It would seem that we have some new people here & I've been trying to think of a new topic. I'm not sure that this has been brought up before so here it goes.
I was told once that faith and belief were two different things - that belief was a precursor to faith. Belief was determined by a logical process and acceptance of the result of that process.
As these are general definitions, they do not address truth. For one can have faith in a false God, one can have faith in a “true” God but surround the God with heretical or false dogma and creed and one can have faith in a pure essence of God. Faith in Gods is also possible as is the faith of there being no God or Gods.
What say you?
Full Version: What is faith?
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
Faith is believing in something you can't prove. You can't prove whether or not there is a God or Gods. You can faith in many things. Faith your children well be there for you when you get old and sick, faith in sun coming up tomorrow, we don't know fore sure these things will happen. You want it to be true, so you have faith that it will be. We don't truly know fore sure there are Gods, cause we can't prove it, so we have faith they are there.
According to the Bible:
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Jun 18 2008, 06:12 AM) 
It would seem that we have some new people here & I've been trying to think of a new topic. I'm not sure that this has been brought up before so here it goes.
I was told once that faith and belief were two different things - that belief was a precursor to faith. Belief was determined by a logical process and acceptance of the result of that process.
As these are general definitions, they do not address truth. For one can have faith in a false God, one can have faith in a “true” God but surround the God with heretical or false dogma and creed and one can have faith in a pure essence of God. Faith in Gods is also possible as is the faith of there being no God or Gods.
What say you?
I was told once that faith and belief were two different things - that belief was a precursor to faith. Belief was determined by a logical process and acceptance of the result of that process.
As these are general definitions, they do not address truth. For one can have faith in a false God, one can have faith in a “true” God but surround the God with heretical or false dogma and creed and one can have faith in a pure essence of God. Faith in Gods is also possible as is the faith of there being no God or Gods.
What say you?
Aldous Huxley on faith:
FAITH
The word "faith" has a variety of meanings, which it is important to distinguish. In some contexts it is used as a synonym for "trust," as when we say that we have faith in Dr. X's diagnostic skill or in lawyer Y's integrity. Analogous to this is our "faith" in authority---the belief that what certain persons say about certain subjects is likely, because of their special qualifications, to be true. On other occasions "faith" stands for belief in propositions which we have not had occasion to verify for ourselves, but which we know that we could verify if we had the inclination, the opportunity and the necessary capacities. In this sense of the word we have "faith," even though we may never have been to Australia, that there is such a creature as a duck-billed platypus; we have "faith" in the atomic theory, even though we may never have performed the experiments on which that theory rests, and be incapable of understanding the mathematics by which it is supported.
And finally there is the "faith," which is a belief in propositions which we know we cannot verify, even if we should desire to do so---propositions such as those of the Athanasian Creed or those which constitute the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This kind of "faith" is defined by the Scholastics as an act of the intellect moved to assent by the will.
Faith in the first three senses of the word plays a very important part, not only in activities of everyday life, but even in those of pure and applied science. Credo ut intelligam----and also, we should add, ut agaim and ut vivam. Faith is a pre-condition of all systematic knowing, all purposive doing and all decent living. Societies are held together, not primarily by the fear of the many for the coercive power of the few, but by a widespread faith in the other fellow's decency.Such a faith tends to create its own object, while the widespread mutual mistrust, due, for example, to war or domestic dissension, creates the object of mistrust.
Passing now from the moral to the intellectual sphere, we find faith lying at the root of all organized thinking. Science and technology could not exist unless we had faith in the reliability of the universe---unless, in Clerk Maxwell's words, we implicitly believed that the book of Nature is really a book and not a magazine, a coherent work of art and not a hodge-podge of mutually irrelevant snippets. To this general faith in the reasonableness and trustworthiness of the world the searcher after truth must add two kinds of special faith---faith in the authority of qualified experts, sufficient to permit him to take their word for statements which he personally has not verified; and faith in his own working hypotheses, sufficient to induce him to test his provisional beliefs by means of appropriate action.
The action may confirm the belief which inspired it. Alternatively it may bring proof that the original working hypothesis was ill founded, in which case it will have to be modified until it becomes comfortable to the facts and so passes from the realm of faith to that of knowledge.
The fourth kind of faith is the thing which is commonly called "religious faith". The usage is justifiable, not because the other kinds of faith are not fundamental in religion just as they are in secular affairs, but because this willed assent to propositions which are known to be unverifiable occurs in religion, and only in religion, as a characteristic addition to faith as trust, faith in authority and faith in unverified but verifiable propositions.
This is the kind of faith which according to Christian theologians, justifies and saves. In its extreme and most uncompromising form, such a doctrine can be very dangerous. Here, for example, is a passage from one of Luther's letters. Esto peccator, et pecca fortiter; sed fortius crede et gaude in Christo, qui victor est peccati, mortis et mundi. Peccandum est quam diu sic sumus; vita haec non est habitatio justitiae. ("Be a sinner and sin strongly; but yet more strongly believe and rejoice in Christ, whi is the conqueror of sin, death and the world. So long as we are as we are, there must be sinning; this life is not the dwelling place pf righteousness.")
To the danger that faith in a doctrine of justification by faith may serve as an excuse for and even an invitation to sin must be added another danger, namely, that the faith which is supposed to save may be faith in propositions not merely unverifiable, but repugnant to reason and the moral sense, and entirely at variance with the findings of those who have fulfilled the conditions of spiritual insight into the Nature of Things.
"This is the Acme of faith," says Luther in his De Servo Arbitrio, "to believe that God who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just who, at his own pleasure, has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that He seems to delight in the torture of the wretched and to be more deserving of hate than of love. If by any effort reason I could conceive how God, who shows so much anger and harshness, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of faith."
Revelation (which, when it is genuine, is simplythe record of the immediate experience of those who are pure enough in heart and poor enough in spirit to be able to see God) says nothing at all of these hideous doctrines, to which the will forces the quite naturally and rightly reluctant intellect to give assent. Such notions are the product, not of the insight of saints, but of the busy phantasy or jurists, who were so far from having transcended selfness and the prejudices of education that they had the folly and presumption to interpet the universe in terms of Jewish and Roman aw with which they happened to be familiar. "Woe unto you lawyers," said Christ. The denunciation was prophetic and for all time.
The core and spiritual heart of all the higher religions is the Perennial Philosophy; and the Perennial Philosophy can be assented to and acted upon without resort to the kind of faith, about which Luther was writing in the foregoing passages. There must of course be faith as trust--for confidence in one's fellows is the beginning of charity towards men, and confidence not only in the material, but also the moral and spiritual reliability of the universe, is the beginning of charity or love-knowledge in relation to God. There must also be faith in Authority---the authority of those whose selflessness has qualified them to know the spiritual Ground of all being by direct acquaintance as well as by report. And finally there must be faith in such propositions about Reality as are enunciated by philosophers in the light of genuine revelation---propositions which the believer knows he can, if he is prepared to fulfil the necessary conditions, verify for himself.
But, so long as the Perennial Philosophy is accepted in its essential simplicity, there is no need of the willed assent to propositions known in advance to be unverifiable. Here it is necessary to add that such unverifiable propositions may become verifiable to the extent that intense faith affects the psychic substratum and so creates an existence which derives its objectivity from the mental activity of those who intensely believe in it cannot possibly be the spiritual Ground of the world, that a mind busily engaged in the voluntary and intellectual activity, which is "religious faith" cannot possibly be in the condition of the unitive knowledge of the Ground.
That is why the Buddhists affirm that "loving faith leads to heaven; but obedience to the Dharma leads to Nirvana." Faith in the existence and power of any supernatural entity which is less than ultimate spiritual Reality, and in any form of worship that falls short of self-naughting, will certainly, if the object of faith is intrinsically good, result in improvement of character, and probably in posthumous survival of the improved personality under "heavenly" conditions.
But this personal survival within what is still the temporal order is not the eternal life of timeless union with the Spirit. This eternal life "stands in the knowledge" of the Godhead, not in faith in anything less than the Godhead.
The immortality attained through the acquisition of any objective condition (e.g., the condition-merited through good works, which have been inspired by love of, and faith in, something less than the supreme Godhead--of being united in act to what is worshipped) is liable to end; for it is distinctly stated in the Scriptures that karma is never the cause of emancipation.
---Shankara
Karma is the causal sequence in time, from which we are delivered solely by "dying to" the temporal self and becoming united with the eternal, which is beyond time and cause. For "as to the notion of a First Cause, or a Causa Sui" (to quote the word of an eminent theologian and philosopher, Dr. F. R. Tennant), "we have, on the one hand, to bear in mind that we refute ourselves in trying to establish it by extension of the application of the causal catergory, for causality when universalized contains a contradiction; and on the other, to remember that the ultimate Ground simply 'is.' " Only when the individual also "simply is," by reason of his union through love-knowledge with the Ground, can there be any question of complete and eternal liberation.
Chapter Finished
Faith appears to me to be wishful/hopeful thinking, just taken a step further.
Salaam (Peace)
The Arabic word Iman is most often translated "faith" or "belief", the root word ('amana) also carries the meaning of "trust". Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was called 'Ameen, meaning "trustworthy" from the same root. A person who has Iman is called Mu'meen (believer/faithful). Iman is the Second Level of Religion right after the first level Islam (Surrender/Submission). Iman (Faith/Belief) is spiritual progression upon the religious path; moving from Acceptance to Faith.
“The wandering (desert) Arabs say “amanaa” (we believe/have faith). Say ‘You
do not believe’, but rather say “aslamnaa” (we submit) for the Iman has not
entered into your Hearts. Yet, if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He
will not withhold any of the rewards of your deeds from you. Indeed! Allah is
Forgiving, Merciful.”
(Surah 49:14)
The Arabic word Iman is most often translated "faith" or "belief", the root word ('amana) also carries the meaning of "trust". Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was called 'Ameen, meaning "trustworthy" from the same root. A person who has Iman is called Mu'meen (believer/faithful). Iman is the Second Level of Religion right after the first level Islam (Surrender/Submission). Iman (Faith/Belief) is spiritual progression upon the religious path; moving from Acceptance to Faith.
“The wandering (desert) Arabs say “amanaa” (we believe/have faith). Say ‘You
do not believe’, but rather say “aslamnaa” (we submit) for the Iman has not
entered into your Hearts. Yet, if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He
will not withhold any of the rewards of your deeds from you. Indeed! Allah is
Forgiving, Merciful.”
(Surah 49:14)
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Jun 17 2008, 06:00 PM)
Aldous Huxley on faith:
FAITH
The word "faith" has a variety of meanings, which it is important to distinguish. In some contexts it is used as a synonym for "trust," as when we say that we have faith in Dr. X's diagnostic skill or in lawyer Y's integrity. Analogous to this is our "faith" in authority---the belief that what certain persons say about certain subjects is likely, because of their special qualifications, to be true. On other occasions "faith" stands for belief in propositions which we have not had occasion to verify for ourselves, but which we know that we could verify if we had the inclination, the opportunity and the necessary capacities. In this sense of the word we have "faith," even though we may never have been to Australia, that there is such a creature as a duck-billed platypus; we have "faith" in the atomic theory, even though we may never have performed the experiments on which that theory rests, and be incapable of understanding the mathematics by which it is supported.
And finally there is the "faith," which is a belief in propositions which we know we cannot verify, even if we should desire to do so---propositions such as those of the Athanasian Creed or those which constitute the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This kind of "faith" is defined by the Scholastics as an act of the intellect moved to assent by the will.
Faith in the first three senses of the word plays a very important part, not only in activities of everyday life, but even in those of pure and applied science. Credo ut intelligam----and also, we should add, ut agaim and ut vivam. Faith is a pre-condition of all systematic knowing, all purposive doing and all decent living. Societies are held together, not primarily by the fear of the many for the coercive power of the few, but by a widespread faith in the other fellow's decency.Such a faith tends to create its own object, while the widespread mutual mistrust, due, for example, to war or domestic dissension, creates the object of mistrust.
Passing now from the moral to the intellectual sphere, we find faith lying at the root of all organized thinking. Science and technology could not exist unless we had faith in the reliability of the universe---unless, in Clerk Maxwell's words, we implicitly believed that the book of Nature is really a book and not a magazine, a coherent work of art and not a hodge-podge of mutually irrelevant snippets. To this general faith in the reasonableness and trustworthiness of the world the searcher after truth must add two kinds of special faith---faith in the authority of qualified experts, sufficient to permit him to take their word for statements which he personally has not verified; and faith in his own working hypotheses, sufficient to induce him to test his provisional beliefs by means of appropriate action.
The action may confirm the belief which inspired it. Alternatively it may bring proof that the original working hypothesis was ill founded, in which case it will have to be modified until it becomes comfortable to the facts and so passes from the realm of faith to that of knowledge.
The fourth kind of faith is the thing which is commonly called "religious faith". The usage is justifiable, not because the other kinds of faith are not fundamental in religion just as they are in secular affairs, but because this willed assent to propositions which are known to be unverifiable occurs in religion, and only in religion, as a characteristic addition to faith as trust, faith in authority and faith in unverified but verifiable propositions.
This is the kind of faith which according to Christian theologians, justifies and saves. In its extreme and most uncompromising form, such a doctrine can be very dangerous. Here, for example, is a passage from one of Luther's letters. Esto peccator, et pecca fortiter; sed fortius crede et gaude in Christo, qui victor est peccati, mortis et mundi. Peccandum est quam diu sic sumus; vita haec non est habitatio justitiae. ("Be a sinner and sin strongly; but yet more strongly believe and rejoice in Christ, whi is the conqueror of sin, death and the world. So long as we are as we are, there must be sinning; this life is not the dwelling place pf righteousness.")
To the danger that faith in a doctrine of justification by faith may serve as an excuse for and even an invitation to sin must be added another danger, namely, that the faith which is supposed to save may be faith in propositions not merely unverifiable, but repugnant to reason and the moral sense, and entirely at variance with the findings of those who have fulfilled the conditions of spiritual insight into the Nature of Things.
"This is the Acme of faith," says Luther in his De Servo Arbitrio, "to believe that God who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just who, at his own pleasure, has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that He seems to delight in the torture of the wretched and to be more deserving of hate than of love. If by any effort reason I could conceive how God, who shows so much anger and harshness, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of faith."
Revelation (which, when it is genuine, is simplythe record of the immediate experience of those who are pure enough in heart and poor enough in spirit to be able to see God) says nothing at all of these hideous doctrines, to which the will forces the quite naturally and rightly reluctant intellect to give assent. Such notions are the product, not of the insight of saints, but of the busy phantasy or jurists, who were so far from having transcended selfness and the prejudices of education that they had the folly and presumption to interpet the universe in terms of Jewish and Roman aw with which they happened to be familiar. "Woe unto you lawyers," said Christ. The denunciation was prophetic and for all time.
The core and spiritual heart of all the higher religions is the Perennial Philosophy; and the Perennial Philosophy can be assented to and acted upon without resort to the kind of faith, about which Luther was writing in the foregoing passages. There must of course be faith as trust--for confidence in one's fellows is the beginning of charity towards men, and confidence not only in the material, but also the moral and spiritual reliability of the universe, is the beginning of charity or love-knowledge in relation to God. There must also be faith in Authority---the authority of those whose selflessness has qualified them to know the spiritual Ground of all being by direct acquaintance as well as by report. And finally there must be faith in such propositions about Reality as are enunciated by philosophers in the light of genuine revelation---propositions which the believer knows he can, if he is prepared to fulfil the necessary conditions, verify for himself.
But, so long as the Perennial Philosophy is accepted in its essential simplicity, there is no need of the willed assent to propositions known in advance to be unverifiable. Here it is necessary to add that such unverifiable propositions may become verifiable to the extent that intense faith affects the psychic substratum and so creates an existence which derives its objectivity from the mental activity of those who intensely believe in it cannot possibly be the spiritual Ground of the world, that a mind busily engaged in the voluntary and intellectual activity, which is "religious faith" cannot possibly be in the condition of the unitive knowledge of the Ground.
That is why the Buddhists affirm that "loving faith leads to heaven; but obedience to the Dharma leads to Nirvana." Faith in the existence and power of any supernatural entity which is less than ultimate spiritual Reality, and in any form of worship that falls short of self-naughting, will certainly, if the object of faith is intrinsically good, result in improvement of character, and probably in posthumous survival of the improved personality under "heavenly" conditions.
But this personal survival within what is still the temporal order is not the eternal life of timeless union with the Spirit. This eternal life "stands in the knowledge" of the Godhead, not in faith in anything less than the Godhead.
The immortality attained through the acquisition of any objective condition (e.g., the condition-merited through good works, which have been inspired by love of, and faith in, something less than the supreme Godhead--of being united in act to what is worshipped) is liable to end; for it is distinctly stated in the Scriptures that karma is never the cause of emancipation.
---Shankara
Karma is the causal sequence in time, from which we are delivered solely by "dying to" the temporal self and becoming united with the eternal, which is beyond time and cause. For "as to the notion of a First Cause, or a Causa Sui" (to quote the word of an eminent theologian and philosopher, Dr. F. R. Tennant), "we have, on the one hand, to bear in mind that we refute ourselves in trying to establish it by extension of the application of the causal catergory, for causality when universalized contains a contradiction; and on the other, to remember that the ultimate Ground simply 'is.' " Only when the individual also "simply is," by reason of his union through love-knowledge with the Ground, can there be any question of complete and eternal liberation.
Chapter Finished
FAITH
The word "faith" has a variety of meanings, which it is important to distinguish. In some contexts it is used as a synonym for "trust," as when we say that we have faith in Dr. X's diagnostic skill or in lawyer Y's integrity. Analogous to this is our "faith" in authority---the belief that what certain persons say about certain subjects is likely, because of their special qualifications, to be true. On other occasions "faith" stands for belief in propositions which we have not had occasion to verify for ourselves, but which we know that we could verify if we had the inclination, the opportunity and the necessary capacities. In this sense of the word we have "faith," even though we may never have been to Australia, that there is such a creature as a duck-billed platypus; we have "faith" in the atomic theory, even though we may never have performed the experiments on which that theory rests, and be incapable of understanding the mathematics by which it is supported.
And finally there is the "faith," which is a belief in propositions which we know we cannot verify, even if we should desire to do so---propositions such as those of the Athanasian Creed or those which constitute the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This kind of "faith" is defined by the Scholastics as an act of the intellect moved to assent by the will.
Faith in the first three senses of the word plays a very important part, not only in activities of everyday life, but even in those of pure and applied science. Credo ut intelligam----and also, we should add, ut agaim and ut vivam. Faith is a pre-condition of all systematic knowing, all purposive doing and all decent living. Societies are held together, not primarily by the fear of the many for the coercive power of the few, but by a widespread faith in the other fellow's decency.Such a faith tends to create its own object, while the widespread mutual mistrust, due, for example, to war or domestic dissension, creates the object of mistrust.
Passing now from the moral to the intellectual sphere, we find faith lying at the root of all organized thinking. Science and technology could not exist unless we had faith in the reliability of the universe---unless, in Clerk Maxwell's words, we implicitly believed that the book of Nature is really a book and not a magazine, a coherent work of art and not a hodge-podge of mutually irrelevant snippets. To this general faith in the reasonableness and trustworthiness of the world the searcher after truth must add two kinds of special faith---faith in the authority of qualified experts, sufficient to permit him to take their word for statements which he personally has not verified; and faith in his own working hypotheses, sufficient to induce him to test his provisional beliefs by means of appropriate action.
The action may confirm the belief which inspired it. Alternatively it may bring proof that the original working hypothesis was ill founded, in which case it will have to be modified until it becomes comfortable to the facts and so passes from the realm of faith to that of knowledge.
The fourth kind of faith is the thing which is commonly called "religious faith". The usage is justifiable, not because the other kinds of faith are not fundamental in religion just as they are in secular affairs, but because this willed assent to propositions which are known to be unverifiable occurs in religion, and only in religion, as a characteristic addition to faith as trust, faith in authority and faith in unverified but verifiable propositions.
This is the kind of faith which according to Christian theologians, justifies and saves. In its extreme and most uncompromising form, such a doctrine can be very dangerous. Here, for example, is a passage from one of Luther's letters. Esto peccator, et pecca fortiter; sed fortius crede et gaude in Christo, qui victor est peccati, mortis et mundi. Peccandum est quam diu sic sumus; vita haec non est habitatio justitiae. ("Be a sinner and sin strongly; but yet more strongly believe and rejoice in Christ, whi is the conqueror of sin, death and the world. So long as we are as we are, there must be sinning; this life is not the dwelling place pf righteousness.")
To the danger that faith in a doctrine of justification by faith may serve as an excuse for and even an invitation to sin must be added another danger, namely, that the faith which is supposed to save may be faith in propositions not merely unverifiable, but repugnant to reason and the moral sense, and entirely at variance with the findings of those who have fulfilled the conditions of spiritual insight into the Nature of Things.
"This is the Acme of faith," says Luther in his De Servo Arbitrio, "to believe that God who saves so few and condemns so many, is merciful; that He is just who, at his own pleasure, has made us necessarily doomed to damnation, so that He seems to delight in the torture of the wretched and to be more deserving of hate than of love. If by any effort reason I could conceive how God, who shows so much anger and harshness, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of faith."
Revelation (which, when it is genuine, is simplythe record of the immediate experience of those who are pure enough in heart and poor enough in spirit to be able to see God) says nothing at all of these hideous doctrines, to which the will forces the quite naturally and rightly reluctant intellect to give assent. Such notions are the product, not of the insight of saints, but of the busy phantasy or jurists, who were so far from having transcended selfness and the prejudices of education that they had the folly and presumption to interpet the universe in terms of Jewish and Roman aw with which they happened to be familiar. "Woe unto you lawyers," said Christ. The denunciation was prophetic and for all time.
The core and spiritual heart of all the higher religions is the Perennial Philosophy; and the Perennial Philosophy can be assented to and acted upon without resort to the kind of faith, about which Luther was writing in the foregoing passages. There must of course be faith as trust--for confidence in one's fellows is the beginning of charity towards men, and confidence not only in the material, but also the moral and spiritual reliability of the universe, is the beginning of charity or love-knowledge in relation to God. There must also be faith in Authority---the authority of those whose selflessness has qualified them to know the spiritual Ground of all being by direct acquaintance as well as by report. And finally there must be faith in such propositions about Reality as are enunciated by philosophers in the light of genuine revelation---propositions which the believer knows he can, if he is prepared to fulfil the necessary conditions, verify for himself.
But, so long as the Perennial Philosophy is accepted in its essential simplicity, there is no need of the willed assent to propositions known in advance to be unverifiable. Here it is necessary to add that such unverifiable propositions may become verifiable to the extent that intense faith affects the psychic substratum and so creates an existence which derives its objectivity from the mental activity of those who intensely believe in it cannot possibly be the spiritual Ground of the world, that a mind busily engaged in the voluntary and intellectual activity, which is "religious faith" cannot possibly be in the condition of the unitive knowledge of the Ground.
That is why the Buddhists affirm that "loving faith leads to heaven; but obedience to the Dharma leads to Nirvana." Faith in the existence and power of any supernatural entity which is less than ultimate spiritual Reality, and in any form of worship that falls short of self-naughting, will certainly, if the object of faith is intrinsically good, result in improvement of character, and probably in posthumous survival of the improved personality under "heavenly" conditions.
But this personal survival within what is still the temporal order is not the eternal life of timeless union with the Spirit. This eternal life "stands in the knowledge" of the Godhead, not in faith in anything less than the Godhead.
The immortality attained through the acquisition of any objective condition (e.g., the condition-merited through good works, which have been inspired by love of, and faith in, something less than the supreme Godhead--of being united in act to what is worshipped) is liable to end; for it is distinctly stated in the Scriptures that karma is never the cause of emancipation.
---Shankara
Karma is the causal sequence in time, from which we are delivered solely by "dying to" the temporal self and becoming united with the eternal, which is beyond time and cause. For "as to the notion of a First Cause, or a Causa Sui" (to quote the word of an eminent theologian and philosopher, Dr. F. R. Tennant), "we have, on the one hand, to bear in mind that we refute ourselves in trying to establish it by extension of the application of the causal catergory, for causality when universalized contains a contradiction; and on the other, to remember that the ultimate Ground simply 'is.' " Only when the individual also "simply is," by reason of his union through love-knowledge with the Ground, can there be any question of complete and eternal liberation.
Chapter Finished
Honey, Thats alot of Faith....
Blessings
Hey,
Nice topic...
Since i dont have the time to g through all the paes nowi am not doing so. I will just state my views. Well, the meaning of "faith" is that when u believe something, even though there isnt any logical proof/reason behind it. "Belief" is when u believe something by seeing/sensing Prooves/evidenses/reasons, etc.
So, i will say that we shud have "belief" NOT "faith". Casue if we have faith, then how do we know which religion is correct and which isnt?? We need to see evidenses and logics in order to understand what is God, which religion i the correct or not. If we are born in a family which follows a partiular religion and we follow "faith" there, then we wont be able to understand what is corect and whats not as, we are not seeing prooves/evidenses instead we are believing that or no reason.
But if someone follw "belief" then he will believe that thing which can be prooved....thus he can cometo the correct conclusion.
So for me, we need to have "belief" not "faith".
And the evidence of God exisitng, and many other things are there everywhere aroud us. We just need to see them.
Labib
Nice topic...
Since i dont have the time to g through all the paes nowi am not doing so. I will just state my views. Well, the meaning of "faith" is that when u believe something, even though there isnt any logical proof/reason behind it. "Belief" is when u believe something by seeing/sensing Prooves/evidenses/reasons, etc.
So, i will say that we shud have "belief" NOT "faith". Casue if we have faith, then how do we know which religion is correct and which isnt?? We need to see evidenses and logics in order to understand what is God, which religion i the correct or not. If we are born in a family which follows a partiular religion and we follow "faith" there, then we wont be able to understand what is corect and whats not as, we are not seeing prooves/evidenses instead we are believing that or no reason.
But if someone follw "belief" then he will believe that thing which can be prooved....thus he can cometo the correct conclusion.
So for me, we need to have "belief" not "faith".
And the evidence of God exisitng, and many other things are there everywhere aroud us. We just need to see them.
Labib
Faith without works is dead.
I found this on wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity
I found this on wiki:
QUOTE
The word "faith", translated from the Greek πιστις (pi'stis), was primarily used in the New Testament with the Greek perfect tense and translates as a noun-verb hybrid; which is not adequately conveyed by the English noun. Pi'stis in the New Testament context is a physical action, based upon a mental belief and sustained with confidence. Belief, in this context is non-synonymous with faith because, belief primarily conveys the mental action, thought of confidence, trust, and/or firm persuasion, not the physical act. Depending on the context, the Greek word may also be understood to mean "faithfulness" or "fidelity" (cf. 1 Thess 3:7; Titus 2:10).
Commenting on the function of faith in relation to the covenant of God, the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 ESV). Υποστασις (hy-po'sta-sis), translated "assurance" here, commonly appears in ancient papyrus business documents, conveying the idea that a covenant is an exchange of assurances which guarantees the future transfer of possessions described in the contract. In view of this, Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: "Faith is the title deed of things hoped for" (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1963, p. 660). The Greek word e´leg-khos, rendered "conviction" at Hebrews 11:1 (ESV), conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. This evidence for conviction is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it. Christian faith, described in these terms, is not synonymous with credulity.
Commenting on the function of faith in relation to the covenant of God, the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 ESV). Υποστασις (hy-po'sta-sis), translated "assurance" here, commonly appears in ancient papyrus business documents, conveying the idea that a covenant is an exchange of assurances which guarantees the future transfer of possessions described in the contract. In view of this, Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: "Faith is the title deed of things hoped for" (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1963, p. 660). The Greek word e´leg-khos, rendered "conviction" at Hebrews 11:1 (ESV), conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. This evidence for conviction is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it. Christian faith, described in these terms, is not synonymous with credulity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity
QUOTE
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
What is faith?
Blind acceptance without question of somebody else's belief.
Blind acceptance without question of somebody else's belief.
'Faith is believing what you know ain't so'
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
Faith; Putting all your eggs in God's basket, then counting your blessings before they hatch.
QUOTE (fullywired @ Jun 19 2008, 08:40 AM)
'Faith is believing what you know ain't so'
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
Faith is beleiving what you "hope" to be so
QUOTE (fullywired @ Jun 19 2008, 08:40 PM)
'Faith is believing what you know ain't so'
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
So faith in reason is because deep down we know it doesnt exist?
Reason follows the evidence ,faith is self deception
fullywired
fullywired
Faith is believing allah and following his protocols (rules) its not only praying and following hadis sherif its having faith in allah all times like when u see some thing illicit , allah wants u to abstain from such things and divert your mind.Thats faith. . .
Allah created heaven for us and gave a simple interview on earth, assume as HR round where hr looks into you through some tests like u r behaviour ,character,communication well so u see similarities .. exaclty we are in test every second of life and we are being rewarded here and in heaven too.... just have faith . . .
Mohammad SAW (PBUH) said to get into heaven take 2 steps :-
1. Control Desire (NAFS)
2. STEP INTO HEAVEN
May allah the almighty give all of us janna [ HEAVEN ]... Ameen
BLESS ME PLZ
Allah created heaven for us and gave a simple interview on earth, assume as HR round where hr looks into you through some tests like u r behaviour ,character,communication well so u see similarities .. exaclty we are in test every second of life and we are being rewarded here and in heaven too.... just have faith . . .
Mohammad SAW (PBUH) said to get into heaven take 2 steps :-
1. Control Desire (NAFS)
2. STEP INTO HEAVEN
May allah the almighty give all of us janna [ HEAVEN ]... Ameen
BLESS ME PLZ
Faith is basically taking a step to accept a perspective of reality and truth although you can not say for sure 100% (absolutely perfectly) is the right answer.
Faith is trust.
It implies knowing instead of believing.
Problem is, some won't ever know.
It implies knowing instead of believing.
Problem is, some won't ever know.
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jun 27 2008, 10:10 AM)
Faith is trust.
It implies knowing instead of believing.
It implies knowing instead of believing.
And there's the rub ,it is only believing
fullywired
QUOTE
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jun 27 2008, 10:10 AM)
Faith is trust.
It implies knowing instead of believing.
And there's the rub ,it is only believing
Faith is trust.
It implies knowing instead of believing.
And there's the rub ,it is only believing
"Only believing" can be such a powerful thing.
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jun 27 2008, 08:10 PM)
"Only believing" can be such a powerful thing.
That can be true. Our universe is so mysterious and impossible to conceive, our imagination is sometimes the farthest path we can take even if we don't know the complete truth in reality.
faith is accepting something as true even when theres no proof and still believing in it when something/someone challenges its existence/authenticity
QUOTE (Elite @ Jun 27 2008, 09:56 PM)
faith is accepting something as true even when theres no proof and still believing in it when something/someone challenges its existence/authenticity
Well actually, faith can change.
Really what I mean is that believing or faith is simply a part of being human.
We can scarcely get through the day without it, but we probably don't recognize it. Have you ever asked someone what time it was? Why would you disbelieve them if they told you? If you plan to watch a show on TV tonight (and don't have TiVo
), you are also operating on the faith that your cable or satellite will still work, your TV won't go on the blink, or you won't lose power. (Any of the above could happen, plus countless more things that might interrupt you, but you have faith that you'll be able to watch your show.)
Going deeper, you also have faith in people. Even animals. You trust your cat is going to come back home when you let him out, and you trust that your dog and kids will be waiting for you when you come home from work. You trust that your significant other won't abandon you. Even so, anything could happen, but that's not the focus. So faith is like a focusing.
We can scarcely get through the day without it, but we probably don't recognize it. Have you ever asked someone what time it was? Why would you disbelieve them if they told you? If you plan to watch a show on TV tonight (and don't have TiVo
), you are also operating on the faith that your cable or satellite will still work, your TV won't go on the blink, or you won't lose power. (Any of the above could happen, plus countless more things that might interrupt you, but you have faith that you'll be able to watch your show.)Going deeper, you also have faith in people. Even animals. You trust your cat is going to come back home when you let him out, and you trust that your dog and kids will be waiting for you when you come home from work. You trust that your significant other won't abandon you. Even so, anything could happen, but that's not the focus. So faith is like a focusing.
QUOTE
Well actually, faith can change.
Not nitpicking, but...
In religious or philosophical terms, I think principle of faith remains the same, but the focus of our faith can change. I've had this happen several times, for one reason or another. Faith still a basic human faculty IMO, just like its opposite, doubt.
But I'm sure we're talking about the same thing.
PS: I just know you can't make yourself have faith in anything that you're not ready to receive.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!
Faith is abdicating ego to a super-power, knowledge or idea or ideal.
QUOTE (someoldguy @ Jun 28 2008, 12:12 AM)
Not nitpicking, but...
In religious or philosophical terms, I think principle of faith remains the same, but the focus of our faith can change. I've had this happen several times, for one reason or another. Faith still a basic human faculty IMO, just like its opposite, doubt.
But I'm sure we're talking about the same thing.
PS: I just know you can't make yourself have faith in anything that you're not ready to receive.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!
In religious or philosophical terms, I think principle of faith remains the same, but the focus of our faith can change. I've had this happen several times, for one reason or another. Faith still a basic human faculty IMO, just like its opposite, doubt.
But I'm sure we're talking about the same thing.
PS: I just know you can't make yourself have faith in anything that you're not ready to receive.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!
Yes, but I meant the level of faith.
the faith is believing of the things that will happen to you in the future without an objection on it ..in islam you can't be a real muslim unless you believe in faith(the bad things and good things which happen to you)
let me give you an example ..
if something bad happen to you like you can't get a job or someone you love is dead ..you mustn't be angry and object on the decision of GOD ..because GOD want all the good things for us ...and the bad things which happen to us ...just like an examination from GOD to us to see if you success in this exam and still believe in the wisdom of GOD ..and be patient to deal with all these matters of life.......
let me give you an example ..
if something bad happen to you like you can't get a job or someone you love is dead ..you mustn't be angry and object on the decision of GOD ..because GOD want all the good things for us ...and the bad things which happen to us ...just like an examination from GOD to us to see if you success in this exam and still believe in the wisdom of GOD ..and be patient to deal with all these matters of life.......
QUOTE
Faith is abdicating ego to a super-power, knowledge or idea or ideal.
I like this alot. Faith is also the realization that we are not alone, that the world is bigger than us and our concerns, and that there are things unseen but every bit as real.
QUOTE (Clovis @ Jul 1 2008, 04:15 PM)
I like this alot. Faith is also the realization that we are not alone, that the world is bigger than us and our concerns, and that there are things unseen but every bit as real.
How can faith make you realize your not alone ? it might make you believe those things but that's all
fullywired
Oh but you lack faith so do not really know what it means...how can you ever know? If you ever were faithful it was quite limited since you only equate it with belief rather than understanding and action. There are also many things one can have faith in besides God. I am sure you discount faith in whatever or whoever it is applied to as much as others honor it.
faith is not fact. nor is belief without proof. so until then it is opinion. true for you possibly but not true overall without said proof.
I have faith that tomorrow morning will rise ............. yet there is always the chance , as improbable as it may seem , that it may not for a multitude of reasons. all natural.
that faith above is based on the fact of watching the sun rise every morning along with most of the world.
I have faith that tomorrow morning will rise ............. yet there is always the chance , as improbable as it may seem , that it may not for a multitude of reasons. all natural.
that faith above is based on the fact of watching the sun rise every morning along with most of the world.
Those who speak against faith and God do have faith in something. The usa federal Government. ok only those who live here do.
Faith is synonymous with Trust. Most of us use Faith everyday and don't realise it. When we go to work, if we catch a train, we put our Faith in the train system, that the train will run on time and get us to work. If we don't have a trustworthy rail system, we leave for work half-an-hour earlier to make sure that we get there on time.
When you turn the ignition on in your car, you have Faith that the motor will start, and will keep going and keep the wheels moving til you reach your destination. You also place Faith in the drivers around you, that they are competent and not drunk/unlicensed. If someone you see is driving side-to-side, or speeding, you lose your Faith in them and keep distance.
Those of us in relationships will have Faith taht the other person is trustworthy and loving back to you.
Faith is having trust in things you do. Trusting the train will be on time (or trusting it won't be on time). Trusting the car to start and keep going. Trusting your partner/spouse in matters of life. Sometimes this trust proves to be solid. At other times, the trust has been abused and you get hurt. Saying "I love you" to someone is perhaps the ultimate step of Faith anyone can take. What do you have to show that they are trustworthy other than their word? Many times a person is hurt because they put their Faith in someone enough to say "I love you", only to find that they did not feel the same.
I put my Faith (Trust) in God. "Believing" in God is not an issue for me. I have always known God exists. This is a solid fact for me. Granted it is not a scientific fact, but a fact nonetheless. Before becoming Chrisitan, I considered God to be too big to pidgeonhole into one single book or belief, and that all religions were just different ways people chose to express their knowledge of God. This led to a non-committal attitude towards God, which had no solid basis which changed my Life (ie, I did not trust this creator-being in any way). However, when I read the Bible, my view changed and I chose to Trust this God, and this Trust worked in a way to make me dedicate my life to him - That is Faith. I Trust God, because I believe what is said of him to be true.
Any comments people want to amke about Faith means believing without proof is true only to an extent. Remmeber, you don't know whether the train will come ontime to get you to work. You don't know if the chair you are sitting on is going to break. You don't know if the internet you are typing your post on is going to disconnect and force you to retype your whole post. You take it all on that "F" word - FAITH. Faith permeates every part of our life. Faith in God is no different for me. I have weighed up the options, looked what different gods have said about life, looked at how my experience of life has helped, looked at other relationships. And then I put my Trust in God. Whether this Trust/Faith is misplaced I will only know right at the end. But at the moment, nothign I have seen has led me ot compromise that Faith in God, and in fact has strengthened it!!!!!
When you turn the ignition on in your car, you have Faith that the motor will start, and will keep going and keep the wheels moving til you reach your destination. You also place Faith in the drivers around you, that they are competent and not drunk/unlicensed. If someone you see is driving side-to-side, or speeding, you lose your Faith in them and keep distance.
Those of us in relationships will have Faith taht the other person is trustworthy and loving back to you.
Faith is having trust in things you do. Trusting the train will be on time (or trusting it won't be on time). Trusting the car to start and keep going. Trusting your partner/spouse in matters of life. Sometimes this trust proves to be solid. At other times, the trust has been abused and you get hurt. Saying "I love you" to someone is perhaps the ultimate step of Faith anyone can take. What do you have to show that they are trustworthy other than their word? Many times a person is hurt because they put their Faith in someone enough to say "I love you", only to find that they did not feel the same.
I put my Faith (Trust) in God. "Believing" in God is not an issue for me. I have always known God exists. This is a solid fact for me. Granted it is not a scientific fact, but a fact nonetheless. Before becoming Chrisitan, I considered God to be too big to pidgeonhole into one single book or belief, and that all religions were just different ways people chose to express their knowledge of God. This led to a non-committal attitude towards God, which had no solid basis which changed my Life (ie, I did not trust this creator-being in any way). However, when I read the Bible, my view changed and I chose to Trust this God, and this Trust worked in a way to make me dedicate my life to him - That is Faith. I Trust God, because I believe what is said of him to be true.
Any comments people want to amke about Faith means believing without proof is true only to an extent. Remmeber, you don't know whether the train will come ontime to get you to work. You don't know if the chair you are sitting on is going to break. You don't know if the internet you are typing your post on is going to disconnect and force you to retype your whole post. You take it all on that "F" word - FAITH. Faith permeates every part of our life. Faith in God is no different for me. I have weighed up the options, looked what different gods have said about life, looked at how my experience of life has helped, looked at other relationships. And then I put my Trust in God. Whether this Trust/Faith is misplaced I will only know right at the end. But at the moment, nothign I have seen has led me ot compromise that Faith in God, and in fact has strengthened it!!!!!
QUOTE (Clovis @ Jul 1 2008, 04:27 PM)
Oh but you lack faith so do not really know what it means...how can you ever know? If you ever were faithful it was quite limited since you only equate it with belief rather than understanding and action. There are also many things one can have faith in besides God. I am sure you discount faith in whatever or whoever it is applied to as much as others honor it.
Oh I know what it means alright and I know what it doesn't mean ,it certanly doesn't mean what you trying to construe
fullywired
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