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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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Tiggs
QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 17 2008, 02:55 AM) *
Therefore, if the universe is comprised of matter expanding (enclosed but expanding space) of a course of time, and it has been observed to be expanding at an increasing rate, then it started at one place. Therefore, the Big Bang comes into play. Before the Big Bang, there was nothing, since our universe was not yet existent. Therefore, the universe is an enclosed system.

Prove that before the Big Bang there was nothing. Science is starting to think otherwise.
SunDogDayze
QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 16 2008, 09:34 PM) *
So you are attributing the design to nature?


No, I am not attributing design to anything but a common sense process. We were and are fine tuned for our environment, not the other way around.

QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 16 2008, 09:34 PM) *
Maybe he did and it isn't anymore. Regardless, entropy makes it quite hard to stay in one stay for all eternity. This universe will die. That means that we need to pursue another state of existence, a new heaven and a new earth. This one, as you said, simply won't do. The Bible is complimentory of this attitude:

Isa 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain."

2Pe 3:13 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness "

Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."


But why would your God include entropy in his design of us or anything else if we were created in his image?
IamsSon
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 16 2008, 08:38 PM) *
Again with Entropy prove the universe is an enclosed system.

Are you saying it isn't?
Mattshark
QUOTE (IamsSon @ Jun 17 2008, 03:38 AM) *
Are you saying it isn't?

I'm saying it might not be. Either way the entropy argument holds no ground.
Bluefinger
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jun 16 2008, 09:33 PM) *
No, I am not attributing design to anything but a common sense process. We were and are fine tuned for our environment, not the other way around.
Are you sure? We have shown that the ice caps have not always been there, by observing old maps. It would seem that our enviroment has changed significantly over the earth's history and mankind has survived. It would seem to be the rule that the condition that earth is in is fine tuned for us. For example: If there was too much oxygen in the atmosphere, earth would be too flammable to support life. If there was too little oxygen, life would not be possible. If there were more than 24 hours in a day, the weather and climate would not support life as we know it today. If were less that 24 hours, the earth would spin too fast and cause disasterous storms. There are many constants that we depend on. They don't depend on us. So I will have to beg the differ. The enviroment was fine tuned for us. Either way, you still admit that there is a design in us. Let us work off this premise.

1. Everything that was designed has a designer.

2. The human DNA has a design.

3. The human DNA has a designer.


QUOTE
But why would your God include entropy in his design of us or anything else if we were created in his image?


I don't know. I don't think God designed life to die. I think mankind chose it when he took on a sinful state of existence. I can't explain any of this. I just believe it. I believe it based on the desire for justice, order, peace, and happiness. If humanity was not meant to continue on forever, then I think such issues wouldn't matter. Then, entropy takes over and makes everything pointless. Either life has a reason, or it doesn't. We can't justify it to ourselves. Purpose isn't self-delegated, will is.
Mattshark
QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 17 2008, 03:58 AM) *
Are you sure? We have shown that the ice caps have not always been there, by observing old maps. It would seem that our enviroment has changed significantly over the earth's history and mankind has survived. It would seem to be the rule that the condition that earth is in is fine tuned for us. For example: If there was too much oxygen in the atmosphere, earth would be too flammable to support life. If there was too little oxygen, life would not be possible. If there were more than 24 hours in a day, the weather and climate would not support life as we know it today. If were less that 24 hours, the earth would spin too fast and cause disasterous storms. There are many constants that we depend on. They don't depend on us. So I will have to beg the differ. The enviroment was fine tuned for us. Either way, you still admit that there is a design in us. Let us work off this premise.

1. Everything that was designed has a designer.

2. The human DNA has a design.

3. The human DNA has a designer.
Ice caps have been there since we evolved.
Really deserts where fine tuned to us? The Antarctic was fine tuned to us? How about volcanoes? What about deep sea vents? Deep sea brine lakes? They all seem very fine tuned to us don't they? Just because there is balance it does not infer creation or intelligent design. You have a lot of bad science there and conjecture there and work from end to start which is a distorted and incorrect way to correlate.
That is poor premise to work on, the is no evidence of a designer so any idea using that is pure conjecture.
Mattshark
QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 17 2008, 03:58 AM) *
I don't know. I don't think God designed life to die. I think mankind chose it when he took on a sinful state of existence. I can't explain any of this. I just believe it. I believe it based on the desire for justice, order, peace, and happiness. If humanity was not meant to continue on forever, then I think such issues wouldn't matter. Then, entropy takes over and makes everything pointless. Either life has a reason, or it doesn't. We can't justify it to ourselves. Purpose isn't self-delegated, will is.



You are still grossly misinterpreting and using them term entropy.
danielost
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jun 16 2008, 09:33 PM) *
No, I am not attributing design to anything but a common sense process. We were and are fine tuned for our environment, not the other way around.



But why would your God include entropy in his design of us or anything else if we were created in his image?



Yes, says so in genesis. Let us drive man out of the garden lest he also eat of the tree of life and become immortal in his sin.
Bluefinger
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 16 2008, 09:01 PM) *
Can you prove it does not interact with any other universes (especially as it is expanding at an increasing rate).


Stating facts is a matter of truth, being convinced is a matter of will.

I cannot prove that this universe does not interact with others simply because I have not seen other universes. In order to know there is another universe, you have to be able to distinguish between the two (or more). If you can't, then we have no reason to believe that there are multiple universes. The Elephant Parable fails when tested against itself.

However, God is distinguishable. He is invisible, which is contradictory to our universe of matter. He is timeless, which is contradictory to our universe comprised of time. And He is omnicient, which in contradictory to our universe of space. That means, before our universe was, YHWH (I AM; the LORD) was. Our universe has time, so outside of it is timelessness. Our universe has space, so outside of it is omnicience. Our universe has matter, so outside of it is invisible. This all fits the description of God in the Bible. You can't see Him, He can't die, and He is everywhere at once. This is a far better explanation than multiple universes. And this information was given far before we learned that our universe was finite.
Bluefinger
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 16 2008, 10:02 PM) *
You are still grossly misinterpreting and using them term entropy.


Right, I understand that entropy has much to do with heat (energy.) My point was to show that we die just like the universe. It was a way to touch base with those familiar with the Law of Entropy. And since the universe will die, we will die too. In a very relative way, we are affected by the universe's subjectivity to the second law of thermodynamics.
SunDogDayze
QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 16 2008, 10:58 PM) *
Are you sure? We have shown that the ice caps have not always been there, by observing old maps. It would seem that our enviroment has changed significantly over the earth's history and mankind has survived. It would seem to be the rule that the condition that earth is in is fine tuned for us. For example: If there was too much oxygen in the atmosphere, earth would be too flammable to support life. If there was too little oxygen, life would not be possible. If there were more than 24 hours in a day, the weather and climate would not support life as we know it today. If were less that 24 hours, the earth would spin too fast and cause disasterous storms. There are many constants that we depend on. They don't depend on us. So I will have to beg the differ. The enviroment was fine tuned for us. Either way, you still admit that there is a design in us. Let us work off this premise.

1. Everything that was designed has a designer.

2. The human DNA has a design.

3. The human DNA has a designer.


Okay let me touch on the bold sentence real quick. The fact that these contants you talk about DO NOT depend on us is a contradiction to the idea that this environment was made for us. The fact that we depend on IT argues for the idea that the environment was created (by that same natural process I was talking about earlier) and then life was fine tuned to survive in it's conditions. You are proving the opposing point here.

The environment changes, and all life has to adapt, including humans. That alone is enough to tell me that the environment was not created to suit a particular form of life, but because of something that science has yet to try and answer, life did begin, and has changed, evolved, adapted, and some have died out, because of changes to that environment.

Your premise that you numbered out also has one ginormous flaw to it. The first sentence claims that all designs have a designer. This is not true. That is an assumption. All designers' designs have a designer. But not everything is a design. For you to prove that life was a design, you would have to prove that it had a designer, which you can not, so your premise is basically nothing but a couple assumptions, just to kick off the first sentence.

QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 16 2008, 10:58 PM) *
I don't know. I don't think God designed life to die. I think mankind chose it when he took on a sinful state of existence. I can't explain any of this. I just believe it. I believe it based on the desire for justice, order, peace, and happiness. If humanity was not meant to continue on forever, then I think such issues wouldn't matter. Then, entropy takes over and makes everything pointless. Either life has a reason, or it doesn't. We can't justify it to ourselves. Purpose isn't self-delegated, will is.


I really do appreciate the "I don't know." It's rare to see that answer from anyone, on either side of the argument. original.gif

But, see, the flaw here is that if God knows all before it happens, and there is a master plan, then regardless of if you want to say mankind chose it by being sinful, God designed life to die. It's a simple cause and effect. If God is able to know everything, and designs life knowing the outcome already, then there was no free will for the design.
Mattshark
QUOTE (Bluefinger @ Jun 17 2008, 04:18 AM) *
Right, I understand that entropy has much to do with heat (energy.) My point was to show that we die just like the universe. It was a way to touch base with those familiar with the Law of Entropy. And since the universe will die, we will die too. In a very relative way, we are affected by the universe's subjectivity to the second law of thermodynamics.

There is no evidence that the universe will die at all, it could well expand for ever as it is in fact expanding exponentially at the moment, so it is conjecture to suggest this will stop or that is will not come into equilibrium.
SunDogDayze
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 16 2008, 11:09 PM) *
Yes, says so in genesis. Let us drive man out of the garden lest he also eat of the tree of life and become immortal in his sin.


Sorry, double post, but you guys are posting faster than I can tonight. original.gif

Danielost...what?

There are so many things wrong with that reply that I don't know where to start.

First of all, you ought to know by now that "because the Bible says so" will not get you very far when you are debating with real evidence and logical thinking.

Second of all, what does this prove? In what context does this have anything to do with the subject matter?

I know the verse, and I understand that it can be interpreted to mean that God (or several of them?) wanted to drive Adam and Eve from Eden so that they would not become immortal. How does this tie in to our environment (universe, galaxy, and planet) being designed specifically for humans?
danielost
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jun 16 2008, 10:33 PM) *
Sorry, double post, but you guys are posting faster than I can tonight. original.gif

Danielost...what?

There are so many things wrong with that reply that I don't know where to start.

First of all, you ought to know by now that "because the Bible says so" will not get you very far when you are debating with real evidence and logical thinking.

Second of all, what does this prove? In what context does this have anything to do with the subject matter?

I know the verse, and I understand that it can be interpreted to mean that God (or several of them?) wanted to drive Adam and Eve from Eden so that they would not become immortal. How does this tie in to our environment (universe, galaxy, and planet) being designed specifically for humans?



The question had to do with God and entropy. I answered with Genesis, which states that God introduced death(entropy) into life after the fall of Adam and Eve.
Mattshark
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 17 2008, 04:37 AM) *
The question had to do with God and entropy. I answered with Genesis, which states that God introduced death(entropy) into life after the fall of Adam and Eve.

You can not use the bible to answer a scientific question. Also death (which is not the same as entropy, death is very much not entropy) was around before humans evolved.
danielost
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 16 2008, 10:39 PM) *
You can not use the bible to answer a scientific question. Also death (which is not the same as entropy, death is very much not entropy) was around before humans evolved.



Again I wasn't answer a scientific question. The question one more time was would God introduce entropy. The answer is yes.
Mattshark
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 17 2008, 04:43 AM) *
Again I wasn't answer a scientific question. The question one more time was would God introduce entropy. The answer is yes.

But entropy was there before humans though so genesis is not valid in this case.
danielost
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 16 2008, 10:53 PM) *
But entropy was there before humans though so genesis is not valid in this case.



I was only answering the person's question about God and entropy.
Shush_rules
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Jun 17 2008, 11:25 AM) *
Oh sorry. Misinformed argument there. Second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. How many organisms are closed systems? That would be 0? Oh look yes it would.
Can you prove the universe is a closed system? No you can't.
Maybe you need to go back and figure out what you are debating before making an ill informed argument.
Best evidence against ID btw, the is absolutely 0, nothing, zip, nada evidence supporting it. It is pseudo-science.


You know if u review the evidence supporting Darwin's theory of evolution...there's about as much evidence for that as there is for ID
Agent. Mulder
QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 05:36 AM) *
You know if u review the evidence supporting Darwin's theory of evolution...there's about as much evidence for that as there is for ID


uhhh.....i think that may Not be true.
theres not really any 'evidence' towards ID exactly. more so, just theories and ideas

*edit* and from what ive seen, the intelligent design isnt that Intelligent
Shush_rules
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jun 18 2008, 03:41 PM) *
uhhh.....i think that may Not be true.
theres not really any 'evidence' towards ID exactly. more so, just theories and ideas

*edit* and from what ive seen, the intelligent design isnt that Intelligent

Well i mean not super intelligent, but the fact that we're typing on computers and breathing is pretty amazing.
Theres not really any 'evidence' towards Darwinism either, more so, just theories and ideas
Cimber
QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 01:50 AM) *
Well i mean not super intelligent, but the fact that we're typing on computers and breathing is pretty amazing.
Theres not really any 'evidence' towards Darwinism either, more so, just theories and ideas


No evidence for Darwinism? If there wasn't any evidence for the ideas proposed for Darwin, we wouldn't have a field of Biology.

Scientific theories (which is what we are talking about when dealing with Darwinism) are not the same as 'theories' (just unsubstantiated ideas that hold no water) in terms of creationism.

Scientific theories explain why something happens. They are more powerful than facts, even. They are not just some 'idea' that scientists think of when they wake up in the morning. Evolution survived the birth of genetics, which could have ruined evolutionary theory. Genetics, if nothing else, provides insurmountable proof towards Evolution, not to mention it is a fact that the theory of evolution (natural selection, etc) occurs.
theSOURCE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't ID also imply a work in progress?

Being a designer and builder of electronic sound modules I'm constantly finding new and better ways to improve my designs. No matter how proud I am of one of my circuits, if it lacks a specific function then I have to either graft on new circuitry or redesign it from scratch.

This is where I see a problem with ID. If the universe was the work of some grand designer, then the builder should have incorporated some self modifying system to keep everything running smoothly.

However, that is not the case. Everything eventually breaks down. Why would the grand designer resort to planned obsolescence? Was he/she/it trying to make a buck off of someone or simply pulling a cruel joke on us humans?

And evolution doesn't answer the question about a built in self modifying system either. To use my circuit analogy, evolution works much the same way as an electronic circuit deals with variations in input voltages. If a linear VCO is fed a non linear voltage then the output frequency will be non linear as well. What this means is that when the environment changes for a lifeform, then the lifeform will adapt to the change.

The big but is, if you apply too high a voltage to the VCO then you'll burn it out. The same with the lifeform. Make the environmental change too high and it goes extinct.

Of course, I could always incorporate circuitry that would protect my VCO design from excessive voltages.

So why didn't the grand designer do the same for all life? Make the temperature too cold or hot, it dies. Introduce toxins into the atmosphere, it dies. On and on.

And getting back to the idea of a work in progress, there are no signs that this is the case. The universe is simply plodding along on it's merry way. Stars are running out of fuel and dying. Entire galaxies are colliding into one another. There are no new modifications being made to the system.

We here are just one massive asteroid impact or super volcano eruption away from extinction with no real way of preventing such a catastrophe. Would you buy such a shoddy product from such a careless designer?

If we are the result of intelligent design, then the designer either failed every class or had one helluva cruel sense of humor.







Mattshark
QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 06:36 AM) *
You know if u review the evidence supporting Darwin's theory of evolution...there's about as much evidence for that as there is for ID

That is complete load of crap I am afraid.
-max-
Haha Loved it. Though his presentation came across as a little ammature dont you think?
Shush_rules
QUOTE (Cimber @ Jun 18 2008, 05:04 PM) *
No evidence for Darwinism? If there wasn't any evidence for the ideas proposed for Darwin, we wouldn't have a field of Biology.

Scientific theories (which is what we are talking about when dealing with Darwinism) are not the same as 'theories' (just unsubstantiated ideas that hold no water) in terms of creationism.

Scientific theories explain why something happens. They are more powerful than facts, even. They are not just some 'idea' that scientists think of when they wake up in the morning. Evolution survived the birth of genetics, which could have ruined evolutionary theory. Genetics, if nothing else, provides insurmountable proof towards Evolution, not to mention it is a fact that the theory of evolution (natural selection, etc) occurs.


Oh ok, so there's actual evidence to back up natural selection and evolution yeah? not just scientific theories? Can you throw me some examples of the insurmountable proof that your talking about
SunDogDayze
QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 06:40 AM) *
Oh ok, so there's actual evidence to back up natural selection and evolution yeah? not just scientific theories? Can you throw me some examples of the insurmountable proof that your talking about


Oh wow.

Cimber? You want this one? Or should I take it?
Shush_rules
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jun 18 2008, 10:18 PM) *
Oh wow.

Cimber? You want this one? Or should I take it?


*Yawn*

No need to have a full song and dance routine.

You want to post something go ahead, i'm merely asking, no need to go on about it
Copasetic
QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 08:22 AM) *
*Yawn*

No need to have a full song and dance routine.

You want to post something go ahead, i'm merely asking, no need to go on about it



Surely.

This was a post I made on phylogenetics, which is one small aspect of science that supports the modern synthesis (by the way you may want to clarify what "Darwinism" is because I don't know a biologist alive today who follows all of Darwin's ideas)

QUOTE (Copasetic @ May 15 2008, 06:23 PM) *
No worries, my fault in the assumption. Let's digress from eye evolution for a moment and speak of phylogenetics, as it is key to understandng evolution and how we derive these "chains" as you have called them. Let's first explain some basics of phylogenetics then maybe you will see how this is evidence, these "chains"

Phylogenetics is the study of infered relationships among organisms, particularly the evolutionary relationships and history of specific lineages. That is to say the study of Darwin's "common descent". Phylogenetics seeks to identify the historical communities of descent through shared features, which well call nested sets. The relationships can be described in two basic ways: Branching (cladogenesis) and Linear (anagensis). We can choose any number of visual representations to display these relationships; trees, circles etc, it makes no difference. The information represented is the same in both examples below.
linked-image



So the question then becomes, where and how do we arrive at these relationships?

The answer is in the math. If we study organisms and characterize their variation we can array this in a matrix. We can then analyze many matrices and find these nested sets that pertain to the groups. Today, we use computer programs that use clustering algorithms. There is mathematical proofs such sets arise, but let's skip the math for now while we cover basics (if you wish to come back to it at a later time let me know).

These shared features can look similar because of chance, convergences or common histories (homologies). We can see a simple example of homologies in limb bones.
linked-image

So what kind of evidence to support homologous structures? We have lots of genetic evidence, in the form of genes, ultraconserved non-coding regions etc. We can construct trees based up phenotypical traits and test them against the genes that code for these traits. Do we know though this is the absolutely 100% correct tree? No, like all science we can only say this is the tree that best represents the data.

We can talk of groups in 3 basic ways. The first is a monophyletic group. That being all the descendants of a common ancestor. Seen in this example:
linked-image

The next type of grouping is paraphyly this includes some, but not all descendants of a common ancestor. In this case (for the example below) its saying, "Dinosaurs but not birds"
linked-image

Finally we have polyphyly, which is distantly related groups lumped together.
linked-image

(Bare with me there is some points in all this)

So what kind of errors can we make interpretation of group relations? Or chains as you called them.
We see with paraphyletic relationships that we exclude some members of the lineage. In the case of polyphyletic relationships we make the mistake of of including unrelated organisms. Easy to do with convergent features such as the eye.

So how do we minimize error? By sampling an extremely high number of attributes and the associated variations.

So, as a few people here are fond of claiming "Evolution is not testable" or "Evolution is belief and not science". If evolution is a science, in particular the science of phylogenetics, then it should not only be testable, but it should help us ask questions and make predictions.

What kind of questions can we ask with phylogenies? Things like; What is the evolutionary origin of a particular group, trait, feature, structure? What adaptations accompany changes of life history or habitat? Are particular attributes unique to the specimen or are they characterized by a broader group?

In formulating these questions we can form hypothesis that we can then test against fossil, genetic, protein etc data.
Lets look at an example with mammals, everyones favorite wink2.gif .

We can ask the question are mammals a monophyletic group?

We can then build a tree based on the attributes of mammals. Using matrices we can derive some commonalities which we have deemed above, nested sets. These we can order on our tree as per their value in the matrices and we come up with something like this:
linked-image

One would expect if what you and others who argue against the many sciences involved in evolution are true ("chains of comparisons prove"that simple evolved to complex is a leap of faith, as you said), then we ought to find violations to the nested hierarchies inherent in the system. Meaning, we should find placental mammals which lack ear bones on the skull, or monotremes with pouches. If was a leap of faith made and we simply assume all these things, then why is this what data supports? There should be evidence to the contrary.

We then can use common descent as a null hypothesis for similarity in the progression of "simple to complex" (yuck, that is gross misrepresentation to life on earth but I am trying to keep this simple). When we see similar attributes, we can then assume they are the same, that is they represent the same basis for testing. Homology then becomes our null hypothesis we are testing.

Now lets come full circle, you said:
"* You showed how the eyes of the simpler creatures are simpler in construction,
* and more complex in more complicated creatures.

You show that there is a "chain" -- simpler lead on to more complex."

Then you claimed the leap is made when we say it evolved. As you can hopefully see now, there has been no leap of faith, nor untestable/unfalsifiable science being done. All we have done is to construct a tree based on the shared attributes of specific animals and groups of animals, albeit it is much more complex than the simple illustrations I have highlighted above. What is certainly interesting, as I noted in my original post, is not only do we have structural evidence to support our evolutionary relationships, but genetics and molecular (cellular) as well.

If you are at all confused by this, please respond so that we may resolve any complications you see with it.

~Regards



My apologies for simply reposting but you asked for some evidence for it (NS and evolution) and so I figured this would suffice.
Copasetic
QUOTE (Cimber @ Jun 18 2008, 03:04 AM) *
Scientific theories (which is what we are talking about when dealing with Darwinism) are not the same as 'theories' (just unsubstantiated ideas that hold no water) in terms of creationism.

Scientific theories explain why something happens. They are more powerful than facts, even. They are not just some 'idea' that scientists think of when they wake up in the morning. Evolution survived the birth of genetics, which could have ruined evolutionary theory. Genetics, if nothing else, provides insurmountable proof towards Evolution, not to mention it is a fact that the theory of evolution (natural selection, etc) occurs.



I would add that to your signature Cimber, Seems since I have been here you have explained that more times than worth counting. Would probably need some type of algorithm to quantify it grin2.gif
Shush_rules
Well, i just got told what time it was, thank you Copasetic, i'm gonna go read some books now lol
SunDogDayze
QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 08:22 AM) *
*Yawn*

No need to have a full song and dance routine.

You want to post something go ahead, i'm merely asking, no need to go on about it




QUOTE (Shush_rules @ Jun 18 2008, 09:40 AM) *
Well, i just got told what time it was, thank you Copasetic, i'm gonna go read some books now lol



I do apologize. I didn't mean to come across as rude. Cimber, Copasetic, me, and few others have explained the whole thing to people who refuse to listen so many times, that I mistakenly assumed that this was going to be the same thing. It's rare that we have someone who is willing to actually consider what we say and isn't asking for evidence as an argumentative point. You know what they say about assuming! original.gif
Shush_rules
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jun 19 2008, 02:13 AM) *
I do apologize. I didn't mean to come across as rude. Cimber, Copasetic, me, and few others have explained the whole thing to people who refuse to listen so many times, that I mistakenly assumed that this was going to be the same thing. It's rare that we have someone who is willing to actually consider what we say and isn't asking for evidence as an argumentative point. You know what they say about assuming! original.gif


Its all good man, i'm just reading this book about ID and i was just wondering what you guys were using for evidence, cheers
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 15 2008, 01:03 PM) *
The perfect environment went away with the garden of eden.

Well gee, never found where that is located, did we? And considering we've photographed nearly the entire surface of Earth from satellites I'm willing to bed Eden is just another religious fairy-tale. If we haven't found it by now, it's probably not in existence. What, did God just destroy it after we left? How cruel to kill all of those animals and plants because we ate a stupid apple.


P.s. Wow, I totally just jumped into this argument, sorry!


It's good to see people who can argue from both sides, Shush. But, don't assume we don't know what we're talking about ;]
Because most of us do, and we do often get tired of having to explain the same principles over and over to those who are so indoctrinated they choose to not understand. It's really quite irritating. Evolution is far more than theory and hypothesis.
danielost
I have a question for you. I say that God created the animals. You say not because evolution for one reason or another would have made all four legged animals with the same basic design. How come God couldn't have designed these same animals with the same basic design for simplistic case.



If every human as been stated here is a evolutinary change from the last ones how come we look the same today as they did 2000 years ago.



I don't need a big lecture on what evolution is. I need a simple answer to my questions.


Evolution is what is used to fill in when an animal goes extinct.


Fluffybunny
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 29 2008, 06:54 PM) *
I don't need a big lecture on what evolution is. I need a simple answer to my questions.

Part of the problem is that you are looking for a simple answer to questions that doesnt have a simple answer.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 29 2008, 06:54 PM) *
I have a question for you. I say that God created the animals. You say not because evolution for one reason or another would have made all four legged animals with the same basic design. How come God couldn't have designed these same animals with the same basic design for simplistic case.



If every human as been stated here is a evolutinary change from the last ones how come we look the same today as they did 2000 years ago.



I don't need a big lecture on what evolution is. I need a simple answer to my questions.


Evolution is what is used to fill in when an animal goes extinct.

We don't look the same. There are subtle changes in physiology such as ear shape and size, number of teeth, skin pigmentation, eye size, genetic disorders, and the like. We may look the same overall, but there ARE small changes due to our increase in technology altering the environment we live in. The reason we don't see a big change is because evolution isn't big changes; it's many small changes over millions of years, so of course we aren't going to see large, obvious changes in our own species even.
danielost
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 29 2008, 09:00 PM) *
We don't look the same. There are subtle changes in physiology such as ear shape and size, number of teeth, skin pigmentation, eye size, genetic disorders, and the like. We may look the same overall, but there ARE small changes due to our increase in technology altering the environment we live in. The reason we don't see a big change is because evolution isn't big changes; it's many small changes over millions of years, so of course we aren't going to see large, obvious changes in our own species even.



We are the same basic design as earlier humans. The size of teeth are decreasing because we are not using them as much because of cooking. People are much taller today because of the food not genitics.


The example I was using was a finch in an enclosed eco system died off. There were two other types of finches on the same island but they eat a different type of food. Your evolutionists thought it would take 100 years for the other two finches to take advantage. It took 7 years.


As I have said humans do not change to their environment. They change the environment. As for those humans who live in certain areas. Their adpations to the area only gives them at most a 6 week advantage. 6 weeks after moving to a new environment you become acclaimented to that area.
qucker if your coming from a similar environment. The only real eximption to this is the people who live at the top of the andies. They have a slightly greater lung capacity.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 29 2008, 07:09 PM) *
We are the same basic design as earlier humans. The size of teeth are decreasing because we are not using them as much because of cooking. People are much taller today because of the food not genitics.


The example I was using was a finch in an enclosed eco system died off. There were two other types of finches on the same island but they eat a different type of food. Your evolutionists thought it would take 100 years for the other two finches to take advantage. It took 7 years.


As I have said humans do not change to their environment. They change the environment. As for those humans who live in certain areas. Their adpations to the area only gives them at most a 6 week advantage. 6 weeks after moving to a new environment you become acclaimented to that area.
qucker if your coming from a similar environment. The only real eximption to this is the people who live at the top of the andies. They have a slightly greater lung capacity.

And all of those are proof of evolution! Good for you Daniel! See? You're better at this than you thought! Those are all genetically altered traits (yes, even height, which is determined genetically) which suit us better to our environments.
Sparky777
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 30 2008, 02:10 PM) *
And all of those are proof of evolution! Good for you Daniel! See? You're better at this than you thought!


that was a bit pratronising....
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (Sparky777 @ Jun 29 2008, 07:25 PM) *
that was a bit pratronising....

Well, he just contradicted his entire argument, so I'd have to say he deserved it.... his proof against evolution IS evolution. I'd rather be patronizing than scathingly cynical.
Sparky777
id rather youd say nothing atal if u cant be nice about it.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (Sparky777 @ Jun 29 2008, 07:34 PM) *
id rather youd say nothing atal if u cant be nice about it.

Well, I was nice about it, even if it was playfully patronizing. I certainly didn't mean it as an insult to Daniel's intelligence.
danielost
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 29 2008, 09:10 PM) *
And all of those are proof of evolution! Good for you Daniel! See? You're better at this than you thought! Those are all genetically altered traits (yes, even height, which is determined genetically) which suit us better to our environments.



You are absolutly correct. Remember you said it. Evolution takes place in 6 weeks with the same person.


By the way the japanese went from 5'4 to over 6' in one generation.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 29 2008, 07:43 PM) *
You are absolutly correct. Remember you said it. Evolution takes place in 6 weeks with the same person.

No, no, dear. Evolution occurs genetically. Behavior is not genetic, therefore is not evolution.

Well, I shouldn't say that. Behavior like this is not evolutionary, but some kinds of behavior are. Like animals teaching their cubs to hunt and chimps using tools and the like. Adjusting to one's environment like that is not evolution.
danielost
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 29 2008, 09:45 PM) *
No, no, dear. Evolution occurs genetically. Behavior is not genetic, therefore is not evolution.




If you recall I said the only advantage one group had over another was 6 weeks. Ie it takes 6 weeks for you to be able to move to the outback and start running around like the natives who have been there for ever. Next time don't twist my words.


Yes I know the finch was evolution. But it take place a lot faster than the so called experts thought it would.


What if the experts are that far off on all evolutionary traits.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 29 2008, 07:48 PM) *
If you recall I said the only advantage one group had over another was 6 weeks. Ie it takes 6 weeks for you to be able to move to the outback and start running around like the natives who have been there for ever. Next time don't twist my words.


Yes I know the finch was evolution. But it take place a lot faster than the so called experts thought it would.


What if the experts are that far off on all evolutionary traits.

Oh? Perhaps I misread what you posted Daniel. I apologize. But, even if you move to the outback and live like an Australian native, you aren't genetically identical to those people. Aboriginees have very little body hair; dark, tough skin; short, curly hair; etc. You can't get those by moving to the outback, which is the point. GENETIC traits that help an organism survive in its environment are evolutionary traits. And where exactly did you come up with the 6 weeks? Care to send a peer reviewed study with that claim? Otherwise I'm inclined to think you're just pulling numbers from thin air.

And there's plenty to say that evolution happens a lot longer than that as well. If it really happened that fast we'd see a lot more change. Plus, you cannot say that a certain event's time span can be based off of the extremes in cases. It may have taken 7 years for this finch, and millions of years for fish to grow appendages that would later become legs.
danielost
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 29 2008, 09:57 PM) *
Oh? Perhaps I misread what you posted Daniel. I apologize. But, even if you move to the outback and live like an Australian native, you aren't genetically identical to those people. Aboriginees have very little body hair; dark, tough skin; short, curly hair; etc. You can't get those by moving to the outback, which is the point. GENETIC traits that help an organism survive in its environment are evolutionary traits. And where exactly did you come up with the 6 weeks? Care to send a peer reviewed study with that claim? Otherwise I'm inclined to think you're just pulling numbers from thin air.

And there's plenty to say that evolution happens a lot longer than that as well. If it really happened that fast we'd see a lot more change. Plus, you cannot say that a certain event's time span can be based off of the extremes in cases. It may have taken 7 years for this finch, and millions of years for fish to grow appendages that would later become legs.



1 the Army

2 History channel when they were trying to prove your point. This one lady visited the outback and the arctic circle, alaska. She actually ended up swimming the 16 miles between the usa and ussr.
danielost
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Jun 29 2008, 09:57 PM) *
Oh? Perhaps I misread what you posted Daniel. I apologize. But, even if you move to the outback and live like an Australian native, you aren't genetically identical to those people. Aboriginees have very little body hair; dark, tough skin; short, curly hair; etc. You can't get those by moving to the outback, which is the point. GENETIC traits that help an organism survive in its environment are evolutionary traits. And where exactly did you come up with the 6 weeks? Care to send a peer reviewed study with that claim? Otherwise I'm inclined to think you're just pulling numbers from thin air.

And there's plenty to say that evolution happens a lot longer than that as well. If it really happened that fast we'd see a lot more change. Plus, you cannot say that a certain event's time span can be based off of the extremes in cases. It may have taken 7 years for this finch, and millions of years for fish to grow appendages that would later become legs.



If it took fish millions of years to grow legs. Then why do fish fins have the same 5 basic bones that you have in your fingers.
Mattshark
QUOTE (danielost @ Jun 30 2008, 04:05 AM) *
If it took fish millions of years to grow legs. Then why do fish fins have the same 5 basic bones that you have in your fingers.

Because it is a gradual process, hence we have transitional forms. The fact that we have the same basic bone structure is merely an indication of shared heritage.
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