Technology is supposed to serve to make things easier and cheaper. This is the very
basis of the population increases since ancient times; productivity. Fewer people making
more things with less effort means more mouths can be fed.

Frankly, I think the cost estimate is grossly understated. Even if we built one in a wholly
modern style and didn't try to duplicate the ancients there still would be huge amounts of
infrastructure to build before we even put the first stone in place.

Found some interesting links -

Construction Office

Hawass

The second link answers many questions. Yes, I know that most of the information is "theory" but unless someone can hop back in time and video tape it, everything will be a "theory". But it appears Mr. Hawass has evidence that lends credence to his theory.

HN

I agree that technology is supposed to make things easier. Cheaper? I dunno.

Have you seen any of the creations in Dubai? I am quite confident that we can build anything today that was built in the past. Would we do it the same way? Probably not. Would it be easy? Probably not. Would it be safer? Yep. Would it cost less? Nope.

I agree that the cost estimate seems understated - for today. If we could do the same as a Pharaoh then I think the cost would change dramatically.

HN

I found the following article interesting. It's from the June 1999 CIVIL ENGINEERING MAGAZINE. It's from the professional point of view of the construction management firm Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall.

Great Pyramid construction

cormac

He's using mere words to suppose this problem is solved. Words never built
a pyramid. Even if he did find the specialists who would support this theory
there remains nothing but questions and mysteries. For instance what possi-
ble explanation for the existence of foreign sand in the walls of the pyramid
might any of these specialists offer? Why expend great deal of efforts on any
theory which doesn't answer any of the questions or address any of the myster-
ies?

They are married to the ramp concept because the great 19th century archae-
ologists believed in ramps.

This isn't to say ramps are an impossibility or shouldn't be investigated. This
is to say that data should be collected which would shed light on the question.
Just trying to use science to proove the existence of ramps regardless of evi-
dence and without study is not science at all. Investigators aren't even allowed
to work unless they are "trained" and published. Of course you can't get publish-
ed if you don't believe in ramps. This is a 19th century religion rather than a
science.

It is reasonable to assume, then, that they possessed both the ability and the resources to undertake a project as complex as the construction of the Great Pyramid at Giza.

All they are saying here is that they don't think aliens built it because it exists.

The unfinished state of this room indicates that the plans changed.

There's no evidence that the subterranian chamber is unfinished. The location
of the remaining stones implies that it was completed. Ancient stone removal
simply wouldn't have left walls and projections.

The pit in this chamber may have been incomplete.

We determined, however, that some type of ramp structure was probably used given the remains of ramps at other sites and our assessment of available construction methods

This really says it all right here; we can't imagine aliens or anything else so ramps
were used.

The critical path analysis showed that the production of blocks from the quarry would not have been a constraint.

Why would quarrying be a constraint when you can't get stone up a ramp? They
could merely pencil whip this problem. The pyramids were built so the stone was
quarried. D'uh.

Assembling a workforce of this size?and feeding it?appear to have been well within the capabilities of the Egyptian economy at that time if the population was in fact 1 million to 1.5 million.

This I agree with. The population might have even been a little higher. But we're
still talking a huge percentage of the GDP to do the work. This was the peak grow-
ing season. Sure the valley was flooded but that doesn't mean nothing grew. What
if they grew herbs on the hills as the Pyramid Texts say? How about in the valley on
the valley walls and the remaining unflooded land? The economy still had to function
year round or ancient people starved.

Because they could calculate the volume of ramps, we assume they optimized the planning of the construction to minimize the materials and labor required just as we would today so that labor would be expended on the most critical and challenging aspects of the project.

Here's my very favorite part. What this says is that they don't want to even try to ex-
plain how the Egyptians put 50,000,000,000 pounds of ramping material in the hole
made by removing 12,000,000,000 of stone. And much more they don't want to even
try to explain how even all these people could move this much material in buckets and
by dragging it hither and yon.

If anyone cares I'll read and refute the rest of this too, but it looks mostly senseless to
me.

LOL

Thank you ids, you made my day

Quoting internet links replaces own thinking. Furthermore it saves hard work on research.

I tell you, if you would take paper, pencil and a calculator and work out what it would mean if your statement would be true, the numbers would tell you
that you are wrong.

I have done the effort to make a simple plan , estimating what basic workprocess would be important.
Cuttung from Rock, roughfinishing the blocks, transport per Nile to Giza during high-water season, transport to location, halffinish the blocks, transport to final destination, finishing the polishing ets etc.
Calculating how many man needed to pull a rock 1,50 tons, go get the numbers for 10tonner, how many needed for a 70tonner, allways remember they had no technology whatsoever.
And you need to calculate with 2,7 Million blocks. Managing a constructrion-location with 100.000 over 10 years, take care for food, hovels and toilets. Working by night or only 10 hours per day ??? How many days per year? How many stones per day ? You go an make the Math - there is NO WAY !
I would dare to say that our civilisation is incapable to clone this.

Herodot was an idiot !
Or he lied.
However, I have a own mind, and i do know better.

Herodot really want you to believe 100.000 workers laboured 10 years to contruct the Great Pyramid.
This is B.S.
The number of stones facilitated into this building are to many for 100.000 workers that have only 10 years time.
The Nile has several month low-water.
The precision of the stones is unbelievable extraordinary.

They not only have been cut and smoothes, they have been polished to hold a precision of 1/10th of millimeter over a survace of roughly 1 sqaremeter, per face !
On top of this, they have been glued together by a cement that in its consistence is ultrafine.
And i could go on and on and on.

But one more thing.
I have been a littel bit obsessed by the Great Pyramid. This one Pyramid I have studied it insideout. Half of my library is filled with books out the 3 pyramids on the Giza platoe.
The most impressive information about the contruction of it was for me:
1. The sheer effort put in the precision of the stones.
And even more amazing:
2. The Geometry and mathematics encoded in the measures of this building.
I will not go into details but this:
The numbers of the measurements stay in relation to eachother.
All of the numbers,
directly and without effort to use any tricks of magic or good will of imagination,
relate,
according to the laws of the "universal language" Geometry,
to distances and sizes of our earth, its position in our solarsystem, the suns distances in the solarsystem.
These numbers are precise to the 3 digits behind the comma !
Our today longitude and latitude are clearly encoded there also. With same precision.
And there is much more, like, the average thickness of earth crust !

How, as a egyptian, do you want to give out the equatorial circumference to the milimeter ASWELL the polar circumference with same precision ?
These 2 numbers differ so slightly that you need to have a Orbital viewpoint to start measurement. Get the picture ?

And to close this rant,
I have been 3 times to egypt spending many hours inside the "greate white". No sane mind would built something so bizzar and unusuable for a tomb. The so called sarcophagus does not even fit through the opening of the Kingchamber. Go watch SG-1 to get a vague idea - they are nearer to the truth as those ludicrus egyptologist.

Hey, its not that i am mean to you.
Its that you are insulting human intelligence.

Maybe we're arguing apples and oranges here which is simply going to prove non-productive.

But this statement is almost universally untrue. Sure you can produce evidence that Indepence
Hall or something was built for a mere $10,000 but this is not what I'm talking about.

As a percentage of the total productive capacity of the people Indepence Hall would have cost
far more to build than its equivalent today. $10,000 was nearly .25% of government revenue
in those days if memory serves. Even Hoover Dam probably didn't cost that much. Perhaps
the Panama Canal did though.

It's kind of like asking how much it would cost the Egyptians to put a man on the moon. Some
questions are either meaningless or over complicated to try to answer. But technology always
is geared to greater efficiency and lower cost even on those rare occassions that it mostly fails.

You are correct, I am not sure we are discussing the same point here. No worries. My small point is that we can reproduce the pyramids today. Would it cost an arm and a leg to do so? Yup. Is there any point in doing so? Nope.

Hn

What I meant was that the Egyptians depicted almost everything they
did in drawings. From the trivial and mundane to the actions of their
Gods there are drawing and description.

So why no drawings of building the pyramids. Why no descriptions on
how they built such things?

It seems to me that this is a question which should be addressed by any
theory of how this work was done.

I agree, there should be some type of records or plans. I believe we just haven't found them yet. When they are found all the theories should narrow straight down to one much stronger theory.

But until we have them, I will go with what I see as the simplest and most reasonable explanation given that explains what the ancient Egyptians were capable of doing.

I'm not an expert. Never been to Egypt. I just can't attribute either devine, mystical or any other type of "other worldly" help with the pyramids when we have perfectly reasonable and plausable explanations that take into consideration how wonderfully clever some past civilizations were.



HN

hed be as stupid as the person who would leave a Comment like the one above. if i ask how the hong kong bank was built, that means youd say something like "Ha! i dont think theyll give you the blue prints so you can sneak in and rob it. theyre not stupid".....whaaa? lame. hope you see that now. i was asking HOW they built it, not sure why you replied with that. and i was stating NO culture really recorded that, How they were able to accomplish it.
the egyptians, the mayans, teotihuacan, bosnian, spain, greece, sudan, peru, mexico. they ALL built these same structures basically, all around the world.

It is the same with stone / wood henges, they spring up all over the place. Pyramids, are all over the world Egypt, China, South America, France etc the fact is that despite the huge size of these structures, they are fairly simple shapes that held some meaning for those civilisations that built them.

cladking,



Since you mentioned aliens, where is the evidence aliens DID do it?



So which is it, complete or incomplete?



From: The Discovery of the Ramp





Where is the evidence that you can't get stone up a ramp? Also, it is known that the stone was quarried. The concrete theory was recently killed when scientific analysis of the blocks was done.



Even if 40,000 people were used in the construction with a population of 1,000,000 that's 4/10ths of 1 per cent. It's entirely reasonable they could handle it.



No, what this says is that they maximized production while minimizing waste.

cormac

Can you link us tho this concrete theory being killed?

many of the things here I have read before and have not read any refute, though I am some what bias as to what I read. But if there be someone to refute I think this post pretty much says it all as to why one would even consider an outside alternative, or at least consider that the egyptians where far more intelligent then we give them credit. Interesting to see the responses to this prior post....

the whynsos ...ya don't leave a copy of an idiots guide to how to build the pyramids lying about, but ya build a tomb out in the open to be seen from miles away? Why leave how ya built it when the pyramid itself is an open invitation for robbers....

Hi Qoais,

Here's a link.

Pyramids packed with fossil shells

Also, with any concrete there is required a substructure to make it stronger. Usually rebar, chicken wire or some such is used. There is no indication of any substructure to the blocks.

cormac

Of what possible value can it be to future tomb robbers to know
whether ramps, kites, or aliens were employed at building these?

As long as we're on the subject; what evidence is there that there
was ever a dead king or a treasure in any of the great pyramids?

People developed these theories on the basis of what was known
in the 19th century. If later pyramids had treasure then they fig-
ured the earlier ones did as well.

No. The prevention of lookting hardly holds together as a reson that
they wouldn't talk about construction techniques. Though it might
make an argument for the lack of blueprints.

Thanks cormac, I have seen that site. Davidovits did refute that theory because of his own research. In his work, he shows the numolites were not layered as would be expected, when nature is laying down deposits, but all mixed up and jumbled as if they had been stirred. Have you read Davidovit's work? If not, I can link you to a video.

I missed the last few seconds:

http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/Qo...ari-kat-eng.flv

The Egyptians weren't Mayan. The Egyptians left drawings of almost everything else.

http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyra...nload-chapter-1

yes...i know.....do you see my point now?
they didnt show the Greatest Achievement. why? i dunno

So what? Now anytime an alternative to the ramp theory is mentioned
it has to be supported. You suppose that a theory with almost no sub-
stantiation is so solid that alternatives can't even be mentioned?


Where is the evidence that you can get enough stone to build a mountain
up a ramp? The delivery rate needed to finish this structure is just stag-
gering.

I read the stupid article too and it left far too many unanswered question
to have much meaning. There appeared to be structural errors in the
technique as well but that just may be poor reporting. This theory is
wounded but hardly dead.


How do you get 40,000 people on a ramp? How do you even get 2,000
people on a ramp. The simple fact is no one can do any work whatsoever
without having his human needs met and room to work. This is a concept
that many project managers fail to grasp and then whine when the project
is never completed. They tend to blame the workers for failing to break
the laws of physics.


No. I could make the exact same argument that the aliens were good at
math so were therefore not wasteful. IT STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHERE
THE HELL 50,000,000,000 POUNDS OF RAMPING MATERIAL SUPPOSEDLY
WENT!!!! At least with the alien theory one could claim they vaporized it
so it's now alien theory 1, ramp theory 0.

The simple fact is that this ramping material is not in evidence so IT'S MOST
HIGHLY IMPROBABLE THAT IT EVER EXISTED.

There's an ancient legend that the ramps were built of natron and washed
away in the rain. This is much closer to reality than that here were ever ramps
up which stones were dragged.

Ah. Maybe I'll make a convert of you yet. My theory covers this pretty thoroughly.

lol i dunno. but i just read the above post. not bad. i share some of those same views on the ramp theories people have put forth over time.

Your welcome Qoais,

The difference between the last link I posted and what you said of Davidovits' description of the numolites begs the following question. Are the tops of all the blocks the original tops as they were quarried, or have some been turned over, to the side, etc? Could be he was seeing blocks turned various ways and assumed they were "poured" that way.

Also, where is the evidence for the areas the material was mixed/created in?

Still no evidence for substructure to the blocks.

One of his assumptions was that there was no ramp, evidence of which has recently been found.

cormac

The evidence of ramping was at about the 75' level. The first '75 are a piece
of cake since none of these blocks need to be lifted very high. It's the ones at
the top that were far more difficult to raise. How were these lifted?

Most of the pyramid is higher than 75'. So how was the pyramid built? It's a
simple question and there is no evidence for ramps at higher levels.

Obviously higher ramps might be made out of the precious wood which Egypto-
logists never tire in saying was scarce and difficult to obtain. But the question
remains; how do you get 40,000 people on a ramp?

I thought these videos are pretty intriguing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrYiiqGBWe0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCpNr5EMMJw...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuFO675V8ss...feature=related

While you view them can someone please explain to me the "curse of the Pharoes" and how there is a vortex of energy emanating from the apex of the pyramid?

Im dying to know.

theyd need aaaalot of wood to build those things up then. and also if they were using the wood logs to roll the blocks around through the sand. that means theyrs using all this lumber and taking away All the palm date trees there. which are sources of food for them. not sure if theyd do that

They would need a rock, a piece of string, and two sticks. Nothing more.

Where do people get these ridiculous ideas?



Actually, no they rarely tell us anything at all about how a structure was built.

In fact, there are far more questions to be asked about construction in various Egyptian temples than there are concerning construction of any pyramid.

There are stones in many Egyptian temples that are far larger than any stone in any pyramid, and some of these have been placed as lintels over doorways.

No written explanation of how these were erected was ever discovered.

Check out John Anthony West's website for more on these stones:

Source (my emphases.)


Ramps were not hidden. The ramps, the remains of which (as Cormac said) have been excavated at the Great Pyramid (as well as several others) were made mostly of sand and were demolished because they "hid" the pyramids. Same reason they take the scaffolding down after finishing construction on a modern building.

Claiming ramp materials are "not in evidence" is simply telling a lie. You've been linked to the report of the most recent discovery of ramps, those of the Great Pyramid, several times now so you really can no longer claim innocence or ignorance, cladking. All that's left for you is to claim purposeful mischaracterization (lying, IOW.)

Harte

...And if I open the link it will be the same stuff that I've shown many times before to
be meaningless to the question. Indeed, it will have been answered in the very post
you're quoting.

I rarely confront words on a computer screen but if you're looking to take this up a
notch then you might want to reconsider.

cladking,



The article never mentioned aliens, that was your doing. Had nothing to do with the article.



You're kidding right. The Plateau is surrounded by limestone. There is no evidence that it couldn't be done.



Really? By whose standards? Taking lower estimates of 590,712 blocks in the pyramid, only working 3 months, it would take a little over 3 years to build the Great Pyramid. Upper estimates of 2,600,000 blocks at 3 months working would take a little more than 16 years. Both of these are at the level of 3 blocks a minute. How is this considered STAGGERING?



Now you are being ridiculoous. Nowhere did I say they were on the ramp at the same time, nor would they have to be. That was an upper estimate of 40,000 people total.



So, I take it that until everything is explained to you 100% you will not believe any of it. Gotcha!!

Not saying it's proof, but it has the potential of answering many questions. Take a look at the gravimetric picture of the pyramid here: [url="http://www.archaeology.org/0705/etc/pyramid.html"[/url]

If those don't look like ramps, I don't know what does.

cormac

Okay, since you refuse to, I will do it for you:

From Cormac's link (which I have provided several times as well.)

On the other hand:

So, please tell me the part about "The evidence of ramping was at about the 75' level."
Will you continue to ignore the fact that the higher-up stones are much smaller than those on the lower levels?
Did you not read that the ramp "would have leaned gainst the pyramid's faces?" Once you get above 30 meters, the ramps no longer contacted the ground - hence no remains.

Very simple and not "mysterious" at all.

What is your explanation for the ramps, if not for construction?

Harte

yeah, those Are ramps, in the little pictures people made, with their Opinions on how to TRY and build a pyramid
so whats your point?

Something has to be internally consistent for me to believe it.




I agree. It's interesting but hardly convincing.

The ironic part of this story is that this research was among the many projects turned
down. They simply don't allow much research on the Great Pyramid (or any other) un-
less you already agree with the 19th century science. Eventually someone might come
along who is willing to debunk Houdin's theory and he'll be allowed to work. Guess what
his findings will be.

I look at it this way: If it looks like crap, smells like crap and you actually see it coming from the southbound end of a northbound mule, it ain't hamburger. I don't need everything explained.

cormac

I wasn't talking about the drawings, I was talking about the gravimetric picture in the bottom left. Looks rather like a wrap around ramp. If it were just blocks stacked on each other, one would expect the gravimetric image to be more uniform and bland. As is, it appears more consistant with an internal ramp system.

cormac

May be. But it looks like the score is still aliens 1; ramps 0

Only because you want it to be true.

cormac

OK. Here's another example of what I'm talking about when
I suggest that the Pyramid Texts must be taken literally.

utterance #460

868a. To say: O N.,

868b. thy water, thy cool water-libation is the inundation of the Great One (who) which is come forth from thee...

The inundation of the Great One is the God Osiris. He is both specifically
and generically male but he is also a thing. When referring to the God there
is no doubt that it is "who" or "male" but here they are speaking of the water
which comes forth, hence it is "which" rather than "whom".

Of course this isn't conclusive of geysers. Osiris is the inundation after all.
But I would point out that this does specifically say "cool water" which would
not be entirely consistent with the "big muddy" in the valley below. In other
places it still refers to effervescence and water like wine. These never apply
to the Nile which is better known as the source for schistosomiasis than as a
source for fresh, clean, and cool water.

Water welling up from deep caverns would be cool.

this is the bit i liked......


Ramps? yes
Aliens? nope

besides which there are other sites which appear to have evidence of ramps being used.

As far as i can gather....and i may be being incredibly stupid here again.....but you were wondering why if the pyramids were built by humanses and not alienses there were no writings/depictions of the construction process.....hence my answer.

as you surely know lots of tools have been found....ooomanses toools.

and im sure ive seen a depiction of a block being pulled on a sled by oxen somewhere.
i been there about five or six times, been inside both 'big ones' a number of times, been up and down the country plenty. any suggestion that Aliens made the pyramids is, frankly, a joke.

868a. To say: O N.,

868b. thy water, thy cool water-libation is the inundation of the Great One (who) which is come forth from thee...

To expand on this a little for those who are less familiar with the Pyramid Texts;

"N." is the recently deceased king. In life he is responsible for the inundation,
the crops coming in and, yes, the geysers. In death N doesn't really lose these
responsibilities. He is the Horus king which means he still is alive in the land of
Horus (where the pyramids are). N becomes Osiris when he dies or is at the very
least an equivalency. So N is the inundation as well as the water it contains. As
the source of the inundation HE would be referred to as WHO. ...As the water of
which he is comprised, a WHAT (which).

I've yet to find what appears to be an error in the original work. Some may be
hiding in the translation though. The Mercer translation is exceedingly good and
has very few errors. Most of these are in numbering and punctuation.

Although it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, you can't just pick and choose what you wish to be true. If you are going to suggest that the Pyramid Texts must be taken literally, than it ALL must be taken literally. In the Book of the Dead, more accurately titled "The Book of the Coming forth by Day" is described the perilous journey of Re, the personification of the sun, through the underworld. Care to explain how this is literally true when we know where the sun goes at night?

cormac

Cladking, have a look at this. After thinking the Djed pillar and the King's Chamber looked similar, I remembered that I'd checked out the theory once upon a time, that the GP was a giant pump.



Link here to see how it works, there's a little animation thingy.

http://gizapump.gameroom.com/pg5.htm

On the right, you'll see an aquaduct bringing the water in. Perhaps the ramp you say is about 75', could be what held up the aquaduct.

I think you are sweet

You do know that the egytpians you mention are a different culture than the todays egyptian - do you?
Geneticly we would have to pick the ancestors of tribe of the Wattusis.
And what egyptians are you talking about? the Plateau is older then 10.500 years - do you understand what that means?
Todays egyptian have no connection whatsoever with the pharaohs - they came later into the land - all they own today are ruins of the past.
If you have been ever in Cairo and living with the egypts, you would wonder how this could be the descendants from pharaos.
Surely you have been there, seen all and read the old books - befor the internet became the hype.

...staying sweet ain't easy, I see no one has refuted ur original post. Ya know I kinda figure the Egyptians were of a different race cause todays Egyptians ain't red...at least that is the argument put forward when people of Negroid descent say egyptians were black. Keep up the good posts this is looking interesting, proof of ramps so most likely done by humans but no proof of it being a tomb. Proof we could have carved and possibly moved the lime stone no proof we could have done the same for the granite...interesting.

the whynsos a moment can last a life time, thing is we don't want it to

...ya do know that which I wrote in bold wasn't directed at you V but at lil gremlin based on his comment as to why one would leave instructions on how to build the pyramids. And to lil G I agree it is foolish to do so but as I previously posted why build it to big and in the open its begging to be taken advataged of.

Our only copies of the book of the dead are versions which were heavily edited after
the geysers were forgotten. This work was probably a little newer and perhaps more
utilitarian to most Egyptians.

But you're right that geysers are much less in evidence in the book of the dead. There
are tantalyzing clues which survive the transformations.

Even in the Pyramid Texts there is a short series of utterances that fits very poorly and
a handfull elsewhere which either don't support or even contradict these ideas. Also ma-
ny of these are still fairly opaque to my understanding and might either prove or entirely
undermine the concept.

But the vast majority of those which I believe support it all dovetail very well.

The point of the utterance I quoted isn't that they had geysers. The second paragraph
is really parenthetical. My understanding is that Egyptologists already believe (correctly
I believe) that Osiris was the inundation. The point was merely to reinforce the earlier
point that literal reading does eliminate at least many of these apparent errors.

I've merely picked what appears to be true from the evidence available. Perhaps this
evidence has led me far astray from the truth but we all need to consider the evidence.
The Pyramid Texts are just as much evidence as the pyramids themselves, and yes, The
Book of the Dead.

yes i know.
It is constructive to speculate and discuss atlernative explanations. OK.
The information avaiable online, as far as i can say, is not sufficient to digg deeper into the rabbithole.
And disclosure online seems not realistic for me.
Individual aproached and selfstudy with old books is good. One book that comes into my mind that is worth its wight in gold is
Pyramid Odyssey WM.R.Fix , Mercury Media, ISBN 0-932487-00-9 ,
there are other books more on science and higher-math, but this book is a easy reading and a good start.

Here are some photos i took 1993.
This photo shows the exact allignment of the base-blocks. Interresting alignment also.



More on the detail of the seam