for your favourite book and i can tell you are of devout hindu origin, does not condone, neither does mention re-incarnation in the same way you believe it to be. A forget full god, a god awakening to his true nature and becomes aware so to speak of his own exitence, a god needing companionship. These are attributes which belong to creation and mankind, not to god. Again scientifically, spiritually, scripturely and logically its irrational at best. I hope your not offended by what I am saying, that is not my intention, byt Cayce is presenting a model of a false god. As for the baghvad Gita, i know it very well too.

Re-incarnation is misunderstanding by Vedantists, not hindus, because the latter is a geopgraphical description for all the different people living in india.

Jesus was jesus, a normal man, enpowered by god and guided by him. He was not re-incarnated nor was he a manisfestion of god. Nor was Krishna nor, Shiva etc. These are all misunderstandings of scripture and people twisting things to meet their own fanciful ideas of origin and purpose of existence.

To see we are gods light and were once one with god, is ridiculous, statements like this are often not thought out properly. To be once one with god, would mean you are a part of god, and what makes god, GOD. Well its his attributes, which are inseperable, like what makes us human are our attributes which are inseperable from us. Thus, if we were once one with god, this means we carry all his attributes, thus we are god or gods. I would like to see what is godly about any of you, who believe this notion.

I would like to know how you KNOW that reincarnation isnt possible. Also, I would like to know if you go by the Bible 100%. If we arent a 'part' of God then what are we a part of? Curious where you get your ideas from...if it is the Bible, I would like to show you some things.

Peace to all

Virog,
You beat me to it!...

If we are not from and of God... What are we? Does it not say we are created in his image?

Of course we are from God. We are the spirit essence just as Jesus called back to raise Laz....
The Lord called him back because he Loved him. Are we loved any less? Would or could not our spirits be brought back again to this earth if we or he choose to send us here again?

Although I am a Christian, there is more spiritually to Jesus, and Christianity then the church wants us to know or learn. Christanity is spiritual no matter how you look at it...as well as other religions too. Its a spiritual experience. Loving and doing good...and using our abilities for the good.




Ozi, no disrespect to you ....But a wise spiritual, gifted woman once said ....' Dont tell a hunter how to hunt if you have never been in the woods or looked thru a scope'.

Awaken the spiritual inside of yourself and see thru the scope...perhaps it will change your view.....




Blessings

It is a pity though that you yourself don't know what the image of God actually means. And although I respect your right to believe in whatever you want, it doesn't make it correct, if you go by the bible that is, naturally if you want to dabble with other philosophies at least be honest and don't equate them to christianity,

Peace and Love,

Jor-el

Of courese reincarnation is possible, if you throw out the bible that is...

I have always been honest about my beleifs, to the point of saying more than perhaps I should....I consider myself Christian because Christ is my center...And all good comes from Him. But an "outside the box" Christian.......I also call myself sometime a Christian mutt, because I beleive mainly in the Christian way, but because of my experiences I know there is more.... And because all good comes from the Lord, I know where it comes from....


But I also know there is more to Christianity then what is taught. There is spirituality to it as well, which is frowned upon by most Christians and the church as it teaches against it. Anyways enough of me.....



Can you please enlighten me with regards to your claim regarding the Image of God......?
How can you state what I feel, when you are not in my head??? or Heart????

Let me tell you mine....
It does not mean we look like him, but were made in "THEIR" likeness. (Being in the plural sense.... )To me I beleive it to the the union of the Trinity, or that God is a plural being....I choose the Trinity......Our union to God and in and for each other, a union in fellowship....Our uniquness of our being, and a mirror of His virtues, holiness and perfection. At that point sinless.....His spirituality of being can not lend us to ascertain we look like him in a physical sense... but in a spiritual likeness....But also as he has dominion over us, as we too have dominion over the animals...We are in his image or likeness in many ways. In his Love for us as we should have for each other.... shall I continue......

oops double post..... Sorry Mod!

Yes christianity is spirituality, it is our life in God and yes all good things come from him, yet when it comes to doctrine we should only take it from the bible and not from other books. As in the case of reincarnation, it is not a biblical belief. I studied it alot, but it doesn't convince me where it's most important, it isn't in the bible.

I've had a few spiritual experiences in my time, some even touched othe peoples lives, but the one test we must all take ourselves according to our own conscience is whether it conforms to the word of God. I'm not talking of the will of God, but the Word of God, all things must pass that test, or they should not be done or believed as doctrine.

Here's an article that sums up wha the image is quite nicely. Tell me what you think...

Michael S. Heiser, PhD, Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages

You have to also remember that the Bible was compiled based on what books Constantine wanted in there...and many were leftt out....Then we have the King Jame version.....And there a still more fragmented texts (the dead sea scrolls) that are still being translated and scribed...

There is more to the Bible then what has been bound and in print these many years...

What you posted with regard to being stewards of the land is very much in the Gnostic views as well...

This is also mine... Does it make me Gnostic? No... But I do beleive this too... It doesnt take away from my Christianity, but I feel rather enhances it. To beleive in views of another religion doesnt mean it is wrong to beleive it as a Christian...

This is why there is much discord between religions these days......

Hmm. I'm not sure where I want to begin.....I'll be gone again for a few days so I'll respond to new posts when I get back.

"Listen, seriously, i dont wanna hurt your feelings, but the post you posted, is so full of holes, that i decided not to break it down and show it in its true light. Its not a reflection of a true god, re-incarnation is not even a possibility and as for your favourite book and i can tell you are of devout hindu origin, does not condone, neither does mention re-incarnation in the same way you believe it to be. A forget full god, a god awakening to his true nature and becomes aware so to speak of his own exitence, a god needing companionship. These are attributes which belong to creation and mankind, not to god. Again scientifically, spiritually, scripturely and logically its irrational at best. I hope your not offended by what I am saying, that is not my intention, byt Cayce is presenting a model of a false god. As for the baghvad Gita, i know it very well"

I'm not of Hindu origin, rather grew up as a Christian. I also am aware that the Gita does NOT mention reincarnation in the same light as what I am stating. It is SIMILAR though, no, not the same at all. But you know what? I'm sort of borrowing things from different religions. Why? Because I want to know as much about them as possible. I am of the belief that no religion is either entirely correct or incorrect, as they are MAN MADE. I believe that God reaches us through ALL religions. Whatever beliefset you are following is merely a dirt road, what is important, more important than religion itself, is your actual walk on that road. I think of religion as being rather similar to astrology. Your sign may have some influence on things like dispositions or personality traits. Well, religion is the same way. Each one triggers experiences in the soul; experiences that will ultimately transcend the physical existence. You gain from each path, from each religion, in each incarnation.

'attributes which belong to creation and mankind, not to god'? Are we not in the image OF God? Even from a fundamentalist christian standpoint I would absolutely argue that God did in fact create us out of desire for companionship and self expression. Why does an artist paint? The image of God, see? Even if we throw aside my entire theory, I still believe that to be true. And if you believe in a loving God, I should think you would feel the same way.

And no I am not offended, why should I be? You are just plain wrong!! .......I'm just kidding, my friend. Nah, I'm not offended by anyone's opinions. Everyone is following their own path. I'm pleased to discuss these things with people on different ones than me.

"To see we are gods light and were once one with god, is ridiculous, statements like this are often not thought out properly. To be once one with god, would mean you are a part of god, and what makes god, GOD. Well its his attributes, which are inseperable, like what makes us human are our attributes which are inseperable from us. Thus, if we were once one with god, this means we carry all his attributes, thus we are god or gods. I would like to see what is godly about any of you, who believe this notion."

Why is that so difficult for people to accept? .......Of course I am a part of God, all of creation is. God is the uncaused cause, all eminates from that first cause, so all is part of that first cause. I disagree with this notion so strongly I can barely even articulate my thoughts about it....WE DO CARRY HIS ATTRIBUTES......what takes place in the material world is a mirror, a parallel to what takes place in the spiritual. If you give birth to a child, does not that child, though seperate, always remain A PART OF YOU? They resemble in appearance their parents, often take on some of the same personality traits 'you're so much like your father!' What about me is Godly? That is the whole battle here, my friend. You are a spiritual being having a material experience, IMO. This material experience is about upward mobility, so to speak. You are growing towards God, by following your beliefs, by being a good person, by trying to crucify the ego, the self. The idea that you are NOT PART OF GOD is PART OF THE PROBLEM. It is the illusion of seperateness from your fellow man, from the Source, that binds one to the material plane in the first place. THAT is the real original sin. The atrributes of your humanity ARE seperable. When you die, it is my belief you will completely shed what you percieve to be the self, this personality, as one would a garment. Your soul knows God, and knows that it is part of God. Your ego is the cause of all your troubles. Again, why is that so hard to accept? Do you go to church just to sit in the pew? Or do you want to KNOW God? To experience God? To feel His presence? .....To me that's the whole point. Look, you can throw this scripture and that scripture around to attempt to refute what I am saying, but why bother? SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND KNOCK AND IT SHALL BE OPENED........once you really feel God's presence in your life, I guarantee all of these notions of seperateness will begin to fall away like a house of cards.

"If we arent a 'part' of God then what are we a part of? Curious where you get your ideas from...if it is the Bible, I would like to show you some things."

.....That is precisely my point. Nice name by the way. I am a virgo too lol

"Although I am a Christian, there is more spiritually to Jesus, and Christianity then the church wants us to know or learn. Christanity is spiritual no matter how you look at it...as well as other religions too. Its a spiritual experience. Loving and doing good...and using our abilities for the good."

Right on Warrior, as usual, I completely agree. Christianity is often more about the social pecking order than it is actually knowing God. I think Christians would do well to, if nothing else, study the Kabbalah, as it shows how a mystical union with God both should be sought, and how to go about doing it. I mean, what you are saying is dead on. Constantine was more about establishing rule and authority through use of the bible than he was about being a believer. To the Catholics, although I am fond of them, you've got to admit, much of their beliefs are based on the authority OF THE CHURCH sometimes over and against the actual Bible itself. Again, I think your religion should only serve as a springboard.

"Again we are in agreement. That is why any human child who has not reached the stage of knowledge between good and evil is automatically taken to the presence of God in the case of death. Such would not be the case if Original Sin were a biblical concept. The idea is that we make sin our own from the time we make the decision to do so. That is when we become sinners. That is also what the church is really supposed to be about, the redemption and liberation of sin and our sinful nature through christ"

Nice post Jor-el. I find your opinions to be very interesting, and often, agreeable to my own. I pretty much agree with you on the thing about children.....but think about this what if that instance is actually something karmic playing out? Again, I believe all experiences here to be of spiritual significance, everything, yes, happens for a reason. There is a LESSON to be learned in a situation like that. Perhaps it is how to handle grief in a Godly way, as just an example of many scenarios. The material experience is but a lesson in a spiritual classroom, so to speak. It is the law of cause and effect. That is karma in motion. Your child dies suddenly. There are a thousand ways you can react to this, some will lead you closer to God, others, further apart. There is a REASON for this. Your soul needs to learn something. This does not make GOD evil. Its hard to respond to people who accuse God of being evil when looking at suffering. On the one hand, you can understand how they feel, but on the other, we must stop looking at our experiences in this life as being material only. There is something much deeper going on here....

"I never said you insinuated such a thing, but it is a clear dogmatic principle of those who are gnostics."

I know that. And that is why I am truly not a gnostic either. I totally agree with you. I don't believe in dualism, a yin and yang God. God is good. And He is the light of my life, without whom I am nothing.

"Here I cannot agree with you, simply because I believe that Adam and Eve were very real beings who are the ancestors of all of humanity. As for us having the "god light", I believe that to be true up to a point but in a very differnt way than what you expect. I believe that this light is given to us when we accept Jesus as our saviour, when we are in effect born again to God. God gives us this "god light" in the form of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It is this rebirth to God that allows us to become Adam-like in our relationship with God"

....Once again, I really respect this opinion. In fact, although you may be surprised, I absolutely agree. This is truly the path to salvation. The only part where we may differ, albeit slightly, is the role of the Holy Spirit. I believe in a sense what I can best describe as Holy Spirit Conviction. At some point in your life, He will be present, and you either have the choice to accept or reject Him.....to live a life following the pattern of Godliness with Christ as the EXAMPLE, the death of self, or to live in the material....satisfying only the desires of the ego. But I believe the Holy Spirit to be UNIVERSALLY present, so to speak. I don't feel He is exclusive to Christianity. He illuminates the truth, right? Well the truth is......basically to live as the sermon on the mount. When one steps out of the self, they are following the Spirit IMO. Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, whatever.....the Holy Spirit speaks to all. Even an atheist can be godly in a sense. When suddenly in your life, you realize there is more to your five senses and science, when you look outside of yourself, that is the Holy Spirit, see? That is the Holy Spirit conviction, even if one does not realize it as such. I too believe in rebirth, or being born again. But it can happen to anyone.....not just the Christians.

" supose I could quote a few passages that go against the 1st part of your statement (I'm sure you know them), but I also believe that when the time is right, God will speak to you in a way you never thought possible and anything I say can't compare to that."

.....You seem like a pretty cool guy, my friend. I've sincerely been enjoying reading your posts. It is obvious your faith is strong. And PLEASE do not take this as sounding arrogant, but honestly, I feel God has been speaking to me all my life. Even when I didn't want to listen. God is the center of my life, truly He is my Rock. As a kid, I was raised by a VERY Christian mother. I learned how to read from the Bible. But you know what? I never set foot in a church. She didn't believe in it. So from early on, I had strong experiences of God. But then as I got older I fell into depression, went through drug abuse and alcoholism, was basically agnostic and suicidal. Thought there was no God. I was so happy at first, in my drugs and all that, but I just continued to downard spiral. Then, when I was in my early twenties, I needed to do some research for a story I was working on (am a writer as a hobby) and I was looking for a scripture quote. Instead of that, I opened it to the Book Of Ecclesiastes. What happened then was the most mystical experience of my entire life. I began reading those words, and the tears just started pouring down my face. It was as if I HAD WRITTEN THIS MYSELF. These were my own thoughts on the page. The Holy Spirit SPOKE TO ME THAT NIGHT. I realized in an instant that everything was meaningless without God, a chasing after the wind. Ecclesiastes is the story of my life. And my life was changed forever in that moment. I gave up the drugs and the drinking....with His help. And you know what? It was easy.

.....I could just go on and on with these kind of stories. I've felt God's hand on me all my life, I can see Him everywhere I look. So many personal experiences. I feel like sometimes He's talking to me through a megaphone its so obvious. He's always spoken to me in ways I've never thought possible, and I'll be honest with you, I often don't even know why. He's always been so present in my life, I feel there is some reason why, like maybe I should be doing something.....I don't know......I just don't know why. Or what? But man, he is always there.....again, not to sound arrogant, not at all my brother, but I've had so many profound experiences with God it blows my mind, to the point where I just wonder, why me? What am I supposed to do? I mean, I'm not even that good of a person.....lol I talk a better talk than I walk..........its crazy........I love the Lord......that's all I know.....


"I also call myself sometime a Christian mutt, because I beleive mainly in the Christian way, but because of my experiences I know there is more.... And because all good comes from the Lord, I know where it comes from...."

This is what I'm talking about. And this is why I respect her so much. It seems she's had similar experiences to mine. MY experiences too have taught me that there is more as well. I didn't go seeking these things out, they gradually just fell more and more into my lap......once again I believe it is God showing me things. To what end, I have no clue.

Take care, all, be back soon. Like I said, I will respond to any posts when I get back, so don't think I'm ignoring anyone's wonderful opinions lol

First off Thank you for your respect....
As you, it fell into my lap..... An awakening....More and more things come to me...It is truly a gift...And I am thankful.....Its the acceptance of the Light which comes from the Holy spirit and the truth....The Divine Truth...God. The Light, the Love. Its a knowing.....from the source. I dont know how else to explain it. It just is.....

Warrior for the Light, if you don't mind, I'll refer to you as WFL from now on, it's a nice handle although a little long to write out.

The bible is just a book my friend, it was redacted, edited and compiled a few times in the Old Testament, it was done so again for the new Testament when the church elders decided it was time to unite all the material they had to draw on for their faith, by the time constantine came on the scene, the Bible we have today was already accepted as cannon by many if not most of christianity. Natuarally they did not include such texts that belonged to Gnostic christianity, which was seen from the very beginning as a threat. It still doesn't detract from the wonder which is the bible and it doesn't make it any less inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sure we can study the texts that didn't get into the bible, we can even go so far as to accept that they have useful things to teach us but between accepting what such texts have to say and what the bible says, I'll take the bible any day of the week. What we as christians have to consider is the interpretations of that text. Interpretation has a way of changing with time, the words themselves do not.

I studied most of the Gnostic literature available, The Gospel of Thomas, Judas and Mary to name a few, I even like reading Elaine Pagels views on the subject even though I know her agenda. I've studied the Books of Enoch and I've even dabbled in Vedic literature, but when it coms right down to it, the bible is the ultimate source of authority for me. I may find truth in all those books, but I always keep in mind that drinking from many founts of water eventually gives one a belly ache, the same can be said from drinking from many founts of knowledge, when they clash you are left with nothing but disbelief and confusion.

So what is my rock, what can be used as my measuring stick to define truth and wisdom? The bible is my ultimate source, when something contradicts scripture I know in my heart of hearts that that is not a path I will take.

Naturally if you believe otherwise, you are free to do so, but remember, that knowledge is a two edged sword, wield it well. This is especially relevant to what is called exotic knowledge, that in itself is the 1st sign of deceit, God works in the light, not veiled in the secrecy of the night.

Gnostics view the image of God in a much more profound way, they believe that the image is the spark of the divine in themselves, it has nothing inherent to being represantatives of God in the way the article expresses. Adam and Eve weren't created to be divine, so much so that they weren't even created immortal, they had to eat from the Tree of Life to remain alive. We can say that what they had could be called conditional immortality. If that is the case, then the gnostic view is not the correct interpretation of the text.

Besides, the gnostic view also holds that the creator or the Demiurge as he is called, was imperfect... do we even want to go in that direction?



See: Demiurge

The point that I'm trying to make is that one has to be real careful not to to follow the rabbit into the hole waiting for us, even if that rabbit seems to speak and hold a watch. To accept a view like this puts us in a path that doesn't lead to God or Christ.

Allow me to clarify,

What you posted with regard to being stewards of the land is very much in the Gnostic views as well...

This is also mine... ((( my view of caring about the earth too)))Does it make me Gnostic? No... But I do beleive this too...


((((Being a steward of the land))))) ((so beleiving in part of another religion doesnt make it a bad thing, some times it compliments))) (((this is what i ment))))
It doesnt take away from my Christianity, but I feel rather enhances it. To beleive in views of another religion doesnt mean it is wrong to beleive it as a Christian...

This is why there is much discord between religions these days......


Blessings

Ooops again... I ment Pagan in post 32 and as is here...... Not Gnostic......My appologies.