where we were talking about it.


Show me the transitional life forms.

i would like to see some............and not just fragments of a skull... or writting because thats not conclusive in my eyesd.

Wait... writing is not conclusive in your eyes? what did you believe again? Where do you draw the conclusions you base your way of living from in other words.

thats different! i believe god worked through the authers of the bible to write it. i dont know science can be a bit diseaving at times. plus ive felt the holy spirit inside me and the presence of our Lord. tahst what made me a believer. i used to believe in evolution. thats changed in 1 night

The problem with your transitional hominids is that as you go back from one gen. to another they each have a different human aspect. One walked upright but the one before that had a bigger brain and the one before that walked upright and the one before that walked upright and had a bigger brain.


This includes the Neanderthals, they had a bigger brain than we do. but it seems that they died out and so did the their cousins the crow magnums.(sp. ch.)

aparently they didnt die out. they evolved into us.

Lol how am I already quoted in this thread?!? With an unrelated comment?

If you are looking at brain/weight ratios - Neanderthals may have been slightly less in that context as they were more heavily muscled, stockier than us.

Can you try and rephrase, I am not quite getting it? are you saying that in evolution there should be a clear directional trend towards these species being more like we are now? Rephrase just a tad

I would like to ask a favor of you. Would you take the time to read the first two posts of the thread im linking here?
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...20688&st=75

I think you will then understand that the complexity of our human body and our brian in particular can be decieving. I don't share your view about that science can be decieving in other ways that it can be so because its written and explained by humans..... actually just like your bible if I may add, divine inspiration does not change the fact that it was written and expressed by men. Anyways give it a try, maybe you will see that one nights feeling is peanuts compared to what others deal with.
Take realy good care of yourself.

Nope they didn't we evolved in western Africa when they were dieing out in the middle east and Europe and maybe north America. Yes our paths did cross but it was over for them.

Human evolution is only one aspect of transitional species, they are shown in all forms of life. (I don't know that as a fact, but if not "all forms" then most forms at least)

lol well ur entitled to ur beliefs im not up for being convinced that mine is complete crap. i used to think like u but i got Cured

No I am saying that there is no such thing as a clear cut transitional species to mankind. specially since all of the candidates ended in dead ends.

By the the Neanderthal teenager's brain was the same size as ours. They problem was that they didn't have any imagination. But when you have to ea 6000 calories a day to live you don't have much time to make jewelry do you assuming you have to hunt for most of it.

They may have been stocker but that was because they worked out more than we do. They were also at least a foot shorter than we are.

If you look at a diagram of evolution, you'll notice it branches, and a lot of those branches do end, But they are all still a part of the same "tree". So, just because a species ends, doesn't means its not related to other species.

I have seen those trees and man just doesn't seem to fit into any of the branches. Man just seems to appear in the fossil record over night the same as we are today. Although we may have smaller teeth do to the fact that we eat more cooked thus softer foods.

I am sorry you let stubbornness get in the way for something that could have been life changing if you read it with the incredible open mind I saw you brag about in another thread.

You never used to think like me, I read plenty to see you were never close to thinking like me, no offence.
Have an absolute day

it doesn't explain my first thought on the day of my birth.

for your information i did read it. i just dont think it worthy of writting about coz i dont believe it. lol and for your information d******* i never bragged atal lol

Danielost, I find it difficult deciphering what you are trying to say in your posts.

What is your rationale for posting this, because appearing overnight on a geological timescale isn't a concept that is at odds with evolutionary principle.

Your statement means that you would be more willing to subscribe to a more punctualist view of evolution, rather than a gradualist view.

My point is that of all the animals on the planet. Man doesn't seem to have evolved from another species. All of the fossil records of all of the hominids end at dead ends non of them lead to modern man. True some lead to more than one species but non lead to modern man. As I said we just seem to appear out of no where in western africa about 150,000 years ago.

First I think it maybe important to define what we are talking about here. What is a transitional form or fossil? Or even a missing link for that matter?

To understand this we need to understand a bit about species, more importantly lineages.

All life today and throughout the history of earth can be thought of as a continuation or a branching of a lineage. Species is a concept we use to making talking about organisms easier. Species are not real, it is just a man made concept given name. The point where one species begins in history and another ends is arbitrary, because a species is not a set thing --We think this is so, because our perception of time and our short stay here on earth.

Its best to describe life as a descendant of a lineage. A lineage therefore, is a ancestor and all of his descendants --An unbroken line. In this case though, we are referring to populations as ancestors and populations as the descendants.

I think the easiest way to picture it is to think about the color spectrum.

(For the sake of me not having to create a new color bar with a time scale, please imagine time 0 starts on the left hand side and increase going right to the end, which represents present day)

He we can think of the ancestor as one single point (a hue, saturation and value) on the left hand side. The population descendants then are the colors that follow toward the right. Each point is slightly different from the first, Just as in biology each generation's allele frequencies slightly differ from their parent generation.

We apply the term species to a whole grouping of colors, the species red for instance. But in reality each generation is slightly modified from the next, such that we have this slow transition from color to color (what we might collectively lump together as species).

This then means, that each slight change in gradient is a transitional form. Because looking at the past, we can see in every "color generation" slight modification from the previous generation.
This also means that every generation is a transitional form.

The consequence of this is that "transitional forms" as you and other creationists demand is a human construct which only is representative of a snap-shot of evolutionary history --In hindsight as well.

The other consequence of this is that all fossils are transitional, as they are representative of only that generation of organisms.

For example, were I to find a fossil of the RGB value FF3030 which corresponds to the color:


then I know (with the completeness of this color spectrum) that it is transitional. A transition between the populations FF3029 and FF3031. Granted the 3 populations may look nearly identical to the naked eye, but at the populations genomic level they differ.

So you ask to see a transitional fossil? Head to your nearest limestone quarry and spend some time looking at the stones --All of those fossils encapsulated for time immemorial are your evidence.


Let's talk for a moment of missing links and why this is such a poor concept.

Often growing up we were taught science is "searching for the missing link". One day well find it and piece all of our evolutionary history together. This is a lie, one created by media and high school science teachers who seemed to lack and interest in teaching real science.

Missing link implies evolution is a large step process. Going back to the color bar, we might say the missing link between the "red and green species". But, if we find a representative of that "yellow species" what have we done? We have opened the door for the need to find two more missing links, one on either side of the representative yellow species.

Whats worse, is the concept implies that our color evolutionary history went from red to yellow to green. What we have done is gloss over the thousands of slightly different hues that occur in between them.

I will have to come back and continue tomorrow as it is rather late and I am in much need of sleep!

-Copasetic

Not worth writing about? LOL
This is too silly, from the few posts I read from you I recon your jesus would like a word with you anyways when the time comes. but enough of this, I won't waste more time.

no i just dont like talking to people who talk to me like im worthless lol! thats exactly what ur doing. so dont talk to me anymore you not even worth my time

all you had to say was seal or sea lion. Those are land animals becoming sea animals. Man I have to agree your side of the agrument too.

Wow Copasetic, that was great! The evolution/color scale example was astounding. Thanx for that analogy.

Neanderthals are one of those dead end branches. As far as we know, occasionally things have popped up that appear to show interbreeding - but generally this is not accepted. Beginnings of human imagination sheesh that is a whole other topic.....usually involving ochre



Dude, man they seriously did not work out more! That comment has made my day - that you wrote that they were pumping iron. They vill be back!...not lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Homo_sapiens

Between 400,000 years ago and the second interglacial period in the Middle Pleistocene, around 250,000 years ago, the trend in cranial expansion and the elaboration of stone tool technologies developed, providing evidence for a transition from H. erectus to H. sapiens. In the Recent African Origin scenario, migration within and out of Africa eventually replaced the earlier dispersed H. erectus. Homo sapiens idaltu, from Ethiopia, lived from about 160,000 years ago. It is the oldest known anatomically modern human.

dude there are a lot of different ways to work out. The neanderthals where chasing deer through the forest. Caring mammoth steaks back to the cave. Pushing boulders off cliffs to kill the mammoths. Doing what ever they had to to bring home the bacon. remember 6000 calories a day per person during the ice age.

What a wonderfully eloquent way of explaining everything thank you for a fantastic response

I know what you meant and yes exercise can make slight changes to skeletons......but it is similar to saying that lions live a more strenuous life to cheetahs so that explains why they look different.

What about the Neanderthal children that are found? They haven't lived this rigorous lifestyle yet?

And we were also in the same environment, and lived a similar life-style with a similar tool kit for a long time.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted you - tell me if I have

What does that mean?

that is true that is why lions are big cats and cheetahs are small cats.

Thanks!!

Lol I agree! That should be pinned somewhere up the top of this board.

Was that directed at me?

bigger brains does not mean better. a bigger brain is harder to cool down.

each transition begat something better than the one before. or got rid of something not needed.

My first thought was " So this is life!"

I am just saying that there doesn't seem to be a transitional hominid to moderan man.

Danielost, if you get a chance you should read "A short history of nearly everything" by Bill Bryson. Its a great book. The last couple of chapters are devoted to the evolution of Humans and how little we know. I understand your sentiments regarding the transition into modern man, but to be truthful with you, we understand far more about cetacean (whale) evolution than human evolution. Hominid fossils are few and far between and very hard to come by. We have a long ways to go before we understand our origins.

Unless we were handed our origins in oh say a book

There is no good reason to believe that. What evidence is there that our origins come from that?

Human evolution is better understood than you realize, I think.

For instance:


We have a fairly unbroken fossil record dating back some 7-8 million years. Starting with Sahelanthropus who is our oldest (known thus) homo ancestor.

We have even older fossils though, such as Proconsul which dot the scene from 17-27 million years ago (different species mind you). [i]Proconsul]/i] is part of the Superfamily Hominoidea (which contains the extant Apes and Gibbons) and is likely our last common ancestor --Between the Hylobatidae (Gibbons) and Hominidae (Apes, Lesser and Greater).

We actually have a lot of primate fossils like this that speckle our history.

When one zooms in to our more immediate lineage, the picture is much clearer.

erictus lead to neanderthals and cro magnums. those two died off and didn't become us. As I said we just appear out of no where.

Neanderthals went extinct (We think.). That's not a 100% statement, because we (Homo sapiens) may carry some Neanderthal genes (Maybe - the jury is still out on this one.).

Cromagnons were Homo sapiens - US! We aren't extinct - yet - so, Cromagnons aren't extinct, yet.

It's a pretty good bet that both you and I are descendents of Cromagnons.
Doug

No we are not cromagnons.

Wrong, cro-magnons are in fact Homo sapiens
Cro-Magnon

I don't want to derail the thread, but are you sure? Could you have superimposed that memory after, when you were much older? It is interesting because I haven't known anyone else who has remembered their birth.

You develop substantial memories that can last a life time until around age 3. I don't remember anything before 5 or 6.

1 thing at a time so we don't get all jarbaled (SP) up here. So do you then concede your points on transitional forms? (That being that they dont exist?).


Sparky777: It would be interesting to hear your thoughts as well, I hope I have not scared you off.

perhaps some do but I had to point them out. but there are no missing links. two there seems not to be any transitional life forms to modern man. Non of the hominids seem to lead to man. Mordern mans basic design has been the same for 150,000 years.