Many Christian posters have “assumed” that upon death an innocent child's soul departs to heaven.

Topic for discussion:
* If you believe souls go to heaven, can you quote the sources for your belief?
* If you believe otherwise, can you quote your sources, please?

Please discuss these opposing views.
Karlis

Great question!



When I was a Christian many years ago I was told that untill a child reaches a certain age he/she goes to heaven. At the same token I was told that if the parents are not Christian that the child goes to hell, at least up to a certain age. This made me extemely mad as my mom gave birth to 7 kids & all of them dided but me.

Romans 2:15-16 shows that those with a clear conscious go to heaven. This is the view that can be gleamed from the Bible. Others have different ideas regarding that and the afterlife or lack of it itself.

I have not assumed, I have studied... in Isaiah 7:16 scripture tells us the Jesus would not be born with knowledge of good and evil, instead he would grow into it... and Deuteronomy 1:39 says that the children who did not know how to choose good or evil would in the the promised land unlike the adults who sinned knowingly and would not recieve it.

From these scriptures, together with references from the NT, I have, as many others have, come to the conclusion that a child who cannot knowledgably choose good or evil is not punished for his ignorance.

I will be interested to see if anyone else has a thought...

How can a child under the age of 8 even know what a conscious is?

Secondly that verse says nothing about children.

ON a side note I was told that God does not judge that verse says other wise.....



Since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Romans 2:15-16

Hi Moonlit,
I wonder if you could possibly expand on your above answer, please?

I am unclear as to what you mean.
Karlis

I don't know who told you otherwise but all kids who die under 8 go to heaven doesn't matter what parents believe. Also all persons who have mental problems and never really learn good from bad go to heaven no matter what age.

Hi Danielost -- I'm sorry, but a simple statement as you just made can not possibly be accepted as a fact, without you giving proof for it.

May I ask how you know that:
* all kids who die under 8 go to heaven
* all persons who have mental problems and never really learn good from bad go to heaven no matter what age.

Opinions need to be backed up by facts, agreed?
Karlis

Church teachings

Sure...
In Isaiah the scripture is speaking of the virgin birth and the childhood of Jesus... " 15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken."

Also in Deuteronomy the scripture says " 39 Moreover, your little ones... and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.".

These scriptures indicate that there is a time before adulthood that a child does not know good or evil in order to choose between; therefore, they are viewed differently than adults and recieve justice and mercy related to their ignorance.

Could you please tell us exactly which church teachings? Can you give explicit sources of these teachings?

Thanks,
Karlis

Psalms 51:



John 14:



Acts 4:



So, having shown we are conceived in sin, and also showing that only through Christ can one be saved the question has to be asked can children (infants) knowingly and with the full understanding of what they are doing, accept Christ as their saviour?

If not then I'd have to say they are excluded.

moonlit,

I considered these (and others) but all are from the OT and are commandments from God to the tribes of Israel. They do not take into account the later conversion of the Gentiles for whom all of Jewish Law does not apply.

In the NT (which is where Christianity hails from) the only commandment for entrance into God's presence is the acceptance of Christ as your saviour. An age of accountability is not (as far as I can see) mentioned.

The whole problem with that theory is that for everyone who agrees with you, there are the same amount of people who disagree with you.

While I admit to being no biblical scholar, I would have thought the verse...

Romans 2:



...clarifies the two verses you quoted as referring to the End of Days "in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ", and not simply when one dies, which is the presumed initiating act for ascension to heaven or not.

I have understood that upon the physical death of a child, because she has not been on this Earthly plane for very long, her soul is not as anchored in materialism and Earthly pleasures, so in turn her soul has a quicker and less agonizing departure from the Physical plane back to Soul World and can thus reconnect easily and quickly to the Spirit World and be incarnated once again.

I am curious to know why you think these are commands... they are statements made about events, not laws or rules given to people. To say that they only apply to Jews, or to OT scriptures not only ignores the context in which they are written, but also implies that the OT has no link to the NT when clearly the example in Isaiah is a reference to the life of Jesus who was himself considered without the knowlegde of good or evil in childhood as it is written.

I am Mormon.

remember christians are supposed to at least think about the laws in the ot too.

Well, the OT was not written for Christians. I appreciate that opinion is divided, but it is my understanding that the references attributed to Christ in OT prophecies are (in Jewish canon, which the OT was solely before it was co-opted by Christians) in fact references to the Jewish Messiah, which Christ is not.

Given the antecedence of Judaism over Christianity (as each belief is subjective and thus equal) I choose to accept their argument.

There are a multitude of references in the OT that what God, or the various prophets, said applied to the tribes of Israel specifically.

As for these being commands, in Deuteronomy God is commanding that Caleb, Joshua and the children will see the Promised Land, as he is also commanding the other leaders of the tribes (and the tribes themselves I presume) shall wander in the wilderness for their faithlessness. I do not mean commands as in commandments (or Laws), they are differnt entirely.



Yes, but see above. And Christ himself is quoted as saying he came not to overthrow the Law, thus what applied in the OT specifically to the tribes of Israel still apply specifically to the tribes of Israel. Gentiles must approach God via Christ.

Actually the way into heaven from the new testament is to do the will of God. If you accept Christ as your savior but 'hate your brother' etc then you arnt truly a christian and therefore wont get into heaven.

And thus we are divided...

I can see where you have come from, and I cannot agree. That being the case, I appreciate your point of view; however, I think in discussing the point we will derail this thread which I do not want to do. For now, it will be the OP's part to examine our respective points of view and come to his own conclusion.

See you again my friend...

Actually I can say from expierence that not all children go right to heaven, including infants. For a long time I had always assumed that like the rest of you children go to heaven because they are innocent. I learned differently when I felt my dead brother (don't know which one) hanging around me and they had both died one at child birth and one 7 days later. One would certainly assume that both would of HAVE to gone to heaven, not until I felt one of them constantly hanging around me as if trying to live through me, some would call this a 'cold spirit' and no it's not like a possession.

If this wouldn't have happened to this day I would still think that all children go up to heaven, now I know that it isn't just 'innocence' that gets a person to where they want to go, they have to want to go to that place. And for an infant not wanting to die it makes you wonder how much does the mind really let up, how old or 'mature' are we when we are a baby and what part of the subconcious explodes when you die making you have regrets at such a young age. All of these questions and more I've asked myself, there is no 'clean' answer as the bible gives it is certaintly different than from what most assume.

I would think, brave, that in Christian belief anyone who hates their brother has not accepted Christ as their saviour (into their heart etc).

In Judaism, everyone ends up in "heaven" but before that everyone goes through a stage of purifying in Gehinom. Gehinom is like hell, but it is not eternal and usually only lasts 11 months at most.

Sorry I've been away for the past day or so, but my view on this question is - I don't know. It's impossible to tell from the Bible whether a child is going to heaven or not. It is of course very possible that he/she will. But you can make an equally compelling argument to say that they won't (though to me, the matter is not too great, because the alternative to heaven, I believe, is not torture, or even separation, but death complete). My view is that you can argue that a person who has not yet gained the capacity to make a conscious choice to disobey God cannot therefore make a conscious decision to follow God either. Sin is defined as a conscious decision to live our own way and not God's, so I believe a child who has not yet developed this cognitive ability has not sinned.

Most Christians view "original sin" not as a taint that we are all born with (ie, condemned by the first sin). But rather, many take the view that we are born with the ability to sin, and when confronted with a choice to live for God or live for ourselves, we invariably choose ourselves, thus "sin". I am not condemned for Adam's sins - only my own (and God knows I have enough of those to worry about, lol).

that said, the question then becomes - "when is a child old enough to decide"? I don't even want to hazard a guess at this one. There is no way anyone can make an informed guess, though some denominations of Christianity have gone as far as put an age-limit into their doctrines (where they will find that in the Bible, I have no idea). In the end, God will know our hearts - I'll leave it up to God.

All the best,

My dad had always taught me that any child who had not been baptized will not go to heaven, but also will not go to hell, that they would go to purgatory. My dad has always been a devout Episcopalian but has recently become even more devout (if that is possible). I was baptized when I was an infant, but my brothers, who are now 11 years old, have not been baptized yet. I find this ironic, personally, for my family because according to my dad, I will go to heaven and my brothers will go to purgatory. Sorry for rambling on!

I've mentioned this before, but if you read Romans 1 and 2 together, the overriding theme is that the Law is something that is written on our hearts (ie, even non-Christians can keep the laws Our consciences therefore can sometimes defend us (because we do the "right" thing), but also condemn us. I think it is an abuse of this passage to argue that a clear conscience = salvation. Rather the point being made is that we all know we have done wrong at some point, and therefore our consciences condemn. Otherwise, we are left with the unsavoury concept that a serial killer is justified because they believe they were doing the right thing.

All the best,

Just becasue we have the New Testament does not make the teachings of the OT go away, or any less important.
Obviously they were written because they are also important and should be granted the same respect as the New... Im thankful the New arent as narrow.

The important thing to remember here, is that children do not know right from wrong until at an age taught and able to understand. Therefore they are pure of heart. And same with a child such as that with Downe syndrome (for example)...
they are the most loving open hearted child, some even as an adult. There is an unconditional acceptance by them...

This is why I feel also that children are also more open to spiritual experiences too. Because they aer pure of heart.

It is when older and one has the choice to make their own decisions, and chooses the sinful choice on purpose over what is right, this is where us adults screw up!

Making the wrong choice as a child and not knowing any better is the difference....They simple dont know better so young.
Of course they cant understand what the word concious means. And thats the whole point. Its not a "knowing" action of evil...its more a not knowing any better not to.

Romans 9:11

11 (For being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.....

(It says here that an unborn child has not committed evil, or have not sinned. So does God condemn to hell the innocent, those who have not sinned?? There are so many verses that say that He does not. That we are condemned ONLY for what WE do....

No offense, but I have to admit I am quite dissapointed that no one replied to what I wrote, seeing as you all kept talking soley about the bible. I was trying to show that everything isn't in some ancient book, but through life itself...my own personal expierence that I don't even like talking about, but I shared because I though it might open some of your eyes.

I usually don't complain, but it can be a bit annoying when you show a new perspective and everyone just skips past it, and thats how my brother feels everyday of his life being completely ignored for the rest of his 'life' even though he is dead

No your right when children die they go to paradise along with all of the other rightous people. But when judgement days come they then get their free ticket to heaven. This does not mean that they get the final goal. The final goal being to become gods of their own worlds/universes.

Hi everybody -- so far opinions have been given, but no poster has given a source for that opinion.

So, here again is my OP for your consideration:
-=-=-

Many Christian posters have “assumed” that upon death an innocent child's soul departs to heaven.

Topic for discussion:
* If you believe souls go to heaven, can you quote the sources for your belief?
* If you believe otherwise, can you quote your sources, please?

Please discuss these opposing views.
Karlis

In most world relgions, children that die, undoubtably go to heaven, they are not judged. They are innocent and die at an age of innocence, they are inhabitants of heaven, whether christian, muslims, hindu, jewish, atheist, or agnostic.

you ask for a source, too many to quote from each religion, but i can assure, that christianity, judaism, hinduism (Vedantists) and Islam prescribe to this, and in my relgion which is the latter, it mentioned in the quran and Hadith (documented saying of muhammed pbuh)

Thanks for the post Ozi -- "but" you have not given any sources.
Can you quote some sources of authority, please?

*Specifically* regarding going to heaven?
Going to heaven, or not going to heaven, is the key question in my OP.
Karlis

i BELEIVE THERE WAS SOME AT TE BEGINING OF THE THREAD.... oops sorry for the caps...

Read both of my posts in this discussion, especially my first post which I believe is on the first page...then you'll understand my view point on this.

Sorry, but you post seemed more like you made a statement rather than looking for input.

So here is my take...

Although I am Christian, I feel out side the box, because my beleifs are not to a "tee" the way most Christians are. Im more a spiritual Christian ....Where most Christians dont beleive in visits from our loved ones etc, but I know better from experience. So....I consider myself Christian because Christ is my center. And the ability is a gift....from good, for good.....

I feel when we die we are judged then and there, our fate made...

We then move on to where we are sent. If we waited for a "total" judgement day, then there would be no spirits amung us here on earth.... Some are granted Heaven, some are sent to Hell, and some left in limbo for a while, and given a opportunity so to speak of a second chance.... like a waiting place in between.

Your brother was indeed granted the privilege of entering heaven since he was a child.

And your right, he either didnt want to go there yet, OR he was more intriqued with being here.....

I do feel that also once they have gone to Heaven, they may come back to "visit" as well...although there is a period of time that passes. They dont come right away. There is a period of "adjustment/orientation" they go thru first.

Animals have this ability too, as I have had visits from my past pets, my dad, aunt, and a friend I have worked with in the past, and a past boyfriend..... However, they only come in dreams to me. I cant see them while awake. Some times I get answers to situations too....

Yes, but there is also another possibilty most forget about, being two places at once. Sounds insane, but think about it what if only part of them goes to heaven, but some of their energy is not 'gone' but rather placed into other objects/animals/humans around them, or even use some of their energy later in life to go to their great grandchildren. You mentioned 'visiting' it is sort of like a visit, except in a different manner, because you never do really die if that makes sense. Not talking about constantly staying on earth as some 'immortal' but rather going through 'phases' of different places/times.

your right, we dont really die... Our spirit goes on, only our shell of a body falls away and dies....I dont beleive our spirit "seperates", but because it is spirit, it can be in places at anytime.

The bible does not speak of this issue in any direct way therefore this no specific verse one can point to and say this is it. The concept of children going directly to heaven is a point of doctrine based on various other scriptures which support the idea but do not speak of it directly.

In Judaism, everyone goes to heaven anyways, so it wouldn't be any different for a child that died.

Here are some passages from the Bible:

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,


1 John 2:12
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.


Matthew 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.


Matthew 5:8
Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


Proverbs 8:32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed [are they that] keep my ways.
(How has a baby or little child turned from God's ways?)


Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


Psalms 24:3
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.



Numbers 14:28 - 32
Say unto them, [As truly as] I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, [concerning] which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
But [as for] you, your carcasses, they shall fall in this wilderness.


Romans 9:11
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

the truth is no one knows. no one really knows what happens when anyone dies. everything else is faith .............. not proof.

Here is something that may put an interesting spin on the discussion.

Source-
http://anti-matters.org/ojs/index.php/anti...article/view/24
Aquisition of Donor Traits in Recipients of Heart Trannsplants

May add to this discussion...especially the one about the boy who "knew" he was going to die...and his purpose was to give his heart to a recipient whom he named Danny in a song he wrote prior to death.
Amazingly, the recipient was named Danielle...
Enjoy

Hi Warrior -- I appreciate the numerous quotes that you and others gave, but, when considered in the content of the subject matter addressed, not one of these quotes relates to the souls of children (or adults) going to heaven after death. I will add a short comment after each of your quotes.

Basically, my intent for this thread was to show that according to the Bible, nobody's soul goes to heaven when they die.
There are no Scriptures that specifically support the fictitious belief that souls go to heaven, are there?
What do you think?
This verse (and the context) states that Jeremiah was “consecrated”, that is – specifically dedicated or appointed as a prophet to the nations -- to announce specific messages to many nations from God during his life-time.
There is no hint here that he was destined to go to heaven.

Here, this phrase , “little children” does not mean young, innocent children; rather the phrase addresses the saints to whom this letter is written. Again, there is no indication as to whether children, or anyone, goes to heaven.

This verse mentions angels in heaven and children on Earth. However, no hint is given that these children would go to heaven.

Actually, I think you could have quoted the whole of this chapter, Warrior; Jesus was teaching his disciples about a way of life that they must lead, if they wished to “enter” the Kingdom of God.

Something I would like to point out though:
In my opinion, mainstream Christian churches completely mis-interpret Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom of God (Kingdom of Heaven).According to Scriptures, Jesus will establish his rule on Earth at his next coming, and his Kingdom will be Headquartered at Jerusalem, not in heaven.

Matthew chapter five does not promise entry into heaven; but rather, points to the resurrection of “saints” as immortal spirit-beings -- literal children of God, who will rule the world’s nations under Christ for 1000 years. If you check other Scriptures, you will find that the resurrected spirit beings will be residing here on Planet Earth, during the 1000-year rule of Christ over the world's nations.

Here, the word “children” does not refer to immature children or babes. This word refers to mature people, as is translated in Strong’s H1121
בּן
bên
bane
From H1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like H1, H251, etc.): - + afflicted, age, [Ahoh-] [Ammon-] [Hachmon-] [Lev-]ite, [anoint-]ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, [Assyr-] [Babylon-] [Egypt-] [Grec-]ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant[-est], whelp, worthy, young (one), youth.

Again, the context of this verse does not indicate a future in heaven.

This verse refers to mature, God-abiding believers in God – not to young children. Is this location in heaven? No, the reference is to Mount Moriah, and the hill of Zion.

These verses have to be taken in context of the over-all story. Because of unbelief, the older generation were condemned to wander in the wilderness for 40 years till they died. On the other hand, all the younger Israelites (those under 20 years of age at the start of this 40-year period) crossed the Jordan River and entered the promised land, 40 years later.

I think you may be taking this verse out of context.

In this instance, the verse you quote refers to a one-off event, concerning Esau and Jacob – it does NOT refer to unborn children in general.
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "The elder shall serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Ripley, the Bible Scriptures quite clearly inform us that upon death everyone remains dead, and nobody goes to a heaven, hell or purgatory. There will be a number of resurrections in the future, according to Scriptures -- and yes, to believe that this will be so has to be "taken on faith".

Regards,
Karlis

Hi Puridalan -- I don't doubt your experiences with a spirit being, but I am convinced that this spirit is not the soul of your brother. I could write more, but I'll just copy-paste the following -- you will have to decide for yourself where lies the truth.

... the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (KJV)

I think that the "Spirit realm" has dangers that may possibly lead us astray,
Karlis

Karlis, in my opinion, you need to always check out verses like this in a "real", Jewish translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Would you trust a Moslem translation of the new testament?

let's see, shall we, what Kohelet really said:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/...h/Chapter-9.htm


First of all, Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) is in the final part of the Bible, the Writings (literature), regarded as not necessarily direct from God. According to Jewsh tradition, the book was written by King Solomon in middle age, although we don't really know the author. It is a beautiful piece of writing, by a man having difficulty facing old age. Contrary to the Xian interpretation of this passage, it does not imply that the dead do not go anywhere, just that they are cut off from the living. Stop listening to your priest or preacher, use your own brain.

If your interpretation were correct, the witch of Endor would never have been able to summon Samuel from the dead for Saul.

Yes GM, that is exactly what it means for christians as well, the passage does not imply that the dead do not go anywhere. As you said they are cut off from the world of the living. They are in the spirit world, but they are also in a specific place in the spirit world. Hades, the abode of the dead, whether they are believers or not.