Hey guys.

I'm an atheist. I'd like to think I'm a good, moral person. I just don't believe in God. I was raised Christian, and but was never satisfied with it. In the words of Bertrand Russell, if I die and God does exist, and asks me why I didn't believe, I'll tell it how it is: "Not enough evidence God, not enough evidence".

So, the question is this:

If I, and all other atheists are in fact wrong, what will happen to our souls when we die? I haven't commited any horrible crime, I just don't believe. Will we be forgiven and accepted into heaven? Or be damned to hell?

Haha, you're going to hell.

I'll bring rum.

Of course we're damned to Hell....Im Jessica Alba's punishment...(she's not as sweet as she looks).

yea sorry mate. but it doesnt matter if ur a morally good person. its all to do with faith. the no evidence part is where u need the faith. all athiest with go to hell.

Well my fellow atheist, I heard on the grapevine it was a fiery lake, or occasionally a pit of beasts - where we shall gnash our teeth and wail for eternity.

Although it is very hip to say that it is now just a seperation from God, or you just die and don't get resurrected < the church has obviously got a better PR consultant lately. Or maybe just gone a bit soft.

I see where you are coming from, I am atheist also, and sometimes I wonder...

If god was real then I blame him for not making enough evidence. Think about this, what if a kid was raised not knowing who or what the word 'god' means, would they go to hell? YES according to the bible, you don't believe you are dammed for every just like that, no questions asked, even if you are a good person.

But then I stop wondering and realize, hello! It is so obvious that god is nothing more than in the human brain.
:]

i was such a hard out aithiest 5 months ago. now ive turned christian. the things ive experienced explained to me there was a god. its hard to explain.

But im not the kind of christian to say. hey your not a christian u have to become one or your going to hell. thats not the right way to go about it. everyone has there own opinion. if you dont believe, you believe what ever you want. if you truly want to know if there is a god or not you would go look for it and experience it yourself. if you dont want to know you go about ur buisness. lol

I'm not an atheist but I may end up going to hell for other reasons. I'll see you there - save a warm spot for me!

Just kidding. I think you'll probably be forgiven. After all, there are native people all over the world who have never heard of
our God of Western Civilization. Is God going to send these people to hell as well, for not believing in him?

just another reason why religion is pathetic. they give No Evidence towards they god they believe in. BUT, if you dont believe in what they do...you go to hell. just sad really

It's a pretty immoral decision to punish someone that horribly, for not being convinced that there is a God. And he's God, he KNOWS there is not enough evidence to support his existence in a reasnable manner. So, does he simply have a grudge o people who have logical, reasonable ways of going about life and determining fact from fiction? Is that really deserving of a torture in hell, or death (If you're alive when the "end" comes, he'll kill you)

You'll just get to party with all of us Pagans.

Punished for using our God-given reason.

Doesn't matter, if there is a hell I'll be in there with Bob Marley and Gandhi and John Lennon and Bill Hicks.

Hey, I already know Satan personally. Want a reserved cooler spot in hell? I can swing that. Want some high priced hookers you'd never be able to afford in life? I can get them for you too.

But it'll cost ya, you understand.

The offer's time limited so let me know soon. After all, I ain't got all eternity.

Everyone is going to go to hell eventually - the Grave (hades) is translated as "hell" in Greek. So unless you're cremated and scattered to teh breeze, everyone's going to go to hell. Ironic that the only way to avoid going to hell is to be put through a fiery furnace

There is no place after we die and Judged called "hell". I've looked at this quite thoroughly, it does not exist. There is the place called "heaven", and there is a fate awaiting those who are not going to heaven, but this place is not called "hell". No name is ever given to it, but it has been described as "destruction" in many places. Though since historically the early Catholic Church called it "hell" and based its characteristics on Dante's Inferno, that is the word we currently use to describe it, though the modern church has moved away from that fictional story of Dante.

As I see it, when the day of Judgement comes, there are two alternatives. A second and eternal Life, or a second and complete death. I certainly dont' think the Bible supports "hell" as a place of punishment and torture, and I do admit you can make an argument for eternal separation. But through my study, the most logical answer so far has been a second death (ie, become wormfood - just like many atheists believe in, and many take comfort in). I wont' go into too many details on specific verses (I'm sure no one would read them anyway), but suffice it to say, that is what awaits all those who have not been given the gift of eternal life (why is it called a "gift of eternal life" anyway, if we all have eternal life anyway and its' just a matter of whether it's spent in paradise or torture?????? the logical answer - we don't all have eternal life, elsewise it wouldn't be a gift).

~ PA

I thought Jesus taught bodily resurrection rather than a spiritual heaven?


Why not? Isn't it a later Christian teaching that we all have free will, which is a gift from God?

Not according to the Bible: those who die without hearing the Gospel will be judged on their deeds. The rest of us who have heard the Gospel but respectfully disagree... well, that's another story...

End Time prophecy has always been a contentious issue. We will be resurrected, whether that be physical or spiritual is highly contentious. Off the top of my head, I can't say exactly what Jesus taught on this. Perhaps it is so that we will be physically resurrected and then given spiritual bodies. Perhaps something else. As I said, it's a contentious issue

But then again, I don't believe in free will! Neither did many Christians until after the 18th Century and what became known as the "Age of Enlightenment".

When it comes to heaven and hell the opposite of heaven, I think also in opposites. The opposite to eternal life is not eternal suffering or eternal separation, but rather eternal death. That is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Hi TFG, most of the posts have been light-hearted, but I will try to post a Scripture-based answer.
Scriptures teach that a soul is the life of any creature, either man or beast, as per the following, for example:

Gen 1:21 And God created great sea-animals, and every living soul that creeps with which the waters swarmed after their kind; …

“soul” -- H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

TooFarGone – Since you were raised a Catholic, I would guess that your views about the “afterlife” would be pretty well based on the RC teachings. Am I correct?

The question that comes to my mind is: – how deeply have you compared the RC teachings about the “afterlife” with the Scriptures? Strange as it may sound, Scriptures contradict the RC and Protestant teachings about “life after death”.

It is important to understand that such a “soul” is simply the essence of life common to all living creatures. This life is not immortal; when the creature dies, that soul/life ceases to exist, and does not depart to some heaven, hell or purgatory.

That is the state of the majority of humans, so you are far from being alone in that respect.

Neither.

According to Scriptures, all human beings will remain dead and unaware of anything, until they are resurrected at one of a number of resurrections … Here is a description of the first resurrection:

1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless.
1Co 15:15 And we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified of God that He raised Christ; whom He did not raise if the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ is not raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then also those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

I’ll cease and desist at this point, so as not to make the post too involved.
By the way, keep in mind that the above is "the first" resurrection ... only people who died with the Spirit of God within them, and those living (who have the Spirit of God within them) will be raised at this resurrection.

Any further opinions?
Karlis

Well how much must your hear before you are judged to be able to make a fully cognisant decision? Hear just the word God, read the full Bible, a bit of a sermon?

Heh, yes, thorny one I've always read Jesus' words as being fairly unequivocally relating to bodily resurrection (which in my mind makes at least literary sense to tie in with his own resurrection, that of Lazarus, etc.); but then Jesus should probably have learnt by now that if he doesn't spell something out and make sure it's all written down and proof-read, we'll all decide on our own what he meant!


Ah, I see! What about the gift of life? Love?


Yes, I suppose if hell is the opposite of eternal life, then it would indeed be eternal death. Though I'm unsure whether the 'opposites' teaching is actually Biblical, is it?

But what about the opposite of eternal bliss? That would be eternal torment.

Or, thinking about it, perhaps the opposite of eternal bliss would be temporary torment...

Perhaps we all just get a smacked bottom?

Yes, it does rather beg that question doesn't it! What if you hear it from a particularly rubbish missionary who couldn't sell beer to alcoholics? What if you hear the whole Gospel, but then are hit by a truck before you have time to make your mind up?

I suppose God would make an executive decision in those cases.

There is no clear answer on that. For me it basically comes down to believing Romans 2 in that the followers of the Word will be judged by it and those who choose not to follow it will be judged by their own consciousness since the same law is already written on their hearts. In other words for me personally I know I would do many wicked things, things that would make me feel bad, hurt and use others, and that only God can lead me away from such. Now I doubt everyone is as wicked as me, or has the propensity to be, so maybe those people do not need God as I do. On the other hand consider the kingdom of God like America. Someone in another country does not need to follow the local laws here. Nor do they need to worry about them. But if they decide to immigrate then they do have to follow. Finally for a third metaphor, consider a Christian as being part of God's own service as an American can join their national services. Unlike regular citizens they are upheld to more rules and regulations. Not everyone has to join the service of God in this manner so not everyone will become Christians.

These are not at all perfect examples but rough ones given for the issue at hand.

And being a Christian has less to do with simply not wanting to sin, or simply wanting to go to heaven, as my examples might lead one to believe, instead it is about living life fully here on earth with the knowledge of an afterlife. We have to take the courses and do well before we can graduate but we do not have to view school as simply something we must endure to graduate. We have to run the race to finish it but running the race can be quite beautiful if we are in the right frame of the mind and so can be living on this earth. I want to live and to live fully and some people do not need Christianity for this. Some simply enjoy sin and well sin is fun, anyone who says it is not is lying, but I have also seen the results and consequences of sin play out in my very own life in the long term. Either way this is just a view from one imperfect Christian.

Possibly. I'd have to go back and read it thoroughly. Truth-be-told, since it's something that won't affect me until it actually happens, it's never really been something I've been greatly interested in. I've never had an obsession with "End Times", and the idea of Raptures, which I dont think is biblical either, mind you. I'm quite interested in reading all the different theories on it, and am always happy to debate the topic (I'm an amillenialist, myself), but since it doesn't directly affect the way I live my life, I've never been too worried.

Love just Is. We all have it, while one might call it a gift, I don't think it is, since it's something we all ahve the capacity for. I understand what you were trying to say now with your last statement on free will. Likewise, even if free will did exist, it would still not be a "gift" since it is something we all have. Neither free will (which is not mentioned in the Bible) nor Love is ever refrred to as a "gift". Eternal life, on the other hand, is constantly referred to as a gift from God.

I think it most certainly is biblical. Whenever any of the writers talk about heaven and the opposite of heaven, they refer to phrases such as "raised for glory or raised for destruction". Some examples:

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ~ Matthew 7:13

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" ~ Romans 9:22

"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things." ~ Phillipians 3:19

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" ~ 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly" ~ 2 Peter 3:7

It appears obvious to me that "destruction" is what all the writers intended, particularly 2 Thessalonians (they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction)

All the passages that refer to burning in fires of hell have been, in my experience, either 1- parables, 2- misunderstandings of concepts, or 3- misinterpretations of words. There are three words in Greek that are translated as "Hell". These are Hades, (which translates "the grave", or "hole in the ground"), Gehenna (which is a literal place, a Valley just outside of Jerusalem where people burned their rubbish and sometimes their dead - you can still visit this place today), and tartaros (this is mentioned only once in the entire New Testament, and it is a place of torture, but only Satan and his demons are ever mentioned as going to this place.

Then add to this Revelation 20 which refers to the "Lake of Fire", which clearly states: Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14). The passage specifically states "THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH". Not a "second place of eternal torture". Not a "second place of eternal separation from God". Simply "Second Death". *note how "hades" is also cast into the Lake of fire, and note that this time they have left the word untranslated - ask yourself why this might be?*

So we have four words, each with different definitions but all translated by many as being the same thing and taken by many Christians to be the same thing Once you look at a copy of the Bible in Greek and see the different words that are used to describe what we today think of as "hell", it really is quite ludicrous to think that they are all referring to the same thing.

Perhaps. But the Bible never refers to heaven as "eternal Bliss". I would be quite miffed if this were the case anyway. There's only so many times someone can enjoy something before it gets boring. Going around the most exciting roller-coaster ever created can only be so much fun before it gets boring. And we have eternity fill up with what would essentially be "fun" (bliss). What awaits is "eternal glory". Now truthfully, I don't know what that exactly entails. I don't know what's in store for us. No one does. We will have new spiritual bodies, so we can't think of it in human terms as being "blissful", or "fun", or even hell (if it existed) as "painful and torturous", because we will be new creations created in a New Creation.

Thanks for the reply, Nucular. All the best,

naw I'm shooting for 'eternal bliss' . no need to get bored . that's a human thinking drag.

Wow your God is just not very nice is he.

I don't want to be one who condemns, but what do you think? If I knocked on your door and said, "TooFarGone, I'm a good person. You SHOULD let me into your house." Would you? For what reason? You don't know me! I could appear to be a good person, but then I could come in and slay you and your whole family. You couldn't see my heart, you had no idea what I was inclined to do.

I think the thing here is that in America, we refine the word Christian to mean 'a good person'. But we already have the language for a 'good person.' So we don't need the word Christian to replace it. Being a Christian is about Christ, not about being good.

So, you will not be rejected because you are not a good person. You be rejected because you rejected Christ. For, we are only as good as we compare ourselves to others. But what is the standard? I dare to say that only Jesus met that standard. That is why it is so necessary for us to accept Him.


Me and the Bible study group were discussing why God doesn't intervene in a lot of things. The issue boiled down to the fact that, we as humanity cause most of the problems. We set the conditions that allow bad things happen; all of us. So if God were to truly intervene, it would be the end of us all. Some people only see on the surface of things. I think God had rathered that humanity had a change of heart. That is why He sent Jesus Christ to meet that standard, change our hearts, and make in us a new creation. That is the loving, merciful, and kind intervention that many never noticed came from God. They want the pain and suffering to stop right now, but they don't want to stop the cause. Do you think that maybe they feel guilty of supporting that cause?

This is true me and my wife were discussing this the other day. In some cases, even in our own persona lived, or as far as the national level though, God can and does intervene. So it was with Jonah. So it was with Pharaoh, and even as Pharaoh hardened his own heart, God hardened it at the same time, allowed it to happen, so by not giving in to the Israelites wishes to be set free, the signs from God were shown, so all the world at that time could see this small people were able to stand up to Egyptian might because of their Lord. Any Pharaoh would have done the same though maybe. Would GW Bush listen to a small ethnic group today in America demanding sovereignty or something other? But God could see all the generations and how they would come to be, God could see and perhaps even pushed the enveloped a little, twenty generations before Pharaoh was born, to insure two of his ancestors would glance at each other, meet, marry, and allow Pharaoh to be born twenty generations later. Just using that as an example.

But most non-believers and even believers will fail to see the point you have made or me. Though I do agree most of the time God does not interfere, and most of the time if we suffer, we have allowed it, in the case of Job, Job was good but his family was not, so when Satan asked God, God said you can take away his family, his land, but you cannot touch a hair on his head, but the reason for this IMHO is that Job's family, though being wicked, were under Job's care and that is why Satan needed permission even to harm them, but without Job, they would have already given Satan this permission themselves, through their own wickedness and refusal to turn to God.

Isn't your God supposed to be all loving and all forgiving though? Surely sending people to hell is nothing more than petty vindictiveness. Especially as that is where the majority of the planet would go.

The truth is, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS!

Most non-Catholic Chrisitians, epecially the wacko ones, believe Atheists literally go to a place deep inside the Earth and burn...

OF course, according to the Crazier Christians, EVERBODY who isn't Christian(In many Cases, 'Christian' even excludes Catholics) is going to hell.

You see, they've got to have a monopoly. If you got to heaven by being good, that wouldn't work out too well for them...
No. You MUST get to heaven by paying the church money, by going to services, by doing what they say, by hating others, and so forth.

If you could get to heaven by being good, then the church is out of a Job!

For me, Atheism/Agnosticism just works out fine. There are only 3 really possible scenarios:
A. No nothin'. We just die. We've spent an enternity conscious-less before we were born, so it can't be too hard...
B. There is a good deity. He has some kind of reward place(heaven), and you go there depending on how good a person you were.
C. There is an arrogant, stuckup, git as a deity. He lets only 1 religion come in. If you ask me, I'd rather be in hell then such a stupid place. At least I'd be in hell knowing that I made the right choice...

Actually, there are many other scenarios(ghosts, etc.) that are equally likely. None of them seem too bad, though.(Being a ghost would be FUN!)

So, the afterlife is pretty much going to work out for me. There is no real reason to fear death, unless you have a goal unaccomplished.


Cheers,
SQLserver

Heh, raising the stakes against Pascal are we? I knew he was bluffing!

ETA: what about the possibility that when C comes to pass, God explains to you using His divine logic what the issues were, checkmating your fallible human logic, and you go to Hell knowing that you totally messed up?

Spot on, in my opinion Bluefinger,
As I see it from the Scriptures, God did indeed set the stage so that, "We set the conditions that allow bad things happen; all of us. ..."

As I see it, when God created humans, God placed Mankind into a situation where we experience every consequence of human actions.

God placed humanity into a situation where Mankind was to chose to do what is right in their own eyes; and we reap what humanity sowed -- child molestation, rape, murder, genocide ... love, affection, charity: all in a mixed-up world of both good and evil.

Those who rant against God say that God is evil and sadistic in doing this. They disregard that the results are due to Man's choices. They claim God should not have given Mankind choices ... yet in the same breath they demand free choice.

Why does God allow Mankind to go their own way and reap the consequences?
In my opinion, so that when unrepentant humans are resurrected to mortal, physical life ... they will be able to learn from their past mistakes not to repeat what they did before.
* If they learn the right lessons, they will have the opportunity to be resurrected as spirit-born children of God, then.
* If they choose not to learn, they will be consigned to a swift, painless second and permanent death.

Well, these are my thoughts, and I think I can support them from Scriptures.
What do others think?

I agree -- but that change will not be brought about until after the second resurrection, in people who are now against God in their present lives.

Well, in a way I must agree with you, but I think perhapsyou missed seeing *all the reasons* why Jesus came.

As I see it, Jesus came:
* to pay the penalty of sin on our behalf; which means "salvation"; as in "being saved from eternal death".
* to show us that there is immortality available for humanity, in the form of being born again as literal children of God.
* to bring an end to the power of death over life.
* to reconcile all creation to God.
* plus more ...

Regards,
Karlis

Going to church and giving them money doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to maccas and paying them money makes you a Cheeseburger. Ever considered that

I see what you're saying, and I'm sure there are churches out there that try and get this point across, but to look solely at these would be a very jaded and one-sided view. Largely, Christianity as I have experienced it (and from my conversations with other Christians on these boards), is based on a personal relationship with Christ, not on going to certain denominational meetings and paying them money. For me, going to church means meeting up with other people who believe similar things as I do. And yes, I give a small amount of my money to them (still being a student with only a small income, I don't give a great deal, but it's what I can afford). But I don't do this because the Church says "if you don't you're going to hell". That's a load of crap, and if my church ever said that, I'd leave. I give money as what the Bible would call a "freewill offering", because I think the organisation could use it to 1- pay for the upkeep of the building (rates, repairs, etc), 2- pay for those who work at the church, 3- fund outside projects (people doing Missionary work overseas, for example), and 4- help raise money for various charitable events.

As I said right at the beginning, I see what you're saying, but if you are using this as the basis of what Chrsitianity is all about, I'm just here to tell you my experience has been completely different to yours.

All the best,

At least in the South/West USA that is just about what Christianity is about. Perhaps the money part is overemphasized.

I have no problem with personal relationships with Christ.

The thing is, why do Christians try so hard to make that relationship involve everybody?

...and the road to perdition is paved with christians like Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Baker...throw in pedophiles like Jeffs, and catholic priests... Yes, the road to hell is a long and winding one, with nary an atheist to be seen.

Atheists will not go to hell because

An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now--here on earth--for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist knows that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find within himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist knows that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
"An Atheist seeks to know himself then and his fellow rather than to know a god. An Atheist understands that a hospital must be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand, love and accept all of mankind. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god, channel action into prayer, or hope for an end to our troubles in a hereafter. He knows that we are not only our brother's keepers--but keepers of our own lives foremost, that we are responsible persons and that the job is here and the time is now."
-- Murray vs. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

In Judaism, your personality/actions are what is judged. Not necessarily what you believe. Granted, everyone goes to a place called (Gehenom) and then on to Olam Haba (The world to come/heaven).

It would seem unruly. However, Hell was only thought of as the grave until the Greeks entered the Jewish world. At that time there were two words that the Latins today use for Hell, and that was Sheol (the Grave; Hades) and Gehenna (The Lake of Fire.) Sheol is the resting place of the dead. Those who do not enter heaven enter the Lake of Fire; or the Second Death. Therefore, the New Testament Hell, when translated into Latin didn't distinguish between Sheol and Gehenna. What its basically saying is that if you reject the Life-Giver, you reject eternal life. Therefore you die. Its permanent death, not eternal torture.

So, do people deserve to go to Hell for rejecting the Savior? Every action results in a reaction. Every choice has a consequence. Thus, they choose Hell, not God. If you think the Almighty King is going to let you into His house, though you be a stranger to Him, then I think you are mistaken. He wants to know you. If you don't open up your entire existence up to Him, how can He?

so everyone one other than pure Christians are going to hell....thats nice

but what if Zeus was god...I guess we'd all go to hell then eh

What is it about Jesus Christ that is so unappealing that you'd rather choose hell?

It is not about Jesus Christ and him being appealing or not. I could tell you to believe that an invisible giant sweet bunny would grant you a glorious eternal life, if you just believed in him and devoted your life to his teachings.

Could you just choose to believe that?

Some very intelligent debate, and i dont need to put my view, as it has ben expressed by others, including PA and karlis.The debate is irrelevant unless you are a christian, Then it is important to know what the bibile actually teaches, rather than take others words for it, but it is even more important to be right with god in your heart. God judges the hearts intent.

That's why people who have never heard of him may get to heaven, or not, on the nature of their heart (in modern terms we might use mind, but heart still has special connotations, about where our emotions come from, and love is an emotion, and love is the greatest requirement of god.)
It is why little children are not judged, beause their hearts/ minds are not capable of making an educated free will decision. THe same would be true of severely intellectually disabled people. They can't sin because they can't form the intention to sin, with any recognition of what sin is, or what alternative choices there are.

All the effects of original sin which everyone(even children )carry as a birthright are washed away/covered by the blood( use one of a number of biblical symbols) of christ's sacrifice,

Now, only a conscious decision to turn away from god (and thus to continue sinning) will result in the second and final death as opposed to eternal life (by my biblical understanding not in heaven at all but on the earth which has been cleansed by fire and then returned to an edenic state.
Saved humanity will take up precisely where they left off, once again in a sin free state, in eden, with immortal and incorrupible bodies, The earth will be in an edenic state again, with no death or corruption, no meat eating etc( the lamb will lay down with the lion)

We will resume an ongoing communion with god and the rest of the heavens which was cut off when earth was interdicted to stop the spread of sin to other planets. We will resume the spiritual education god abandoned when we chose material, rather than spiritual knowledge, and we will resume our role as stewards of the earth, and all things on it , but with a more mature and spiritually wise approach. .

Hey guys.

I'm an atheist. I'd like to think I'm a good, moral person. I just don't believe in God. I was raised Christian, and but was never satisfied with it. In the words of Bertrand Russell, if I die and God does exist, and asks me why I didn't believe, I'll tell it how it is: "Not enough evidence God, not enough evidence".

So, the question is this:

If I, and all other atheists are in fact wrong, what will happen to our souls when we die? I haven't commited any horrible crime, I just don't believe. Will we be forgiven and accepted into heaven? Or be damned to hell?


According to the divine comedy you are sent to hell.

You are not to be subjected to the worst tortures unless you have done evil acts but you're still spending eternity there. Perhaps the occasional red hot poker or something I dont know.

This just about covers it for me. Nice post.

The way I see it, if I am wrong and there is a god of some sort I will have to deal with it accordingly. If it really is a kind loving god that created us, cares for us and is able to offer us some sort of eternal afterlife (perhaps not a "paradise") then one would think this god is rational, logical and understanding. They could look at the hands life dealt me and how I played them out. I lived my life. I helped others to the point of fault. I did all that I could and then some. At any time I aspired to become more than I was. I loved my family, friends, wife and kids. I raised my children by the best means I could and gave them all that I could. I lived a good, simple, peaceful life not because of an ancient rulebook promising me anything or telling me anything about some higher being. I did it because it felt right, seemed to be the right thing to do, worked for me and reflected the way I would want to be treated by others among other things.

One would think a god would understand this and look favorably upon it.......

Kevin A.

The part about there being a hell.

Why is there a hell? How is it that something as mundane as believing the wrong thing can merit you ETERNAL punishment? Isn't that a little ridiculous, especially considering how, for many people, God is a slippery SOB, considering the lack of evidence. They say 'oh, all you have to do is HAVE FAITH'... it doesn't logically follow that not believing in the big guy in the sky who has no evidence in his favor automatically merits an eternity of damnation. Now thats called illogical, right there.

I believe in God, I just think that this "Pauline Christianity" that we've been following for about 2000 years is a little fishy....

And if you're wrong...?

Did this pink bunny rabbit die for my salvation? Can this pink bunny rabbit manifest itself in any form and not be held down by physical limitations? Can this pink bunny rabbit transend all comprehension and be the everything that we need? Its not that you're not open minded about this issue, but it appears that you are asking the wrong questions. By giving a physical descriptions to your made up deity, you unknowingly place limitations on it. I'm not going to trust that.

Then an all powerful, all knowing, and benevolent God will probably understand my reasons for not believing in everything that Christianity says. Even if we take the Christian dogmatic view of Heaven/hell, its not a black and white thing. I think that there is a lot of gray area that surely an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God would understand.

Of course if I am truly wrong I'm going to be reallllllly hot for a reallllllly long time, so I think I'll bring a Jack and Coke to make it a little more tolerable

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent God need to die for your salvation? Thats the part I still don't get.

I love the logic of that. Here is a god that claims to love its creations in a way more perfectly than any human being can love another human being; love agape. Yet with this perfect love some horribly psychotic conditions are thrown onto it; believe in something you cant see, hear, taste, smell, or feel or you will burn and be tortured in hell for eternity...For sins that occured over a finite time. Because of the curiosity and scientific mind that god gave you, that makes you skeptical of such things, even though you are otherwise a good person by all other standards. that makes perfect sense...

Even the most flawed rational human being wouldnt send their worst enemy to this place of eternal damnation, let alone someone that they loved; and god seems to be willing to let his most loved creations go for the simplest sins. So there is a definite flaw in the logic and "free will" doesnt cover it. prosecution on Free Will implies full knowledge of the situatuon and humans do not have access to that, to send someone to hell for lack of confirmation or belief in something would be a rather disgusting thing to do...or it could simply be that the concepts are all pumped up for the purposes of scaring people into the churches and loosening the purse strings.

A religion based in fear. Something I'd rather not be a part of. Its all about the power over the people and the ability to control massive amounts of people and their money. A Man made myth based on a kernel of truth exploited to scare people into doing as others wished.

And to be honest if heaven is full of the self rightious, sanctimonious, televangelists and uptight folks you see on TV (and around here) and the like are going to end up, do you really want to be there anyway? Do you really want an eternity of THAT?

I think you missed the figurative language in much of the Bible. Things were artistically drawn out in a poetic way to emphasize the significance of the events and God's desire for Israel to prosper.

Your body, with the breath of life breathed in by God, is the soul. You will die. And if you reject Jesus, you will not enter into Heaven. Entering Heaven is not about who was good enough. Entering Heaven is about who Jesus knew inside and out. God had opened Himself up to you, but (judging by your reply) I strongly doubt that you have.

Bertrand Russel never wanted to accept that demanding empirical evidence of a transendant being was a contradictory statement. Man cannot be everything that he wants to be, and thus has limitations. If we could describe God physically, lay hold of him, and study him, then that means that God has limits. If He can do no more than be what we want Him to be, then it useless to even worry about. If you want proof, you may just have to test it. Like they say, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."