Good morning all,

I am the worst of the worst when it comes to Religion. I do not believe in the Bible, Jesus or God. I think something false can be a good thing, Santa is not real and he makes millions of children happy, And God is not real and he makes millions of people happy also. The more Ned Flanders type of people in the world is a very good thing.

However to me it seems like a fairy tail, I mean to be put to death for working on a Sunday. All those non Christians to be put to hell for eternity for worshiping the wrong God despite being a kind and very good person. How would my mother feel in Heaven knowing I was being tortured in Hell forever wouldn't she be very sad?

Do you see what I am getting at. Does anyone on here believe in the Bible Jesus and God? And if so why?

Hi there know it all


If you are skeptical you may want to take it up on the spirituality vs skepticism thread


They'd be happy to help you down there

Y'all come back now, ya hear .................

Working on the Sabbath was only punishable by death in the OT under the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was a very strict guideline for living to show us we are not righteous in our own right or just by being human.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

When Jesus came he fulfilled the Law because no man was righteous through only the Law except for Jesus.

The concept of Hell might be a hard thing to grasp as we are only human.
And it does say in the bible God is a jealous God.

I believe there has to be more to the world. No church, upbringing, or anyone else has told me to believe what I do. I have naturally come to it, although my mom is religious also but it was never forced on me.

I think since you have posted here with an open mind, sort of, maybe you could try opening your mind to the possibility of God. But in the end only a sincere effort on your part will suffice I'm afraid.

Moved to Spirituality Vs Skepticism.

Tiggs
[Forum Mod Team]

But yet people continue to teach from the OT but when it comes to others pointing something out in it thats a no no......

I think we can still learn a lot from the OT. I don't ignore such things or questions when they are brought up, but I like to give an insight into the context from which it came before anyone makes any final decisions. If you still have a problem with it then what more can I say or do?

Romans 2:12-16 clearly shows that those who do not follow the Word will not be judged by the law but rather their own conscience. They still have the law written on their hearts though so this is not a case of pretending you have a clear conscience but actually having one. This is the view that can be understood from reading the Bible. Not everyone has this view or should they. The Bible is not for everyone nor should it be. But your assertion that all those who follow another god than the God described in the Bible are not instantly damned to hell regardless of the popular myth.

As far as convincing you it would be a failed effort for one to even try using words. You either have to want to believe from within or find a sense of emptiness to go off searching for something. Maybe if that describes you you might end up following another path. Overall though by what you have described I do not think Christianity is meant for you. With that said anyone who wishes to become one can easily if they really want it. I am one because it is very magical the way spirituality works and while I do not look down on those who are more into legalism and following the Bible just to do it, to talk about God and never experience Him, that form of religion is not for me.



Everyone has different ideas including Christians. Not everyone understands Mosaic law and how it applied only to a certain group at a certain time in history and well under Judaism it might still apply but you would have to get their view. Most important for a Christian is reading the Word, praying, allowing the Spirit to dwell within, and well this is not what most churches teach but some do encourage all the three things I have stated and the most important is reading the Word for yourself and deciding what it means instead of simply accepting someone else's view because they said this is what it says. Of course I am not encouraging you to read the Word at all but simply describing the method that works for me and what I would advise others if they were interested in finding out more about it.

I agree for the most part with you Clovis but Christianity is not meant for him? Are you honestly the one who should decide that for him? I find that most discouraging when he has come out and asked for encouragement.

I say the bible is for everyone and not just a select few and I welcome anyone who is truly interested to give it a chance.

Cloivs, is not trying to convert anyone. And no it is not meant for me I have been down that path & I am most happy with the one I am on now.
You will not find anyone on this fourm trying to convert another we all get along for the most part & respect each others faith.

Be careful what you wish for. There is always the chance that if god chooses to, is a little bored, or simply in one of his quirky fits of humour, he might decide to grab you by the scruff of the neck, shake you a little and say.

"Believe. Whats belief got to do with it.? I'm here and from now on im going to ensure you know it. You will no longer have the luxury of choosing to believe or not, and you had better start learning to live with that"
Dont get too concerned about it. He doesnt seem to do this to very many people, at the best of times, and even fewer in this day and age.

Until he forced his existence into my life, i was like you, and personally, i still would recommend you dont choose to believe in anything. Belief is a very poor basis for doing anything in life. Stick to logic, science and the physically recognised. To most people that seems a lot safer and more comfortable life, (even if that is because ignorance is bliss) although it does miss a lot of the excitement and other blessings provided in living a life where god is a physical reality.

I don't see him trying to convert anyone either. My point is that he is discouraging a religion.

This does not say anything good about your God.

How is he doing that? Please explain.

Hi bleach. I always enjoy your posts. Norwood is right though I am not discouraging but I am at the same time not encouraging either. Simply put people must want to believe in something for them to do so. Be it Christianity, Eurocentric Paganism, or even Santeria. People must have a desire.

Professor, the OP, does not have that desire, he believes it is a fairy tale, at least Christianity, and well any attempt to convince him can only be done through words, intellect, and logic. All which fall in the realm of reason and not faith. One needs faith to believe. What will happen is if you even convinced him through words, talking a good game, or presenting a slick and convincing argument he will find himself in a dead faith, going through the motions, and end up finding himself in a further state of disbelief than when he first started. It would not be a real experience and he would have even further reasons to believe it a fairy tale but could also had to his repertoire that he has tried it and it was not convincing.

Now there are many Christians who are only because of social standing, business connections, family, or even for a sense of community. These are all the wrong reasons to become one and it is questionable if they even truly believe or just offer lip service. Sometimes the only religion they get is on Sunday's or Easter. And while I do not fault them I would not encourage someone to convert to become one of them.

Hope that helps and it is just my opinion. Spirit attracts spirit and if like Mr Walker stated, if God really, really wants Professor, and if professor believes God really exists, then Spirit will call to spirit and Professor will take notice. That is the only convincing that can be done. Now maybe I am just reacting to the title of the post and he really is interested because he is already seeking if that is the case I hope he finds what he seeks.

It's easy enough to see through my first post.

If Clovis disagrees with me he can post here why. I don't understand why you invest such interest in my reply to him or why you intend to play mediator.

au contraire. It says every thing good about my god, but perhaps you have to walk in my shoes to appreciate that.

I was a happy little athiest until god waltzed up, sending angels and performing miracles and giving helpful advice on how to improve my life.. Over the years he has saved my life many times, physically improved it greatly and; emotionally, spiritually improved it beyond compare, even though i thought i had life pretty good as a university educated, healthy young man in Australia in the late 1960's
God has perfected /completed my life in many respects and reformed me into a much better and fulfilled person.I never asked or expected either his insinuation into my life or the blessings he brought, but i can do nothing but sit back in awe at his works.

It does maan that i owe a greater obligation to godthan most people recognise, and thus have to be a better person , but because of our relationship this is neither a chore, nor something i regret.

However, it takes a great deal of adjusting to; physically, emotionally, and psychologically. Thus I would not universally recommend it for everyone, as they might find, having little choice in how to live their life, or in their ability tot believe what ever they choose, a very difficult thing to face.

Personally i think thats one of the reasons god does not physically reveal himsel to more people. For many, the shock and what it meant to their lives would be overwhelming.

I have struggled to adapt,for over 35 years now and it is still an ongoing process, reflected in much of what i write on this forum. I have done this through educating myself about god, and working hard to understand his wants/needs, and how he perceives our relationship. Not many people would be able/prepared to do this(from what i see of people today, but i might be wrong)

Thus my caveat. God is great, but if you are forced to physically face just how great, it can be an overwhelming ,and life altering experience. Thus, be careful what you ask for.

I replied Bleach and me and norwood are somewhat friends which means he knows my line of thinking on many things.

I'm simply responding to what you said to me. You said he was trying to discourage me from his religion. I don't see that he like other's here believe that we all need to find our own path. Clovis has walked down the same path I am on now & it was not for him just as his is not for me.





Somewhat??? I see how you are!

Forced is not a word I would use to describe love, no one should be forced to love OR worship another.

Again these are my thoughts.

Thank you Clovis, that really means a lot as I have come to really enjoy your posts and find I agree with many things you say. I wholeheartedly agree with you here as well. I personally saw this as reaching out for a sign and I really didn't want to see him get turned away by anything in the thread. I also overlooked the negatives he tallied up and can see what you are talking about. I guess all we can do is hope he is interested.

Keep hoping... like I have said I have been down that path like others here have & it's not for me. Why would I care to go down a path that held nothing for me? I don know know how you saw anything in my post And with that I am going back to bed.....

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear enough but I was referring to this sentence in his post which was to the OP(Professor).

Its only forced in the sense that i am forced to acknowledge the reality of god in the same way i am forced to acknowledge the reality of my motor car. I dont really have a choice in either case. This is a value free thing .

I am not forced to love or worship god. In fact i dont really worship him, just treat him with a great deal of respect, like you would any person who had absolute power over you, and live with him as i do with other members of my family.

Love cant be forced. It has to be freely given. My love for god comes from within myself, from the source of love which he provided within me. It is absolutely freely given, partly in response to the great love gpd has empowered me with, and partly grown as i have come to know and undersatnd him.In that respect it is the same as the love i feel for myself, and for my wife and parents, and so forth.
God cant force us to worship or love him, only to acknowledge his exisence.

But in a way you are correct. Once revealed, gods physical presence does "force" us to make decisions that otherwise we can avoid making. I often wonder if moses ever felt he might have had a simpler, easier life if god had not revealed himself, "forcing "moses down one particular path of destiny.Same thing, only perhaps even more vividly so, with Abraham.

Sometimes the more we run away from God the closer It holds onto us...

why do you want to be convinced? searching for yourself is the only way to find what is true to you. dont follow what someone perscribes to you search for your own reasons in your own way. spirituality isnt made for marketing, if you want it take it if you dont leave it.

I agree jelly belly but some people do not see religion in terms of spirituality at all and think of the more legalistic and organizational aspects of it only.

Oh gee, I thought the question was rhetorical, a role play if you will...

My answer was going to be: No, I can't convince you, but given half a chance I COULD annoy you.

Hi there, I think it's interesting (your thread)....It would appear as if you have fallen into the common mindset that the Bible is a christian document and that it's either christianity or nothing. However, there are many other religions outside of christianity that use the Bible (ie Mormons, JW's, Jews).

The specific thing you mention (in the bolded part of your post) is actually a common misunderstanding among many people.

For one, the Sabbath day is not Sunday, nor is it Friday. Any Christian/Islamic scholar will tell you this

Secondly, that law applies to the Jews. It does have significance to the non-Jew, but a non-Jew is not forbidden to do work on the Sabbath.

Even within the Jews, that law hardly ever resulted in the execution of someone. In order for someone to be executed in Jewish law, a number of things must happen. These are:

1. The person who committed the crime must have been seen committing the crime by at least two witnesses.
2. Each witness must have went to the person and told the person that what they were doing is a crime.
3. The criminal (after learning that his action was a crime) would have to deliberately continue to commit the crime in front of the witnesses.
4. The witnesses must report the person.
5. The criminal must have a trial.
6. For the death penalty to be given, every single judge on the Sanhedrin (all 71) would have to unanimously vote for the person's death.
7. Each witnesses' story must pass intense sscrutiny
8. The witnesses would have to be the first ones to throw the stones at the criminal (hesitation would result in the criminal be let go)

If not even one of these conditions are met, the death penalty could not be given out.

Nice reply,

I have imagined the possibility that there is a God, I find it very hard to also believe that we are here by coincidence for a small moment in time. I just make more sense on the side that the Bible, Jesus and God do no exist because my mind tells me not to blindly believe in what someone or people tell you without 100% proof.

Do not get me wrong if I was talking to a Doctor and he told me "Sorry Gordon you're broken arm will not be better for 6 weeks" I would believe him even though I do not know this is fact but I do know it has been proven. I can see and witness and feel the broken arm, I can not see, witness and feel God and Religion.

I have to go to the gym now but theres a lot of good replies I will have a proper read when I return.

I understand your sentiments regarding Jesus and the Bible. I rejected Christianity a long time ago, and for good reason. It doesnt work for me and there are too many doubts cast by the Bible and the history and the blah blah blah. Perhaps in your quest for being convinced of God you shouldn't look at religion, but rather at philosophy. I can give you a couple simple arguments and show you what I mean if you want.

It is rhetorical really I guess. Only way I can be convinced is if God appeared to me and told me everything was true.

@ churchanddestroy

Yeah that would be great m8

@Jelly

What is true to me is what I can feel, sense and see and God, Religion, Jesus and the Bible is non existent in my world, It just feels like a story, Like if we most of us died tomorrow and all was left was a Star Wars Video, Would future people believe that is the way we lived?

I don't understand why people try to convert others. Each person to their own path. It something each person must find for themselves.

It is something each person must experience themselves, but that doesn't mean that we cannot help others while they are on their path to a religious destination.

True, true but if it ain't broke don't fix it. If someone does not ask for help do not offer it.

We're not talking about fixing, we're talking about guiding. The search for religion can be arduous, offering tips and ideas is not at all harmful.

But only if it the Path they are meant to be on. If I guide someone on their Path their choice of religion is theirs. I don't encourage to take up Druidry, if they want to learn about it I am happy to help, but in the end I don't care if they follow it or not. The destination is up to them.

I believe in the Bible Jesus and God. My reason why is because I have experienced God in my life and know Him to be true. I also stopped making excuses for my fallen humanity, and everyone elses along side.

If you say that you are good, then to what standard are you living by? And if that be the standard, who put it there?

For if you claim to be good and deserving of heaven, then you claim that you meet that standard (apparently set there by God). But lets put that to trial: Have you ever lied, cussed, gossiped, cheated someone, stole, dishonored your mother and father, or put other things before God? If you have kept all these things, then perhaps you are good. If not, then you are only comparing yourself to other people, and that doesn't prove that you are actually good.

Aristotle defined good as "Hitting the Target." The greek word for sin means to "miss the mark" or target. So what is the target of human goodness, if you so claim that you and others can meet that target? Like no archer chooses his target during a competition, but can only see from a distance, so do we have no choice of what the target of human goodness is. We couldn't choose it! If we can't even agree on each other about what absolute good is, then thats evidence enough that someone else chose that target for us.

Thank you for your time.

I understand what you are saying but if you refer to the first post what religion did he mention by the process of elimination? In fact he is the one who is guiding the post and no one has tried to force anything on him as far as I can tell. Do you take offense that I and others have tried to correct his misconceptions and remove the stumbling block from before his feet?

I never understood how Christians are supposed to follow Christ, yet will take things from the OT that contradict Christ. Or pick and choose OT stuff.

Oh, and for the other posters, the Sabbath is Friday night to Saturday night. Not Sunday. Being put to death on Sunday I have never heard of. Unless thats one of those Sunday Blue laws thingie....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath
I think views differ on the subject.

Romans 14:5-6
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind.

Any chance you can share you experience with God

I have a good heart to be honest but have I lied, yeah off course, I told my Dad I was at school when I was at the park playing football. Have I cursed, yeah just 20 minutes ago I flopped a set of Jacks and lost to a set of Queens at poker! I also stole a mars bar when I was 5 from Scotmid.

I have done some good things to I guess, For 14 years I have taken good care of my dog. I am always polite to others.

I am currently at that stage in life where I have to decide what I want to do and I would like to have a spiritual side but I can't see, feel or even pretend its there because I do not understand Religion God Jesus and the Bible.

Considering the above would you think I was a bad person?

It's not like they ring a bell .


You're thinking about these things, how is that not having a spiritual side?

I don't know what your taste in reading material is. A lot of people have enjoyed Joseph Campbell. If you don't feel like reading him, there is a famous set of interviews with Bill Moyers - still running after two decades during fundraising weeks on public television in the U.S.

Speaking of public television, and especially if you wish to focus specifically on biblical religions, another production many have enjoyed is The Question of God, based on a Harvard seminar class.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/

There is a program discussion guide which is distributed for free, both at PBS' site and here:

http://www.cslewis.org/resources/QofGodGuide2004.pdf

no. but also considering the above, i don't think you are good either. and thats not me comparing myself to you, cuz you make me look like a thug. my point is that no one is good enough. That doesn't matter. Jesus was good enough and he asks us to put our trust in His righteousness, not ours.

I have experienced the mercies, patience, grace, joy, and assurance from God. I learned that I am a sinner, I needed propitiation, Jesus is the presence of God in man's life for all eternity that bridges the chasm between man and God that sin created. Learning about God made me more aware of His presence.

Right. I think Kaizen is perhaps forgetting the fact that the ancient Judeans did not attempt to to convert the neighboring tribes or even guide them on any path. Their only concern was their own path and not that of others.



lol such humor. It also confounds me why many follow the Sunday tradition of Sabbath. I feel even as Christians it should be Friday evening to Saturday evening as well. But as bleach pointed out in Romans I do not judge others over it but inside I feel it would be more proper to have Church Friday night and not Sunday morning which a slight few Christian churches do have Friday night services now at least in my city.

lol so you want to be convinced. lol

so much for atheism huh.. lol