We have been asked and it has been implyed that man has created God. So now let's debate as to why man feels that he must destroy God.

Good question Daniel......I don't think of it as 'destroying God" just some of humanity beginning to realise that the concept, as it is usually defined, is illogical. And that we shouldn't base our morality/lives/discrimination on something that is a falsehood. Of course people can believe if they want - I just don't think it should have public influence.

The more we examine the world, many of the mysteries for mysteries sake that we invoked a God to make sense of, appear to have other causes. So he is generally receding into something like the 'Prime Mover' (lazy git that he is)joke joke.

'Cause reality is more beauitful then any lie?

Not as if god was doing a stand up job either... God is a failure. Both in morality and in the truth.

Talking about the idea of god as well... Can't destroy what doesn't exist.

Haven't you figuared it out yet. Everything you do, even the secret stuff affects everything we do in public.

I do actually hold to the idea I have said before that as a social species your big ideas influence minutiae of my life. So I suppose,yes, let the battle begin.........

First things first though, I would like God outta the public sphere as much as possible. Yep Gay marriages, full steam ahead!

On the other hand, people will never agree on everything, and part of running a balanced/fair society is working out what things do influence public life and affect others and giving latitude with the other things. Tolerance.

Do we mean the same things when we talk about the 'public sphere'? What does secret stuff have to do with anything?

I say it is because God has actual rules that people don't want to obey. They do not want to be what they think is under control of a higher power or influence. They think they won't have any fun if they turn to Him and they think it will mean the end of all the things they enjoy. They don't understand that the things God tells them they should observe are good for them. If we had actually believed and listened to God from the start, we would have no famine, plague, disease, discourse, hatred, war, etc.... BUt man thinks he knows what is best for him and he does what seems right in his eyes. If we destroy God, we live as we want, doing what seems best to us. There is no thing to answer to. If we decide we want to steal...we do it, after all, it's a big store, no one will miss just one item,. right? ( if 10% of shoppers do that, how much does that add up to?) If we listen to God, we can't have any kind of sex we want to...leading up to unwanted pregnancies, std's. baby mommas, child support, neglect, abuse...etc... (NEVER saying that that always happens..I know there are a lot of good single moms out there, but why shouldn't you enjoy a two parent loving home?That is what you always dreamed of as a young girl, right? A wonderful husband who loves you and the kids. ) I could go on forever, but I won't. I say it is because we don't want to be held accountable to anyone or anything.

Because God is like the security blanket or the imaginary friend some of us had as a child. We can't really grow up and become adults while we still cling to it. That's not to say that the abstract concept of God should be destroyed, but our preconceived notions about it should.

exactly ... we're growing up . some with open arms and some kicking and screaming , but we are.

I can only speak for myself...the more I try to prove God exsist, the more evident it is that God doesn't...
It's not that I'm trying to destory my belief in God, I actually do want to believe there is a God and creator, but the more I try to confirm this for myself the more this world's version of God becomes unbelievable for me...
The God and creator in the bible actually sounds very much like the description of Satan, which is just another discription of mankind...Our Gods are very human in most aspects...emotional, egotisical, self absorbed, cruel and then compassionate and loving (wishy-washy) very human...which is it 'are we in God's image or is God in our image? Both images are the same...
For every character trait that the bible describes as being un-godly, when you stop to think about it, it actually describes God'
I really would like my childhood blankie'
but part of growing is to overcome fear...God and religion are fear based

"The beginning of wisdom...recognition that we have a fear of God'
Now overcome it...

I won't go as far as to say or to close all doors to the possibility that we do have a creator, but I can't make myself believe through religion anymore

Wrong. I still feel accountable for everything I do. But not to some invisible deity who has done nothing to show me he even exists. I feel accountable to myself, my daughter, (yep, unwed pregnancy, and I wouldn't have had it any other way now) and those around me who are affected by my actions.

It's ridiculous to think that just because you take the notion of a vengeful god out of the picture, that people will just do whatever they want. The values we are taught and the values we were born with that are instinctual do not go away because one realizes they don't have to own up to a higher power. People don't leave their church so they can start going to orgies and murdering other people.

It's way past insulting to insinuate that anyone who doesn't live their life with the fear that one wrong step will land you in hell are not morally responsible. I don't want to live my life based on what some unseen being expects of me, I know what I expect of myself and that's all I need.

exactly Sun, we are accountable to ourselves, and therefore should be taught to be a child will not self correct if its punished or in fear of punishment and reward creates self absorbed indiuviduals, self interest is often the motivation for doing things..... it serves the whole far better to use forgivness compassion and empathy to guide..... and the point is to teach them to self correct ultimately..........when we teach that one way is the only way the only truth the door has been closed for critique or review let alone to change what needs to be changed..one doesn't need a punishment reward system actaully one would veer away for this as its not effective for self correcting....A true change is one that is genuine and done because its the only thing to do. because that is who we are and our choices benefit the most ............

I would suggest Humanity does not have to 'destroy' God, simply let go of the concept of being cossetted and so special that we occupy a unique place in the cosmos. We need to, as a species, grow up and realise that our destiny [again, as a species] is in our own hands, not in the hands of a maybe-mythical 'big guy in the sky'.

Unfortunately, our sense of self - self-preservation, self-importance, self-serving - often gets in the way of our sense of species. Self is important as it provides the drive to achieve beyond that which nature has seemingly set for us as a biological organism, but it does impede us also.

Yep. I think it means more when I do something that I think is "good" because I want to, not because I'm scared not to.

The big problem I have with this is that Christ said to have the faith of a child in parent.

If we are made in God's image. Wouldn't it by fault mean that God also is made in our image.

Indeed that is important .....I think I have read many times that god is not concerned with how good one is or the good they do in their lives only that they worship and obey the bible.......IMO . it gives little incentive or desire to be a good person....this is why i say god would be ineffective for me as a tool for guiding anyone..let alone my kids....

Hi
I would imagine for the same reason man created God, man now wishes top destroy that which he himself created as it no longer serves a useful purpose.
We have begun to outgrow it's usefulness.

I don't think that humankind wishes to destroy god, its just that we don't need him anymore. We created him for our own sanity, and now that science is answering the questions that 'god' had originally provided answers for, we are no longer in need of him.

hey honey long time no see...(((HUGS)) let me j ust say exactly what we have created no longer is serving us....its time to move on....

I think that more people are realizing how silly the idea is and putting it behind them rather than trying to destroy "god."

agreed. now that we have grown over the years, and learned much, we no longer need a god to blame something on. like the weather for example. because we know why it changes. our intellect has grown, and explained what we couldnt before, and thus why we came up with a god in the first place.
but as yahveh said, i dont think were trying to destroy it, as much as leave it alone and not bother with it.

Or, that your going to get a reward for being good. Which I have stated that if your doing good to get into heaven your doing it for the wrong reason.

I don't think no one destoryed the idea of God perhaps many people do not feel the need for God/s. Some people have moved past the idea of him is all.

That doesn't apply to me either. And it's the same concept so I don't think we are on different pages.

I do things that I think are good because I have learned in the past that by doing so, the people I affect are happier and the outcome is beneficial to more people. Therefore, I try to repeatedly do things that bring about these results. It has nothing to do with the reward I may receive possibly maybe in an afterlife NOR the fear of being sent to an eternal afterlife of fourth degree burns, dehydration, and constantly being poked by a pitchfork.

I can see the results of my actions in this lifetime. That is what I am concerned with and that is how I hold myself accountable for them.

Man isn't destroying God, were just pointing out the flaws and watching and is it destroys itself.

My opinion is that the people who incessantly have a need to disprove God have some internal issues that are not settled. Why spend so much time disproving something that does not exist right? Why waste so much time and energy thinking about it and discussing it? Surely some will say they only do so when on the forums and never think about it outside of it but can you really believe them? Einstein said it best:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein#Religious_views

On the other hand a better question should be what is wrong with the people who believe in God but try and destroy other people's faith in their gods and goddesses? What about them that makes them so insecure too?

In the end both people have internal issues and there is a line between talking about it for therapeutic value and going beyond that. As they say you can nurse a grudge but it really does not make it any better.

Hi Clovis,




I believe because alot has changed since Einstein's time ?


In the time of Einstein--Atheists/Agnostics/non- theists did not care so much what others believed.
But ,since 9/11, Bush and his supposed conversations with god, Jesus Camp, Jonesboro Baptist, no end in sight with all the hypocrite "so called men of god" that are preaching & making big bucks, , religion sliming into politics, religion justifying discrimination, holy wars ,cults, Dominionists , distortion & lies of scientific facts/research .....................etc. etc. Y

Do you see why now ?

Of course it's not all bad . I'm just pointing out the disturbing developments lately.

Einstein WOULD understand it now, I am sure.

Besides, there are more non-theists these days. We have to push back a little if we want to survive.

Beliefs create behaviors. You know this. What people believe is important.


Atheism exists only to counter the claims of theists and would not exist were it not for such claims.



Some of us are upset and fed up with what we see as intellectual dishonesty or self-deception. And IT WILL affect us in our lifetime if not our children down the road. This is how I see it.


Kind regards

Intteresting.

I see it the other way round.

As children, we are all ego and self. We want to deny authority, and we believe we are as; important, intelligent, and capable, as anyone else out there, even (perhaps especially) those much; wiser, older, and more mature, than ourselves

Then we grow up.

My belief is that any decline in the acceptance of god is a positive correlation with the present social attitude that no one wants to grow up, and a consequent refusal by many to do so, and start acting like adults should.

True growing up involves the acceptance of truth and reality, and actually knowing what is best for us, and those around us, then acting on that knowledge.

This includes aknowledging, and taking responsibilty for, our actions and their effects on ourselves, and on others.

I'm sorry but grownups are not supposed to believe in fairy tales anymore.

And what makes you believe that non-believers are less grown up ?

Most of us want to believe in a loving god & heaven . This would bring incredible emotional comfort. It makes everything more bearable.

It's not about being stubborn and anti-authority you know.

We just want to think for ourselves. Is this being childish ?

There must be good reasons to believe, and we haven't found any.

Common sense is what is good for us.

Oh, and it's all about BEING REAL and seeking the TRUTH for us (on our own terms, I guess)

I see your points regarding recent events but this issue is much older and was especially strong in the 1800s. This debate was especially pertinent to Einstein's era and his words are very much applicable. Many of the posters here complain about growing up Christian and then seeing it was not for them, the perceived lies they saw, them not wanting to live the lie, and then the difficulty of breaking away. Westboro Baptist Church, 911, conservative politics, and Jesus Camp are not things that turned believers into non-believers they are weapons that non-believers use as believers as part of their arsenal even if most believers denounce all those things as well.

So while 911 especially has made stronger the case for those who despise religion it was not the beginning of this conflict which is a conflict not shared by all.







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_...ce_and_religion

So I have to disagree that Einstein was speaking out of his time.



There is definitely nothing wrong with your view here it is only when someone claims we are wrong and that we believe in fairy tales is when a line is crossed. But one can say they believe it is fairy tales even though they understand another group does not. By all means think for yourself and find your own path or none at all. Believing in God is not for everyone and not everyone should. Reading many of your posts I can see how you steer on the side of remaining respectful of believers and try not to cross that line so commendations towards you. Just know there are believers who do not condemn non-believers as well.

To reply i really only need to address your first point. If you want to believe god is a fairy tale and base your life on that belief that is your prerogative

Of course if god is a real entity, with the powers and motivations attributed to him, it becomes more like the child who refuses to believe in the dangers inherent in walking out on the road, or getting into a car with strangers, or having unprotected sex.

I just pointed out an obvious correlation between a society where adults, like children, refuse to accept personal accountability for their actions, and the decline in a religious belief which actively promoted this value.

What's not being stubborn and anti authority?

It is childish if your thoughts are selfish, immature, and bring unneccessary harm to yourself or to others.

There are plenty of reasons to believe and even sometimes to know. Millions of people (past and present) accept these reasons. If you havent found reason to find them good reasons, try examining yourself to find out why this may the case for you personally.

Common sense is what is GOOD for us and also for others. An adult knows ( or at least has a better chance of knowing) the difference between "good for" and many of the other motivational forms we experience. eg desires.

What we want is not, quite often, what is good for us, but it takes both experience and wisdom to work that out. Until one has accrued sufficient wisdom, the advice of older and wiser people is a good guide.


lol of course young people want to be real man (havent heard that term for yonks) and yes they are curious seekers after truth. However some truths are more real, and more universal, than others, and young people do have this frightening tendency to insist on discovering their own personal truth, by whatever means becomes available. Fortunately most still have a responsible adult or two to ensure they survive the experience.

I don't really think it's GOD that man is trying to destroy at all.

It's the oppression, fear, guilt, shame, ostracization, and all the other negative tactics that a lot of Christian churches and denominations use to try and enforce people to follow their particular interpretation of the "rules" of their God.

I don't want to take anyone's belief away. I try to use logic and less subjective evidence to decide for myself, and I guess I use the same standards for most people. That may be my flaw. I can't understand when someone can look at something that is proven, or common sense, or painfully obvious and pretend not to see it because it goes against what they have been taught in their beliefs.

I'm not even an atheist, so I have no right to try and tell someone else they should be either. However, I will continue to post my opinions and ideas and thoughts on these boards, because it is very interesting and educational for me. And obviously others as well.

agreed. and its So damn annoying as well. seriously. people should just Be good people for the sake of being a good person! not to save their own a$$, and trying to get to heaven. just do it to be nice, and help others. and dont try to scare little naive children into believing in a place called heaven and hell, and they only way to go there, and keep their hide safe is through being nice. be ******* nice in the first place.

In christianity is has nothing to do with being nice, it has to do with believing in Jesus. To the christian, you could be as nice as you want, but you're still going to hell.

what? yes it does. following the ways of jesus. finding salvation through him, and saving your own hide later after death. to get into heaven

Very true and most Christians can attest to this as well.

Yes, but I thought it was understood that "being good" also included believing in and following the examples of Jesus. It's true that you can be as good as gold, but still not be a Christian because you don't believe in God. But the context that is being used here is in the sense of the "good" that a Christian is expected to uphold. No lying, stealing, killing, swearing, gambling, gluttony, greed, lust, premarital sex, adultery, envy, false idolotry, etc all can be piled on top of the expectations put on Christians, and what I am saying is that most of those don't have to have anything to do with Christianity for a person to know they are beneficial. Although personally I do not believe that every one I listed makes an impact to me others in my personal experience I still follow most of them without having to be goaded into it with either a possibility of afterlife reward or punishment.

Which God, people have long been trying to destroy my Gods and Goddesses. They have called them myths and devils. They are still here for me.

My Pagan minister will tell you man created the Gods, but it doesn't make them any less real. He is part of an African religion that believes man created the Gods, but they still honor, worship and give sacrifice to them. I don't believe the same as he does I see the God/desses as part of the spiritual realm, so to me they are real. If people don't like that, too bad, not my problem.

All the extra stuff that comes after believing in Jesus is all nice and great, but to the christian mind, if you're not "saved" (ie accepted Jesus into your heart), than it doesn't matter how nice you are.





Right, but that doesn't mean you should discount all religion, because in Judaism, although there is reward and punishment, its not necessarily dependent on what you do, even though it is a factor. Most of the time, you can be good and you still won't get rewarded. If you aren't, and complain it is said "Why should you get rewarded? You should have done good anyways". If you do get rewarded its not necessarily a reflection on your good, but on the beneficence of the person who rewarded you.

In the same way, if you do wrong, you are not necessarily punished. It's how life works. We don't keep the commandments for reward and punishment, and its one of the things that I notice is at the core of the different mindset between the Orthodox Judaism believer and the Christianity believer. We have two different goals. A Christian sees the after life as extremely important, so important that this life is often dummed down to a lesser living. Whereas in Judaism the after-life is relatively unimportant. We are here now because God wants us here now.

However, I noticed most people have the same goals, we just have different motivations and processes for acheiving that goal.

Hi Clovis,

I still feel with all the recent changes & discoveries (concerning religion and the sciences) that Einstein would feel differently. Of course I can't be 100% sure of this, but SO MUCH has changed. It is irrelevant at this point now ,so I will let it go.

I am not so much an unbeliever in the concept god (am Agnostic)-it's just that I have come to the conclusion that the bible is a terrible (as is the Koran & others.) source for representing god, if he exists.

If anything it seems that Satan (of course of IF he exists) inspired these books to cause discord & confusion among the peoples of this world.

Now I am a big fan of Berlinerblau, Ehrman & some german biblical scholars. They have confirmed my suspicions >>as have also scientific evidence /discoveries, historical /archeological evidence.

But now add to the stew my own & shared personal experiences (family,friends experienced it too) with frequent unexplainable phenomena. Plus toss in a mind that has the need to analyze EVERYTHING..and there, voila, you have me, an Agnostic, that understands the Atheist position but respects/understands belief in SOME of the paranormal.
I just happen to feel that some day there will be scientific explanations for almost everything

Now just because I and others have experienced things together that seem to border on the paranormal> however, these experiences still do not constitute as evidence>on a scientific level ,till observed,recorded. But it does leave me with an option to entertain the thought of these existing >be it god/gods, entities/energies/dimensions. Maybe it's all neurological phenomena but that does not explain how it's shared in some instances.

It's a complicated world out there.


In the end we choose our own path. We have to. We are the sum of our experiences.

By the way I do not despise all religions. I despise cults. Sadly however I see alot of religions as big cults-some milder versions than others.

I just have a problem with how people interpret some of these ancient writings. They can and have been often used as dangerous weapons for control, fear mongering, discrimination, hatred, intolerance, guilt & delusion. Additionally, they have intentionally and sometimes through human error been distorted/edited/packaged to appear attractive (to some)/benign. And yes, they also have been used to commit acts of kindness, giving and love. I just find it disturbing that you need a book to get the idea to do the good things. It's common sense and can be passed down by example. Many people have the kindness/empathy/giving in their character beforehand. I see it often. They don't even need an instruction manual. They have emotional intelligence.

Religion fills an emotional void that people seem to desire. But like I said it's NOT ALL BAD.

It carries fringe benefits for the emotions/psyche.

I do view religion as a comfortable band-aid /security blanket/pacifier.

Spirituality and religion are different. It seems spirituality is the universal truth in/of self with little or no influence by other's ideas and it can't be summed up/described in mere words.

Religion is a byproduct of others ideas/intentions-that one has "adopted" to choose as their own.

And which of these (if any) would you suggest a non christian might find good? Which of these might a non christian see as a positive thing? Which of these might a non christian fight to uphold their right to, acknowledging that indeed they are bad (harmful ) things, but golly gosh i can hurt myself and others if I so choose. Thats my god given right. lol

That may be true, but in a christian mind, if you believe in jesus, confess and follow all the steps outlined for salvation, but then still deliberately act to harm people or deliberately commit other sins, you wont be saved either.
God judges the heart and intent, not the actions, be they seen as good or bad by the surrounding society.
A person must love god , believe in him, and make a genuine effort to follow his will, in order to be saved. Thus the motivation is love, not fear, and a person who acts from fear probably wont gain salvation in the end, anyway.

and that is just sooooo damn sad and mentally *******ed as well. just plain stupid that people think like that.
example: john believes in jesus, and thinks he was his saviour. john sits on his fat *** everyday, and does nothing, and helps no one, treats his family like crap and doesnt care what others think. spends his money on himself and whatever he wants. but he believes in jesus.
jack doesnt believe in jesus or god. jack works at an orphanage. he volunteers time on the weekend to help out at soup kitchens and the salvation army. he donates money to charity. he was always there for his sons hockey games...........jack is going to hell.

Great example! It is such a idiotic idea. To believe good people are going to hell is is a sadistic belief. I am not sure if god exists myself. Much evidence seems to point to a god not existing for me. I believe if a heaven and a hell exist I will go to heaven because I'm a good person. I live my life based on my morals. Which are not to cause harm to others and be a kind person. Yet some would tell me I will burn in hell for all eternity?! What the hell! That's ****** up. If a god is out there and is all-loving it should be no problem if good people were unbelievers. Because the people lived good lives. What deity with any love would sentence them to hell for eternity. That is sick.

agreed. and thats Not a god id wanna kneel down too at any time, or worship.
it makes no sense. be kind to be a Good person, to help others. not to go to heaven. and you dont need jesus to do that either. never did

I am not sure that I understand your question, but I will try to answer it.

A non-christian would most likely find that abstaining from the following things on my list as "good":

lying, stealing, killing, swearing, greed, adultery

Because of the fact that these actions have victims (other than the perpetrator). If someone steals something, there is a victim, whether it be the person who was stolen from, or the store owner, or the owners of the house they robbed. If someone lies, it has a higher potential to hurt another person than telling the truth. Adultery always hurts someone. Killing is an obvious one, but it has multiple victims, the dead and the ones left behind to deal with a loss. Greed takes away from others.


And the ones in the list that non-christians are less inclined to adhere to?

swearing, gambling, gluttony, lust, premarital sex, envy, false idolotry,

These are victimless, unless you count any negative effects that would apply to the perpetrator, for example, lying can bring pain to the liar when he/she causes pain to a loved one.

And of course, unless you count God, who makes himself a victim in these actions. Swearing is related to using the Lords name in vain, which makes God feel disrespected. I really am not sure why gambling is looked at as sinful, other than the fact that some say it is a gateway to other sins. Gluttony? Because God is so proud of his design of the human body that we should revere it as a temple? I'm not sure but there is no victim there either. Lust and premarital sex don't have any direct victims, except in the case of rape or molestation. There are some indirect "victims" like unwanted children but they are not always the outcome of those "sins."

I don't know exactly what you meant by which ones would a nonchristian fight to uphold their right to, but I think you are wrong in assuming "by golly, i will hurt myself and others if i want to" is the creed for non christians. I don't want to do anything that will hurt others. But I will not live my life trying to not hurt Gods feelings because I didn't follow his otherwise victimless rules.

Does that help?

Thanks sun dog. i think youve picked the ones most non christians would. One difference is that a christian does not believe he/she has a right to harm him/herself, because their body is a gift from god.This might be a good attitude for non christians to have also, ie to look after their body.

Of course none of those sins is actuallyvictimless and they all hurt/or have the potentia lto hurt, others than the "sinner"

Gambling wastes the money earned by your labours and thus wastes your time. I guess thats ok if you dont have a family to support, or anything more productive to do with your money, but gambling actually brings a lot of harm in many ways to those around a gambler.

Swearing (not even blaspheming)is usually aimed at someone else. It can hurt the self esteem and the dignity of the person its aimed at. If its purely aimed at your own stupidity, that will lower your own self esteem, make you a less efective person, and thus less able to help those around you.
The effects of gluttony in the western world have a huge effect on the medical costs of society and thu on everyones taxes. It also increases the environmental footprint of a person, and reduces the resources available to support the rest of the worlds poulation.
Lust tends to objectify people even if it is not acted upon, and that makes our society and our relationships with others less than they should be. But the main problem is that normally, if not controlled, it will be acted upon, which willl bring all the normal social problems associated with lust which is not governed by love and reason.
Premarital sex( and extra marital sex) devalue the nature and function of marriage, one part of which, which is to provide a safe framework for sex. Anything which devalues the significance of marriage in a society does considerable harm to many people.

Envy probably harms others only because it is a motivational force whichh causes peopelto act in ways which harm others. (it also signifies a lack of love for oneself which is not good). A person who truly loves and understands themself will never need to feel envy at/for anyone else.

False idols means worshipping inappropriate objects. Any man who buys a flash new car, instead of spending the money on his kids, for example, might be worshipping a false idol. Too much money/time etc spent on looking beautiful (beyond that needed to maintain health, hygeine, and a healthy respect for ones self, would also be worshipping a false idol.

Not everyone will agree, but the way i look at it, such principles can improve the lives of all people if applied , not just christians.

Paul disagrees saying that all a person needs is to "confess with his mouth and believe in his heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and God resurrected him from the dead".


That's modern christianity. Because being a good person doesn't matter. Your actions don't matter. At least, not to your salvation. It's all about the blood, anything else is just extra.

case in point: religion can be very, Very stupid and pointless. well, modern christianity anyways.

Again I agree. Religion can be very stupid. I'm so bad! I'm a good person , and live my life by my morals but I deserve to suffer for all eternity! To have my limbs ripped off,impale me with sharp objects and I scream in the fire of hell. Yet I deserve it I'm a horrible , horrible monster who deserves eternal dismemberment and many other vile creative tortures! What the hell is wrong with people that believe that?! I can safely say that there is something wrong with you if you believe I should go through eternal suffering. That's just messed up.